On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 14:17:14 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Ignoramus31823 fired this volley in
m:

i


I still want to know why the check/flow would:
1) Cause the system to take (much) longer to pump up, and
2) "Waste energy".

If you install a check valve/flow-control between the two tanks, so that
the reserve tank can only be filled through a small restriction, but can
dump instantly, any time its pressure is higher than 'system', then
where's the loss?

The small tank will pump up in about the same time as before, with the
only 'loss' being the small flow into the larger tank. The big tank comes
up to system pressure slowly; and as slowly as you want. Then, if you
demand more than the small tank can provide, the reserve will dump
_freely_ (without any significant pressure loss - maybe 1/2 psi) back
into the system.

This is a pretty common way to provide reserve short-term capacity
without increasing pump capacity.
???

So, (I mean it) please describe the problems so I can critique the method
myself. I just don't see the losses or problems you describe.

LLoyd

Or iggy can pick up a portable 110vt decent compressor with wheels and
plug it in where he needs the air. Thats probably the simplest and
easiest way to do it. Works great for painting small stuff too.


--
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Ignoramus31823 fired this volley in
:

If the "loss" that occurs during initial pumping up is small, then the
tank is slow to fill, and it means that it will not be filled fast
when the system reaches pressure.

So? You said you only need it for occasional "high flow" jobs. If you
need it to fill faster, install a manual valve to override the restrictor
when you absolutely have to, and let the pump work longer in one session.
(the total pump time will _always_ be the same per cubic foot of tank
capacity, so you save nothing in pump run time, either way. It either
runs in 'bursts' until it's filled the big tank, or it runs
continuously...total time is the same).

Again... remember that you're only drawing from that big tank when the
small one can't provide the flow you need.

LLoyd

it means that it will not be filled fast
when the system reaches pressure.



Let me revise my comment a little.

You're a math guy. How will the big tank _ever_ fill quickly, and still
not prevent you from getting full pressure quickly in the small tank?

Opening a 'pass-over' valve to the big tank once the small one is full
won't do it! It'll drop the system down to system peak divided by the
ratio of tank volumes the INSTANT you open it (well, within seconds). So
the pump will come back on, and now run an intolerable length of time
before you have enough pressure to work. You can't have 'quick' and
'full pressure' in the same formula.

Pump capacity is the limit; always.
Lloyd

On 2013-12-07, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

it means that it will not be filled fast
when the system reaches pressure.



Let me revise my comment a little.

You're a math guy. How will the big tank _ever_ fill quickly, and still
not prevent you from getting full pressure quickly in the small tank?

Very simple. The big tank would start to fill only when system
pressure is above, say, 120, and stop filling if it drops below, say,
90. A valve and a pressure switch can do that.

Opening a 'pass-over' valve to the big tank once the small one is full
won't do it! It'll drop the system down to system peak divided by the
ratio of tank volumes the INSTANT you open it (well, within seconds). So
the pump will come back on, and now run an intolerable length of time
before you have enough pressure to work. You can't have 'quick' and
'full pressure' in the same formula.

Think some more, you will realize that what I want to do is the nicest
way of doing it.

i

On 2013-12-07, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 13:21:49 -0600, Ignoramus31823
wrote:

On 2013-12-07, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 20:06:57 -0600, Ignoramus5722
wrote:

On 2013-12-07, Pete C. wrote:
Add compressor capacity, rather than tank volume, presuming you have a
reasonable size tank now. Set the pressure switch for the second
compressor to come on as say 10 psi below the first's cut in pressure so
it will only come on when the first is unable to keep up with the
demand.

Pete, I would like to explore my idea in the original post, for now. I
do not really want to get more compressors, for now. Even though it is
tempting to upgrade,I just bought a 15HP Quincy 370 compressor. My
shop guy wants me to upgrade my 10HP quincy to this one.But I do not
want the hassle of upgrading the wiring and dealing with a messy
wiring duct.

i
Whats your current wire size? How far is the run?


40 feet, I believe 10 gauge, 30 amp breaker, 220v

i

Right at the border for a intermitant load. Drop it to 8 ga and put in
a 60 amp breaker and you are golden. Im sure you can come up with
120' of 8 gage while you are closing down factories.

I have about 1200 lbs of cables. But my problem is that the wire going
to the compressor, goes through a 48 year old wire duct. I am afraid
of messing with it. I do not even know how I am going to figure it out.

Perhaps I should start with a clean slate, and get a new 50A circuit
to the compressor, with a real neutral, etc, through a separate
conduit. And then upgrade the compressor from my 10HP QUincy to the
15HP quincy that I bought on auction. My original plan was to sell the
15 HP compressor. But maybe I should keep it and sell the 10HP inspead.

i

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 17:38:31 -0600, Ignoramus31823
wrote:

On 2013-12-07, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 13:21:49 -0600, Ignoramus31823
wrote:

On 2013-12-07, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 20:06:57 -0600, Ignoramus5722
wrote:

On 2013-12-07, Pete C. wrote:
Add compressor capacity, rather than tank volume, presuming you have a
reasonable size tank now. Set the pressure switch for the second
compressor to come on as say 10 psi below the first's cut in pressure so
it will only come on when the first is unable to keep up with the
demand.

Pete, I would like to explore my idea in the original post, for now. I
do not really want to get more compressors, for now. Even though it is
tempting to upgrade,I just bought a 15HP Quincy 370 compressor. My
shop guy wants me to upgrade my 10HP quincy to this one.But I do not
want the hassle of upgrading the wiring and dealing with a messy
wiring duct.

i
Whats your current wire size? How far is the run?


40 feet, I believe 10 gauge, 30 amp breaker, 220v

i

Right at the border for a intermitant load. Drop it to 8 ga and put in
a 60 amp breaker and you are golden. Im sure you can come up with
120' of 8 gage while you are closing down factories.

I have about 1200 lbs of cables. But my problem is that the wire going
to the compressor, goes through a 48 year old wire duct. I am afraid
of messing with it. I do not even know how I am going to figure it out.

Perhaps I should start with a clean slate, and get a new 50A circuit
to the compressor, with a real neutral, etc, through a separate
conduit. And then upgrade the compressor from my 10HP QUincy to the
15HP quincy that I bought on auction. My original plan was to sell the
15 HP compressor. But maybe I should keep it and sell the 10HP inspead.

i

50' of 3/4" EMT will set you back about $20 or so.

