"john johnson" wrote in message
u...


Firstly, size doesn't matter, it was everywhere at one time, and
ignoramus's original post did not mention if the transformer was dry or
not.

I've heard OLD veteran teachers say they think there's something in the
water - people no longer have reading comprehension skills. Luckily, you and
two others here seem to escaped this fate.

"Gymy Bob" wrote in message
...
All minor ailments and no deaths have ever been attributed to it.

Thank you. Keep scratching. Be happy. Go back to sleep.

"JerryMouse" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some
guy "salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer
safe to eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside
that transformer of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your
state's environmental conservation department, or local department of
solid waste could assist in finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

But the GUY who disassembled the transformers is okay, right?

Maybe there's PCBs. Maybe not. If there are PCBs, there might be enough to
be detectable. If so, diluted 1-trillion-to-one in a nearby pond might be
sufficient to give one fish a headache.

Bah! Who cares?


Actually, I'd like to know WHO the guy was, not how he is. Please provide a
way of contacting him, since you seem to be privy to all the information
surrounding this event.

"TURTLE" wrote in message
...


This is Turtle.

This must be Turtle!


i , first before starting to take apart this transformer contact your
Medical insurance company and add on a Cancer Policy for you and the
family members for your may need it if you spill any of this liquid at
your house or on you.

Turtle, you're about 8 hours too late. Read the rest of the posts. :-)

Gymy Bob wrote:
There is no liquid in a "dry-type" transforemt and therefore no PCBs

PCB were only used in large transformers full of cooling oil for
usage
indoors because of the flammablity rating of the PCB oils.

Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related
to
PCBs?

From
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/inter...gr-71897e.html

"Unfortunately, Japan's PCB history is tinged with tragedy. In 1968, an
accidental mixing of PCB with rice oil affected 14,000 people and
resulted in 300 deaths."

wrote in message
news
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 20:02:00 GMT, (Harry
Chickpea) wrote:

"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since
it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

Nope. The chemicals were there to facilitate heat transfer,
especially in larger grid transformers. Needless to say,
non-conductive liquids with a high boiling point are required for the
task.

http://www.ehso.com/EHSO_PCB.htm

Characteristics and Uses of PCBs

PCBs belong to a family of organic compounds known as chlorinated
hydrocarbons. Key characteristics include: high boiling point, high
degree of chemical stability, low flammability, and low electric
conductivity. Between 1926-29 and 1977, PCB-containing products were
manufactured for use in applications where stable, fire-resistant,
heat-transfer properties were demanded. The most extensive use of PCBs
occurred in dielectric fluids. Such fluids typically have the
following characteristics: a heavy oil appearance, high boiling point,
high chemical stability, high flash point, low electrical
conductivity, and low water solubility. PCBs were also used as
plasticizers and additives in lubricating and cutting fluids. Most
PCBs were sold for use as dielectric fluids (insulating liquids) in
electric transformers and capacitors. Other uses included heat
transfer fluid, hydraulic fluid, dye carriers in carbonless copy
paper, plasticizers in paints, adhesives, and caulking compounds, and
filters in investment casting wax. Although PCBs are no longer
commercially made in the United States, many electric transformers and
capacitors once filled with PCBs are still in service. Additionally,
PCBs currently are being inadvertently produced as byproducts during
the manufacture of certain organic chemicals. PCB Manufacturers and
Trade Names lists some of the manufacturers, who made PCBs and the
trade names of their products.

Why Are PCBs Harmful to Human Health and the Environment
When released into the environment, PCBs do not easily break apart and
form new chemical arrangements (i.e., they are not readily
biodegradable). Instead they persist for many years, bioaccumulate,
and bioconcentrate in organisms. Well documented tests on laboratory
animals show that various levels of PCBs cause reproductive effects,
gastric disorders, skin lesions, and cancerous tumors. Exposure to
PCBs in humans can cause chloracne (a painful, disfiguring skin
ailment), liver damage, nausea, dizziness, eye irritation, and
bronchitis.

While this is basically correct, I suspect it is somewhat out of date.
IIRC, electrical equipment containing PCBs had to be replaced by a
certain date, so there should be no transformers or other equipment
still in service in the US containing PCBs.

