http://www.engravingartist.com/tour/shaper/index.html

Incredible work!


--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

Yes, he did a fine job. What was the red colored compound he was smearing
over the castings and then sanding down?

Garrett Fulton

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...


http://www.engravingartist.com/tour/shaper/index.html

Incredible work!


--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

On Sun, 12 May 2013 08:08:47 -0400, "Garrett"
wrote:

Yes, he did a fine job. What was the red colored compound he was smearing
over the castings and then sanding down?

It looks like lacquer-based scratch-filling putty, used in auto body
painting prep.

If so, he has skin like a rhino. g

Ed Huntress




Garrett Fulton

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .


http://www.engravingartist.com/tour/shaper/index.html

Incredible work!

On Sun, 12 May 2013 08:08:47 -0400, "Garrett"
wrote:

Yes, he did a fine job. What was the red colored compound he was smearing
over the castings and then sanding down?

Probably Bondo.



Garrett Fulton

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .


http://www.engravingartist.com/tour/shaper/index.html

Incredible work!

--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

He did a good job restoring a pretty useless machine.

i

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

Other than that, where are they using them for commercial machining?
They're great hobby machines for the reasons you describe. But that
doesn't translate to commercial viability.


They don't make much sense in a 'general machine shop' unless the shop
has high production on a few parts. They're still used effectively in
medium-run production shops. One of their nice features is that they're
"set and forget" devices. Sort of like a programmable surface grinder,
they just go 'til they're done, then stop.

They don't fill the niche they used to, because of the advent of so many
CNC-controlled cutting methods available now, but they still have a place
in factories.

I disagree with the (next) poster as to their usefulness for the hobby
shop. It's a few square feet and several hundreds of pounds of wasted
weight and floor space for a hobby shop. 3D CAD/CAM takes over for one-
offs.

Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley in
. 3.70:

I disagree with the (next) poster

wait... that was you. I still disagree with their use in a hobby shop, if
that shop has CNC.

Lloyd

John B. fired this volley in
:

I know of one specific place that uses shapers not mills - they have
several, with long travels (30 feet) - the cutter travels on a bridge
like affair - they make press brake dies with them - they have bins of
blue curly swarf from the tool steel die material - very impressive
machines

Sounds more like a Planer, rather than a Shaper :-)


Everyone keeps saying that!
Doesn't anybody read the OPs anymore?

He said, "...they make press brake dies with them ".

Since press brake dies usually require some sort of grooved profile, and
since the basic difference between 'planer' and 'shaper' is the shape of
the blade and work -- shapers being relegated to grooves and edging,
mostly...


BTW... one other common use for long-throw shapers over the years has
been for hobbiests to convert them into manual milling machines. I've
seen a number of them in service, mostly made from old Logans.

LLoyd

On Mon, 13 May 2013 06:37:22 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
:

I know of one specific place that uses shapers not mills - they have
several, with long travels (30 feet) - the cutter travels on a bridge
like affair - they make press brake dies with them - they have bins of
blue curly swarf from the tool steel die material - very impressive
machines

Sounds more like a Planer, rather than a Shaper :-)


Everyone keeps saying that!
Doesn't anybody read the OPs anymore?

He said, "...they make press brake dies with them ".

Since press brake dies usually require some sort of grooved profile, and
since the basic difference between 'planer' and 'shaper' is the shape of
the blade and work -- shapers being relegated to grooves and edging,
mostly...


BTW... one other common use for long-throw shapers over the years has
been for hobbiests to convert them into manual milling machines. I've
seen a number of them in service, mostly made from old Logans.

LLoyd


I never heard of a shaper with a 30 foot stroke. I've seen a planer
like that in a museum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planer_%28metalworking%29

Pete Keillor

On 2013-05-13, Pete Keillor wrote:
On Mon, 13 May 2013 06:37:22 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
m:

I know of one specific place that uses shapers not mills - they have
several, with long travels (30 feet) - the cutter travels on a bridge
like affair - they make press brake dies with them - they have bins of
blue curly swarf from the tool steel die material - very impressive
machines

Sounds more like a Planer, rather than a Shaper :-)


Everyone keeps saying that!
Doesn't anybody read the OPs anymore?