Connectors and barrels will cost hummm $6

Conduit straps will cost $4

Time to do this project is about 1.5 hours

I think Id run the 15hp compressor and keep a 5 hp around as a hot
spare.

Up to you if you need that much air though. Do a lot of sand blasting
do you?

Gunner

--
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Ignoramus31823 fired this volley in
:

Think some more, you will realize that what I want to do is the nicest
way of doing it.


If your pump cuts in at 90, then all you've done is complicate the system
without improving the performance. The INSTANT your system hits 120,
it'll dump _all_ your main tank capacity into the reserve until the
pressure drops to 90 -- then the electric valve turns off and the pump
starts to run again... it will not improve the length of time it takes to
get the reserve up to pressure. That's dependent entirely on pump
capacity. It matters not how you fill it, it will always take the same
length of time.

Your method will NOT improve run time, or the time to reach "usable" air
pressure in the main tank, except for a slight (say 10%) time. But it
will increase the complexity and maintenance issues over a simpler,
purely solution.

Ig... for any given solution that will work, simpler and less expensive
is always better.

Lloyd

Ignoramus31823 fired this volley in
:

My original plan was to sell the
15 HP compressor. But maybe I should keep it and sell the 10HP inspead.

Amen!

Lloyd

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
"Ignoramus5722" wrote in message
...

snip

This setup makes sense to me, as

1) I would get the system to reach pressure quickly and
2) I would eventually get a supply of air in the accumulator,
without ever dropping the system pressure below 90 PSI.

I do realize that I can accomplish what I want, with a electric
pressure switch and a normally open pneumatic valve. But I thought,
perhaps, there is a purely pneumatic valve that does this? What
would
it be called?

A more complicated way... :-)

Have a pressure transducer in each tank and a solenoid valve between
them. Possibly with the flow control/check valve in line with the
solenoid valve.

Transducers ran to a controller and a little software.

For this, assuming the compressor starts at or below 90PSI and Stops
at or greater than 125 PSI.

Valve = Primary_Tank_PSI Secondary_Tank_PSI OR Primary_Tank_PSI
120 // Valve ON when secondary can help or when primary is near
full

Compressor = (Compressor AND Primary_Tank_PSI 125) OR (NOT
Compressor and Primary_Tank_PSI = 90) // Compressor turns ON at 90
PSI and OFF at 125 PSI.

RogerN

=================
Check valve from compressor to primary tank, another from secondary to
primary. Normally-closed solenoid valve from compressor to secondary,
opens when primary 90PSI. Can be switched off. Primary feeds shop air
line.

Compressor fills primary first to 90PSI, then solenoid valve to
secondary opens, check valve into primary closes as compressor outlet
pressure drops. Compressor brings up secondary.

If primary drops 90 then solenoid valve closes, compressor reverts to
filling primary.

Once primary is 90, compressor returns to filling secondary.

Normally secondary supplies airline via check valve into primary, is
refilled through open solenoid valve.

When demand is too high and pressure drops below 90PSI, solenoid valve
closes so compressor discharges into primary, as does secondary
through the tank-tank check valve until the demand drops below
compressor capacity. Then the compressor refills the primary, and then
the secondary.

I think that covers everything.
jsw

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 13:00:43 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 04:55:09 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:


i

If you find a good solution, please let me know. I bring a tractor PTO
compressor out to the field every day. I could reduce the tractor RPM
(save fuel) if such an accumulator could be designed.

I've thought of adding a couple old 100 lb. LP bottles but don't want
to wait for the whole system to build pressure before starting. The
shears need 100 psi to work so you can't start until almost to cutout
pressure.

Karl

With air compressors..there is going to be wait time..unless you
manage to come up with a screw compressor.....and then there will be
reserve fill time. Fact of life.

That's a big "maybe".

If you stanch all the leaks, tanks and lines will be full at startup,
so where's the delay?

--
Make awkward sexual advances, not war.

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:47:58 -0600, Ignoramus5722
wrote:

I have a strange sounding idea. I want to have an extra compressed air
tank in my system. I have a bunch of tanks at this moment to choose
from. This way, I could run air hungry tools like breakers, etc,
intermittently but longer.

So far, so good, and nothing complicated. I have a whole bunch of
tanks right now, and thought to do something nice for my shop and have
an extra tank.

Examples of tanks I have a

http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Marengo/186.jpg
http://goo.gl/PdkzbM (Tank with "QT-15" lettering on left)

However, I also realize that with a big extra tank, it will take so
much longer for the air system to come up to pressure. This will be my
wasted money, as people will be waiting longer to use compressed air.

So, I thought, can I have a valve, that would not fill the tank, until
system pressure reached 120 PSI. And then it would shut off again if
the pressure ever falls to below 90 PSI.

To use the accumulator tank to supply air, another pipe would be used
with a check valve.

This setup makes sense to me, as

1) I would get the system to reach pressure quickly and
2) I would eventually get a supply of air in the accumulator,
without ever dropping the system pressure below 90 PSI.

I do realize that I can accomplish what I want, with a electric
pressure switch and a normally open pneumatic valve. But I thought,
perhaps, there is a purely pneumatic valve that does this? What would
it be called?

Here is what I would use. The 60cfm model.

http://www.airtekltd.com/valves.htm#LOAD_GENIE

It will open and allow flow to the secondary tank at 120psi and block
the flow when the primary tank drops to 90psi. A parallel line with a
check valve to allow flow from the secondary to the primary would
allow both tanks to supply the system below 90psi.

"Ignoramus31823" wrote in message
...

On 2013-12-07, RogerN wrote:
"Ignoramus5722" wrote in message
...

snip

For this, assuming the compressor starts at or below 90PSI and Stops at
or
greater than 125 PSI.

Valve = Primary_Tank_PSI Secondary_Tank_PSI OR Primary_Tank_PSI 120
//
Valve ON when secondary can help or when primary is near full

Compressor = (Compressor AND Primary_Tank_PSI 125) OR (NOT Compressor
and
Primary_Tank_PSI = 90) // Compressor turns ON at 90 PSI and OFF at 125
PSI.

RogerN



Roger, this is what I may end up doing, except no software is
needed. All that is needed is a compressor pressure switch and a NC
relay.

i

With a little additional programming, the pressure transducer information
could be used to get a little more run time at pressure. For example you
could measure the rate of pressure change when the compressor is running but
no air is being used. The rate of change for the compressor can be compared
to current rate of change of air usage. If air is being used as fast as or
faster than what the compressor can keep up, you can turn in on before 90
PSI to give you more run time at pressure than you'd get waiting until 90
PSI to turn it on. Not sure that it would help you much but set points that
vary with demand can give you more air.

