HELP. I’m in deep **** now!

I’m rebuilding my Excello CNC spindle. I’ve taken it down as far as I
can and have a REAL problem. I can’t get the drawbar out and that’s
preventing me from getting the spindle apart.

Here’s three pictures showing my spindle. Along side it is a donor
machine spindle shaft and quill cartridge. Not exactly the same as no
drawbar but its from another Excello
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_1.jpg
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_2.jpg
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_3.jpg

At the top of the unit there was a 7/8 hex (see wrench in pictures) so
i tried to turn it. Wouldn’t go until I used a three foot cheater bar.
Now it goes round and round fairly easy, but it wasn’t a thread.

I can see this part is attached to the top of the spline on the
spindle and must be removed to complete the disassembly.

Ideas?

Karl

On 7/18/2013 4:53 PM, Karl Townsend wrote:
HELP. I’m in deep **** now!

I’m rebuilding my Excello CNC spindle. I’ve taken it down as far as I
can and have a REAL problem. I can’t get the drawbar out and that’s
preventing me from getting the spindle apart.

Here’s three pictures showing my spindle. Along side it is a donor
machine spindle shaft and quill cartridge. Not exactly the same as no
drawbar but its from another Excello
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_1.jpg
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_2.jpg
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_3.jpg

At the top of the unit there was a 7/8 hex (see wrench in pictures) so
i tried to turn it. Wouldn’t go until I used a three foot cheater bar.
Now it goes round and round fairly easy, but it wasn’t a thread.

I can see this part is attached to the top of the spline on the
spindle and must be removed to complete the disassembly.

Ideas?

Karl


Sorry, no help here, but is it just my imagination or do you get more
than your fair share of grief? Or do you just have your fingers in so
many pies that it's just the average amount of grief multiplied by the pies?

On Thursday, July 18, 2013 4:53:13 PM UTC-4, Karl Townsend wrote:
HELP. I’m in deep **** now!



I’m rebuilding my Excello CNC spindle. I’ve taken it down as far as I

can and have a REAL problem. I can’t get the drawbar out and that’s

preventing me from getting the spindle apart.



Here’s three pictures showing my spindle. Along side it is a donor

machine spindle shaft and quill cartridge. Not exactly the same as no

drawbar but its from another Excello

http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_1.jpg

http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_2.jpg

http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_3.jpg



At the top of the unit there was a 7/8 hex (see wrench in pictures) so

i tried to turn it. Wouldn’t go until I used a three foot cheater bar.

Now it goes round and round fairly easy, but it wasn’t a thread.



I can see this part is attached to the top of the spline on the

spindle and must be removed to complete the disassembly.



Ideas?



Karl

Can you see the end of the drawbar inside the quill? Is there maybe some sort of snap ring inside there retaining the drawbar? Just guessing, but that's an easy place to take a look.

Sorry, no help here, but is it just my imagination or do you get more
than your fair share of grief? Or do you just have your fingers in so
many pies that it's just the average amount of grief multiplied by the pies?

Some of both. I have enough equipment something is always broke. I'm
too damn cheap to buy new stuff or hire a mechanic. Also had pretty
good luck getting answers here on RCM so you get to see all my life's
little problems.

Karl

Can you see the end of the drawbar inside the quill?
No

Is there maybe some sort of snap ring inside there retaining the drawbar?
Can't see one

Just guessing, but that's an easy place to take a look.

I'm going to try a 30 ton press on it tommorrow if I don't get another
suggestion.

Karl

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:53:13 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

HELP. I’m in deep **** now!

I’m rebuilding my Excello CNC spindle. I’ve taken it down as far as I
can and have a REAL problem. I can’t get the drawbar out and that’s
preventing me from getting the spindle apart.

Here’s three pictures showing my spindle. Along side it is a donor
machine spindle shaft and quill cartridge. Not exactly the same as no
drawbar but its from another Excello
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_1.jpg
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_2.jpg
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_3.jpg

At the top of the unit there was a 7/8 hex (see wrench in pictures) so
i tried to turn it. Wouldn’t go until I used a three foot cheater bar.
Now it goes round and round fairly easy, but it wasn’t a thread.

I can see this part is attached to the top of the spline on the
spindle and must be removed to complete the disassembly.

Ideas?

Karl

This may..may be of help

http://www.archive.org/stream/Excell...anual_djvu.txt

Some of those draw bars actually come out the bottom

Gunner

--
""Almost all liberal behavioral tropes track the impotent rage of small
children. Thus, for example, there is also the popular tactic of
repeating some stupid, meaningless phrase a billion times" Arms for
hostages, arms for hostages, arms for hostages, it's just about sex, just
about sex, just about sex, dumb,dumb, money in politics,money in
politics, Enron, Enron, Enron. Nothing repeated with mind-numbing
frequency in all major news outlets will not be believed by some members
of the populace. It is the permanence of evil; you can't stop it." (Ann
Coulter)

Karl Townsend wrote:

HELP. I’m in deep **** now!

