http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wysAAO...VN/s-l1600.jpg

I am in a metric country, but I'm sure the principal applies in North America as well.

This is a very common socket kit here. There are many brands, many manufacturers, all are basically the same. The box is very useful, except for one incredible annoyance. The sockets go in 1mm increments from maybe 4 or 5 up to 14mm. No one has ever used the 14mm socket, ever. Why wouldn't they leave it off, and use a 15mm socket in that last place instead?

And, why don't other people ask a questions like this?

On 5/15/2017 6:27 AM, robobass wrote:
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wysAAO...VN/s-l1600.jpg

I am in a metric country, but I'm sure the principal applies in North America as well.

This is a very common socket kit here. There are many brands, many manufacturers, all are basically the same. The box is very useful, except for one incredible annoyance. The sockets go in 1mm increments from maybe 4 or 5 up to 14mm. No one has ever used the 14mm socket, ever. Why wouldn't they leave it off, and use a 15mm socket in that last place instead?

And, why don't other people ask a questions like this?

Really ? I use a 14mm socket pretty often . In this case , even a
14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle .

--

Snag

I presented this badly. what I mean to say is that with lots of things I buy, I encounter incredibly stupid design decisions. Maybe it makes the product look better, or seem better at first glance, but once you use the product it is quickly obvious that functionality was not the priority.

On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 2:06:44 PM UTC+2, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 5/15/2017 6:27 AM, robobass wrote:
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wysAAO...VN/s-l1600.jpg

I am in a metric country, but I'm sure the principal applies in North America as well.

This is a very common socket kit here. There are many brands, many manufacturers, all are basically the same. The box is very useful, except for one incredible annoyance. The sockets go in 1mm increments from maybe 4 or 5 up to 14mm. No one has ever used the 14mm socket, ever. Why wouldn't they leave it off, and use a 15mm socket in that last place instead?

And, why don't other people ask a questions like this?

Really ? I use a 14mm socket pretty often . In this case , even a
14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle .

--

Snag

Really? On what? I live in Germany. I own machines, two cars, and many bicycles. I don't think I've ever used a 14mm socket. It's like 8, 10, 13, 15, 17, 19,...
12, 16, 18 once every tenth blue moon maybe, but never 14.

"14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle"
If this is true, you are certainly working on different kinds of things than me.

On Mon, 15 May 2017 05:12:03 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

I presented this badly. what I mean to say is that with lots of things I buy, I encounter incredibly stupid design decisions. Maybe it makes the product look better, or seem better at first glance, but once you use the product it is quickly obvious that functionality was not the priority.

I have a feeling that many 'sets' are put together by people who have
no idea of their use or practicality of the design, as you said.

A 14mm socket will double for 9/16" if used on SAE hardware.

Larger sizes, 15 17 19 are common, but I had to buy a 18mm for use on
some of the first Chevy front ends back in the early '80s.

My parents bought a Craftsman rollaway toolset when I got my diploma
from UTI in '72. In it was a set like you show, but the main
difference was the spinner. It had a screwdriver handle with a 1/4"
square end. The thing I really liked about that set was the spinner
had an inset 1/4" square socket in the back. I can't tell you how
many times I praised the guy who thought that up, because running
hard-to-spin nuts down or properly torquing hardware with the spinner
handle is much harder with a spinner and quite easy with the ratchet
on the back end. It's one of the few things I praised Crapsman for,
because a decade later, I had lost a literal pound of flesh and bucket
of blood from their tools disintegrating within my grasp as I worked.
At that point, I was using power tools only half the time since some
of the angles you work at in the auto industry prevents you from
seeing the bolt you're working on and there's no room for power. So,
when you're giving it everything you have and the tool breaks, your
hands move quickly into sharp and immovable objects, before you can
pull them back. I had one lady come into the shop one day while I was
putting gauze on my hand and heard her scream to the manager about the
blood on the engine of her car. He found me in the bathroom with the
first aid kit open and tols her "He'll wipe it off after he's done
treating his wound." and he walked away. I looked up, she looked
away, and we heard no more screeching that day. (Until I got to Searz
and slammed the broken ratchet down on the counter with my good hand.)
That was one day I got no **** from them about "intentionally breaking
tools". How's that for the Searz "Satisfaction Guarantee"?

When I went to Searz to replace that special spinner, they tried to
foist off a single ended POS on me. I went to the manager at that
Sears store and he wouln't budge, saying "We don't make those any
more. Take it or leave it." Since he also had not given me a money
back offer, I took it to Corporate. 20 minutes later, I finally got a
guy from India on the Searz Customer Service line (one of the earliest
displays of outsourcing CS I had seen) who finally had a check for $12
cut for me. I looked high and low for that replacement and only one
company made them, Carlyle. Almost a 3 weeks later, I found it and
picked one up at NAPA Auto Parts. NM64 is the part number, in case
anyone is interested. (Hmm, now CHT DH14, but NM64 gets you there.)

I had trouble with the name "spinner handle", as half the mfgrs call
the brace shape their spinner and half called them "speed handles".

Some designs just WORK! So there's the other half of this story, Rob.

--
The Federal budget is a complex document. However, working
for a President committed to keeping his promises means my
job is as simple as translating his words into numbers.
Mick Mulvaney, Director OMB

On 5/15/2017 7:59 AM, robobass wrote:
"14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle"
If this is true, you are certainly working on different kinds of things than me.

No **** Sherlock . I work on things like cars , motorcycles , and
other machinery as needed . I have the correct tools for most jobs , as
in 1/4" , 3/8" , and 1/2" drive socket sets - both deep and regular ,
and none of them are cheap ass Chinese pseudo-steel . I also have a
pretty well-equipped machine shop , so those tools I don't have and need
can often be made right here at home .