RogerN

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 17:22:27 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 13:00:43 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 04:55:09 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:


i

If you find a good solution, please let me know. I bring a tractor PTO
compressor out to the field every day. I could reduce the tractor RPM
(save fuel) if such an accumulator could be designed.

I've thought of adding a couple old 100 lb. LP bottles but don't want
to wait for the whole system to build pressure before starting. The
shears need 100 psi to work so you can't start until almost to cutout
pressure.

Karl

With air compressors..there is going to be wait time..unless you
manage to come up with a screw compressor.....and then there will be
reserve fill time. Fact of life.

That's a big "maybe".

If you stanch all the leaks, tanks and lines will be full at startup,
so where's the delay?

You just stated it yourself. If you staunch all the leaks..

I rather suspect Iggy isnt interested in that. He has had his
building now....what..a year? And he as yet hasnt done it.

Shrug


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Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

You just stated it yourself. If you staunch all the leaks..

I rather suspect Iggy isnt interested in that. He has had his
building now....what..a year? And he as yet hasnt done it.

Shrug


For what it's worth, I ran through that about two years ago. It took a
while to replace all the chuck o-rings, and find bubble-bleeds from a few
threaded fittings. But now, when the compressor shuts off at night, it
doesn't come on again until I use air the next day.

I still have to remember to remove TOOLS from any drop lines, because
tools seem to almost always leak a little.

A good "Monday Morning valve" set for daily on/off will accomplish almost
the same thing without quite as much fuss.

Lloyd


Lloyd

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 21:06:45 -0600, wrote:

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:47:58 -0600, Ignoramus5722
wrote:

I have a strange sounding idea. I want to have an extra compressed air
tank in my system. I have a bunch of tanks at this moment to choose
from. This way, I could run air hungry tools like breakers, etc,
intermittently but longer.

So far, so good, and nothing complicated. I have a whole bunch of
tanks right now, and thought to do something nice for my shop and have
an extra tank.

Examples of tanks I have a

http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Marengo/186.jpg
http://goo.gl/PdkzbM (Tank with "QT-15" lettering on left)

However, I also realize that with a big extra tank, it will take so
much longer for the air system to come up to pressure. This will be my
wasted money, as people will be waiting longer to use compressed air.

So, I thought, can I have a valve, that would not fill the tank, until
system pressure reached 120 PSI. And then it would shut off again if
the pressure ever falls to below 90 PSI.

To use the accumulator tank to supply air, another pipe would be used
with a check valve.

This setup makes sense to me, as

1) I would get the system to reach pressure quickly and
2) I would eventually get a supply of air in the accumulator,
without ever dropping the system pressure below 90 PSI.

I do realize that I can accomplish what I want, with a electric
pressure switch and a normally open pneumatic valve. But I thought,
perhaps, there is a purely pneumatic valve that does this? What would
it be called?

Here is what I would use. The 60cfm model.

http://www.airtekltd.com/valves.htm#LOAD_GENIE

It will open and allow flow to the secondary tank at 120psi and block
the flow when the primary tank drops to 90psi. A parallel line with a
check valve to allow flow from the secondary to the primary would
allow both tanks to supply the system below 90psi.

Btw..while the Load Genie works well enough..it has a moving diaphram
in it and a drain port. Be sure that the drain port has a line leading
out to your drain location..else things get wet when the thing does
its switching.


--
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but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 21:50:49 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

You just stated it yourself. If you staunch all the leaks..

I rather suspect Iggy isnt interested in that. He has had his
building now....what..a year? And he as yet hasnt done it.

Shrug


For what it's worth, I ran through that about two years ago. It took a
while to replace all the chuck o-rings, and find bubble-bleeds from a few
threaded fittings. But now, when the compressor shuts off at night, it
doesn't come on again until I use air the next day.

I still have to remember to remove TOOLS from any drop lines, because
tools seem to almost always leak a little.

A good "Monday Morning valve" set for daily on/off will accomplish almost
the same thing without quite as much fuss.

Lloyd


Lloyd

Ayup..there is that too. And its far easier to do.


--
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but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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Ignoramus5722 wrote:

We do not have the compressor on at all times. We turn it on in the
morning or when it is necessary.

Sounds like you have a bad leak if the system won't hold air overnight.

But when we turn the compressor on in the morning, when we need air, I
do not want to wait extra 15 minutes.

Filling the extra tank through a throttle valve and delivering the stored
air through a check valve will do what you want, but the energy efficiency
will be around 50%. It's the same story as charging a battery through a
resistor. A manually-operated valve would be better if its operation can
be timed to miss the demand peaks.

If your peak loads are sufficiently infrequent (once in ten compressor
cycles or some such) the resistive reservoir charging might be useful. For
my part I'd try to make the system hold pressure when the shop's closed.
Compresed air is basically money.

Hope this helps,

bob prohaska

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:47:58 -0600, Ignoramus5722

Here is what I would use. The 60cfm model.

http://www.airtekltd.com/valves.htm#LOAD_GENIE

It will open and allow flow to the secondary tank at 120psi and
block
the flow when the primary tank drops to 90psi. A parallel line with
a
check valve to allow flow from the secondary to the primary would
allow both tanks to supply the system below 90psi.

I've had a Load Genie on my compressor since the 70's. It tends to jam
from sideways loading on the inlet pipe, which expands when it heats
up. Sometimes the Load Genie waits a minute or two after the
compressor shuts off before unloading.
jsw

On 2013-12-07, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus31823 fired this volley in
:

Think some more, you will realize that what I want to do is the nicest
way of doing it.


If your pump cuts in at 90, then all you've done is complicate the system
without improving the performance. The INSTANT your system hits 120,
it'll dump _all_ your main tank capacity into the reserve until the
pressure drops to 90 -- then the electric valve turns off and the pump
starts to run again... it will not improve the length of time it takes to
get the reserve up to pressure.

Actually, if you think about it, the compressor will run continuously
from the time the pressure hits 120, until such time the reserve tank
is filled. All the while, the system pressure will never drop below
90.

