Why,apparently, did both navy ship get damaged so close to the water line? Didn't the freighter and the oil tanker have a high foreward brow?
2nd question. How do you lose 10 sailors in possibly a 20-25 mph collision? Is it blut force trauma, or do they drown inside the ship because that section gets sealed off (no escape) to save the rest of the ship.
One of you probably has some educated opinions.
Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Why,apparently, did both navy ship get damaged so close to the water line?
Didn't the freighter and the oil tanker have a high foreward brow?
2nd question. How do you lose 10 sailors in possibly a 20-25 mph
collision? Is it blut force trauma, or do they drown inside the ship
because that section gets sealed off (no escape) to save the rest of the
ship. One of you probably has some educated opinions. Thanks, Ivan Vegvary
No, most (big) freighters built less than 30(?) years ago have the "bulbous"
bow below the water line. It sticks out way in front of the pointed bow.
These things apparently save a lot of energy.

Last one, the dead were found inside the ship when divers went down into the
flooded compartments.

Jon

Thanks Jon!
Ivan Végváry

On Wednesday, August 23, 2017 at 2:09:49 PM UTC-4, Ivan Vegvary wrote:
Why,apparently, did both navy ship get damaged so close to the water line? Didn't the freighter and the oil tanker have a high foreward brow?
2nd question. How do you lose 10 sailors in possibly a 20-25 mph collision? Is it blut force trauma, or do they drown inside the ship because that section gets sealed off (no escape) to save the rest of the ship.
One of you probably has some educated opinions.
Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

Don't know about the first question - I assume Jon has it correct. As for the second question, the dead were (mostly?) found in their flooded sleeping compartments.

The big question, in my mind, is WTF? don't these ships (both of them) have radar? And don't they have someone watching where they are going? Also, this is supposedly a very busy harbor. Isn't there a harbor master (or whatever such a person is called) keeping an eye on things?

What century is this, anyway?

On 2017-08-23, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Why,apparently, did both navy ship get damaged so close to the water
line? Didn't the freighter and the oil tanker have a high foreward
brow? 2nd question. How do you lose 10 sailors in possibly a 20-25
mph collision? Is it blut force trauma, or do they drown inside the
ship because that section gets sealed off (no escape) to save the
rest of the ship. One of you probably has some educated opinions.
Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

I think that they got hit by bulbous bows... And people live inside
those compartments... The series of accidents looks quite suspicious...

"Ignoramus3346" wrote in message
...
On 2017-08-23, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Why,apparently, did both navy ship get damaged so close to the
water
line? Didn't the freighter and the oil tanker have a high foreward
brow? 2nd question. How do you lose 10 sailors in possibly a
20-25
mph collision? Is it blut force trauma, or do they drown inside the
ship because that section gets sealed off (no escape) to save the
rest of the ship. One of you probably has some educated opinions.
Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

I think that they got hit by bulbous bows... And people live inside
those compartments... The series of accidents looks quite
suspicious...

Maybe they bought the hydraulic seals for the steering gear from a new
lowest bidder?

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 12:32:09 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 23, 2017 at 2:09:49 PM UTC-4, Ivan Vegvary wrote:
Why,apparently, did both navy ship get damaged so close to the water line? Didn't the freighter and the oil tanker have a high foreward brow?
2nd question. How do you lose 10 sailors in possibly a 20-25 mph collision? Is it blut force trauma, or do they drown inside the ship because that section gets sealed off (no escape) to save the rest of the ship.
One of you probably has some educated opinions.
Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

Don't know about the first question - I assume Jon has it correct. As for the second question, the dead were (mostly?) found in their flooded sleeping compartments.

The big question, in my mind, is WTF? don't these ships (both of them) have radar? And don't they have someone watching where they are going? Also, this is supposedly a very busy harbor. Isn't there a harbor master (or whatever such a person is called) keeping an eye on things?

What century is this, anyway?

Singapore is one of the busiest ports in the world and because it is
so congested has a traffic control scheme that manages all ship
traffic within the harbor.