There were a lot of flourescent ballasts that contained PCB's, and a lot of
old shelf stock around. Some of them are undoubtedly still in service. There
are still some very old utility transformers in service that contain PCB's.

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 02:16:27 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"john johnson" wrote in message
. au...


Firstly, size doesn't matter,

Well, no. Size DOES matter when it comes to PCBs in transformers. It
was only used in large or specialized equipment.

it was everywhere at one time,

Not in transformers, it wasn't.

and ignoramus's original post did not mention if the transformer was dry or
not.

The OP made it pretty obvious it was not a sealed transformer. That
means no oil, so no problem.

If you aren't sure, the thing to do is ask, not go flying off.

I've heard OLD veteran teachers say they think there's something in the
water - people no longer have reading comprehension skills. Luckily, you and
two others here seem to escaped this fate.

That's debatable.

Okay, all that said -- for you paranoids out there there is another
source of PCBs that _was_ commonly used in the home: Capacitors,
especially the capacitors used in electric light ballasts. Those _did_
have PCBs in them at one time. So if you're got some 30-year-old
flourescent lights hanging around you might want to take a minute to
check the ballasts. If they don't have PCBs they will say so.

--RC


"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 17:25:08 -0700, DJ wrote:

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:34:29 -0500, "Gymy Bob"
wrote:

All minor ailments and no deaths have ever been attributed to it.
snip

You may consider it a "minor ailment", but have you seen the photos of
that Ruskie politician who was purportedly poisoned with dioxin? A
year ago he looked about like baby faced John Edwards, now he looks
more like a puffy faced, acne ridden Andy Rooney...

DJ

Agreed. I wouldn't call the damage PCBs in quantity can do 'minor' at
all. And, as someone else pointed out, eating PCB laced oil can kill
you (although I suspect the oil itself would kill you before the PCBs
got you.) But that's a far cry from contamination in water, etc.

--RC

"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:55:33 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some
guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe
to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could
assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the
PCBs?

Jon


Question 1: Doesn't matter. I have no intention of disassembling them.

If you had transformers with PCBs in them, it most definitely _would_
matter. Under certain conditions transformers will dissassemble
themselves in a rather spectacular fashion. And believe me, you would
_not_ want to live in a house where that had happened -- even if the
authorities would let you stay on.


Question 2: Probably none, but none of the transformers in my home are
older
than 3-4 years,

Immaterial. Even if they were 50 years old the transformers you'd find
in a home would not have PCBs in them. PCBs were only used in large or
highly specialized electrical equipment.

Bull****. They were used in flourescent ballasts.
"Poly Chlorinated Biphenyls (PCBs) were banned in 1979 from being used in
ballasts because it is a suspected human carcinogen. However, there are
still many ballasts and transformers around from before that time period.
Carefully check the ballasts that have been removed from your fixtures, they
should say on them that they are PCB free if they were manufactured after
1979. If the ballast does not say this, you must assume that it contains
PCBs.



Di (d-ethylhexyl) phthalate (DEHP) was used as a substitute for PCBs in
ballasts for 5 to 10 years. It is a U028 listed waste. Once DEHP is used in
a ballast, it no longer meets the definition of hazardous waste.



Non-leaking ballasts with PCBs can be sent to the local landfill if the
landfill will accept them. Contact your local landfill to find out. The
Federal Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA) regulates PCB containing
ballasts. If the PCB ballasts are not leaking, the EPA and State of New
Mexico still recommend high-temperature incineration, recycling, or a
chemical or hazardous waste landfill. CERCLA requires building owners and
waste generators to notify the National Response Center at

1-800-424-8802 when disposing of a pound or more of PCBs (approximately
12-16 fluorescent ballasts).



If the PCB ballast is leaking, it must be incinerated at an EPA approved
high temperature incinerator. It is important to use trained personnel or
contractors to handle and dispose of leaking PCB ballasts. 40 CFR 268.42
requires that PCB waste over 50 ppm be incinerated in boilers that meet the
requirements listed in that regulation.