During filling, no energy will be lost, unlike with restricted valves.

i

On 2013-12-07, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
"Ignoramus5722" wrote in message
...

snip

This setup makes sense to me, as

1) I would get the system to reach pressure quickly and
2) I would eventually get a supply of air in the accumulator,
without ever dropping the system pressure below 90 PSI.

I do realize that I can accomplish what I want, with a electric
pressure switch and a normally open pneumatic valve. But I thought,
perhaps, there is a purely pneumatic valve that does this? What
would
it be called?

A more complicated way... :-)

Have a pressure transducer in each tank and a solenoid valve between
them. Possibly with the flow control/check valve in line with the
solenoid valve.

Transducers ran to a controller and a little software.

For this, assuming the compressor starts at or below 90PSI and Stops
at or greater than 125 PSI.

Valve = Primary_Tank_PSI Secondary_Tank_PSI OR Primary_Tank_PSI
120 // Valve ON when secondary can help or when primary is near
full

Compressor = (Compressor AND Primary_Tank_PSI 125) OR (NOT
Compressor and Primary_Tank_PSI = 90) // Compressor turns ON at 90
PSI and OFF at 125 PSI.

RogerN

=================
Check valve from compressor to primary tank, another from secondary to
primary. Normally-closed solenoid valve from compressor to secondary,
opens when primary 90PSI. Can be switched off. Primary feeds shop air
line.

Compressor fills primary first to 90PSI, then solenoid valve to
secondary opens, check valve into primary closes as compressor outlet
pressure drops. Compressor brings up secondary.

If primary drops 90 then solenoid valve closes, compressor reverts to
filling primary.

Once primary is 90, compressor returns to filling secondary.

Normally secondary supplies airline via check valve into primary, is
refilled through open solenoid valve.

When demand is too high and pressure drops below 90PSI, solenoid valve
closes so compressor discharges into primary, as does secondary
through the tank-tank check valve until the demand drops below
compressor capacity. Then the compressor refills the primary, and then
the secondary.

I think that covers everything.
jsw



This is EXACTLY what I wanted to do, except the filling valve should
open at 120 and close at 90. Thanks for explaining.

i

On 2013-12-08, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 17:22:27 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 13:00:43 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 04:55:09 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:


i

If you find a good solution, please let me know. I bring a tractor PTO
compressor out to the field every day. I could reduce the tractor RPM
(save fuel) if such an accumulator could be designed.

I've thought of adding a couple old 100 lb. LP bottles but don't want
to wait for the whole system to build pressure before starting. The
shears need 100 psi to work so you can't start until almost to cutout
pressure.

Karl

With air compressors..there is going to be wait time..unless you
manage to come up with a screw compressor.....and then there will be
reserve fill time. Fact of life.

That's a big "maybe".

If you stanch all the leaks, tanks and lines will be full at startup,
so where's the delay?

You just stated it yourself. If you staunch all the leaks..

I rather suspect Iggy isnt interested in that. He has had his
building now....what..a year? And he as yet hasnt done it.

Over 2 years.

I have a lot of compressed air piping, a lot of it under the ceiling.

On 2013-12-08, RogerN wrote:
"Ignoramus31823" wrote in message
...

On 2013-12-07, RogerN wrote:
"Ignoramus5722" wrote in message
...

snip

For this, assuming the compressor starts at or below 90PSI and Stops at
or
greater than 125 PSI.

Valve = Primary_Tank_PSI Secondary_Tank_PSI OR Primary_Tank_PSI 120
//
Valve ON when secondary can help or when primary is near full

Compressor = (Compressor AND Primary_Tank_PSI 125) OR (NOT Compressor
and
Primary_Tank_PSI = 90) // Compressor turns ON at 90 PSI and OFF at 125
PSI.

RogerN



Roger, this is what I may end up doing, except no software is
needed. All that is needed is a compressor pressure switch and a NC
relay.

i

With a little additional programming, the pressure transducer information
could be used to get a little more run time at pressure. For example you
could measure the rate of pressure change when the compressor is running but
no air is being used. The rate of change for the compressor can be compared
to current rate of change of air usage. If air is being used as fast as or
faster than what the compressor can keep up, you can turn in on before 90
PSI to give you more run time at pressure than you'd get waiting until 90
PSI to turn it on. Not sure that it would help you much but set points that
vary with demand can give you more air.

I do not think that I can get more run time with that, and I
definitely do not see the benefit worth diong software, adding
computer etc.

i

On 2013-12-08, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:47:58 -0600, Ignoramus5722
wrote:

I have a strange sounding idea. I want to have an extra compressed air
tank in my system. I have a bunch of tanks at this moment to choose
from. This way, I could run air hungry tools like breakers, etc,
intermittently but longer.

So far, so good, and nothing complicated. I have a whole bunch of
tanks right now, and thought to do something nice for my shop and have
an extra tank.

Examples of tanks I have a

http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Marengo/186.jpg
http://goo.gl/PdkzbM (Tank with "QT-15" lettering on left)

However, I also realize that with a big extra tank, it will take so
much longer for the air system to come up to pressure. This will be my
wasted money, as people will be waiting longer to use compressed air.

So, I thought, can I have a valve, that would not fill the tank, until
system pressure reached 120 PSI. And then it would shut off again if
the pressure ever falls to below 90 PSI.

To use the accumulator tank to supply air, another pipe would be used
with a check valve.

This setup makes sense to me, as

1) I would get the system to reach pressure quickly and
2) I would eventually get a supply of air in the accumulator,
without ever dropping the system pressure below 90 PSI.

I do realize that I can accomplish what I want, with a electric
pressure switch and a normally open pneumatic valve. But I thought,
perhaps, there is a purely pneumatic valve that does this? What would
it be called?

Here is what I would use. The 60cfm model.

http://www.airtekltd.com/valves.htm#LOAD_GENIE

It will open and allow flow to the secondary tank at 120psi and block
the flow when the primary tank drops to 90psi. A parallel line with a
check valve to allow flow from the secondary to the primary would
allow both tanks to supply the system below 90psi.

Interesting. There are several items listed. Do you mean item "NLG-1"?

i

On 2013-12-08, User Bp wrote:
Ignoramus5722 wrote:

We do not have the compressor on at all times. We turn it on in the
morning or when it is necessary.

Sounds like you have a bad leak if the system won't hold air overnight.

But when we turn the compressor on in the morning, when we need air, I
do not want to wait extra 15 minutes.