I’m rebuilding my Excello CNC spindle. I’ve taken it down as far as I
can and have a REAL problem. I can’t get the drawbar out and that’s
preventing me from getting the spindle apart.

Here’s three pictures showing my spindle. Along side it is a donor
machine spindle shaft and quill cartridge. Not exactly the same as no
drawbar but its from another Excello
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_1.jpg
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_2.jpg
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_3.jpg

At the top of the unit there was a 7/8 hex (see wrench in pictures) so
i tried to turn it. Wouldn’t go until I used a three foot cheater bar.
Now it goes round and round fairly easy, but it wasn’t a thread.

I can see this part is attached to the top of the spline on the
spindle and must be removed to complete the disassembly.

Ideas?

Karl

Dunno what you have for docs, but I found this at archive.org:
http://wpnet.us/Excello602manual.pdf it includes some spindle exploded
diagrams.

Dunno what you have for docs, but I found this at archive.org:
http://wpnet.us/Excello602manual.pdf it includes some spindle exploded
diagrams.

different from the doc I have. this is for the manual machine, mine is
CNC, but it looks very similar.

It has pretty good maintenance instructions. On page 9, it just says,
"remove drawbar from machine"

That gives me confidence its just stuck,bent, or something. I'll put
it in the shop press tommorrow. Its soaking in Kroil all night.

Karl

This may..may be of help

http://www.archive.org/stream/Excell...anual_djvu.txt

pretty garbled, looks same as what Pete found.

Some of those draw bars actually come out the bottom

??? Don't see how that would ever work.

Gunner

Does this mean anything to you? Mine is a splined power drawbar and it
surely must have a bearing in there because it rotates with almost no
friction. My old series II bridgeport had this.

Karl

I just said screw it, and tossed the unit in the press. popped right
out, 30 tons is persuasive.

Discovered problem, LEFT hand threads. Didn't hurt the spindle shaft,
just the mild steel drawbar keeper. So, now i have a lathe fab job.

I guess left threads make sence, the spindle turns right 99.9% of the
time.

Karl

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:53:13 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

HELP. I’m in deep **** now!

I’m rebuilding my Excello CNC spindle. I’ve taken it down as far as I
can and have a REAL problem. I can’t get the drawbar out and that’s
preventing me from getting the spindle apart.

How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.


Here’s three pictures showing my spindle. Along side it is a donor
machine spindle shaft and quill cartridge. Not exactly the same as no
drawbar but its from another Excello
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_1.jpg
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_2.jpg
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/spindle_3.jpg

At the top of the unit there was a 7/8 hex (see wrench in pictures) so
i tried to turn it. Wouldn’t go until I used a three foot cheater bar.
Now it goes round and round fairly easy, but it wasn’t a thread.

I can see this part is attached to the top of the spline on the
spindle and must be removed to complete the disassembly.

Ideas?

Deep 7/8" impact socket and pneumatic impact wrench, Karl. Use a
large diameter hose and high pressure air for maximum torque. Try it
both ways to rule out left-hand threads. Maybe wedge an old bit in
the collet to slow down the turning if it slips on you.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 20:00:56 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:


This may..may be of help

http://www.archive.org/stream/Excell...anual_djvu.txt

pretty garbled, looks same as what Pete found.

Some of those draw bars actually come out the bottom

??? Don't see how that would ever work.

Keep in mind that they lift to tighten and many have a fairly big
tool knob retaining gizmo on the end of them. So in many
machines..they ONLY come out the bottom. That knob on the end of the
draw bar often times ...unscrews.
The Moog/Visimetrics only come out the bottom as do a number of
others.

Gunner

Does this mean anything to you? Mine is a splined power drawbar and it
surely must have a bearing in there because it rotates with almost no
friction. My old series II bridgeport had this.

Karl

--
""Almost all liberal behavioral tropes track the impotent rage of small
children. Thus, for example, there is also the popular tactic of
repeating some stupid, meaningless phrase a billion times" Arms for
hostages, arms for hostages, arms for hostages, it's just about sex, just
about sex, just about sex, dumb,dumb, money in politics,money in
politics, Enron, Enron, Enron. Nothing repeated with mind-numbing
frequency in all major news outlets will not be believed by some members
of the populace. It is the permanence of evil; you can't stop it." (Ann
Coulter)

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 20:20:23 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I just said screw it, and tossed the unit in the press. popped right
out, 30 tons is persuasive.

Discovered problem, LEFT hand threads. Didn't hurt the spindle shaft,
just the mild steel drawbar keeper. So, now i have a lathe fab job.

I guess left threads make sence, the spindle turns right 99.9% of the
time.

Karl



Ayup!