He said, "...they make press brake dies with them ".

Since press brake dies usually require some sort of grooved profile, and
since the basic difference between 'planer' and 'shaper' is the shape of
the blade and work -- shapers being relegated to grooves and edging,
mostly...


BTW... one other common use for long-throw shapers over the years has
been for hobbiests to convert them into manual milling machines. I've
seen a number of them in service, mostly made from old Logans.

LLoyd


I never heard of a shaper with a 30 foot stroke. I've seen a planer
like that in a museum.

I saw one with a 20+ foot stroke, bid on it to scrap it, but lost.

i

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planer_%28metalworking%29

Pete Keillor

On Mon, 13 May 2013 06:37:22 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
:

I know of one specific place that uses shapers not mills - they have
several, with long travels (30 feet) - the cutter travels on a bridge
like affair - they make press brake dies with them - they have bins of
blue curly swarf from the tool steel die material - very impressive
machines

Sounds more like a Planer, rather than a Shaper :-)


Everyone keeps saying that!
Doesn't anybody read the OPs anymore?

He said, "...they make press brake dies with them ".

Since press brake dies usually require some sort of grooved profile, and
since the basic difference between 'planer' and 'shaper' is the shape of
the blade and work -- shapers being relegated to grooves and edging,
mostly...


Err... the basic difference between planers and shapers is that a
planer table moves and the tool is stationary while shapers are quite
the opposite. Nothing that I've seen restricts one, or the other to
any specific type of cut.



BTW... one other common use for long-throw shapers over the years has
been for hobbiests to convert them into manual milling machines. I've
seen a number of them in service, mostly made from old Logans.

LLoyd

--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. fired this volley in
:

Err... the basic difference between planers and shapers is that a
planer table moves and the tool is stationary while shapers are quite
the opposite. Nothing that I've seen restricts one, or the other to
any specific type of cut.

Exactly. And the machine that was described had a moving tool. But no
one ever seems to reads the OP. They just re-word the problem to their
solution.

Lloyd

On Mon, 13 May 2013 19:28:00 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
:

Err... the basic difference between planers and shapers is that a
planer table moves and the tool is stationary while shapers are quite
the opposite. Nothing that I've seen restricts one, or the other to
any specific type of cut.

Exactly. And the machine that was described had a moving tool. But no
one ever seems to reads the OP. They just re-word the problem to their
solution.

Lloyd

Lloyd, here's what the OP said:

I know of one specific place that uses shapers not mills - they have
several, with long travels (30 feet) - the cutter travels on a bridge
like affair - they make press brake dies with them - they have bins of
blue curly swarf from the tool steel die material - very impressive machines.

Where have you ever seen a shaper with a 30 foot travel?

I figure the OP just got confused over which part was travelling.

There were some planers with travelling gantries, but I don't think
any were made in the US like that. They were late entrants, from those
Eastern European countries that made all kinds of special, enormous
machines, and they were used for work on huge stationary and marine
engines. I saw photos of them when I was at American Machinist but I
never saw one in the US.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

Where have you ever seen a shaper with a 30 foot travel?

I figure the OP just got confused over which part was travelling.



I haven't. I've seen them with travels in excess of 12 feet, and they
were, in fact, moving-tool shapers, not planers.

On the second part -- "you figure", but instead of asking for
clarification, you just refute the OP's statement.

Why? That's either calling him stupid or a liar. Why not ask?

LLoyd

On Mon, 13 May 2013 20:25:35 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

Where have you ever seen a shaper with a 30 foot travel?

I figure the OP just got confused over which part was travelling.



I haven't. I've seen them with travels in excess of 12 feet, and they
were, in fact, moving-tool shapers, not planers.

On the second part -- "you figure", but instead of asking for
clarification, you just refute the OP's statement.

Why? That's either calling him stupid or a liar. Why not ask?

LLoyd

Because once he said "30 foot travel," I knew it wasn't a shaper. And
having watched big planers at work, machining lathe beds, it wouldn't
be hard to get confused over which part was travelling.