Filling the extra tank through a throttle valve and delivering the stored
air through a check valve will do what you want, but the energy efficiency
will be around 50%. It's the same story as charging a battery through a
resistor. A manually-operated valve would be better if its operation can
be timed to miss the demand peaks.

Exactly. Like charging battery through a resistor.

A pressure controlled solenoid valve would be better.

If your peak loads are sufficiently infrequent (once in ten
compressor cycles or some such) the resistive reservoir charging
might be useful. For my part I'd try to make the system hold
pressure when the shop's closed. Compresed air is basically money.

I think that I should try to get my act together and find leaks. Plus
the dryer dumps a bunch of air every 2 minutes, very annoying.

i

On Sun, 8 Dec 2013 07:39:10 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:47:58 -0600, Ignoramus5722

Here is what I would use. The 60cfm model.

http://www.airtekltd.com/valves.htm#LOAD_GENIE

It will open and allow flow to the secondary tank at 120psi and
block
the flow when the primary tank drops to 90psi. A parallel line with
a
check valve to allow flow from the secondary to the primary would
allow both tanks to supply the system below 90psi.

I've had a Load Genie on my compressor since the 70's. It tends to jam
from sideways loading on the inlet pipe, which expands when it heats
up. Sometimes the Load Genie waits a minute or two after the
compressor shuts off before unloading.

Shaving the gray hair off the Genie's inlet pipe should help the old
guy.

--
I hate being bipolar ....... It's awesome!

"Ignoramus3322" wrote in message
...

On 2013-12-08, RogerN wrote:
snip

With a little additional programming, the pressure transducer information
could be used to get a little more run time at pressure. For example you
could measure the rate of pressure change when the compressor is running
but
no air is being used. The rate of change for the compressor can be
compared
to current rate of change of air usage. If air is being used as fast as
or
faster than what the compressor can keep up, you can turn in on before 90
PSI to give you more run time at pressure than you'd get waiting until 90
PSI to turn it on. Not sure that it would help you much but set points
that
vary with demand can give you more air.

I do not think that I can get more run time with that, and I
definitely do not see the benefit worth diong software, adding
computer etc.

i

About the run time, let me see if I can explain it better. For example,
let's say your sandblaster needs at least "X" psi to operate correctly. Now
if your sand blaster drains your tanks at 15 PSI per minute, and your
compressor adds 10 PSI per minute, then with the compressor on, you have a
loss of 5 PSI per minute. So if you could detect usage rate compressor
rate, and turn on the compressor at 120 PSI instead of 90 PSI, you get 6
minutes of usage at a loss of 5 PSI per minute, from 120 to 90 PSI. With
the compressor off, you get 2 minutes from 120 to 90 PSI.

I understand at this point the computer idea sounds too complicated /
expensive but that's kind of like your EMC experience. Sounded like too
much unfamiliar territory but you took it step by step, solved one problem
at a time, and ended up with a system that you can repair without high $$
parts and labor. And you added a 4th axis + knee?, that may not have even
been an option with the original control.

If anything like this ever seemed practical, options include a micro PLC
with analog input or something like an Arduino board, $30, has analog
inputs, free software, screw terminal add on for around $8. The 5V output
from the microcontroller can be used on AC or DC solid state relays to
control valves and/or magnetic contactors. So it's actually nothing like
using a PC and trying to interface to a compressor. Or perhaps some of you
scrap deals could have a controller in them that could be reprogrammed for
other tasks.

RogerN

On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 10:04:12 -0600, Ignoramus3322
wrote:

On 2013-12-08, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 17:22:27 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 13:00:43 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 04:55:09 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:


i

If you find a good solution, please let me know. I bring a tractor PTO
compressor out to the field every day. I could reduce the tractor RPM
(save fuel) if such an accumulator could be designed.

I've thought of adding a couple old 100 lb. LP bottles but don't want
to wait for the whole system to build pressure before starting. The
shears need 100 psi to work so you can't start until almost to cutout
pressure.

Karl

With air compressors..there is going to be wait time..unless you
manage to come up with a screw compressor.....and then there will be
reserve fill time. Fact of life.

That's a big "maybe".

If you stanch all the leaks, tanks and lines will be full at startup,
so where's the delay?

You just stated it yourself. If you staunch all the leaks..

I rather suspect Iggy isnt interested in that. He has had his
building now....what..a year? And he as yet hasnt done it.

Over 2 years.

I have a lot of compressed air piping, a lot of it under the ceiling.

Yes and? Question #1...do you need all of it?

If no...disconnect that you dont need. Dont remove it..simply
disconnect it. Cant unscrew that run down bay #3? Cut it with your
trusty Sawzall, hand thread and put a cap on it. If the time comes
when you need that disconnected run..put a union in.

Its not..not rocket science. You are not doing manufacturing..so the
need for massive air handling runs simply doesnt exist. And all that
extra plumbing is a huge air sink and a ****load of leaks.

I do work for a guy who does some machining and machine sales in a
pretty good sized building. Know what he has for air? A 3hp Sullaire
110vt compressor on wheels. It may have a 10 gallon tank on it.
Period.

With a pair of 50' hoses...he can do just about anything, from blowing
the dust out of a control to filling the tires on his truck, to spray
painting machines. He had a bigger compressor...but he also had a
1/2" capable Bliss 8' shear that he used regularly. When it went
away..so did the need for a big compressor.

Just something to ponder, old buddy.

Gunner

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

"Ignoramus31823" wrote in
message ...
On 2013-12-07, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Check valve from compressor to primary tank, another from secondary
to
primary. Normally-closed solenoid valve from compressor to
secondary,
opens when primary 90PSI. Can be switched off. Primary feeds shop
air
line....

jsw

This is EXACTLY what I wanted to do, except the filling valve should
open at 120 and close at 90. Thanks for explaining.

i

90PSI was a placeholder to simplify the explanation.

Your unloader may require another check valve going into the secondary
tank.
jsw

On 2013-12-08, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Ignoramus31823" wrote in
message ...
On 2013-12-07, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Check valve from compressor to primary tank, another from secondary
to
primary. Normally-closed solenoid valve from compressor to
secondary,
opens when primary 90PSI. Can be switched off. Primary feeds shop
air
line....

jsw

This is EXACTLY what I wanted to do, except the filling valve should
open at 120 and close at 90. Thanks for explaining.

i

90PSI was a placeholder to simplify the explanation.

Your unloader may require another check valve going into the secondary
tank.