PCB wastes are exempt from regulation under RCRA Parts 261 through 265, and
Parts 268, 270, and 124 and from the notification requirements of Section
3010 (40 CFR 261.8). The land disposal restrictions allow for PCB
containerized liquid waste disposal at a hazardous waste landfill that has
received the exemption from EPA for wastes with concentrations between 50
ppm and 500 ppm (40 CFR 268.5 (h)(vi)).



To accumulate hazardous waste as necessary to facilitate proper recovery,
treatment or disposal, liquid PCB waste at concentrations greater than or
equal to 50 ppm must be stored at a facility that meets the requirements of
40 CFR 761.65 (b) and must be removed from storage and treated or disposed
within one year (40 CFR 268.50 (f)).



CESQGs, SQGs, and LQGs must follow all the previously mentioned regulations.



The Hazardous Waste Bureau wishes to assist the regulated community in
complying with all applicable regulations. Please contact the Technical
Assistance and Compliance Section of the HWB for further assistance and
information. The contact telephone number is 1-505-428-2500 or toll free at

1-866-428-6535. This assistance will provide information to the business
owner, free of fines and penalties and with a six-month amnesty from the
enforcement section, free of charge."

www.nmenv.state.nm.us/hwb/data/Fact%20Sheets/
FACT%20SHEET%20FOR%20FLOURESCENT%20BULBS%20AND%20B ALLASTS.doc -

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 02:19:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

You believe he stated that? Go back & read it again. For those of us not
familiar with transformers in general, there is no clue as to whether it
contained liquid.

Those of you not familar with transformers in general might either not
comment at all or ask a gently phrased question.

--RC


"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:13:03 -0600, "JerryMouse"
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some
guy "salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer
safe to eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside
that transformer of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your
state's environmental conservation department, or local department of
solid waste could assist in finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

But the GUY who disassembled the transformers is okay, right?

If his neighbors didn't string him up for ruining the lake, probably.

BTW: PCBs also cause skin conditions. It's not just the dioxin they
might produce. And in reasonable exposures, such as you'd get from
messing with the PCB-laced oil in a transformer, they can cause liver
damage and other nasties.


Maybe there's PCBs. Maybe not. If there are PCBs, there might be enough to
be detectable. If so, diluted 1-trillion-to-one in a nearby pond might be
sufficient to give one fish a headache.

Bah! Who cares?

A lot of people. And for very good reasons. PCBs are poster children
for bio-concentrators. You can argue about whether the safety levels
are appropriate in light of the more recent evidence about the
apparent lack of cancer-causing activity in humans, but common sense
says this is nothing you want in the environment.

Just because this stuff apparently isn't as bad as some people like to
make it out to be doesn't mean it's not dangerous.

--RC


"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

"Gymy Bob" wrote in message
...
Hey moron! The copper is considered "mixed" copper and is worth about
$0.02
per pound, if he seperates it all.

IOW: they don't want it.

Wrong! It's worth over $1/lb, and any recycler will gladly accept it.

Harold

Ok, you seem to have made the right decision. I am trying to remember
what the transformer looks like. Is it a toroid or a regular
rectangular shape. I think the transformer on my big unit is a toroid.
I don't know what the core material is. Could be ferrite. I know there
was a bunch of tapped windings.

Are you in an area where you could throw it on a trash fire and burn
out all the insulation. Then you could see what is there. I used to do
this when I lived in Portland, OR and had a wood furnace. Still have
some BIG copper strap from a burned out transformer.

Paul

"ATP" wrote in message
...
snip-----

There were a lot of flourescent ballasts that contained PCB's, and a lot
of
old shelf stock around. Some of them are undoubtedly still in service.
There
are still some very old utility transformers in service that contain
PCB's.

If memory serves, oil in transformers can be exchanged and the transformer
cleaned such that if the PCB level is 50 PPM they can still be used. Not
all equipment was replaced as a result, although the vast majority of the
PCB's have been replaced.

Harold

Ignoramus22732 wrote:

How about these huge capacitors from the demolished UPS?

See

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/capacitors/

The cup is pictured for size comparison.