--

Snag

On Mon, 15 May 2017 08:42:44 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/15/2017 7:59 AM, robobass wrote:
"14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle"
If this is true, you are certainly working on different kinds of things than me.

No **** Sherlock . I work on things like cars , motorcycles , and
other machinery as needed . I have the correct tools for most jobs , as
in 1/4" , 3/8" , and 1/2" drive socket sets - both deep and regular ,
and none of them are cheap ass Chinese pseudo-steel . I also have a
pretty well-equipped machine shop , so those tools I don't have and need
can often be made right here at home .

--

Snag

On the slimmest chance there might be a newb reading, do not fall for
the _one must have "good"/expensive tools mantra_. I do more, and more
complicated things than most. That includes building a complex
aircraft and several homes. On my last move I had to leave most of my
tools behind. When I replaced the sockets, it was with two large,
identical sets of 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2" drive which cost less than $100
each. That's because I tend to lose them or weld them into other tools
before I break them, and because having duplicates saves time
searching for tools. My 3/4" set is also "Chinese pseudo steel," and I
haven't broken one of those either. The anti-cheap tool thing is more
of an ideology than a practicality. Buying what you can afford, and
using it, is a better mantra.

On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 3:39:50 PM UTC+2, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 5/15/2017 7:59 AM, robobass wrote:
"14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle"
If this is true, you are certainly working on different kinds of things than me.

No **** Sherlock . I work on things like cars , motorcycles , and
other machinery as needed . I have the correct tools for most jobs , as
in 1/4" , 3/8" , and 1/2" drive socket sets - both deep and regular ,
and none of them are cheap ass Chinese pseudo-steel . I also have a
pretty well-equipped machine shop , so those tools I don't have and need
can often be made right here at home .

--

Snag

I am not trying to get anyone's fur up here. I guess I should have posted in a different forum. I ask again, 1: Do you really use a 14mm socket? Do you actually encounter 14mm hex heads? Give me one example. If you are substituting it for a 9/16" then you should say so. That is not something which would come up in metric countries, and does not apply to my premise. Also to do so would be slovenly. Like using a Phillips tip to drive a Pozi screw. Real slop. If I did things like that, I wouldn't confess it on a public forum.

2. Where you need more torque for a 15mm head than you can get from a 1/4 drive ratchet? I drive old Alfa-Romeos and Saabs, so please don't try to tell me rust and frozen bolt stories. My cheap 1/4 drive kit is probably made in China, but it is still completely intact after many years. I naturally don't use it for serious suspension or exhaust work, but it gets almost all car and bike work done.

The whole point I was making is that the sellers don't consider the customer's needs. I guess I am alone, though. No one else seems to give a ****.

On Mon, 15 May 2017 04:27:58 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wysAAO...VN/s-l1600.jpg

I am in a metric country, but I'm sure the principal applies in North America as well.

This is a very common socket kit here. There are many brands, many manufacturers, all are basically the same. The box is very useful, except for one incredible annoyance. The sockets go in 1mm increments from maybe 4 or 5 up to 14mm. No one has ever used the 14mm socket, ever. Why wouldn't they leave it off, and use a 15mm socket in that last place instead?

And, why don't other people ask a questions like this?
Because there are several different metric "standards" and if you
work on Japanese stuff you WILL use the 14, and a 15 would be a total
waste.On a Chevy and most weiner wagons, you will never use a 14. Same
goes for 11 vs 10, Japs use 10, EVERYWHERE. GM and Wiener wagons use
11.
A lot of bikes use 15.

On Mon, 15 May 2017 05:12:03 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

I presented this badly. what I mean to say is that with lots of things I buy, I encounter incredibly stupid design decisions. Maybe it makes the product look better, or seem better at first glance, but once you use the product it is quickly obvious that functionality was not the priority.
The set is likely asian - Jap standard, not Euro.

On Mon, 15 May 2017 05:56:03 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 2:06:44 PM UTC+2, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 5/15/2017 6:27 AM, robobass wrote:
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wysAAO...VN/s-l1600.jpg

I am in a metric country, but I'm sure the principal applies in North America as well.

This is a very common socket kit here. There are many brands, many manufacturers, all are basically the same. The box is very useful, except for one incredible annoyance. The sockets go in 1mm increments from maybe 4 or 5 up to 14mm. No one has ever used the 14mm socket, ever. Why wouldn't they leave it off, and use a 15mm socket in that last place instead?

And, why don't other people ask a questions like this?

Really ? I use a 14mm socket pretty often . In this case , even a
14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle .

--

Snag

Really? On what? I live in Germany. I own machines, two cars, and many bicycles. I don't think I've ever used a 14mm socket. It's like 8, 10, 13, 15, 17, 19,...
12, 16, 18 once every tenth blue moon maybe, but never 14.
I was a mechanic here in (metric) Canada for many years - working
mostly on Japanese cars, where 8,10,12, 14 and 17mm wrnches will
handle over 90% of repairs. On a Jap vehicle I've NEVER used a 9, 11,
13, or 15mm wrench or socket.

On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 8:56:05 AM UTC-4, robobass wrote:
On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 2:06:44 PM UTC+2, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 5/15/2017 6:27 AM, robobass wrote:
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wysAAO...VN/s-l1600.jpg

I am in a metric country, but I'm sure the principal applies in North America as well.

This is a very common socket kit here. There are many brands, many manufacturers, all are basically the same. The box is very useful, except for one incredible annoyance. The sockets go in 1mm increments from maybe 4 or 5 up to 14mm. No one has ever used the 14mm socket, ever. Why wouldn't they leave it off, and use a 15mm socket in that last place instead?

And, why don't other people ask a questions like this?

Really ? I use a 14mm socket pretty often . In this case , even a
14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle .

