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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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I'm dissapointed
Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation. I
explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out. There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem with posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions here and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help. ****. Eric |
#3
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I'm dissapointed
I'm no expert on hot water recirculation systems, but the ones I have seen
used two hot water tank type heaters. A little one that kept the water in the pies hot, and a larger one for bulk hot water. I was not really interested so I didn't look them closely. I didn't see where I had anything to add so I didn't post. wrote in message ... Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation. I explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out. There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem with posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions here and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help. ****. Eric |
#4
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I'm dissapointed
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#5
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I'm dissapointed
wrote in message
... Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation. I explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out. There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem with posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions here and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help. ****. Eric You dismissed the obvious solutions, so what else did you expect? The timer I suggested would run the pump only long enough to replace the cold water in the pipe with hot, so you need just a momentary Start pulse to control it. Recirculating the hot water through the cold pipe means you no longer have cold water immediately to drink or to temper the hot, plus it wastes energy outside of heating season. Presumably you can't insulate the pipe if you can't run wires along it. The only other place to dispose of the room temperature water in the pipe is down the drain, which a leaky faucet will do. I had no good answer that met your restriction of only unpowered passive components at the remote end. -jsw |
#6
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I'm dissapointed
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#7
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I'm dissapointed
On 16-Jun-17 3:45 AM, wrote:
Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation. I explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out. There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem with posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions here and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help. ****. Eric I thought of this but I don't think it fits your criteria. http://www.chilipepperapp.com/ |
#8
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I'm dissapointed
On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 3:45:10 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation. I explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out. There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem with posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions here and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help. ****. Eric I really did mean to post this earlier, but sometimes life gets in the way. How about controlling the pump with a timer that's triggered by a wireless remote button? There are wireless doorbells and wireless light switches, surely there must be something like it already on the market. |
#9
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I'm dissapointed
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
... On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 3:45:10 PM UTC-4, wrote: Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation. I explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out. There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem with posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions here and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help. ****. Eric I really did mean to post this earlier, but sometimes life gets in the way. How about controlling the pump with a timer that's triggered by a wireless remote button? There are wireless doorbells and wireless light switches, surely there must be something like it already on the market. ================== There are wireless motion detectors that would turn on the pump to circulate water only if someone was in the room. When I posted that the problem was poorly specified I meant the conditions that might turn on the pump to anticipate need, rather than wastefully running it continuously. -jsw |
#10
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I'm dissapointed
On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 10:50:10 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote: snip There are wireless motion detectors that would turn on the pump to circulate water only if someone was in the room. When I posted that the problem was poorly specified I meant the conditions that might turn on the pump to anticipate need, rather than wastefully running it continuously. This system/company supplies a variety of different switches & buttons to work with their solution. Their solution isn't what Eric wanted but I suspect some of these accessories may work with other setups: http://www.gotho****er.com/plumbing-parts I found this guy's website interesting. It can get pretty expensive to have that hot water ready at the faucet: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...circEnergy.htm -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b Remove no.spam for email |
#11
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I'm dissapointed
"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
news On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 10:50:10 -0400 "Jim Wilkins" wrote: snip This system/company supplies a variety of different switches & buttons to work with their solution. Their solution isn't what Eric wanted but I suspect some of these accessories may work with other setups: http://www.gotho****er.com/plumbing-parts They wouldn't work with mine either. When I want hot water for laundry I get up early and build a fire to heat the kettles. |