Right. I already found two 1/2 inch check valves, with manual valves
on them also. If I do add a tank it should work out pretty good.

i

On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 10:07:29 -0600, Ignoramus3322
wrote:

On 2013-12-08, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:47:58 -0600, Ignoramus5722
wrote:

I have a strange sounding idea. I want to have an extra compressed air
tank in my system. I have a bunch of tanks at this moment to choose
from. This way, I could run air hungry tools like breakers, etc,
intermittently but longer.

So far, so good, and nothing complicated. I have a whole bunch of
tanks right now, and thought to do something nice for my shop and have
an extra tank.

Examples of tanks I have a

http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Marengo/186.jpg
http://goo.gl/PdkzbM (Tank with "QT-15" lettering on left)

However, I also realize that with a big extra tank, it will take so
much longer for the air system to come up to pressure. This will be my
wasted money, as people will be waiting longer to use compressed air.

So, I thought, can I have a valve, that would not fill the tank, until
system pressure reached 120 PSI. And then it would shut off again if
the pressure ever falls to below 90 PSI.

To use the accumulator tank to supply air, another pipe would be used
with a check valve.

This setup makes sense to me, as

1) I would get the system to reach pressure quickly and
2) I would eventually get a supply of air in the accumulator,
without ever dropping the system pressure below 90 PSI.

I do realize that I can accomplish what I want, with a electric
pressure switch and a normally open pneumatic valve. But I thought,
perhaps, there is a purely pneumatic valve that does this? What would
it be called?

Here is what I would use. The 60cfm model.

http://www.airtekltd.com/valves.htm#LOAD_GENIE

It will open and allow flow to the secondary tank at 120psi and block
the flow when the primary tank drops to 90psi. A parallel line with a
check valve to allow flow from the secondary to the primary would
allow both tanks to supply the system below 90psi.

Interesting. There are several items listed. Do you mean item "NLG-1"?

i

Yes, NLG-1. With this and the check valve, there is no need for
electrical power to operate it.

I've had a larger model 140/175 on a service truck compressor for over
30 years. It is for constant running of the gas engine. When it builds
to 175, the air is dumped overboard. It is loud. I put a lawn mower
muffler on it. That is where you would connect to your secondary tank.

On 2013-12-08, wrote:
On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 10:07:29 -0600, Ignoramus3322
wrote:

On 2013-12-08, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:47:58 -0600, Ignoramus5722
wrote:

I have a strange sounding idea. I want to have an extra compressed air
tank in my system. I have a bunch of tanks at this moment to choose
from. This way, I could run air hungry tools like breakers, etc,
intermittently but longer.

So far, so good, and nothing complicated. I have a whole bunch of
tanks right now, and thought to do something nice for my shop and have
an extra tank.

Examples of tanks I have a

http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Marengo/186.jpg
http://goo.gl/PdkzbM (Tank with "QT-15" lettering on left)

However, I also realize that with a big extra tank, it will take so
much longer for the air system to come up to pressure. This will be my
wasted money, as people will be waiting longer to use compressed air.

So, I thought, can I have a valve, that would not fill the tank, until
system pressure reached 120 PSI. And then it would shut off again if
the pressure ever falls to below 90 PSI.

To use the accumulator tank to supply air, another pipe would be used
with a check valve.

This setup makes sense to me, as

1) I would get the system to reach pressure quickly and
2) I would eventually get a supply of air in the accumulator,
without ever dropping the system pressure below 90 PSI.

I do realize that I can accomplish what I want, with a electric
pressure switch and a normally open pneumatic valve. But I thought,
perhaps, there is a purely pneumatic valve that does this? What would
it be called?

Here is what I would use. The 60cfm model.

http://www.airtekltd.com/valves.htm#LOAD_GENIE

It will open and allow flow to the secondary tank at 120psi and block
the flow when the primary tank drops to 90psi. A parallel line with a
check valve to allow flow from the secondary to the primary would
allow both tanks to supply the system below 90psi.

Interesting. There are several items listed. Do you mean item "NLG-1"?

i

Yes, NLG-1. With this and the check valve, there is no need for
electrical power to operate it.

I've had a larger model 140/175 on a service truck compressor for over
30 years. It is for constant running of the gas engine. When it builds
to 175, the air is dumped overboard. It is loud. I put a lawn mower
muffler on it. That is where you would connect to your secondary tank.

OK, thanks, this is cool if I can do it without electrical
connections, much better. This is what I was sort of hoping that I
could find. Thank you

i

On 2013-12-08, wrote:
On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 10:07:29 -0600, Ignoramus3322
wrote:

On 2013-12-08, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:47:58 -0600, Ignoramus5722
wrote:

I have a strange sounding idea. I want to have an extra compressed air
tank in my system. I have a bunch of tanks at this moment to choose
from. This way, I could run air hungry tools like breakers, etc,
intermittently but longer.

So far, so good, and nothing complicated. I have a whole bunch of
tanks right now, and thought to do something nice for my shop and have
an extra tank.

Examples of tanks I have a

http://igor.chudov.com/misc/ebay/tmp/Marengo/186.jpg
http://goo.gl/PdkzbM (Tank with "QT-15" lettering on left)

However, I also realize that with a big extra tank, it will take so
much longer for the air system to come up to pressure. This will be my
wasted money, as people will be waiting longer to use compressed air.

So, I thought, can I have a valve, that would not fill the tank, until
system pressure reached 120 PSI. And then it would shut off again if
the pressure ever falls to below 90 PSI.

To use the accumulator tank to supply air, another pipe would be used
with a check valve.

This setup makes sense to me, as

1) I would get the system to reach pressure quickly and
2) I would eventually get a supply of air in the accumulator,
without ever dropping the system pressure below 90 PSI.

I do realize that I can accomplish what I want, with a electric
pressure switch and a normally open pneumatic valve. But I thought,
perhaps, there is a purely pneumatic valve that does this? What would
it be called?

Here is what I would use. The 60cfm model.

http://www.airtekltd.com/valves.htm#LOAD_GENIE

It will open and allow flow to the secondary tank at 120psi and block
the flow when the primary tank drops to 90psi. A parallel line with a
check valve to allow flow from the secondary to the primary would
allow both tanks to supply the system below 90psi.

Interesting. There are several items listed. Do you mean item "NLG-1"?

i

Yes, NLG-1. With this and the check valve, there is no need for
electrical power to operate it.

OK, couple more question.