Are they 4.1 farad each or they are 4.1 millifarad?

The 'm' is a leftover from the olden days, when it meant 'micro', not the
metric standard 'milli'. Milli is not used in capacitor rating. Pico, micro
then Farads. New capacitors would be probably marked with the 'u' instead of 'm'

So, they are 4100 microfarad capacitors


They are rated for

300V. Are there PCB in them?

I don't know. Maybe Tantalum or Aluminium oxide?

http://www.radio-electronics.com/inf...itor_types.php


These guys found an interesting use for them:

http://www.4hv.org/archive/topic.22395.html



mike

--
He was the sort of person who stood on mountaintops during thunderstorms in
wet copper armour shouting "All the Gods are *******s."

Terry Pratchett

If they are a metal can type they are most likely full of PCB oil unless
stated otherwise on the metal cans.

I doubt they are 4 farads. More likely 4 microfarads uf.

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
Okay, all that said -- for you paranoids out there there is another
source of PCBs that _was_ commonly used in the home: Capacitors,
especially the capacitors used in electric light ballasts. Those _did_
have PCBs in them at one time. So if you're got some 30-year-old
flourescent lights hanging around you might want to take a minute to
check the ballasts. If they don't have PCBs they will say so.

How about these huge capacitors from the demolished UPS?

See

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/capacitors/

The cup is pictured for size comparison.

Are they 4.1 farad each or they are 4.1 millifarad? They are rated for
300V. Are there PCB in them?

i

LOL...good luck with that one! We scrap surplus copper everyday in my
business.

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Gymy Bob" wrote in message
...
Hey moron! The copper is considered "mixed" copper and is worth about
$0.02
per pound, if he seperates it all.

IOW: they don't want it.

Wrong! It's worth over $1/lb, and any recycler will gladly accept it.

Harold

Gee wonder what a 8KW UPS is worth?

Probably more than you would get for it's parts at a scrapyard.

Just paid $120 for a 3KW and $100 for a 2.2KW APC rack mount units.
Batteries were bad and sold as such.

Eight new batteries were just over $200 delivered.

Both units are up and running 24 / 7, one at our retail shop and one at our
home both supporting a phone system and two Novell servers each.

Hugh



"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i

Ignoramus22732 wrote:

Are they 4.1 farad each or they are 4.1 millifarad? They are rated for
300V. Are there PCB in them?



The historical aspect of this just HAS to be remembered.

=================================================
Only metric prefixes for 10+6 or more have an upper-case abbreviation (e.g.,
M = 10+6, G = 10+9, etc.). In particular, note that the prefix m indicates
10-3 and M indicates 10+6. The difference between an upper-case M and a
lower-case m is nine orders of magnitude! One should be warned that American
manufacturers of capacitors often use "mF" or "MF" to indicate microfarads,
a practice that is both incorrect and misleading.

http://www.rbs0.com/tw.htm
=================================================



mike

wrote:

Are you in an area where you could throw it on a trash fire and burn
out all the insulation. Then you could see what is there. I used to do
this when I lived in Portland, OR and had a wood furnace. Still have
some BIG copper strap from a burned out transformer.


A lot of that stuff is very carcinogenic when burned. The plastic coating on
much of the wire causes great danger to living things when burned. Egg
shells become very thin when the bird has been exposed to the burnt
chemicals, so they break during nesting.

Please don't burn insulated wire or plastic. It's disgusting stuff AND now
illegal in many places.



mike

--
He was the sort of person who stood on mountaintops during thunderstorms in
wet copper armour shouting "All the Gods are *******s."

Terry Pratchett

Ignoramus22732 wrote:

Gymy Bob wrote:

Can't this tranformer be used by somebody to generate a second 120V from a
single phase 120V inverter? It sounds pretty beefy.


It has a lot of connectors. I ppulled another, isolation looking
transformer (1:1) from the unit, will probably sell that.

This one looks like a multi voltage unit.

I spent a multitude of hours as a kid taking stuff apart, including
small transformers. (Dry types)
Transformers are one of the least fun things to tear into.