--
""Almost all liberal behavioral tropes track the impotent rage of small
children. Thus, for example, there is also the popular tactic of
repeating some stupid, meaningless phrase a billion times" Arms for
hostages, arms for hostages, arms for hostages, it's just about sex, just
about sex, just about sex, dumb,dumb, money in politics,money in
politics, Enron, Enron, Enron. Nothing repeated with mind-numbing
frequency in all major news outlets will not be believed by some members
of the populace. It is the permanence of evil; you can't stop it." (Ann
Coulter)

....
How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

power drawbars have splined ends with points on the end of the
splines. There's a female mating spline on an electric impact wrench
and an air cylinder to drop it in place.



Deep 7/8" impact socket and pneumatic impact wrench, Karl. Use a
large diameter hose and high pressure air for maximum torque. Try it
both ways to rule out left-hand threads. Maybe wedge an old bit in
the collet to slow down the turning if it slips on you.

Wish I'd ask you BEFORE I broke it

Karl

Larry Jaques wrote:

How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

Old style power drawbars on CNC or even manual mills just drive a
regular threaded drawbar with an impact wrench. Modern CNC drawbars have
a collet on the end that grabs a pull stud on the tool holder, and the
retaining force is provided by a stack of belville spring washers. The
release force is provided by a hydraulic cylinder.

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:33:17 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

power drawbars have splined ends with points on the end of the
splines. There's a female mating spline on an electric impact wrench
and an air cylinder to drop it in place.

OK, that covers the top end, but what about the bottom? Are the bit
adapters tapered and do they have threaded tops like their manual
counterparts? I don't yet grok the mating method, -especially- after
seeing the spindle parts you showed. I only saw female bottoms, if you
will. (quiet, Mikey.


Deep 7/8" impact socket and pneumatic impact wrench, Karl. Use a
large diameter hose and high pressure air for maximum torque. Try it
both ways to rule out left-hand threads. Maybe wedge an old bit in
the collet to slow down the turning if it slips on you.

Wish I'd ask you BEFORE I broke it

I'm glad to share my vast (2+ hours) experience on milling machines
with you.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:57:31 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:33:17 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

power drawbars have splined ends with points on the end of the
splines. There's a female mating spline on an electric impact wrench
and an air cylinder to drop it in place.

OK, that covers the top end, but what about the bottom? Are the bit
adapters tapered and do they have threaded tops like their manual
counterparts? I don't yet grok the mating method, -especially- after
seeing the spindle parts you showed. I only saw female bottoms, if you
will. (quiet, Mikey.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Emuge-CAT-40...-/261218374005

Look for the round gizmo sticking out of the top end of the tool
holder.

And a slightly different type

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SECO-EPB-GRA...-/181175831504

This is a pull stud that gets screwed into the end of a tool holder

http://www.shop.yourtoolingstore.com...45PullStud.jpg




Deep 7/8" impact socket and pneumatic impact wrench, Karl. Use a
large diameter hose and high pressure air for maximum torque. Try it
both ways to rule out left-hand threads. Maybe wedge an old bit in
the collet to slow down the turning if it slips on you.

Wish I'd ask you BEFORE I broke it

I'm glad to share my vast (2+ hours) experience on milling machines
with you.

G


--
""Almost all liberal behavioral tropes track the impotent rage of small
children. Thus, for example, there is also the popular tactic of
repeating some stupid, meaningless phrase a billion times" Arms for
hostages, arms for hostages, arms for hostages, it's just about sex, just
about sex, just about sex, dumb,dumb, money in politics,money in
politics, Enron, Enron, Enron. Nothing repeated with mind-numbing
frequency in all major news outlets will not be believed by some members
of the populace. It is the permanence of evil; you can't stop it." (Ann
Coulter)

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 07:18:03 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:57:31 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:33:17 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

power drawbars have splined ends with points on the end of the
splines. There's a female mating spline on an electric impact wrench
and an air cylinder to drop it in place.

OK, that covers the top end, but what about the bottom? Are the bit
adapters tapered and do they have threaded tops like their manual
counterparts? I don't yet grok the mating method, -especially- after
seeing the spindle parts you showed. I only saw female bottoms, if you
will. (quiet, Mikey.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Emuge-CAT-40...-/261218374005

Look for the round gizmo sticking out of the top end of the tool
holder.

And a slightly different type

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SECO-EPB-GRA...-/181175831504

This is a pull stud that gets screwed into the end of a tool holder

http://www.shop.yourtoolingstore.com...45PullStud.jpg

So there's a grasping mechanism in the spindle which grabs that
button? Or levers to wedge it upwards, seating the tapers together?
Got any photos of cutaways or exploded diagrams? They're always
easiest on my grokker.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:33:17 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

power drawbars have splined ends with points on the end of the
splines. There's a female mating spline on an electric impact wrench
and an air cylinder to drop it in place.



Deep 7/8" impact socket and pneumatic impact wrench, Karl. Use a
large diameter hose and high pressure air for maximum torque. Try it
both ways to rule out left-hand threads. Maybe wedge an old bit in
the collet to slow down the turning if it slips on you.

