Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default I'm dissapointed

Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation. I
explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were
responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In
fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out.
There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem with
posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions here
and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the
questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help.
****.
Eric
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On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 12:45:29 -0700
wrote:

Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation. I
explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were
responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In
fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out.
There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem with
posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions here
and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the
questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help.
****.
Eric


You had a lot of good ideas tossed around. Disregard any that you don't
like. Some of us throw out off-the-wall stuff to get you thinking about
different ways to solve the issue...

They make/have systems that can do what I think you want done. Maybe
not exactly like you were thinking... Here is one that works by turning
on the hot water faucet for a second or two and then shutting it off.
That causes the recirculating pump at the water heater to come on.

https://help.fasterho****er.com/Wate..._„¢__Standard

I've heard of these before, many years ago so there must be other
versions/makes available too.

I have pretty hard well water. It would toast/ruin that setup pretty
quick, along with most of the others. Friends I have with city water
would probably get a lot longer lifespan with it...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
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I'm no expert on hot water recirculation systems, but the ones I have seen
used two hot water tank type heaters. A little one that kept the water in
the pies hot, and a larger one for bulk hot water. I was not really
interested so I didn't look them closely. I didn't see where I had anything
to add so I didn't post.

wrote in message ...

Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation. I
explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were
responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In
fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out.
There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem with
posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions here
and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the
questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help.
****.
Eric

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Default I'm dissapointed

wrote in message
...
Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation.
I
explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were
responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In
fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out.
There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem
with
posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions
here
and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the
questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help.
****.
Eric


You dismissed the obvious solutions, so what else did you expect?

The timer I suggested would run the pump only long enough to replace
the cold water in the pipe with hot, so you need just a momentary
Start pulse to control it.

Recirculating the hot water through the cold pipe means you no longer
have cold water immediately to drink or to temper the hot, plus it
wastes energy outside of heating season. Presumably you can't insulate
the pipe if you can't run wires along it.

The only other place to dispose of the room temperature water in the
pipe is down the drain, which a leaky faucet will do.

I had no good answer that met your restriction of only unpowered
passive components at the remote end.
-jsw




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On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 3:45:10 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation. I
explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were
responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In
fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out.
There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem with
posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions here
and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the
questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help.
****.
Eric


I really did mean to post this earlier, but sometimes life gets in the way. How about controlling the pump with a timer that's triggered by a wireless remote button? There are wireless doorbells and wireless light switches, surely there must be something like it already on the market.
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"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 3:45:10 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation.
I
explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were
responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In
fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out.
There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem
with
posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions
here
and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the
questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help.
****.
Eric


I really did mean to post this earlier, but sometimes life gets in the
way. How about controlling the pump with a timer that's triggered by a
wireless remote button? There are wireless doorbells and wireless
light switches, surely there must be something like it already on the
market.

==================

There are wireless motion detectors that would turn on the pump to
circulate water only if someone was in the room. When I posted that
the problem was poorly specified I meant the conditions that might
turn on the pump to anticipate need, rather than wastefully running it
continuously.
-jsw


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On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 10:50:10 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
There are wireless motion detectors that would turn on the pump to
circulate water only if someone was in the room. When I posted that
the problem was poorly specified I meant the conditions that might
turn on the pump to anticipate need, rather than wastefully running it
continuously.


This system/company supplies a variety of different switches & buttons
to work with their solution. Their solution isn't what Eric wanted but
I suspect some of these accessories may work with other setups:

http://www.gotho****er.com/plumbing-parts

I found this guy's website interesting. It can get pretty expensive to
have that hot water ready at the faucet:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...circEnergy.htm

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email



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"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 10:50:10 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip

This system/company supplies a variety of different switches &
buttons
to work with their solution. Their solution isn't what Eric wanted
but
I suspect some of these accessories may work with other setups:

http://www.gotho****er.com/plumbing-parts


They wouldn't work with mine either. When I want hot water for laundry
I get up early and build a fire to heat the kettles.


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On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 12:48:06 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

snip
When I want hot water for laundry
I get up early and build a fire to heat the kettles.


I'm not quite that bad but I do have to turn the water heater up a half
hour or so before doing the wash or taking a bath. Normally it is
turned down all the way, basically just the pilot running.