With the size of the copper wire you say it has, it must have a high-amp
output. Is it stepup or stepdown? If stepdown, it could possibly make a
great custom arc or spot welder, or an electroplating supply.

Ken Grunke

Ignoramus22732 wrote:

I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i
Is a three phase unit ? - might be a great unit for two phase to three phase
need or Wye to Delta or voltage to voltage work.

I used to use big ones on machines I wroked and designed on - wish I had one
for just that.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Ignoramus22732 wrote:
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:20:58 GMT, Doug Kanter wrote:

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...

I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by
some guy "salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no
longer safe to eat. You may want to investigate further what may be
inside that transformer of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps
your state's environmental conservation department, or local
department of solid waste could assist in finding out more. Or, the
manufacturer.


Thanks.

Hm, all that is inside this transformer is steel, copper, varnish, and
paper. Maybe you are referring to hyooge transformers filled with
liquids? In any case, I will appreciate input regarding this issue, as
I do not want to run afoul of the laws.

i
Yes the PCB problem is related to oil filled transformers.
if you can ID it you should be able to get the specs from
the manufacturer to determine if it is oil filled or dry
(maybe you already know). If it is dry then no problem. If
oil filled and has PCB, make UPS take it back since they
shouldn't have given or sold it to you.

Jon Danniken wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that

transformer

of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could assist

in

finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.


How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the PCBs?

Jon


I'm not Doug, but oil is used in larger transformer for
cooling. PCBs were added to improve heat transfer. I have
no idea what the smallest size of oil filled transformers
are but larger ones are way bigger than 200 pounds. 8KVA
may be a little small for an oil filled transformer.

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
Okay, all that said -- for you paranoids out there there is another
source of PCBs that _was_ commonly used in the home: Capacitors,
especially the capacitors used in electric light ballasts. Those _did_
have PCBs in them at one time. So if you're got some 30-year-old
flourescent lights hanging around you might want to take a minute to
check the ballasts. If they don't have PCBs they will say so.

How about these huge capacitors from the demolished UPS?

See

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/capacitors/

The cup is pictured for size comparison.

Are they 4.1 farad each or they are 4.1 millifarad? They are rated for
300V. Are there PCB in them?

These seem to be electrolytic capacitors rather than the oil filled type --
no PCBs.

ATP wrote:

There were a lot of flourescent ballasts that contained PCB's, and a
lot of old shelf stock around. Some of them are undoubtedly still in
service. There are still some very old utility transformers in
service that contain PCB's.

Yup. The Municipality I used to work for had a whack of those ballasts and
had to remove all from service.
Triple bagged and stored in an old shed for 'future' disposal - read "when
we figure out how we will let you know".
The bags eventually disintigrated - the ballasts leaked and the whole damn
shed became one embarassing toxic mess.
Cost a small fortune to clean up the site and bury everything - including
the shed.
A nearby port faciliiy for the local pulp mill (Porpoise Harbour) had the
distinction of being the most (PCBs) contaminated place in the Western
World!
PBBs are heavier than water - a convenient test of unknown oil - and the
bottom of the harbour was covered with a (hopefully) sealing layer of clay.
Nasty as they once said it is or not it, is still a worrysome substance.

Ken.

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

George E. Cawthon wrote:
Jon Danniken wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by
some guy "salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no
longer safe to eat. You may want to investigate further what may be
inside that

transformer

of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could
assist

in

finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.


How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for
the PCBs? Jon


I'm not Doug, but oil is used in larger transformer for
cooling. PCBs were added to improve heat transfer. I have
no idea what the smallest size of oil filled transformers
are but larger ones are way bigger than 200 pounds. 8KVA
may be a little small for an oil filled transformer.


Geez ig. You sure stirred up a hornets' nest here.
Getting to be one of those long (remembered) threads.
BTW what program/workflow gets those photos on line so fast? I Emailed you
at both addresses you posted but have had no reply.
Still interested in that starter motor?

Regards.
Ken.