1. For my application, I need to simply connect my compressed air
system to the inlet, cap the "outlet" connection, and connect tank to
the muffler connection. Right?

2. Is it piloted or does it get pressure from the input line?

i

I've had a larger model 140/175 on a service truck compressor for over
30 years. It is for constant running of the gas engine. When it builds
to 175, the air is dumped overboard. It is loud. I put a lawn mower
muffler on it. That is where you would connect to your secondary tank.

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

I understand at this point the computer idea sounds too complicated
/ expensive but that's kind of like your EMC experience. Sounded
like too much unfamiliar territory but you took it step by step,
solved one problem at a time, and ended up with a system that you
can repair without high $$ parts and labor. And you added a 4th
axis + knee?, that may not have even been an option with the
original control.

RogerN

I considered similarly overengineering a computerized draft regulator
for my woodstove, with inputs from firebox, stack and outdoor air
temperature and the draft vacuum, all of which I was monitoring. It
would be fun and a considerable accomplishment to tune it properly.
I've designed relay-ladder controls for industrial production test and
burn-in stations and wired/programmed simulations of the rest of the
system for circuit board test and calibration fixtures.

For the woodstove I decided instead to add a remote thermocouple
temperature display above this computer's monitor, so I know at a
glance to go down and attend to it when it has reached operating
temperature or needs more wood. A second channel tells me when a pot
on the stove is nearing boil.

When I sandblast with an inadequate compressor I hang a large pressure
gauge on the wall nearby and attack a new area with hammer and chisel
until the pressure recovers enough to continue.

I've learned to be cautious of designing complex things for other
people's use that only the designer can fix.
jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...


I considered similarly overengineering a computerized draft regulator for
my woodstove, with inputs from firebox, stack and outdoor air temperature
and the draft vacuum, all of which I was monitoring. It would be fun and a
considerable accomplishment to tune it properly. I've designed relay-ladder
controls for industrial production test and burn-in stations and
wired/programmed simulations of the rest of the system for circuit board
test and calibration fixtures.

For the woodstove I decided instead to add a remote thermocouple
temperature display above this computer's monitor, so I know at a glance to
go down and attend to it when it has reached operating temperature or needs
more wood. A second channel tells me when a pot on the stove is nearing
boil.

When I sandblast with an inadequate compressor I hang a large pressure
gauge on the wall nearby and attack a new area with hammer and chisel until
the pressure recovers enough to continue.

I've learned to be cautious of designing complex things for other people's
use that only the designer can fix.
jsw

I wired an Allen Bradley PLC 5 to a Brinkman Gourmet Electric Smoker. Had a
PanelView 550 for operator interface. A RTD probe for the meat and another
for the temperature inside the smoker. The meat set point temperature
ramped up over 12 hours as the smoker temperature was kept within limits.
After the temperature was reached, it was held for a period of time to allow
it to even out, then brought down to a set point of 140 degrees for "keep
warm". It worked great but was a pain to drag out & set up then put back
up. I need to mount the controller in a box and use plugs for the
temperature probes and power. It was done for fun but made pretty good BBQ,
need an automatic smoke wood feeder!

Next step I could use some actuators for the air inlets and control my Weber
Smokey Mountain smoker!

PLC 5's are a bit old but their cards are cheap since the 1771 racks date
back to PLC 2's. The downside is the programming software but I have it on
my work laptop.

RogerN

On 2013-12-09, RogerN wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...


I considered similarly overengineering a computerized draft regulator for
my woodstove, with inputs from firebox, stack and outdoor air temperature
and the draft vacuum, all of which I was monitoring. It would be fun and a
considerable accomplishment to tune it properly. I've designed relay-ladder
controls for industrial production test and burn-in stations and
wired/programmed simulations of the rest of the system for circuit board
test and calibration fixtures.

For the woodstove I decided instead to add a remote thermocouple
temperature display above this computer's monitor, so I know at a glance to
go down and attend to it when it has reached operating temperature or needs
more wood. A second channel tells me when a pot on the stove is nearing
boil.

When I sandblast with an inadequate compressor I hang a large pressure
gauge on the wall nearby and attack a new area with hammer and chisel until
the pressure recovers enough to continue.

I've learned to be cautious of designing complex things for other people's
use that only the designer can fix.
jsw

I wired an Allen Bradley PLC 5 to a Brinkman Gourmet Electric Smoker. Had a
PanelView 550 for operator interface. A RTD probe for the meat and another
for the temperature inside the smoker. The meat set point temperature
ramped up over 12 hours as the smoker temperature was kept within limits.
After the temperature was reached, it was held for a period of time to allow
it to even out, then brought down to a set point of 140 degrees for "keep
warm". It worked great but was a pain to drag out & set up then put back
up. I need to mount the controller in a box and use plugs for the
temperature probes and power. It was done for fun but made pretty good BBQ,
need an automatic smoke wood feeder!

Next step I could use some actuators for the air inlets and control my Weber
Smokey Mountain smoker!

PLC 5's are a bit old but their cards are cheap since the 1771 racks date
back to PLC 2's. The downside is the programming software but I have it on
my work laptop.

What is OK for an outdoor smoker, is not OK for an indoor wood fired
stove, a much more dangerous device.

i

"Ignoramus3322" wrote in message
...

On 2013-12-09, RogerN wrote:
snip

PLC 5's are a bit old but their cards are cheap since the 1771 racks date
back to PLC 2's. The downside is the programming software but I have it
on
my work laptop.

What is OK for an outdoor smoker, is not OK for an indoor wood fired
stove, a much more dangerous device.

i

True, if you make a mistake with the program, you may never find out!

However, about everything that can be sensed with electronic sensors can be
fed into a controller and acted upon or at least sound an alarm. So, on a
wood stove you could monitor temperatures, carbon monoxide, or any other
relevant conditions that you might want to monitor on a wood stove.
Controls checking and acting on conditions hundreds of times per second can
catch and correct a problem better than a person can.

I used to attempt to fly R/C helicopters before Gyro's were common to assist
tail rotor control, probably averaged 1/4 tank of fuel between crashes.
After purchase of a cheap mechanical gyro, next crash was around 70 full
tanks of fuel later. The crash after 70 tanks of fuel was due to getting it
too far away and losing orientation, not a control or gyro related problem.

RogerN

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
"Ignoramus3322" wrote in message

What is OK for an outdoor smoker, is not OK for an indoor wood fired
stove, a much more dangerous device.

i

True, if you make a mistake with the program, you may never find
out!