--

Snag

Really? On what? I live in Germany. I own machines, two cars, and many bicycles. I don't think I've ever used a 14mm socket. It's like 8, 10, 13, 15, 17, 19,...
12, 16, 18 once every tenth blue moon maybe, but never 14.

14mm was the "reduced-size" Japanese standard for M10 bolt heads, 'way back, when they used JIS standards and before they went to ISO.

If you have an old Japanese bike or car, and if your metric set jumped from 13 to 15, you would be MUCH more ****ed off than you are about the 14 being included in your set. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 15 May 2017 06:22:47 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 15 May 2017 05:12:03 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

I presented this badly. what I mean to say is that with lots of things I buy, I encounter incredibly stupid design decisions. Maybe it makes the product look better, or seem better at first glance, but once you use the product it is quickly obvious that functionality was not the priority.

I have a feeling that many 'sets' are put together by people who have
no idea of their use or practicality of the design, as you said.

A 14mm socket will double for 9/16" if used on SAE hardware.

Larger sizes, 15 17 19 are common, but I had to buy a 18mm for use on
some of the first Chevy front ends back in the early '80s.

My parents bought a Craftsman rollaway toolset when I got my diploma
from UTI in '72. In it was a set like you show, but the main
difference was the spinner. It had a screwdriver handle with a 1/4"
square end. The thing I really liked about that set was the spinner
had an inset 1/4" square socket in the back. I can't tell you how
many times I praised the guy who thought that up, because running
hard-to-spin nuts down or properly torquing hardware with the spinner
handle is much harder with a spinner and quite easy with the ratchet
on the back end. It's one of the few things I praised Crapsman for,
because a decade later, I had lost a literal pound of flesh and bucket
of blood from their tools disintegrating within my grasp as I worked.
At that point, I was using power tools only half the time since some
of the angles you work at in the auto industry prevents you from
seeing the bolt you're working on and there's no room for power. So,
when you're giving it everything you have and the tool breaks, your
hands move quickly into sharp and immovable objects, before you can
pull them back. I had one lady come into the shop one day while I was
putting gauze on my hand and heard her scream to the manager about the
blood on the engine of her car. He found me in the bathroom with the
first aid kit open and tols her "He'll wipe it off after he's done
treating his wound." and he walked away. I looked up, she looked
away, and we heard no more screeching that day. (Until I got to Searz
and slammed the broken ratchet down on the counter with my good hand.)
That was one day I got no **** from them about "intentionally breaking
tools". How's that for the Searz "Satisfaction Guarantee"?


You were obviously not using the right tools. In over 25 years of
using mostly Craftsman tools in the trade I don't think I broke more
than 2 or 3 sockets, no extensions, ratchets, or "johnson bars". I
always used the largest drive that would do the job if things looked
like they would get tough. I still have the vast majority of my
Craftsman tools purchaced in 1969. 1/4 inch drive tools were only used
for bench work on alternators and starters and other similar stuff, or
in cramped quarters under the dash, etc. 3/8 for all the normal little
stuff, and almost exclusively 1/2 inch on all chassis stuff.

Gotta use the right tools for the job. A classmate of mine bought
"snap-off" tools at the same time I bough my Craftsman, and he had
replaced well over half by the time he finished his apprenticeship.
The only advantage to the SO tools was "Snappy" came to the shop in
his shiny truck aevery week or two to replace the broken crap, where I
had to drive to sears every 6 months to 2 years.

When I went to Searz to replace that special spinner, they tried to
foist off a single ended POS on me. I went to the manager at that
Sears store and he wouln't budge, saying "We don't make those any
more. Take it or leave it." Since he also had not given me a money
back offer, I took it to Corporate. 20 minutes later, I finally got a
guy from India on the Searz Customer Service line (one of the earliest
displays of outsourcing CS I had seen) who finally had a check for $12
cut for me. I looked high and low for that replacement and only one
company made them, Carlyle. Almost a 3 weeks later, I found it and
picked one up at NAPA Auto Parts. NM64 is the part number, in case
anyone is interested. (Hmm, now CHT DH14, but NM64 gets you there.)

I had trouble with the name "spinner handle", as half the mfgrs call
the brace shape their spinner and half called them "speed handles".

Williams, SK and Proto still make "fat handle extensions" in the guize
of nut-spinners. Personally, I use extentions for extensions, and a
"door knob" ratchet for a spinner. My "door knob" for the last 50
years has been an SK. I just bought a 3/8 and a 1/2 inch from Princess
Auto a few years ago.

Some designs just WORK! So there's the other half of this story, Rob.
Yup.

On Mon, 15 May 2017 07:14:09 -0700, Normal Person wrote:

On Mon, 15 May 2017 08:42:44 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/15/2017 7:59 AM, robobass wrote:
"14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle"
If this is true, you are certainly working on different kinds of things than me.

No **** Sherlock . I work on things like cars , motorcycles , and
other machinery as needed . I have the correct tools for most jobs , as
in 1/4" , 3/8" , and 1/2" drive socket sets - both deep and regular ,
and none of them are cheap ass Chinese pseudo-steel . I also have a
pretty well-equipped machine shop , so those tools I don't have and need
can often be made right here at home .

--

Snag

On the slimmest chance there might be a newb reading, do not fall for
the _one must have "good"/expensive tools mantra_. I do more, and more
complicated things than most. That includes building a complex
aircraft and several homes. On my last move I had to leave most of my
tools behind. When I replaced the sockets, it was with two large,
identical sets of 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2" drive which cost less than $100
each. That's because I tend to lose them or weld them into other tools
before I break them, and because having duplicates saves time
searching for tools. My 3/4" set is also "Chinese pseudo steel," and I
haven't broken one of those either. The anti-cheap tool thing is more
of an ideology than a practicality. Buying what you can afford, and
using it, is a better mantra.
Gotta remember, there is inexpensive, and then there is CHEAP. No
problem with inexpensive quality tools - and there are a LOT of them
available today. BIG problem with "cheap" tools, at any price.