Wish I'd ask you BEFORE I broke it

Karl
Greetings Karl,
I have an old Index mill that uses the same type of power drawbar.
Even though the splined ends are pointed they would sometimes not
engage the female spline proiperly and the impact wrench would just
spin while trying to knock off the points on the ends of the spline.
So I installed a switch in the common wire to the impact wrench that
would only close when the splines were mated properly. Since then the
power drawbar setup works very well.
Eric

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 07:18:03 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:57:31 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:33:17 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

power drawbars have splined ends with points on the end of the
splines. There's a female mating spline on an electric impact wrench
and an air cylinder to drop it in place.

OK, that covers the top end, but what about the bottom? Are the bit
adapters tapered and do they have threaded tops like their manual
counterparts? I don't yet grok the mating method, -especially- after
seeing the spindle parts you showed. I only saw female bottoms, if you
will. (quiet, Mikey.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Emuge-CAT-40...-/261218374005

Look for the round gizmo sticking out of the top end of the tool
holder.

And a slightly different type

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SECO-EPB-GRA...-/181175831504

This is a pull stud that gets screwed into the end of a tool holder

http://www.shop.yourtoolingstore.com...45PullStud.jpg

So there's a grasping mechanism in the spindle which grabs that
button? Or levers to wedge it upwards, seating the tapers together?
Got any photos of cutaways or exploded diagrams? They're always
easiest on my grokker.

It's an ordinary threaded drawbar - a long glorified bolt. The only
difference is that it is driven by an impact wrench instead of manually
with a hand wrench. Pretty much all the older CNC adaptations of manual
mills were like this, and those power drawbars were also used on manual
mills that were large enough to be a pain to reach the drawbar manually.

Modern CNC machines use a drawbar with a collet that grabs a pull stud
on the tool holder. No rotation, just linear action. The retention force
comes from a stack of belville spring washers on the drawbar. A
hydraulic actuator pushes the drawbar down compressing the spring
washers and allowing the collet to release the pull stud.

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 08:39:56 -0700, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:33:17 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

power drawbars have splined ends with points on the end of the
splines. There's a female mating spline on an electric impact wrench
and an air cylinder to drop it in place.



Deep 7/8" impact socket and pneumatic impact wrench, Karl. Use a
large diameter hose and high pressure air for maximum torque. Try it
both ways to rule out left-hand threads. Maybe wedge an old bit in
the collet to slow down the turning if it slips on you.

Wish I'd ask you BEFORE I broke it

Karl
Greetings Karl,
I have an old Index mill that uses the same type of power drawbar.
Even though the splined ends are pointed they would sometimes not
engage the female spline proiperly and the impact wrench would just
spin while trying to knock off the points on the ends of the spline.
So I installed a switch in the common wire to the impact wrench that
would only close when the splines were mated properly. Since then the
power drawbar setup works very well.
Eric
Now, THAT'S a good idea. I occasionaly grind a pound. Mine happens
when I'm overdue for a shot of air tool oil in the airlines to the
unit.

Karl

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 08:21:22 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 07:18:03 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:57:31 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:33:17 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

power drawbars have splined ends with points on the end of the
splines. There's a female mating spline on an electric impact wrench
and an air cylinder to drop it in place.

OK, that covers the top end, but what about the bottom? Are the bit
adapters tapered and do they have threaded tops like their manual
counterparts? I don't yet grok the mating method, -especially- after
seeing the spindle parts you showed. I only saw female bottoms, if you
will. (quiet, Mikey.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Emuge-CAT-40...-/261218374005

Look for the round gizmo sticking out of the top end of the tool
holder.

And a slightly different type

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SECO-EPB-GRA...-/181175831504

This is a pull stud that gets screwed into the end of a tool holder

http://www.shop.yourtoolingstore.com...45PullStud.jpg

So there's a grasping mechanism in the spindle which grabs that
button? Or levers to wedge it upwards, seating the tapers together?
Got any photos of cutaways or exploded diagrams? They're always
easiest on my grokker.


A grasping mechanism.

Ill see what I can find for you.

One type..using balls

http://www.techniksusa.com/images200...rawbar_web.jpg

Best I could find in a couple minutes searching. Ill pull a page out
of a manual and scan it maybe tomorrow if you still dont get it.

Gunner

--
""Almost all liberal behavioral tropes track the impotent rage of small
children. Thus, for example, there is also the popular tactic of
repeating some stupid, meaningless phrase a billion times" Arms for
hostages, arms for hostages, arms for hostages, it's just about sex, just
about sex, just about sex, dumb,dumb, money in politics,money in
politics, Enron, Enron, Enron. Nothing repeated with mind-numbing
frequency in all major news outlets will not be believed by some members
of the populace. It is the permanence of evil; you can't stop it." (Ann
Coulter)

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:59:00 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 07:18:03 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:57:31 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:33:17 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

power drawbars have splined ends with points on the end of the
splines. There's a female mating spline on an electric impact wrench
and an air cylinder to drop it in place.