However, about everything that can be sensed with electronic sensors
can be fed into a controller and acted upon or at least sound an
alarm. So, on a wood stove you could monitor temperatures, carbon
monoxide, or any other relevant conditions that you might want to
monitor on a wood stove. Controls checking and acting on conditions
hundreds of times per second can catch and correct a problem better
than a person can.

RogerN

I share Iggy's concern enough that I don't run the stove when I'm
away. In midwinter I came home from work to a 50F house, the setting
of the electric backup.

The control I was considering would have closed the air inlet on the
door as the stove came up to temperature. I didn't add it because I
don't want any possible interference if the fire runs away and I need
to shut it down.

After Thanksgiving I let the house cool to measure the rate vs
outdoor temperature. At 2AM on Saturday the smoke alarm blasted me out
of bed, to the smell of something electrical that had overheated. I
rushed around checking all the electronics, found nothing warm,
rechecked them twice anyway. Then I noticed that the smell was
strongest near the hallway radiator, which hadn't been disassembled
and vacuumed out in a long time. I had forgotten about the backup
setting. The radiator had turned on, and the alarm and hot plastic
smell were from rug fibers in it.

jsw

On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 10:05:08 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"RogerN" wrote in message
om...
"Ignoramus3322" wrote in message

What is OK for an outdoor smoker, is not OK for an indoor wood fired
stove, a much more dangerous device.

i

True, if you make a mistake with the program, you may never find
out!

However, about everything that can be sensed with electronic sensors
can be fed into a controller and acted upon or at least sound an
alarm. So, on a wood stove you could monitor temperatures, carbon
monoxide, or any other relevant conditions that you might want to
monitor on a wood stove. Controls checking and acting on conditions
hundreds of times per second can catch and correct a problem better
than a person can.

RogerN

I share Iggy's concern enough that I don't run the stove when I'm
away. In midwinter I came home from work to a 50F house, the setting
of the electric backup.

The control I was considering would have closed the air inlet on the
door as the stove came up to temperature. I didn't add it because I
don't want any possible interference if the fire runs away and I need
to shut it down.

After Thanksgiving I let the house cool to measure the rate vs
outdoor temperature. At 2AM on Saturday the smoke alarm blasted me out
of bed, to the smell of something electrical that had overheated. I
rushed around checking all the electronics, found nothing warm,
rechecked them twice anyway. Then I noticed that the smell was
strongest near the hallway radiator, which hadn't been disassembled
and vacuumed out in a long time. I had forgotten about the backup
setting. The radiator had turned on, and the alarm and hot plastic
smell were from rug fibers in it.

What fun!

I woke up to some fun this morning. -=No water=- The pump pressure
is up but the lines are frozen. I put a heater in the pump house (the
light had burned out, allowing the freeze?) an hour ago but no joy
yet. I'll put it in the crawlspace in a few minutes and see if that
does it. sigh

It has been 10 or 11F here two days in a row. The lowest I've seen
here before is 17F, and my outside line burst 8 years ago. I have
insulated the exterior pipes and shut them off for the winter now, so
this is the first problem I've had, and the first time losing water.
There's a shutoff valve for each inside and outside lines.

Crap!


--
I hate being bipolar ....... It's awesome!

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

I woke up to some fun this morning. -=No water=- The pump pressure
is up but the lines are frozen. I put a heater in the pump house
(the
light had burned out, allowing the freeze?) an hour ago but no joy
yet. I'll put it in the crawlspace in a few minutes and see if that
does it. sigh

It has been 10 or 11F here two days in a row. The lowest I've seen
here before is 17F, and my outside line burst 8 years ago. I have
insulated the exterior pipes and shut them off for the winter now,
so
this is the first problem I've had, and the first time losing water.
There's a shutoff valve for each inside and outside lines.

Crap!

I bought a 200W Lasko personal heater for $12 in WalMart to see if it
can keep my water meter above freezing when I'm away without running
up an excessive electric bill. Right now it's defrosting dinner. It
could be wired through an electric heat wall thermostat as a backup to
the light bulb that distributes heat differently, like downwards or
through a conduit.

For the light bulb:
http://www.crmagnetics.com/Products/CR2550-P13.aspx

jsw

On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 17:53:55 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .

I woke up to some fun this morning. -=No water=- The pump pressure
is up but the lines are frozen. I put a heater in the pump house
(the
light had burned out, allowing the freeze?) an hour ago but no joy
yet. I'll put it in the crawlspace in a few minutes and see if that
does it. sigh

It has been 10 or 11F here two days in a row. The lowest I've seen
here before is 17F, and my outside line burst 8 years ago. I have
insulated the exterior pipes and shut them off for the winter now,
so
this is the first problem I've had, and the first time losing water.
There's a shutoff valve for each inside and outside lines.

Crap!

I bought a 200W Lasko personal heater for $12 in WalMart to see if it

Wow, aren't those little cuties? That's much better for ladies' feet
under the desk than a 1,500W energy sucker. I wish I'd seen that
earlier today when I visited Wally World for my prescription, which
just left the $4/mo list and cost me $15.68 instead. Big Pharma
ended their price deal with Wally and bumped prices a wee bit!
The Lasko MyHeats are $18.62 today.


can keep my water meter above freezing when I'm away without running
up an excessive electric bill. Right now it's defrosting dinner. It

Dinner, eh? heh heh heh


could be wired through an electric heat wall thermostat as a backup to
the light bulb that distributes heat differently, like downwards or
through a conduit.

That's a thought.

I've been wanting to replumb in PEX and insulate the crap out of it
when done, but the ongoing recession took care of that for me. Red
Beacon (thru Home Depot) is bringing more work to me during the wet
season than ever before, so I may be able to afford that next year.


For the light bulb:
http://www.crmagnetics.com/Products/CR2550-P13.aspx

Hmm, I may do that some day...

3:30pm update: ****, still frozen shut. I had warmed the pump house
for over an hour, then put the heater aimed at the pipe in the
crawlspace for about 4 hours, but it's still frozen. Temps had risen
to 31F for awhile, but are back to 28F now and dropping. sigh
Rain is due Weds, so I hope to have water again by then.

I saw no indication of burst pipes during my quick foray under the
house. The visqueen was dry to the end. I'm keeping my fingers
crossed.

--
I hate being bipolar ....... It's awesome!