Today I could replace my entire set of mechanics tools with decent
quality stuff for just over half, in TODAY'S dollars, what I paid for
my tools in 1969-=1975 dollars. That is a HUGE difference.

I spent about 20 grand on mechanics tools up to 1990, the vast
majority prior to 1975. I started buying tools (a $499 "starter set")
back in 1969, when I was earning less than $1.50 per hour and driving
cars that cost less than 1/4 that price - - -

On Mon, 15 May 2017 08:23:09 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

1: Do you really use a 14mm socket?

Yes

Do you actually encounter 14mm hex heads?

Yes

Give me one example.

Both rear engine mounting bolts on my bike. (Yamaha FJR)

14mm isn't uncommon. Here are a couple.
https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/11120395
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Banjo-bolt-w...W76 O&vxp=mtr

And you'll find it here in the JIS column.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/me...ze-d_1458.html

OK then. I stand corrected. My last Japanese car was an RX-2, which bit the dust in 1981. Since then it has been VW, Saab, or now I am a real sucker for Alfa Romeo. Still... All tools, machines, bikes, pretty much every hex head I have experienced here in Europe, uses 10, 13, 15,17, 19, etc. I own lathes, table saws, milling machines...not to mention bicycles. Never seen a 14mm hex head. But I haven't owned a Toyota!

On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 12:06:12 PM UTC-4, robobass wrote:
OK then. I stand corrected. My last Japanese car was an RX-2, which bit the dust in 1981. Since then it has been VW, Saab, or now I am a real sucker for Alfa Romeo. Still... All tools, machines, bikes, pretty much every hex head I have experienced here in Europe, uses 10, 13, 15,17, 19, etc. I own lathes, table saws, milling machines...not to mention bicycles. Never seen a 14mm hex head. But I haven't owned a Toyota!

I was a real sucker for Alfa Romeo, too. I owned one each '57 and '58 Giullietta Spiders, one of which I drove through SCCA driver's school. Years later, I wrote ad copy for Alfa Romeo when they were headquartered here in NJ.

But they tended to go for the fine-pitch series of metric threads, which were all but unavailable here at the time. I actually had to order some from Italy in one case.

And then there was the miserable bronze distributor drive gear on my '57 that gave me ignition-timing hell. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 6:17:00 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 12:06:12 PM UTC-4, robobass wrote:
OK then. I stand corrected. My last Japanese car was an RX-2, which bit the dust in 1981. Since then it has been VW, Saab, or now I am a real sucker for Alfa Romeo. Still... All tools, machines, bikes, pretty much every hex head I have experienced here in Europe, uses 10, 13, 15,17, 19, etc. I own lathes, table saws, milling machines...not to mention bicycles. Never seen a 14mm hex head. But I haven't owned a Toyota!

I was a real sucker for Alfa Romeo, too. I owned one each '57 and '58 Giullietta Spiders, one of which I drove through SCCA driver's school. Years later, I wrote ad copy for Alfa Romeo when they were headquartered here in NJ.

But they tended to go for the fine-pitch series of metric threads, which were all but unavailable here at the time. I actually had to order some from Italy in one case.

And then there was the miserable bronze distributor drive gear on my '57 that gave me ignition-timing hell. g

--
Ed Huntress

Ed,
Alfas are not so exotic now, I'm sorry to say. They are owned by Fiat, from which you can get your parts, and all screws are Euro standard. The semi-recent ones are still real bait for enthusiasts, though. My '02 2 liter has more dents than a trash can, but I pass motorcycles in the Eifel.

On Mon, 15 May 2017 08:23:09 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 3:39:50 PM UTC+2, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 5/15/2017 7:59 AM, robobass wrote:
"14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle"
If this is true, you are certainly working on different kinds of things than me.

No **** Sherlock . I work on things like cars , motorcycles , and
other machinery as needed . I have the correct tools for most jobs , as
in 1/4" , 3/8" , and 1/2" drive socket sets - both deep and regular ,
and none of them are cheap ass Chinese pseudo-steel . I also have a
pretty well-equipped machine shop , so those tools I don't have and need
can often be made right here at home .

--

Snag

I am not trying to get anyone's fur up here. I guess I should have posted in a different forum. I ask again, 1: Do you really use a 14mm socket? Do you actually encounter 14mm hex heads? Give me one example. If you are substituting it for a 9/16" then you should say so. That is not something which would come up in metric countries, and does not apply to my premise. Also to do so would be slovenly. Like using a Phillips tip to drive a Pozi screw. Real slop. If I did things like that, I wouldn't confess it on a public forum.

2. Where you need more torque for a 15mm head than you can get from a 1/4 drive ratchet? I drive old Alfa-Romeos and Saabs, so please don't try to tell me rust and frozen bolt stories. My cheap 1/4 drive kit is probably made in China, but it is still completely intact after many years. I naturally don't use it for serious suspension or exhaust work, but it gets almost all car and bike work done.