OK, that covers the top end, but what about the bottom? Are the bit
adapters tapered and do they have threaded tops like their manual
counterparts? I don't yet grok the mating method, -especially- after
seeing the spindle parts you showed. I only saw female bottoms, if you
will. (quiet, Mikey.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Emuge-CAT-40...-/261218374005

Look for the round gizmo sticking out of the top end of the tool
holder.

And a slightly different type

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SECO-EPB-GRA...-/181175831504

This is a pull stud that gets screwed into the end of a tool holder

http://www.shop.yourtoolingstore.com...45PullStud.jpg

So there's a grasping mechanism in the spindle which grabs that
button? Or levers to wedge it upwards, seating the tapers together?
Got any photos of cutaways or exploded diagrams? They're always
easiest on my grokker.

It's an ordinary threaded drawbar - a long glorified bolt. The only
difference is that it is driven by an impact wrench instead of manually
with a hand wrench. Pretty much all the older CNC adaptations of manual
mills were like this, and those power drawbars were also used on manual
mills that were large enough to be a pain to reach the drawbar manually.

Modern CNC machines use a drawbar with a collet that grabs a pull stud
on the tool holder. No rotation, just linear action. The retention force
comes from a stack of belville spring washers on the drawbar. A
hydraulic actuator pushes the drawbar down compressing the spring
washers and allowing the collet to release the pull stud.

Or visa versa.


--
""Almost all liberal behavioral tropes track the impotent rage of small
children. Thus, for example, there is also the popular tactic of
repeating some stupid, meaningless phrase a billion times" Arms for
hostages, arms for hostages, arms for hostages, it's just about sex, just
about sex, just about sex, dumb,dumb, money in politics,money in
politics, Enron, Enron, Enron. Nothing repeated with mind-numbing
frequency in all major news outlets will not be believed by some members
of the populace. It is the permanence of evil; you can't stop it." (Ann
Coulter)

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:59:00 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 07:18:03 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:57:31 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:33:17 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

power drawbars have splined ends with points on the end of the
splines. There's a female mating spline on an electric impact wrench
and an air cylinder to drop it in place.

OK, that covers the top end, but what about the bottom? Are the bit
adapters tapered and do they have threaded tops like their manual
counterparts? I don't yet grok the mating method, -especially- after
seeing the spindle parts you showed. I only saw female bottoms, if you
will. (quiet, Mikey.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Emuge-CAT-40...-/261218374005

Look for the round gizmo sticking out of the top end of the tool
holder.

And a slightly different type

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SECO-EPB-GRA...-/181175831504

This is a pull stud that gets screwed into the end of a tool holder

http://www.shop.yourtoolingstore.com...45PullStud.jpg

So there's a grasping mechanism in the spindle which grabs that
button? Or levers to wedge it upwards, seating the tapers together?
Got any photos of cutaways or exploded diagrams? They're always
easiest on my grokker.

It's an ordinary threaded drawbar - a long glorified bolt. The only
difference is that it is driven by an impact wrench instead of manually
with a hand wrench. Pretty much all the older CNC adaptations of manual
mills were like this, and those power drawbars were also used on manual
mills that were large enough to be a pain to reach the drawbar manually.

Modern CNC machines use a drawbar with a collet that grabs a pull stud
on the tool holder. No rotation, just linear action. The retention force
comes from a stack of belville spring washers on the drawbar. A
hydraulic actuator pushes the drawbar down compressing the spring
washers and allowing the collet to release the pull stud.

That pretty much reiterates the same info, Pete. What my grokker is
crying out for is the method of actuation. What does the linear
action work on? Does a tapered cone come down onto the retention feet,
or do(es) the feet/foot pivot?

And what actuates the mechanical portion of that? Pneumatics,
hydraulics, what? Thanks in advance.



--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 01:36:05 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 08:21:22 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 07:18:03 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:57:31 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:33:17 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

power drawbars have splined ends with points on the end of the
splines. There's a female mating spline on an electric impact wrench
and an air cylinder to drop it in place.

OK, that covers the top end, but what about the bottom? Are the bit
adapters tapered and do they have threaded tops like their manual
counterparts? I don't yet grok the mating method, -especially- after
seeing the spindle parts you showed. I only saw female bottoms, if you
will. (quiet, Mikey.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Emuge-CAT-40...-/261218374005

Look for the round gizmo sticking out of the top end of the tool
holder.

And a slightly different type

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SECO-EPB-GRA...-/181175831504

This is a pull stud that gets screwed into the end of a tool holder

http://www.shop.yourtoolingstore.com...45PullStud.jpg

So there's a grasping mechanism in the spindle which grabs that
button? Or levers to wedge it upwards, seating the tapers together?
Got any photos of cutaways or exploded diagrams? They're always
easiest on my grokker.


A grasping mechanism.

Ill see what I can find for you.