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

On 4 Jan 2005 03:03:32 GMT, Ignoramus22732
wrote:

Okay, all that said -- for you paranoids out there there is another
source of PCBs that _was_ commonly used in the home: Capacitors,
especially the capacitors used in electric light ballasts. Those _did_
have PCBs in them at one time. So if you're got some 30-year-old
flourescent lights hanging around you might want to take a minute to
check the ballasts. If they don't have PCBs they will say so.

How about these huge capacitors from the demolished UPS?

See

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/capacitors/

The cup is pictured for size comparison.

Are they 4.1 farad each or they are 4.1 millifarad? They are rated for
300V. Are there PCB in them?

i

If there is liquid in them and they date from before about 1973, then
there's a good chance they do have PCBs in them. Check with the
manufacturer.

--RC

"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 21:47:43 -0500, "ATP"
wrote:


wrote in message
news
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 20:02:00 GMT, (Harry
Chickpea) wrote:

"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Question 3: The oil in older, larger transformers was there for either
cooling or insulation - I don't recall, and it doesn't matter, since
it's
just a point of interest. But, the PCBs were there as a byproduct, not
because they had a purpose.

Nope. The chemicals were there to facilitate heat transfer,
especially in larger grid transformers. Needless to say,
non-conductive liquids with a high boiling point are required for the
task.

http://www.ehso.com/EHSO_PCB.htm

Characteristics and Uses of PCBs

PCBs belong to a family of organic compounds known as chlorinated
hydrocarbons. Key characteristics include: high boiling point, high
degree of chemical stability, low flammability, and low electric
conductivity. Between 1926-29 and 1977, PCB-containing products were
manufactured for use in applications where stable, fire-resistant,
heat-transfer properties were demanded. The most extensive use of PCBs
occurred in dielectric fluids. Such fluids typically have the
following characteristics: a heavy oil appearance, high boiling point,
high chemical stability, high flash point, low electrical
conductivity, and low water solubility. PCBs were also used as
plasticizers and additives in lubricating and cutting fluids. Most
PCBs were sold for use as dielectric fluids (insulating liquids) in
electric transformers and capacitors. Other uses included heat
transfer fluid, hydraulic fluid, dye carriers in carbonless copy
paper, plasticizers in paints, adhesives, and caulking compounds, and
filters in investment casting wax. Although PCBs are no longer
commercially made in the United States, many electric transformers and
capacitors once filled with PCBs are still in service. Additionally,
PCBs currently are being inadvertently produced as byproducts during
the manufacture of certain organic chemicals. PCB Manufacturers and
Trade Names lists some of the manufacturers, who made PCBs and the
trade names of their products.

Why Are PCBs Harmful to Human Health and the Environment
When released into the environment, PCBs do not easily break apart and
form new chemical arrangements (i.e., they are not readily
biodegradable). Instead they persist for many years, bioaccumulate,
and bioconcentrate in organisms. Well documented tests on laboratory
animals show that various levels of PCBs cause reproductive effects,
gastric disorders, skin lesions, and cancerous tumors. Exposure to
PCBs in humans can cause chloracne (a painful, disfiguring skin
ailment), liver damage, nausea, dizziness, eye irritation, and
bronchitis.

While this is basically correct, I suspect it is somewhat out of date.
IIRC, electrical equipment containing PCBs had to be replaced by a
certain date, so there should be no transformers or other equipment
still in service in the US containing PCBs.

There were a lot of flourescent ballasts that contained PCB's, and a lot of
old shelf stock around.

Those are capacitors, not transformers, however. (Which is only
important because I was much less well informed about capacitors than
I was about transformers?)

Some of them are undoubtedly still in service. There
are still some very old utility transformers in service that contain PCB's.

Are you sure about that? When I was with Arizona Public Service Co. in
the late 70s they were in the process of replacing all their
PCB-loaded transformers with non-PCB models. My understanding was that
there was an EPA deadline they had to meet for the changeover.

--RC


"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 21:57:02 -0500, "ATP"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:55:33 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

Here in upstate NY, an entire lake was contaminated with PCBs by some
guy
"salvaging" transformers at the shoreline. The fish are no longer safe
to
eat. You may want to investigate further what may be inside that
transformer
of yours before disassembling it. Perhaps your state's environmental
conservation department, or local department of solid waste could
assist
in
finding out more. Or, the manufacturer.