The whole point I was making is that the sellers don't consider the customer's needs. I guess I am alone, though. No one else seems to give a ****.
I have two Toyota vehicles. One a 1990s truck and the other a 2006
Scion Xb. Both use 14mm hex head fasteners.
Eric

On Mon, 15 May 2017 09:06:08 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

OK then. I stand corrected. My last Japanese car was an RX-2, which bit the dust in 1981. Since then it has been VW, Saab, or now I am a real sucker for Alfa Romeo. Still... All tools, machines, bikes, pretty much every hex head I have experienced here in Europe, uses 10, 13, 15,17, 19, etc. I own lathes, table saws, milling machines...not to mention bicycles. Never seen a 14mm hex head. But I haven't owned a Toyota!
I used to dive VW Bugs. I really liked those cars. I would just beat
the crap out of them driving fast on dirt roads and had to give up
driving them because I abused 'em so much and it got expensive. The
Bugs used almost all odd number metric sized fastener hex heads. My
tool kits for these cars had 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19mm sized
sockets and wrenches. When I started driving japanese cars I had to
make sure I had even number metric tools. So I get where you are
coming from.
Eric

OK. You guys have got me on the 14mm socket thing. Never saw that coming! But now explain this:
I have two little kids. In all of the cars I have owned in the last 20 years except one, there were seat belts for three passengers in the back. The receiver for the center seat belt and a side one were adjacent and visually nearly indistinguishable, but not interchangeable. The inconvenience of having to get the belt around a child seat and blindly find the seat belt receiver is in itself a chore. Getting it wrong on the first try and having to fish for the other one is just punishment. There is absolutely no reason for a bias. The receivers mount right next to each other, and can easily be overlapped during use. Explain this one to me.

"robobass" wrote in message
...
OK then. I stand corrected. My last Japanese car was an RX-2, which
bit the dust in 1981. Since then it has been VW, Saab, or now I am a
real sucker for Alfa Romeo. Still... All tools, machines, bikes,
pretty much every hex head I have experienced here in Europe, uses 10,
13, 15,17, 19, etc. I own lathes, table saws, milling machines...not
to mention bicycles. Never seen a 14mm hex head. But I haven't owned a
Toyota!

The old Honda tool kit wrenches in my collection are 8 + 12 and 10 +
14.
-jsw

On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 6:44:50 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Mon, 15 May 2017 09:06:08 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

OK then. I stand corrected. My last Japanese car was an RX-2, which bit the dust in 1981. Since then it has been VW, Saab, or now I am a real sucker for Alfa Romeo. Still... All tools, machines, bikes, pretty much every hex head I have experienced here in Europe, uses 10, 13, 15,17, 19, etc. I own lathes, table saws, milling machines...not to mention bicycles. Never seen a 14mm hex head. But I haven't owned a Toyota!
I used to dive VW Bugs. I really liked those cars. I would just beat
the crap out of them driving fast on dirt roads and had to give up
driving them because I abused 'em so much and it got expensive. The
Bugs used almost all odd number metric sized fastener hex heads. My
tool kits for these cars had 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19mm sized
sockets and wrenches. When I started driving japanese cars I had to
make sure I had even number metric tools. So I get where you are
coming from.
Eric

Eric, yes, I started my VW experience with an '82 Rabbit. Never was there a car more fun to beat the **** out of!

On Mon, 15 May 2017 05:56:03 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 2:06:44 PM UTC+2, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 5/15/2017 6:27 AM, robobass wrote:
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wysAAO...VN/s-l1600.jpg

I am in a metric country, but I'm sure the principal applies in North America as well.

This is a very common socket kit here. There are many brands, many manufacturers, all are basically the same. The box is very useful, except for one incredible annoyance. The sockets go in 1mm increments from maybe 4 or 5 up to 14mm. No one has ever used the 14mm socket, ever. Why wouldn't they leave it off, and use a 15mm socket in that last place instead?

And, why don't other people ask a questions like this?

Really ? I use a 14mm socket pretty often . In this case , even a
14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle .

--

Snag

Really? On what? I live in Germany. I own machines, two cars, and many bicycles. I don't think I've ever used a 14mm socket. It's like 8, 10, 13, 15, 17, 19,...
12, 16, 18 once every tenth blue moon maybe, but never 14.


I repair machinery and motorcycles and 14 is very common.


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On Mon, 15 May 2017 08:42:44 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/15/2017 7:59 AM, robobass wrote:
"14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle"
If this is true, you are certainly working on different kinds of things than me.

No **** Sherlock . I work on things like cars , motorcycles , and
other machinery as needed . I have the correct tools for most jobs , as
in 1/4" , 3/8" , and 1/2" drive socket sets - both deep and regular ,
and none of them are cheap ass Chinese pseudo-steel . I also have a
pretty well-equipped machine shop , so those tools I don't have and need
can often be made right here at home .

--

Snag


And of course some of us also use 3/4 and 1" drive socket sets on a
regular basis. And have the air tools to run them.


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On Mon, 15 May 2017 08:23:09 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 3:39:50 PM UTC+2, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 5/15/2017 7:59 AM, robobass wrote:
"14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle"
If this is true, you are certainly working on different kinds of things than me.

No **** Sherlock . I work on things like cars , motorcycles , and
other machinery as needed . I have the correct tools for most jobs , as
in 1/4" , 3/8" , and 1/2" drive socket sets - both deep and regular ,
and none of them are cheap ass Chinese pseudo-steel . I also have a
pretty well-equipped machine shop , so those tools I don't have and need
can often be made right here at home .

--

Snag

I am not trying to get anyone's fur up here. I guess I should have posted in a different forum. I ask again, 1: Do you really use a 14mm socket? Do you actually encounter 14mm hex heads? Give me one example. If you are substituting it for a 9/16" then you should say so. That is not something which would come up in metric countries, and does not apply to my premise. Also to do so would be slovenly. Like using a Phillips tip to drive a Pozi screw. Real slop. If I did things like that, I wouldn't confess it on a public forum.

2. Where you need more torque for a 15mm head than you can get from a 1/4 drive ratchet? I drive old Alfa-Romeos and Saabs, so please don't try to tell me rust and frozen bolt stories. My cheap 1/4 drive kit is probably made in China, but it is still completely intact after many years. I naturally don't use it for serious suspension or exhaust work, but it gets almost all car and bike work done.

The whole point I was making is that the sellers don't consider the customer's needs. I guess I am alone, though. No one else seems to give a ****.


Ive bought socket sets when not reading the label and got to the
jobsite and found that they were missing the 15 and the 9 and
11...which were part of the tools that I needed on that particular
job.