One type..using balls

http://www.techniksusa.com/images200...rawbar_web.jpg

Best I could find in a couple minutes searching. Ill pull a page out
of a manual and scan it maybe tomorrow if you still dont get it.

OK, so a pressure on the top end of the drawbar compresses the springs
and gives room for the balls to float and release the retention knob?
By Jove, I think I've got it!

If you find exploded diagrams of other methods, I'd love to see them,
too.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 20:46:51 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 08:39:56 -0700, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:33:17 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

power drawbars have splined ends with points on the end of the
splines. There's a female mating spline on an electric impact wrench
and an air cylinder to drop it in place.



Deep 7/8" impact socket and pneumatic impact wrench, Karl. Use a
large diameter hose and high pressure air for maximum torque. Try it
both ways to rule out left-hand threads. Maybe wedge an old bit in
the collet to slow down the turning if it slips on you.

Wish I'd ask you BEFORE I broke it

Karl
Greetings Karl,
I have an old Index mill that uses the same type of power drawbar.
Even though the splined ends are pointed they would sometimes not
engage the female spline proiperly and the impact wrench would just
spin while trying to knock off the points on the ends of the spline.
So I installed a switch in the common wire to the impact wrench that
would only close when the splines were mated properly. Since then the
power drawbar setup works very well.
Eric
Now, THAT'S a good idea. I occasionaly grind a pound. Mine happens
when I'm overdue for a shot of air tool oil in the airlines to the
unit.

Has anyone ever found an automatic oiler which works as stated?
sigh

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:59:00 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 07:18:03 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:57:31 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:33:17 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

power drawbars have splined ends with points on the end of the
splines. There's a female mating spline on an electric impact wrench
and an air cylinder to drop it in place.

OK, that covers the top end, but what about the bottom? Are the bit
adapters tapered and do they have threaded tops like their manual
counterparts? I don't yet grok the mating method, -especially- after
seeing the spindle parts you showed. I only saw female bottoms, if you
will. (quiet, Mikey.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Emuge-CAT-40...-/261218374005

Look for the round gizmo sticking out of the top end of the tool
holder.

And a slightly different type

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SECO-EPB-GRA...-/181175831504

This is a pull stud that gets screwed into the end of a tool holder

http://www.shop.yourtoolingstore.com...45PullStud.jpg

So there's a grasping mechanism in the spindle which grabs that
button? Or levers to wedge it upwards, seating the tapers together?
Got any photos of cutaways or exploded diagrams? They're always
easiest on my grokker.

It's an ordinary threaded drawbar - a long glorified bolt. The only
difference is that it is driven by an impact wrench instead of manually
with a hand wrench. Pretty much all the older CNC adaptations of manual
mills were like this, and those power drawbars were also used on manual
mills that were large enough to be a pain to reach the drawbar manually.

Modern CNC machines use a drawbar with a collet that grabs a pull stud
on the tool holder. No rotation, just linear action. The retention force
comes from a stack of belville spring washers on the drawbar. A
hydraulic actuator pushes the drawbar down compressing the spring
washers and allowing the collet to release the pull stud.

That pretty much reiterates the same info, Pete. What my grokker is
crying out for is the method of actuation. What does the linear
action work on? Does a tapered cone come down onto the retention feet,
or do(es) the feet/foot pivot?

And what actuates the mechanical portion of that? Pneumatics,
hydraulics, what? Thanks in advance.


http://www.techniksusa.com/metal/holder_maintenance.htm

http://www.compumachine.com/Support/...0_VMC_4020.pdf

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 09:20:08 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:59:00 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 07:18:03 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:57:31 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:33:17 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

power drawbars have splined ends with points on the end of the
splines. There's a female mating spline on an electric impact wrench
and an air cylinder to drop it in place.

OK, that covers the top end, but what about the bottom? Are the bit
adapters tapered and do they have threaded tops like their manual
counterparts? I don't yet grok the mating method, -especially- after
seeing the spindle parts you showed. I only saw female bottoms, if you
will. (quiet, Mikey.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Emuge-CAT-40...-/261218374005

Look for the round gizmo sticking out of the top end of the tool
holder.

And a slightly different type

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SECO-EPB-GRA...-/181175831504

This is a pull stud that gets screwed into the end of a tool holder

http://www.shop.yourtoolingstore.com...45PullStud.jpg

So there's a grasping mechanism in the spindle which grabs that
button? Or levers to wedge it upwards, seating the tapers together?
Got any photos of cutaways or exploded diagrams? They're always
easiest on my grokker.

It's an ordinary threaded drawbar - a long glorified bolt. The only
difference is that it is driven by an impact wrench instead of manually
with a hand wrench. Pretty much all the older CNC adaptations of manual
mills were like this, and those power drawbars were also used on manual
mills that were large enough to be a pain to reach the drawbar manually.

Modern CNC machines use a drawbar with a collet that grabs a pull stud
on the tool holder. No rotation, just linear action. The retention force
comes from a stack of belville spring washers on the drawbar. A
hydraulic actuator pushes the drawbar down compressing the spring
washers and allowing the collet to release the pull stud.