From what I have read if you enter the harbor you are monitored by
shore radar and if you deviate from the traffic scheme you will be
immediately notified by radio and directed to a proper course.

The news reports I've read have been rather vague about the actual
position of the ships, headings, speed, etc., but I did read reference
to "south of Singapore" which may mean that the ships were outside the
traffic control area.

And yes, ships are required by international law to maintain a watch
and to proceed at a reasonable speed and to avoid collisions.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 14:53:12 -0500, Ignoramus3346
wrote:

I think that they got hit by bulbous bows...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uuCNAwXGaQ

Oh, bulbous *bows* not bouffants... My bad, but enjoy anyway
--
William

On 8/23/2017 11:09 AM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:
Why,apparently, did both navy ship get damaged so close to the water line? Didn't the freighter and the oil tanker have a high foreward brow?
2nd question. How do you lose 10 sailors in possibly a 20-25 mph collision? Is it blut force trauma, or do they drown inside the ship because that section gets sealed off (no escape) to save the rest of the ship.
One of you probably has some educated opinions.
Thanks, Ivan Vegvary


Every modern big freighter I've seen pics of has a big underwater nose
ahead of the waterline.

https://www.google.com/search?q=frei... ZwS5lschipCM:

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 11:09:45 -0700 (PDT), Ivan Vegvary
wrote:

Why,apparently, did both navy ship get damaged so close to the water line?

Look at the bow of the ACX Crystal. See the pointy nose which scraped
the decks? See the bulbous nose beneath that which hit belowdecks?
http://tinyurl.com/yb4ltdv2 and http://tinyurl.com/y8xmr4pp , class
NK bow.

Didn't the freighter and the oil tanker have a high foreward brow?

I haven't seen the second ship yet, but judging by the damage to the
USS John McCain, it looks like the same type of bow. They're seem to
be common. Watch some ship collision vids on Djutube and you'll see
that.


2nd question. How do you lose 10 sailors in possibly a 20-25 mph collision? Is it blut force trauma, or do they drown inside the ship because that section gets sealed off (no escape) to save the rest of the ship.
One of you probably has some educated opinions.

When you ram something through the outer hull, water can flush people
out in an instant, or simply drown them (Fitz). But if anyone was on
the deck, why didn't they warn of the collision before getting
knocked/swept off? (Thereby making themselves unavailable to be
knocked or swept off.)

-
What I want to know is why, with several redundant systems and
procedures, did they hit either time?

1) Both ships have crewmen manning the bridge at all times, but no
bridge crewman from either ship spotted the other before collision.

2) Both ships should have their radar turned on 24/7 while underweigh,
yet no radar showed the other ship.

3) The military is at a state of alert now and should have had watches
on every ship, yet no sentries on the military ships spotted anything.
4) Military ships should also have working sonar, yet nothing was
caught.

Altogether, that is so highly improbable that it defies logic unless
both ships were dark (no lights/radar/sonar).

GPS spoofing moves ships into each other, but all those other methods
of watch should have caught the other ship before either collision. Of
course, the report by the captain of the ACX Crystal was pure
make-believe. He flashed them with lights 10 minutes before hitting?
Where was the 12 minutes of fog horn collision warnings, hmmm? You
can't miss those, even through the hull.

I wonder if any of the ships' crew members disappear...

-
I am a Transfinancial--A rich person born in a poor person's body.
Please stop the hate by sending me money to resolve my money
identity disorder. --anon

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 14:53:12 -0500, Ignoramus3346
wrote:

On 2017-08-23, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Why,apparently, did both navy ship get damaged so close to the water
line? Didn't the freighter and the oil tanker have a high foreward
brow? 2nd question. How do you lose 10 sailors in possibly a 20-25
mph collision? Is it blut force trauma, or do they drown inside the
ship because that section gets sealed off (no escape) to save the
rest of the ship. One of you probably has some educated opinions.
Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

I think that they got hit by bulbous bows... And people live inside
those compartments... The series of accidents looks quite suspicious...

Yeah, something hinky this way comes. We may find traitors on both
(or all 4?) ships, too.