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On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 12:55:10 PM UTC-4, robobass wrote:
OK. You guys have got me on the 14mm socket thing. Never saw that coming! But now explain this:
I have two little kids. In all of the cars I have owned in the last 20 years except one, there were seat belts for three passengers in the back. The receiver for the center seat belt and a side one were adjacent and visually nearly indistinguishable, but not interchangeable. The inconvenience of having to get the belt around a child seat and blindly find the seat belt receiver is in itself a chore. Getting it wrong on the first try and having to fish for the other one is just punishment. There is absolutely no reason for a bias. The receivers mount right next to each other, and can easily be overlapped during use. Explain this one to me.

I've had the same issue. Finally, I wrapped a piece of masking tape around the one that was for the middle-seat belt. Frustration solved.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 15 May 2017 09:58:31 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


I repair ... motorcycles

Nope. But what we really want to hear about is the aerospace. Any 14mm
on the rockets you work on?

On Mon, 15 May 2017 12:03:15 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 15 May 2017 07:14:09 -0700, Normal Person wrote:

On Mon, 15 May 2017 08:42:44 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 5/15/2017 7:59 AM, robobass wrote:
"14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle"
If this is true, you are certainly working on different kinds of things than me.

No **** Sherlock . I work on things like cars , motorcycles , and
other machinery as needed . I have the correct tools for most jobs , as
in 1/4" , 3/8" , and 1/2" drive socket sets - both deep and regular ,
and none of them are cheap ass Chinese pseudo-steel . I also have a
pretty well-equipped machine shop , so those tools I don't have and need
can often be made right here at home .

--

Snag

On the slimmest chance there might be a newb reading, do not fall for
the _one must have "good"/expensive tools mantra_. I do more, and more
complicated things than most. That includes building a complex
aircraft and several homes. On my last move I had to leave most of my
tools behind. When I replaced the sockets, it was with two large,
identical sets of 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2" drive which cost less than $100
each. That's because I tend to lose them or weld them into other tools
before I break them, and because having duplicates saves time
searching for tools. My 3/4" set is also "Chinese pseudo steel," and I
haven't broken one of those either. The anti-cheap tool thing is more
of an ideology than a practicality. Buying what you can afford, and
using it, is a better mantra.
Gotta remember, there is inexpensive, and then there is CHEAP. No
problem with inexpensive quality tools - and there are a LOT of them
available today. BIG problem with "cheap" tools, at any price.

Today I could replace my entire set of mechanics tools with decent
quality stuff for just over half, in TODAY'S dollars, what I paid for
my tools in 1969-=1975 dollars. That is a HUGE difference.

I spent about 20 grand on mechanics tools up to 1990, the vast
majority prior to 1975. I started buying tools (a $499 "starter set")
back in 1969, when I was earning less than $1.50 per hour and driving
cars that cost less than 1/4 that price - - -

I actually snapped a Tawanese 15/16, 1/2" drive socket last Thursday.
Id had it for years. Putting the breaker bar and then sliding the 6
foot snipe on it and then bouncing, while hanging from it with my feet
18" off the floor finally discovered its breaking point. Shrug

So I grabbed one of my Craftsman sockets out of the other tool box and
broke the bolt free, while doing the same thing. Though..come to
think on it..the busted one was a 12 point, while the Craftsman was a
6 point.

Gunner

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On Mon, 15 May 2017 05:12:03 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

I presented this badly. what I mean to say is that with lots of things I buy, I encounter incredibly stupid design decisions. Maybe it makes the product look better, or seem better at first glance, but once you use the product it is quickly obvious that functionality was not the priority.

**** happens. So pay more attention to what you are buying.


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On Mon, 15 May 2017 10:00:18 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


And of course some of us also use 3/4 and 1" drive socket sets on a
regular basis. And have the air tools to run them.

Where do you and the dogs sleep amongst all that alleged stuff? The
Amazing Wieber and the Sheraton Caravan remind me of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHUSx2p4Td8

On Mon, 15 May 2017 05:59:37 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:


"14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle"
If this is true, you are certainly working on different kinds of things than me.

I experimented with my Bosch 14.4v Impactor (1/4" hex drive) and a
13/16" (metric equiv: 21mm) socket and successfully removed my F-150
wheel. That's 90 foot pounds of torque to install, usually up to
120ft/lb to remove. I'd say that 1/4" can handle a 14mm socket's
demands, although I did put a twist in an HF 1/4hex-3/8square adaptor
once building a porch. Those 1/2"x8" galv bolts going into 1902 wood
beams under the house were tough, even though I drilled pilot holes.
That took the larger of my drills to accomplish, but I got the holes
drilled and the ledger board installed properly with the impactor. The
adaptor twisted about 20-degrees from the repeated hammering. Wow!

--
In today’s academia and mainstream media,
we’re all guilty of hate until proven leftist.

--Robert Knight, senior fellow, American Civil Rights Union

On Mon, 15 May 2017 11:37:54 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 15 May 2017 04:27:58 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wysAAO...VN/s-l1600.jpg

I am in a metric country, but I'm sure the principal applies in North America as well.

This is a very common socket kit here. There are many brands, many manufacturers, all are basically the same. The box is very useful, except for one incredible annoyance. The sockets go in 1mm increments from maybe 4 or 5 up to 14mm. No one has ever used the 14mm socket, ever. Why wouldn't they leave it off, and use a 15mm socket in that last place instead?

And, why don't other people ask a questions like this?
Because there are several different metric "standards" and if you
work on Japanese stuff you WILL use the 14, and a 15 would be a total
waste.On a Chevy and most weiner wagons, you will never use a 14. Same
goes for 11 vs 10, Japs use 10, EVERYWHERE. GM and Wiener wagons use
11.
A lot of bikes use 15.