How many transformers do you have in your house, Doug?
How many of those contain PCBs?
What types of transformers used PCBs, and what was the purpose for the
PCBs?

Jon


Question 1: Doesn't matter. I have no intention of disassembling them.

If you had transformers with PCBs in them, it most definitely _would_
matter. Under certain conditions transformers will dissassemble
themselves in a rather spectacular fashion. And believe me, you would
_not_ want to live in a house where that had happened -- even if the
authorities would let you stay on.


Question 2: Probably none, but none of the transformers in my home are
older
than 3-4 years,

Immaterial. Even if they were 50 years old the transformers you'd find
in a home would not have PCBs in them. PCBs were only used in large or
highly specialized electrical equipment.

Bull****. They were used in flourescent ballasts.
quote of the relevant regulation snipped

Forgive me, but the subject under discussion was _transformers_. The
things in flourescent ballasts were capacitors.

--RC


"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

wrote in message
...
snip-------

Forgive me, but the subject under discussion was _transformers_. The
things in flourescent ballasts were capacitors.

--RC

Nope. Not the old type, anyway. The ballast IS a transformer, and the
old ones were filled with PCB. Those that don't have PCB's clearly state
so.

Harold

"Ignoramus28225" wrote in message
...

Ken, I use my own perl script to index photos. Here it is.

Cool, how do you use it, ie. where do you run the thing and with what
parameters, I'm familiar with perl but haven't taken your script apart yet
:-)


/Morten




---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.825 / Virus Database: 563 - Release Date: 30/12/2004

"Morten" wrote in message
...

"john johnson" wrote in message
u...

snip snap snude

While there is a fair bit of hysteria surrounding PCBs, there are some
real
risks with the pure stuff that people playing with old transformers and
capacitors need to be wary of.

Thanx for the warning, I was not aware that there still might som PCBs
arround in old oil filled transformers and old capacitors so I'll keep
that
in mind next time I go shopping at the local scrapheap :-)


/Morten


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I worked for Westinghouse transformer rebuilding service in the late
1940's. Was into PCB oil up to my elbows sometimes. Maybe I should start
worrying about this??? W W

On 3 Jan 2005 16:53:08 GMT, Ignoramus22732
wrote:

I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i


Kind of ashame to take it apart, there are probably a lot of tesla
experimenters that would give eye teeth for that xfmr.

If you where close to me I'd buy it off your hands myself.

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:14:06 -0600, TURTLE wrote:

"Ignoramus22732" wrote in message
...
I am demolishing a huge 8 kVa UPS. Lots of nice wires, screws etc.

It has a large transformer, it weighs around 200 lbs. It comes from a
that 8 KVA Ferrups UPS. There is a super heavy square shaped copper
wire on it, which, I fancy, could sell for some money. This wire is
something like 3x8 mm in cross section. Very heavy stuff. So, if I
somehow manage to pull the transformer apart, I would, first, able to
throw the steel part to garbage, and second, to get and sell copper
wire. i would also keep some of this copper wire for home uses such as
grounding wire for my generator.

Without taking it apart I will not be able to do anything with this
monstrosity, not even throw it away.

This is a specialty transformer with lots of contacts, so I do not
think that I could sell it. (another, smaller like 50 lbs transformer
is an isolation transformer which I hope to sell for at least
something. Also, there are 8 1.2 farad capacitors)

So... How do I take it apart? It was assembled from steel plates, can
it be therefore disassembled?

i

This is Turtle.

i , first before starting to take apart this transformer contact
your Medical insurance company and add on a Cancer Policy for you
and the family members for your may need it if you spill any of this
liquid at your house or on you. The transformer oil in not cancer
causing stuff till it is used over a year or so and then it become
PCB . the stuff is activated by the electricity going through it and
become a Cancer causing stuff after they have been used. Now here is
a chance to get rid of a unwanted Brother in law or kind folks by
just getting them to take it apart and get the oil on them. In Short
order your in the class of getting cancer soon.