-
I am a Transfinancial--A rich person born in a poor person's body.
Please stop the hate by sending me money to resolve my money
identity disorder. --anon

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 20:44:55 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 11:09:45 -0700 (PDT), Ivan Vegvary
wrote:

Why,apparently, did both navy ship get damaged so close to the water line?

Look at the bow of the ACX Crystal. See the pointy nose which scraped
the decks? See the bulbous nose beneath that which hit belowdecks?
http://tinyurl.com/yb4ltdv2 and http://tinyurl.com/y8xmr4pp , class
NK bow.

Didn't the freighter and the oil tanker have a high foreward brow?

I haven't seen the second ship yet, but judging by the damage to the
USS John McCain, it looks like the same type of bow. They're seem to
be common. Watch some ship collision vids on Djutube and you'll see
that.


2nd question. How do you lose 10 sailors in possibly a 20-25 mph collision? Is it blut force trauma, or do they drown inside the ship because that section gets sealed off (no escape) to save the rest of the ship.
One of you probably has some educated opinions.

When you ram something through the outer hull, water can flush people
out in an instant, or simply drown them (Fitz). But if anyone was on
the deck, why didn't they warn of the collision before getting
knocked/swept off? (Thereby making themselves unavailable to be
knocked or swept off.)

-
What I want to know is why, with several redundant systems and
procedures, did they hit either time?

1) Both ships have crewmen manning the bridge at all times, but no
bridge crewman from either ship spotted the other before collision.

2) Both ships should have their radar turned on 24/7 while underweigh,
yet no radar showed the other ship.

3) The military is at a state of alert now and should have had watches
on every ship, yet no sentries on the military ships spotted anything.
4) Military ships should also have working sonar, yet nothing was
caught.

Altogether, that is so highly improbable that it defies logic unless
both ships were dark (no lights/radar/sonar).

GPS spoofing moves ships into each other, but all those other methods
of watch should have caught the other ship before either collision. Of
course, the report by the captain of the ACX Crystal was pure
make-believe. He flashed them with lights 10 minutes before hitting?
Where was the 12 minutes of fog horn collision warnings, hmmm? You
can't miss those, even through the hull.

I wonder if any of the ships' crew members disappear...


It was reported that the collision took place in Singapore waters and
the position appears to be at the eastern end of the Singapore port
traffic pattern where the Port Authority of Singapore controls all
traffic and monitors all moving shipping by radar.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40995829
shows the position of the Alnic at the time of the collision.

I have also seen what appears to be a radar chart showing all shipping
in and approaching Singapore harbor at the time of the collision,
which shows only the tanker and the Singapore Straits Times reports
that the Harbor Authority states that the Navel Vessel was not
detected by their traffic control radar.
http://tinyurl.com/ya2l4ep3
It has been the law for a number of yours now, that all shipping,
right down to small yachts, are required to have, and operate, a
Automatic Identification System (AIS) in order to enter Singapore
harbor.

About 350 ships arrive in Singapore Port daily.
--
Cheers,

Schweik

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 11:09:45 -0700 (PDT), Ivan Vegvary
wrote:

Why,apparently, did both navy ship get damaged so close to the water
line?

Look at the bow of the ACX Crystal. See the pointy nose which
scraped
the decks? See the bulbous nose beneath that which hit belowdecks?
http://tinyurl.com/yb4ltdv2 and http://tinyurl.com/y8xmr4pp , class
NK bow.

Didn't the freighter and the oil tanker have a high foreward brow?

I haven't seen the second ship yet, but judging by the damage to the
USS John McCain, it looks like the same type of bow. They're seem
to
be common. Watch some ship collision vids on Djutube and you'll see
that.


2nd question. How do you lose 10 sailors in possibly a 20-25 mph
collision? Is it blut force trauma, or do they drown inside the ship
because that section gets sealed off (no escape) to save the rest of
the ship.
One of you probably has some educated opinions.