As a side note, just to confuse the situation....Im still looking for
a 3/8 drive set of Wentworth sockets, tooth count not important.

Gunner, British motorcycle owner Royal Enfield Super Meteor, (my BMW
has all the proper metric tools..of course.) and the Triumph 650 is
actually ASA..a 1972..but the Belgian sidecar is metric..so I carry 2
sets there)



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On Mon, 15 May 2017 11:56:52 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 15 May 2017 06:22:47 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 15 May 2017 05:12:03 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

I presented this badly. what I mean to say is that with lots of things I buy, I encounter incredibly stupid design decisions. Maybe it makes the product look better, or seem better at first glance, but once you use the product it is quickly obvious that functionality was not the priority.

I have a feeling that many 'sets' are put together by people who have
no idea of their use or practicality of the design, as you said.

A 14mm socket will double for 9/16" if used on SAE hardware.

Larger sizes, 15 17 19 are common, but I had to buy a 18mm for use on
some of the first Chevy front ends back in the early '80s.

My parents bought a Craftsman rollaway toolset when I got my diploma
from UTI in '72. In it was a set like you show, but the main
difference was the spinner. It had a screwdriver handle with a 1/4"
square end. The thing I really liked about that set was the spinner
had an inset 1/4" square socket in the back. I can't tell you how
many times I praised the guy who thought that up, because running
hard-to-spin nuts down or properly torquing hardware with the spinner
handle is much harder with a spinner and quite easy with the ratchet
on the back end. It's one of the few things I praised Crapsman for,
because a decade later, I had lost a literal pound of flesh and bucket
of blood from their tools disintegrating within my grasp as I worked.
At that point, I was using power tools only half the time since some
of the angles you work at in the auto industry prevents you from
seeing the bolt you're working on and there's no room for power. So,
when you're giving it everything you have and the tool breaks, your
hands move quickly into sharp and immovable objects, before you can
pull them back. I had one lady come into the shop one day while I was
putting gauze on my hand and heard her scream to the manager about the
blood on the engine of her car. He found me in the bathroom with the
first aid kit open and tols her "He'll wipe it off after he's done
treating his wound." and he walked away. I looked up, she looked
away, and we heard no more screeching that day. (Until I got to Searz
and slammed the broken ratchet down on the counter with my good hand.)
That was one day I got no **** from them about "intentionally breaking
tools". How's that for the Searz "Satisfaction Guarantee"?


You were obviously not using the right tools.

Sorry, clare, but you're flat wrong. I was taught by my father to
properly use and care for tools. It was reinforced by my schooling at
Universal Technical Institute.


In over 25 years of
using mostly Craftsman tools in the trade I don't think I broke more
than 2 or 3 sockets, no extensions, ratchets, or "johnson bars". I

Most of it was hand use of 1/2" sockets and ratchets. I think I did
lose a 3/8 extension once, but it was for a lost ball. It wouldn't
keep the socket on it.

I wore out the 1/2" ratchet, and when I replaced it, I was given cheap
Chinese crap. This is when Searz first started sourcing Crapsman
tools offshore, circa 1979-1980. My toolset was a decade old, and
most of the steel was good. But once they wore out or broke, the
replacements were all ****. I was driving to Searz twice a week
sometimes. The crap sockets would split cleanly in half with a POP.
Ratchets would lose their teeth and I'd lose knuckles and red stuff.
I wasn't abusing tools. I was abusing myself by using what Crapsman
got when it changed tool sources.


always used the largest drive that would do the job if things looked
like they would get tough. I still have the vast majority of my
Craftsman tools purchaced in 1969.

As do I. I've worn out a couple 3/8 and 1/4 ratchets, but lifetime
guarantee is lifetime guarantee. I had to fight the tool managers and
store managers over some of them, but I always showed them the square
drive socket ends and NEVER could they see power tool abuse on and of
them. I worked for a body shop and did a lot of tough jobs regular
mechanics wouldn't. When I worked on the A111 rack, I used hand tools
on the suspension to prevent damage to the wheel sensors.

And some of the stuff I replaced was from wear. The problem was that
when I wore something out at that time, it was replaced with stuff so
cheap that Harbor Fright would never deign to sell it. I often talked
the managers into replacing the 12pt sockets with 6pt (the 3rd or 4th
time), and I guess they were made either with real steel or by another
mfgr, as I never had to replace them again.


1/4 inch drive tools were only used
for bench work on alternators and starters and other similar stuff, or
in cramped quarters under the dash, etc. 3/8 for all the normal little
stuff, and almost exclusively 1/2 inch on all chassis stuff.

Gotta use the right tools for the job. A classmate of mine bought
"snap-off" tools at the same time I bough my Craftsman, and he had
replaced well over half by the time he finished his apprenticeship.

Unreal! How did he manage that? When I first got my pneumatic tools,
I was told that the chrome sockets would not hold up to them for long,
so I bought specific impact sockets and extensions for the heavy stuff
and the sockets I most often used with the pneumatics. But I still
used the chrome sockets with the butterfly 3/8" and air ratchet and
had no trouble.


The only advantage to the SO tools was "Snappy" came to the shop in
his shiny truck aevery week or two to replace the broken crap, where I
had to drive to sears every 6 months to 2 years.

You got lucky and never broke anything while they were sourcing ****.
I think it cost them so much the first year, they quickly resourced
and got real steel tools after that, because my problems finally
stopped. But I'd lost a ****load of skin and blood over it, and I'm
still mad as hell at them for it. I also sourced replacement tools
from SnapOn (still cringing at the prices), Cornwall, and MAC.


--
In today’s academia and mainstream media,
we’re all guilty of hate until proven leftist.