So if you interested in keeping your family safe and not have
cancer. You need to have it hauled off to the Power company work
station and dump it out when they are not looking and they have the
means to dispose of it properly. There maybe $30 or $40 of copper in
it but having Cancer will wipe out that profit real fast.

i , DON"T TOUCH THAT STUFF AND GET RID OF IT.

TURTLE



Thanks Turtle. That is a dry transformer, there is no liquid in it.

i

This is Turtle.

Well if they are dry packs rip them apart.

Use a grinder on the welded seam and a hack saw on the coil packs. If you use a
torch on the case you will get bad vapor from inside.

Check the capasitor out for being dry pack also . The same story for them.

TURTLE

O

Kind of ashame to take it apart, there are probably a lot of tesla
experimenters that would give eye teeth for that xfmr.

If you where close to me I'd buy it off your hands myself.

I dunno. I think that in reality, no one needs these things, a thought
such as "would be nice to play with one" probably crosses minds of a
few people, but not many of those actually want to acquire such a
behemoth.

If you have a reasoned opinion otherwise, maybe you can suggest how I
can try to find people who need it.

I live in Western suburbs of Chicago.

i


Post an add in your local bargainmart or do a web search for tesla
clubs in your area.

If you where in KY I'd buy it, I've been looking for a good deal on a
older pole pig transformer and pole capacitors for a couple years.
Handy if you want to make a rail gun or shrink quarters.

i keep seeing reviews and raves about this naturalisproducts.com and
organiconline.com.sg . many people are discussing in beauty forums and
magazines have positive reviews on this . but this thing ain't new, its
been around for 20 years! anyone tried can feedback to me on exactly
how good it is?



----------------------------------------
quote

can anyone help me please, am looking for the local distributor or any
shop selling the naturalis range of skin and body care products, from
this company http://www.naturalisproducts.com . looking for this
urgently. for those who have not come across it, its some foodbased
anti-aging products. i googled for this and received result
showing its available at http://www.organiconline.com.sg. i need this
urgently but shipping from singapore will take some time, if anyone is
distributing this please contact me at
urgently. i have a group of us looking to buy this. thanks!

"Modat22" wrote in message
...
O

Kind of ashame to take it apart, there are probably a lot of tesla
experimenters that would give eye teeth for that xfmr.

If you where close to me I'd buy it off your hands myself.

I dunno. I think that in reality, no one needs these things, a thought
such as "would be nice to play with one" probably crosses minds of a
few people, but not many of those actually want to acquire such a
behemoth.

If you have a reasoned opinion otherwise, maybe you can suggest how I
can try to find people who need it.

I live in Western suburbs of Chicago.

i


Post an add in your local bargainmart or do a web search for tesla
clubs in your area.

If you where in KY I'd buy it, I've been looking for a good deal on a
older pole pig transformer and pole capacitors for a couple years.
Handy if you want to make a rail gun or shrink quarters.

Amateur radio operators are often into doing interesting things with
electricity. Wiring up the cat....stuff like that. Maybe he could mention it
in a ham radio newsgroup.

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
"ATP" wrote in message
...
snip-----

There were a lot of flourescent ballasts that contained PCB's, and a lot

of

old shelf stock around. Some of them are undoubtedly still in service.

There

are still some very old utility transformers in service that contain

PCB's.

If memory serves, oil in transformers can be exchanged and the transformer
cleaned such that if the PCB level is 50 PPM they can still be used. Not
all equipment was replaced as a result, although the vast majority of the
PCB's have been replaced.

Harold



Correct. Large oil filled transformers could be flushed, decontaminated,
and refilled with newer oils that did not contain PCB's. Usually this
was NOT done, as a whole new transformer cost less. In a few cases.
where specialty transformers were involved, it was done.

One example are the main power transformers in GG-1 electric locomotives
(PRR, PC, Conrail, Amtrak). This is one factor that lead to their
retirement. Most were scrapped, but a few went to museums. Most of these
had the main transformer removed due to the PCB problem, and are now
incomplete. A few had their transformers flushed so they could be
preserved intact.

Dan Mitchell
============

Maybe you would be interested in my capacitors then.

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/capacitors/

i


Hmm link doesn't work for me.