#12
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I'm dissapointed
On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 12:48:06 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote: snip When I want hot water for laundry I get up early and build a fire to heat the kettles. I'm not quite that bad but I do have to turn the water heater up a half hour or so before doing the wash or taking a bath. Normally it is turned down all the way, basically just the pilot running. Guess we're a couple of cheapskates ;-) -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b Remove no.spam for email |
#13
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I'm dissapointed
I didn't see your question. Maybe your feed doesn't get distributed
very well. Ask again. John On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 12:45:29 -0700, wrote: Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation. I explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out. There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem with posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions here and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help. ****. Eric John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address |
#14
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I'm dissapointed
On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 11:27:27 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote: I found this guy's website interesting. It can get pretty expensive to have that hot water ready at the faucet: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...circEnergy.htm True. I installed the tank and pump in my brother's house during the remodel. I metered http://www.neon-john.net/Misc/Energy_Audit.htm The water heater with the pump on and off. It added about a third to his energy consumption. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address |
#15
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I'm dissapointed
On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 09:47:53 -0400, Neon John wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 11:27:27 -0400, Leon Fisk wrote: I found this guy's website interesting. It can get pretty expensive to have that hot water ready at the faucet: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...circEnergy.htm True. I installed the tank and pump in my brother's house during the remodel. I metered http://www.neon-john.net/Misc/Energy_Audit.htm The water heater with the pump on and off. It added about a third to his energy consumption. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address not taking into account the heating provided to the house by the circulating hot water - an asset in the winter, a cost for cooling in summer |
#16
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I'm dissapointed
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 22:58:35 -0400, Gerry
wrote: not taking into account the heating provided to the house by the circulating hot water - an asset in the winter, a cost for cooling in summer That would be zero in both seasons since almost all his plumbing is in his unconditioned basement where the ceiling (house floors) are insulated. It's much better to install point-of-use heaters on all the sinks. Just leave the shower like it is since point-of-use heaters with that much heating capacity require heavy new wiring and maybe even a new service entrance. My neighbor with all-point-of-use including the shower. The shower heater draws 80 amps at 240 volts. My POU heaters are tiny and draw 30 amps at 240 volts. They are tucked up under the sinks so that the flex lines to the valves connect directly to the heater. Water is hot in seconds without the losses of a circulating system. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address |
#17
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I'm dissapointed
"Neon John" wrote in message
... On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 22:58:35 -0400, Gerry wrote: not taking into account the heating provided to the house by the circulating hot water - an asset in the winter, a cost for cooling in summer That would be zero in both seasons since almost all his plumbing is in his unconditioned basement where the ceiling (house floors) are insulated. It's much better to install point-of-use heaters on all the sinks. Just leave the shower like it is since point-of-use heaters with that much heating capacity require heavy new wiring and maybe even a new service entrance. My neighbor with all-point-of-use including the shower. The shower heater draws 80 amps at 240 volts. My POU heaters are tiny and draw 30 amps at 240 volts. They are tucked up under the sinks so that the flex lines to the valves connect directly to the heater. Water is hot in seconds without the losses of a circulating system. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address IIRC he ruled out adding wiring and wanted an all-passive way to use a tempering valve at the far end. I didn't have a solution that I would use myself. -jsw |
#18
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I'm dissapointed
On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 8:58:58 AM UTC-4, Neon John wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 22:58:35 -0400, Gerry wrote: not taking into account the heating provided to the house by the circulating hot water - an asset in the winter, a cost for cooling in summer That would be zero in both seasons since almost all his plumbing is in his unconditioned basement where the ceiling (house floors) are insulated. It's much better to install point-of-use heaters on all the sinks. Just leave the shower like it is since point-of-use heaters with that much heating capacity require heavy new wiring and maybe even a new service entrance. My neighbor with all-point-of-use including the shower. The shower heater draws 80 amps at 240 volts. My POU heaters are tiny and draw 30 amps at 240 volts. They are tucked up under the sinks so that the flex lines to the valves connect directly to the heater. Water is hot in seconds without the losses of a circulating system. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address What is the flow rate of that shower, and how hot does it get? Somehow that seems like a LOT of power. |
#19
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I'm dissapointed
"rangerssuck" wrote in message