Guess we're a couple of cheapskates ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
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On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 11:27:27 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:


I found this guy's website interesting. It can get pretty expensive to
have that hot water ready at the faucet:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...circEnergy.htm


True. I installed the tank and pump in my brother's house during the
remodel. I metered

http://www.neon-john.net/Misc/Energy_Audit.htm

The water heater with the pump on and off. It added about a third to
his energy consumption.

John


John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

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On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 09:47:53 -0400, Neon John wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 11:27:27 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:


I found this guy's website interesting. It can get pretty expensive to
have that hot water ready at the faucet:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...circEnergy.htm


True. I installed the tank and pump in my brother's house during the
remodel. I metered

http://www.neon-john.net/Misc/Energy_Audit.htm

The water heater with the pump on and off. It added about a third to
his energy consumption.

John


John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

not taking into account the heating provided to the house by the
circulating hot water - an asset in the winter, a cost for cooling in
summer


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On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 22:58:35 -0400, Gerry
wrote:


not taking into account the heating provided to the house by the
circulating hot water - an asset in the winter, a cost for cooling in
summer


That would be zero in both seasons since almost all his plumbing is in
his unconditioned basement where the ceiling (house floors) are
insulated.

It's much better to install point-of-use heaters on all the sinks.
Just leave the shower like it is since point-of-use heaters with that
much heating capacity require heavy new wiring and maybe even a new
service entrance. My neighbor with all-point-of-use including the
shower. The shower heater draws 80 amps at 240 volts.

My POU heaters are tiny and draw 30 amps at 240 volts. They are
tucked up under the sinks so that the flex lines to the valves connect
directly to the heater. Water is hot in seconds without the losses of
a circulating system.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

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"Neon John" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 22:58:35 -0400, Gerry
wrote:


not taking into account the heating provided to the house by the
circulating hot water - an asset in the winter, a cost for cooling
in
summer


That would be zero in both seasons since almost all his plumbing is
in
his unconditioned basement where the ceiling (house floors) are
insulated.

It's much better to install point-of-use heaters on all the sinks.
Just leave the shower like it is since point-of-use heaters with
that
much heating capacity require heavy new wiring and maybe even a new
service entrance. My neighbor with all-point-of-use including the
shower. The shower heater draws 80 amps at 240 volts.

My POU heaters are tiny and draw 30 amps at 240 volts. They are
tucked up under the sinks so that the flex lines to the valves
connect
directly to the heater. Water is hot in seconds without the losses
of
a circulating system.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address


IIRC he ruled out adding wiring and wanted an all-passive way to use a
tempering valve at the far end. I didn't have a solution that I would
use myself.
-jsw


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On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 8:58:58 AM UTC-4, Neon John wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 22:58:35 -0400, Gerry
wrote:


not taking into account the heating provided to the house by the
circulating hot water - an asset in the winter, a cost for cooling in
summer


That would be zero in both seasons since almost all his plumbing is in
his unconditioned basement where the ceiling (house floors) are
insulated.

It's much better to install point-of-use heaters on all the sinks.
Just leave the shower like it is since point-of-use heaters with that
much heating capacity require heavy new wiring and maybe even a new
service entrance. My neighbor with all-point-of-use including the
shower. The shower heater draws 80 amps at 240 volts.

My POU heaters are tiny and draw 30 amps at 240 volts. They are
tucked up under the sinks so that the flex lines to the valves connect
directly to the heater. Water is hot in seconds without the losses of
a circulating system.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address


What is the flow rate of that shower, and how hot does it get? Somehow that seems like a LOT of power.
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"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 8:58:58 AM UTC-4, Neon John wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 22:58:35 -0400, Gerry
wrote:


not taking into account the heating provided to the house by the
circulating hot water - an asset in the winter, a cost for cooling
in
summer


That would be zero in both seasons since almost all his plumbing is
in
his unconditioned basement where the ceiling (house floors) are
insulated.

It's much better to install point-of-use heaters on all the sinks.
Just leave the shower like it is since point-of-use heaters with
that
much heating capacity require heavy new wiring and maybe even a new
service entrance. My neighbor with all-point-of-use including the
shower. The shower heater draws 80 amps at 240 volts.

My POU heaters are tiny and draw 30 amps at 240 volts. They are
tucked up under the sinks so that the flex lines to the valves
connect
directly to the heater. Water is hot in seconds without the losses
of
a circulating system.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address


What is the flow rate of that shower, and how hot does it get?
Somehow that seems like a LOT of power.