That pretty much reiterates the same info, Pete. What my grokker is
crying out for is the method of actuation. What does the linear
action work on? Does a tapered cone come down onto the retention feet,
or do(es) the feet/foot pivot?

And what actuates the mechanical portion of that? Pneumatics,
hydraulics, what? Thanks in advance.


http://www.techniksusa.com/metal/holder_maintenance.htm

Yeah, I think Gunner linked the image from there. It helped a lot.


http://www.compumachine.com/Support/...0_VMC_4020.pdf

404 error.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 20:46:51 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 08:39:56 -0700, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 05:33:17 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
How is the CNC drawbar engaged? (curious) I thought drawbars were
just glorified, dual-threaded long bolts which engaged the bit from
the top, drawing it into the tapered spindle hole.

power drawbars have splined ends with points on the end of the
splines. There's a female mating spline on an electric impact wrench
and an air cylinder to drop it in place.



Deep 7/8" impact socket and pneumatic impact wrench, Karl. Use a
large diameter hose and high pressure air for maximum torque. Try it
both ways to rule out left-hand threads. Maybe wedge an old bit in
the collet to slow down the turning if it slips on you.

Wish I'd ask you BEFORE I broke it

Karl
Greetings Karl,
I have an old Index mill that uses the same type of power drawbar.
Even though the splined ends are pointed they would sometimes not
engage the female spline proiperly and the impact wrench would just
spin while trying to knock off the points on the ends of the spline.
So I installed a switch in the common wire to the impact wrench that
would only close when the splines were mated properly. Since then the
power drawbar setup works very well.
Eric
Now, THAT'S a good idea. I occasionaly grind a pound. Mine happens
when I'm overdue for a shot of air tool oil in the airlines to the
unit.

Karl
Glad I could help.
Eric

fired this volley in
:

I have an old Index mill that uses the same type of power drawbar.
Even though the splined ends are pointed they would sometimes not
engage the female spline proiperly and the impact wrench would just
spin while trying to knock off the points on the ends of the spline.
So I installed a switch in the common wire to the impact wrench that
would only close when the splines were mated properly. Since then the
power drawbar setup works very well.
Eric

Explain more about that, Eric. Does it simply detect the distance the
spines have engaged, or is there some sort of radial alignment detection?

Lloyd

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 06:49:32 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


Karl
Greetings Karl,
I have an old Index mill that uses the same type of power drawbar.
Even though the splined ends are pointed they would sometimes not
engage the female spline proiperly and the impact wrench would just
spin while trying to knock off the points on the ends of the spline.
So I installed a switch in the common wire to the impact wrench that
would only close when the splines were mated properly. Since then the
power drawbar setup works very well.
Eric
Now, THAT'S a good idea. I occasionaly grind a pound. Mine happens
when I'm overdue for a shot of air tool oil in the airlines to the
unit.

Has anyone ever found an automatic oiler which works as stated?
sigh

Actually...yes. Machine tools are often home to 2-5 of them. From
the Bjur to many other flavors. That being said..there are many
different applications and lubers for each application

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_lubricator

You most certainly dont want to put a luber on the output from the air
tank. That means every air line in the house gets oil. Not good when
using air to spritz the dust out of a TV or control box. Same with
using air hoses on the end of a luber. That air hose quickly becomes
oil soaked and will occasionally spit out a blob of oil..not something
you want to happen when you are spray painting your restored car.

The best way is to put a luber on its own stub and use it for nothing
whatsoever but for the machine its supposed to be lubing..with its
very own dedicated air hose.

This is the brand I use mostly..but there are others out there equally
as good.

http://www.htetechnologies.com/vendo...%20Fluid%20Air

That being said...there is absolutely nothing wrong when using air
tools..with simply squirting some air tool oil (just about an oil)
into the input fitting once or twice a day if you are using it
throughout the day.

http://www.harborfreight.com/16-fl-o...oil-68095.html

My favorite of course is Marvel Mystery Oil. A quart is about $9 and
will last freaking YEARS.

Gunner



--
""Almost all liberal behavioral tropes track the impotent rage of small
children. Thus, for example, there is also the popular tactic of
repeating some stupid, meaningless phrase a billion times" Arms for
hostages, arms for hostages, arms for hostages, it's just about sex, just
about sex, just about sex, dumb,dumb, money in politics,money in
politics, Enron, Enron, Enron. Nothing repeated with mind-numbing
frequency in all major news outlets will not be believed by some members
of the populace. It is the permanence of evil; you can't stop it." (Ann
Coulter)

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 14:31:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 06:49:32 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


Karl
Greetings Karl,
I have an old Index mill that uses the same type of power drawbar.
Even though the splined ends are pointed they would sometimes not
engage the female spline proiperly and the impact wrench would just
spin while trying to knock off the points on the ends of the spline.
So I installed a switch in the common wire to the impact wrench that
would only close when the splines were mated properly. Since then the
power drawbar setup works very well.
Eric
Now, THAT'S a good idea. I occasionaly grind a pound. Mine happens
when I'm overdue for a shot of air tool oil in the airlines to the
unit.