... On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 8:58:58 AM UTC-4, Neon John wrote: On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 22:58:35 -0400, Gerry wrote: not taking into account the heating provided to the house by the circulating hot water - an asset in the winter, a cost for cooling in summer That would be zero in both seasons since almost all his plumbing is in his unconditioned basement where the ceiling (house floors) are insulated. It's much better to install point-of-use heaters on all the sinks. Just leave the shower like it is since point-of-use heaters with that much heating capacity require heavy new wiring and maybe even a new service entrance. My neighbor with all-point-of-use including the shower. The shower heater draws 80 amps at 240 volts. My POU heaters are tiny and draw 30 amps at 240 volts. They are tucked up under the sinks so that the flex lines to the valves connect directly to the heater. Water is hot in seconds without the losses of a circulating system. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address What is the flow rate of that shower, and how hot does it get? Somehow that seems like a LOT of power. I wired the upper and lower elements to separate breakers and leave only the upper on most of the time, set at 120F. It acts somewhat like a POU heater and can keep up with my sink spray shower on 240V, 18A (measured, not the breaker rating). When it kicks in during a shower the water heats up and I have to add a little more cold. The lower element thermostat is turned all the way up to heat the full 40 gallons to 145-150F to last through several days of a power outage and also sterilize any biofilm that may have accumulated in the lower part of the tank. We can wire our own residences here, and I learned to be an industrial electrician. I can't recommend or further describe this energy saving method to others. Having a warm zone in the tank could be hazardous with untreated well water. -jsw |
#20
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I'm dissapointed
On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 06:15:17 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote: On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 8:58:58 AM UTC-4, Neon John wrote: It's much better to install point-of-use heaters on all the sinks. Just leave the shower like it is since point-of-use heaters with that much heating capacity require heavy new wiring and maybe even a new service entrance. My neighbor with all-point-of-use including the shower. The shower heater draws 80 amps at 240 volts. What is the flow rate of that shower, and how hot does it get? Somehow that seems like a LOT of power. No knowledge the flow rate but it will be modest - probably about 2.5 gallons per minute. Water has a very high specific heat so it takes a lot of energy to raise the temperature of a flowing stream. The standard for the industry is 100 deg F rise. I know the current draw from the nameplate. It contains two heating chambers in hydro parallel, each fed by a 40 amp branch. Last year I replaced a plastic heating chamber for him after it froze and cracked. Quite small and uses direct heating. Two electrodes that look like either stainless steel or nickel are immersed directly in the water stream. It has a little control board that phase angle modulates the current feed to maintain a constant temperature, even at low flows. Last year he asked me to design an automatic standby generator system for his house. The loads worked out to require the 27kW Generac automatic system and some elementary load management during an outage. The shower heater represents the majority of the load, though his electric range, heat pump and dryer kick in pretty large loads themselves. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address |
#21
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I'm dissapointed
On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 3:45:10 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Eric If I had any knowledge in doing what you want to do, I would have given you a better answer. But as it was, I told you what my thoughts were. No, they did not solve your problem. But I replied with what I think is a better solution, but one that takes more work and work that you do not want to do. Sorry about that. Next time ask a question about something I know the answer to. Dan |
#22
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I'm dissapointed
How far is the tank and pump run going to be ? Is it all insulated ?
I have known people that turned off the recirc. pump and did without it as it ran far to much money out of the bank to the electric company. If the far end is a xyz - then get a local demand heater in line that your tank feeds. So the local demand doesn't work much if only at startup. Doesn't have to be a monster just heat the water between it and the hot water heater and if the pipe is insulated it turns off until you run the tank cool and then you always get hot from the local. Martin On 6/15/2017 2:45 PM, wrote: Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation. I explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out. There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem with posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions here and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help. ****. Eric |
#23
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I'm dissapointed
On 6/23/2017 10:03 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
How far is the tank and pump run going to be ? Is it all insulated ? I have known people that turned off the recirc. pump and did without it as it ran far to much money out of the bank to the electric company. If the far end is a xyz - then get a local demand heater in line that your tank feeds. So the local demand doesn't work much if only at startup. Doesn't have to be a monster just heat the water between it and the hot water heater and if the pipe is insulated it turns off until you run the tank cool and then you always get hot from the local. Martin I just today did exactly that , using a 2.5 gallon slightly-used heater I bought from an ad in the local paper . I was going to buy new but ... now we get 140° water from the sink faucet in 6 seconds , hot from the main tank takes long enough that the dishwasher was having extended run times because the water wasn't hot enough . -- Snag On 6/15/2017 2:45 PM, wrote: Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation. I explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out. There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem with posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions here and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help. ****. Eric |
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