--Robert Knight, senior fellow, American Civil Rights Union

On 5/15/2017 10:23 AM, robobass wrote:
On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 3:39:50 PM UTC+2, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 5/15/2017 7:59 AM, robobass wrote:
"14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle"
If this is true, you are certainly working on different kinds of things than me.

No **** Sherlock . I work on things like cars , motorcycles , and
other machinery as needed . I have the correct tools for most jobs , as
in 1/4" , 3/8" , and 1/2" drive socket sets - both deep and regular ,
and none of them are cheap ass Chinese pseudo-steel . I also have a
pretty well-equipped machine shop , so those tools I don't have and need
can often be made right here at home .

--

Snag
I am not trying to get anyone's fur up here. I guess I should have posted in a different forum. I ask again, 1: Do you really use a 14mm socket? Do you actually encounter 14mm hex heads? Give me one example. If you are substituting it for a 9/16" then you should say so. That is not something which would come up in metric countries, and does not apply to my premise. Also to do so would be slovenly. Like using a Phillips tip to drive a Pozi screw. Real slop. If I did things like that, I wouldn't confess it on a public forum.

Oh Holy one ... are you saying you NEVER EVER used a screwdriver to -
for instance - pry the lid off a paint can ??
As far as an example , the oil drain plug on my '99 Toyota 4Runner is
14 mm .

2. Where you need more torque for a 15mm head than you can get from a 1/4 drive ratchet? I drive old Alfa-Romeos and Saabs, so please don't try to tell me rust and frozen bolt stories. My cheap 1/4 drive kit is probably made in China, but it is still completely intact after many years. I naturally don't use it for serious suspension or exhaust work, but it gets almost all car and bike work done.

Head bolts and suspension components both use some 15mm bolts . I'd
use a 1/4" drive on neither .


The whole point I was making is that the sellers don't consider the customer's needs. I guess I am alone, though. No one else seems to give a ****.

No , you're not alone . And sellers MUST consider buyer's needs/wants
.. If they ain't buyin' there's no sense in trying to sell a particular
item . Oh , and this is appropriate for this forum - and my fur ain't up
, I'm just expressing my opinion ...

--

Snag

On Mon, 15 May 2017 10:27:40 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


Im still looking for
a 3/8 drive set of Wentworth sockets

Why? Years ago, perhaps decades, you rescued some old motorcycles from
the scrapyard. If you haven't done anything with them by now then you
never will.

Gunner, British motorcycle owner Royal Enfield Super Meteor, (my BMW
has all the proper metric tools..of course.) and the Triumph 650 is
actually ASA..a 1972..

Elaborating on your scrap pile does nothing to prove you work on
motorcycles.

but the Belgian sidecar is metric..so I carry 2
sets there)

LOL Carry them to where? None of that crap has ever moved because
you're too busy online, pretending, instead of working. Any 16 year
old with a licensed moped has managed what you cannot.

robobass wrote:

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wysAAO...VN/s-l1600.jpg

I am in a metric country, but I'm sure the principal applies in North
America as well.

This is a very common socket kit here. There are many brands, many
manufacturers, all are basically the same. The box is very useful, except
for one incredible annoyance. The sockets go in 1mm increments from maybe
4 or 5 up to 14mm. No one has ever used the 14mm socket, ever. Why
wouldn't they leave it off, and use a 15mm socket in that last place
instead?
Boy, LOTS of stuff on my Honda and Toyota cars are 14mm. Oil drain plugs
come to mind, but a lot of the mid-sized body fasteners are also 14mm.

Jon

On Mon, 15 May 2017 08:23:09 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:

On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 3:39:50 PM UTC+2, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 5/15/2017 7:59 AM, robobass wrote:
"14mm might be too big for the amount of torque that 1/4" can handle"
If this is true, you are certainly working on different kinds of things than me.

No **** Sherlock . I work on things like cars , motorcycles , and
other machinery as needed . I have the correct tools for most jobs , as
in 1/4" , 3/8" , and 1/2" drive socket sets - both deep and regular ,
and none of them are cheap ass Chinese pseudo-steel . I also have a
pretty well-equipped machine shop , so those tools I don't have and need
can often be made right here at home .

--

Snag

I am not trying to get anyone's fur up here. I guess I should have posted in a different forum. I ask again, 1: Do you really use a 14mm socket? Do you actually encounter 14mm hex heads? Give me one example. If you are substituting it for a 9/16" then you should say so. That is not something which would come up in metric countries, and does not apply to my premise. Also to do so would be slovenly. Like using a Phillips tip to drive a Pozi screw. Real slop. If I did things like that, I wouldn't confess it on a public forum.

2. Where you need more torque for a 15mm head than you can get from a 1/4 drive ratchet? I drive old Alfa-Romeos and Saabs, so please don't try to tell me rust and frozen bolt stories. My cheap 1/4 drive kit is probably made in China, but it is still completely intact after many years. I naturally don't use it for serious suspension or exhaust work, but it gets almost all car and bike work done.

The whole point I was making is that the sellers don't consider the customer's needs. I guess I am alone, though. No one else seems to give a ****.
14 mm socket to remove exhaust nuts on Toyotas - your 1/4 drive set
would never stand up to that. Every 10mm bolt on every japanese or
Korean car ever built uses 14mm heads. (JIS standard)

Between all the standards, there are no 9, 20, 23, 25, 26, 28 or 29
mm hex heads . All the other sized are used.

ANSI and ISO use 7,8,10,153,16,18,21,24 and 30.
DIN uses 7,8,10,11,13,17,19,22,24,27 and 30
JIS uses 7,8,10,12,14,17,19 and 22

On Mon, 15 May 2017 09:55:07 -0700 (PDT), robobass
wrote:


MIME-Version: 1.0
OIverlapping the belts can affect their strength. The center belt HAS
to connect to the proper attachment to meat the engineering specs. The
only way to assure that happens is to "bastasrdize" the one connector