Has anyone ever found an automatic oiler which works as stated?
sigh

Actually...yes. Machine tools are often home to 2-5 of them. From
the Bjur to many other flavors. That being said..there are many

I don't mean pressurized oil, I meant oil-misted compressed air.


different applications and lubers for each application

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_lubricator

You most certainly dont want to put a luber on the output from the air
tank. That means every air line in the house gets oil. Not good when
using air to spritz the dust out of a TV or control box. Same with
using air hoses on the end of a luber. That air hose quickly becomes
oil soaked and will occasionally spit out a blob of oil..not something
you want to happen when you are spray painting your restored car.

The best way is to put a luber on its own stub and use it for nothing
whatsoever but for the machine its supposed to be lubing..with its
very own dedicated air hose.

That's the only place I'd use one, at the machine input. But I've
never trusted the FRLs, even from the well-known & exotic HFT.
Except for removing moisture and particulates.


This is the brand I use mostly..but there are others out there equally
as good.

http://www.htetechnologies.com/vendo...%20Fluid%20Air

That being said...there is absolutely nothing wrong when using air
tools..with simply squirting some air tool oil (just about an oil)
into the input fitting once or twice a day if you are using it
throughout the day.

http://www.harborfreight.com/16-fl-o...oil-68095.html

My favorite of course is Marvel Mystery Oil. A quart is about $9 and
will last freaking YEARS.

That's precisely what I have always done, MMO. It has as pleasant a
smell as Hoppe's #9.

--
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to
succeed is more important than any one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln

My favorite of course is Marvel Mystery Oil. A quart is about $9 and
will last freaking YEARS.

That's precisely what I have always done, MMO. It has as pleasant a
smell as Hoppe's #9.


I tried to convince my better half to use Hoppe's #9 for her
perfume... Told here there is nothing that would turn a man on more
than smelling #9 on a lady.

I'm with you, those little inline air oilers don't work for ****. Now,
the hardinge inline oiler on my CHNC hasn't failed yet - its 30 years
old.

Karl

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 19:23:23 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 14:31:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 06:49:32 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


Karl
Greetings Karl,
I have an old Index mill that uses the same type of power drawbar.
Even though the splined ends are pointed they would sometimes not
engage the female spline proiperly and the impact wrench would just
spin while trying to knock off the points on the ends of the spline.
So I installed a switch in the common wire to the impact wrench that
would only close when the splines were mated properly. Since then the
power drawbar setup works very well.
Eric
Now, THAT'S a good idea. I occasionaly grind a pound. Mine happens
when I'm overdue for a shot of air tool oil in the airlines to the
unit.

Has anyone ever found an automatic oiler which works as stated?
sigh

Actually...yes. Machine tools are often home to 2-5 of them. From
the Bjur to many other flavors. That being said..there are many

I don't mean pressurized oil, I meant oil-misted compressed air.

Indeed. Bjur also makes misters.


different applications and lubers for each application

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_lubricator

You most certainly dont want to put a luber on the output from the air
tank. That means every air line in the house gets oil. Not good when
using air to spritz the dust out of a TV or control box. Same with
using air hoses on the end of a luber. That air hose quickly becomes
oil soaked and will occasionally spit out a blob of oil..not something
you want to happen when you are spray painting your restored car.

The best way is to put a luber on its own stub and use it for nothing
whatsoever but for the machine its supposed to be lubing..with its
very own dedicated air hose.

That's the only place I'd use one, at the machine input. But I've
never trusted the FRLs, even from the well-known & exotic HFT.
Except for removing moisture and particulates.


This is the brand I use mostly..but there are others out there equally
as good.

http://www.htetechnologies.com/vendo...%20Fluid%20Air

That being said...there is absolutely nothing wrong when using air
tools..with simply squirting some air tool oil (just about an oil)
into the input fitting once or twice a day if you are using it
throughout the day.

http://www.harborfreight.com/16-fl-o...oil-68095.html

My favorite of course is Marvel Mystery Oil. A quart is about $9 and
will last freaking YEARS.

That's precisely what I have always done, MMO. It has as pleasant a
smell as Hoppe's #9.

--
""Almost all liberal behavioral tropes track the impotent rage of small
children. Thus, for example, there is also the popular tactic of
repeating some stupid, meaningless phrase a billion times" Arms for
hostages, arms for hostages, arms for hostages, it's just about sex, just
about sex, just about sex, dumb,dumb, money in politics,money in
politics, Enron, Enron, Enron. Nothing repeated with mind-numbing
frequency in all major news outlets will not be believed by some members
of the populace. It is the permanence of evil; you can't stop it." (Ann
Coulter)