I wired the upper and lower elements to separate breakers and leave
only the upper on most of the time, set at 120F. It acts somewhat like
a POU heater and can keep up with my sink spray shower on 240V, 18A
(measured, not the breaker rating). When it kicks in during a shower
the water heats up and I have to add a little more cold.

The lower element thermostat is turned all the way up to heat the full
40 gallons to 145-150F to last through several days of a power outage
and also sterilize any biofilm that may have accumulated in the lower
part of the tank.

We can wire our own residences here, and I learned to be an industrial
electrician. I can't recommend or further describe this energy saving
method to others. Having a warm zone in the tank could be hazardous
with untreated well water.
-jsw


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On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 06:15:17 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 8:58:58 AM UTC-4, Neon John wrote:


It's much better to install point-of-use heaters on all the sinks.
Just leave the shower like it is since point-of-use heaters with that
much heating capacity require heavy new wiring and maybe even a new
service entrance. My neighbor with all-point-of-use including the
shower. The shower heater draws 80 amps at 240 volts.



What is the flow rate of that shower, and how hot does it get? Somehow that seems like a LOT of power.


No knowledge the flow rate but it will be modest - probably about 2.5
gallons per minute. Water has a very high specific heat so it takes a
lot of energy to raise the temperature of a flowing stream. The
standard for the industry is 100 deg F rise.

I know the current draw from the nameplate. It contains two heating
chambers in hydro parallel, each fed by a 40 amp branch. Last year I
replaced a plastic heating chamber for him after it froze and cracked.

Quite small and uses direct heating. Two electrodes that look like
either stainless steel or nickel are immersed directly in the water
stream. It has a little control board that phase angle modulates the
current feed to maintain a constant temperature, even at low flows.

Last year he asked me to design an automatic standby generator system
for his house. The loads worked out to require the 27kW Generac
automatic system and some elementary load management during an outage.
The shower heater represents the majority of the load, though his
electric range, heat pump and dryer kick in pretty large loads
themselves.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address



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On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 3:45:10 PM UTC-4, wrote:


Eric


If I had any knowledge in doing what you want to do, I would have given you a better answer. But as it was, I told you what my thoughts were. No, they did not solve your problem. But I replied with what I think is a better solution, but one that takes more work and work that you do not want to do.

Sorry about that. Next time ask a question about something I know the answer to.

Dan

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How far is the tank and pump run going to be ? Is it all insulated ?
I have known people that turned off the recirc. pump and did without it
as it ran far to much money out of the bank to the electric company.

If the far end is a xyz - then get a local demand heater in line that
your tank feeds. So the local demand doesn't work much if only at
startup. Doesn't have to be a monster just heat the water between it
and the hot water heater and if the pipe is insulated it turns off until
you run the tank cool and then you always get hot from the local.

Martin


On 6/15/2017 2:45 PM, wrote:
Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation. I
explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were
responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In
fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out.
There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem with
posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions here
and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the
questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help.
****.
Eric

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On 6/23/2017 10:03 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
How far is the tank and pump run going to be ? Is it all insulated ?
I have known people that turned off the recirc. pump and did without it
as it ran far to much money out of the bank to the electric company.

If the far end is a xyz - then get a local demand heater in line that
your tank feeds. So the local demand doesn't work much if only at
startup. Doesn't have to be a monster just heat the water between it
and the hot water heater and if the pipe is insulated it turns off until
you run the tank cool and then you always get hot from the local.

Martin


I just today did exactly that , using a 2.5 gallon slightly-used
heater I bought from an ad in the local paper . I was going to buy new
but ... now we get 140° water from the sink faucet in 6 seconds , hot
from the main tank takes long enough that the dishwasher was having
extended run times because the water wasn't hot enough .
--
Snag

On 6/15/2017 2:45 PM, wrote:
Several days ago I posted a question about hot water recirculation. I
explained what I wanted to do and NOBODY addressed it. There were
responses but these responses did not mention my main question. In
fact responses included options which I had explicitly ruled out.
There used to be a wealth of good advice here. What's the problem with
posting something that is appropriate? When folks post questions here
and I think I can help I post replies that actually address the
questions. I don't post ruminations that won't help.
****.
Eric


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