When you ram something through the outer hull, water can flush
people
out in an instant, or simply drown them (Fitz). But if anyone was
on
the deck, why didn't they warn of the collision before getting
knocked/swept off? (Thereby making themselves unavailable to be
knocked or swept off.)

-
What I want to know is why, with several redundant systems and
procedures, did they hit either time?

1) Both ships have crewmen manning the bridge at all times, but no
bridge crewman from either ship spotted the other before collision.

2) Both ships should have their radar turned on 24/7 while
underweigh,
yet no radar showed the other ship.

3) The military is at a state of alert now and should have had
watches
on every ship, yet no sentries on the military ships spotted
anything.
4) Military ships should also have working sonar, yet nothing was
caught.

Altogether, that is so highly improbable that it defies logic unless
both ships were dark (no lights/radar/sonar).

GPS spoofing moves ships into each other, but all those other
methods
of watch should have caught the other ship before either collision.
Of
course, the report by the captain of the ACX Crystal was pure
make-believe. He flashed them with lights 10 minutes before
hitting?
Where was the 12 minutes of fog horn collision warnings, hmmm? You
can't miss those, even through the hull.

I wonder if any of the ships' crew members disappear...

http://www.maritime-executive.com/ar...eering-failure

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 06:35:37 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 11:09:45 -0700 (PDT), Ivan Vegvary
wrote:

Why,apparently, did both navy ship get damaged so close to the water
line?

Look at the bow of the ACX Crystal. See the pointy nose which
scraped
the decks? See the bulbous nose beneath that which hit belowdecks?
http://tinyurl.com/yb4ltdv2 and http://tinyurl.com/y8xmr4pp , class
NK bow.

Didn't the freighter and the oil tanker have a high foreward brow?

I haven't seen the second ship yet, but judging by the damage to the
USS John McCain, it looks like the same type of bow. They're seem
to
be common. Watch some ship collision vids on Djutube and you'll see
that.


2nd question. How do you lose 10 sailors in possibly a 20-25 mph
collision? Is it blut force trauma, or do they drown inside the ship
because that section gets sealed off (no escape) to save the rest of
the ship.
One of you probably has some educated opinions.

When you ram something through the outer hull, water can flush
people
out in an instant, or simply drown them (Fitz). But if anyone was
on
the deck, why didn't they warn of the collision before getting
knocked/swept off? (Thereby making themselves unavailable to be
knocked or swept off.)

-
What I want to know is why, with several redundant systems and
procedures, did they hit either time?

1) Both ships have crewmen manning the bridge at all times, but no
bridge crewman from either ship spotted the other before collision.

2) Both ships should have their radar turned on 24/7 while
underweigh,
yet no radar showed the other ship.

3) The military is at a state of alert now and should have had
watches
on every ship, yet no sentries on the military ships spotted
anything.
4) Military ships should also have working sonar, yet nothing was
caught.

Altogether, that is so highly improbable that it defies logic unless
both ships were dark (no lights/radar/sonar).

GPS spoofing moves ships into each other, but all those other
methods
of watch should have caught the other ship before either collision.
Of
course, the report by the captain of the ACX Crystal was pure
make-believe. He flashed them with lights 10 minutes before
hitting?
Where was the 12 minutes of fog horn collision warnings, hmmm? You
can't miss those, even through the hull.

I wonder if any of the ships' crew members disappear...

http://www.maritime-executive.com/ar...eering-failure

Don't military ships have bow thrusters? Might be a nice safety
feature for the future if not.

Do you buy into the maintenance thing? Where I think it might have
played into things, it didn't in all 4 cases. One of the posters
mentioned that they were "AIS dark". I thought that might be reserved
for times at high alert and games maneuvers, not while traveling
shipping lanes with numerous other ships. But even with their radar
off (passive only), why didn't they see the other ships in time? When
you're dark, you have every means of identifying threats going strong
at all times, and that includes eyes on the deck.

Somethin's hinky here, including GIS spoofing.

-
I am a Transfinancial--A rich person born in a poor person's body.
Please stop the hate by sending me money to resolve my money
identity disorder. --anon