They don't make shapers with 30 feet of travel, Lloyd. They never did.
And what would the "bridge-like affair" be, if it was a shaper?

--
Ed Huntress

Iggy, I think you can figure this one out for yourself. Shapers were
obsolete by 1970. Since then, most of them have been scrapped or
gathered dust. And it wasn't CNC that killed them off. It was their
slow part-to-part production speed.

As I said, I've seen two actually operating in commercial shops since
1974. Both were squaring up mold bases, which is a traditional job for
them.

For a hobbyist, the cheap tooling is an attraction. So is cutting
square-cornered internal holes, if you make falling-block rifles or
valve gear for historical steam engines -- hobby work.



What other machine could you use to cut an internal keyway in a blind hole?

John

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

They don't make shapers with 30 feet of travel, Lloyd. They never did.
And what would the "bridge-like affair" be, if it was a shaper?


A traveler. In the Valejo shipyards, I saw a shaper once where the work
sat flat on a twin-bed affair like a lathe bed. The cutter traveled UNDER
the bed, on a separate set of ways between the two work-bed surfaces.

I don't know what it was (brand, etc), except it was a shaper. It might
have been custom-built for the Navy. But it was long, the work laid
flat, and the tooling moved UNDER the work.

The way it was built, it could've been 100 feet long (or a mile), and it
still would've worked just the same.

Lloyd

On Mon, 13 May 2013 20:49:06 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

They don't make shapers with 30 feet of travel, Lloyd. They never did.
And what would the "bridge-like affair" be, if it was a shaper?


A traveler. In the Valejo shipyards, I saw a shaper once where the work
sat flat on a twin-bed affair like a lathe bed. The cutter traveled UNDER
the bed, on a separate set of ways between the two work-bed surfaces.

Oh, jeez. So what was it doing, cutting shapes, or planing surfaces?

I think you're stretching the term, although I'd have to see that one
to make a point about what to call it. As I said, there have been some
traveling-gantry planers made, and they were planing long, straight
surfaces, like a conventional planer. If that machine you're
describing is doing the same, I'd call it a planer.

But I'd have to see the workpieces.


I don't know what it was (brand, etc), except it was a shaper. It might
have been custom-built for the Navy. But it was long, the work laid
flat, and the tooling moved UNDER the work.

Why are you calling it a shaper, if it's planing long surfaces?

Here's an old traveling-head planer (page 1074):

http://tinyurl.com/brzc6vm

Here's another one:

http://tinyurl.com/bu3y6eu



The way it was built, it could've been 100 feet long (or a mile), and it
still would've worked just the same.

Lloyd

The terms for these machines were once based on the kind of work they
do: planing, analagous to planing wood, and cutting out shapes. There
were also traveling-head shapers as well as traveling-head planers;
the traveling head on a shaper was intended for a different purpose,
however, as the "traveling" was along a horizontal axis. It allowed
the shaper to cut wider workpieces. If you go 'way back in time, there
were all kinds of configurations.

Anyway, whatever the OP saw, it was a planer if it had 30 feet of
travel. That's not for cutting out shapes. It's for planing long ways,
cylinder heads, bending-brake tooling, and, probably the primary uses
in the really old days, cutting a variety of things for the railroad
and marine-equipment industries that required long straight cuts.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 13 May 2013 21:47:36 -0400, John
wrote:

snip
What other machine could you use to cut an internal keyway in a blind hole?
snip

light bulb edm

rig up insulating tool holder and use mill. Slow but price
is right. You can use hex or spline key as electrode to
burn internal hex or spline to size. Article shows lash-up
using drawer slide and all-thread for vertical movement.

http://pico-systems.com/edm.html



-----------

for fancier dedicated machine see
http://www.homeshopmachinist.net/sto...oredirect=true
----------
Arnold Gregrich in Home Shop Machinist (October/November
2002).
The initial test results were disappointing to say the least. Using
plain tap water, I could hardly get any sparking at all. When it
did
spark, there didn't seem to be enough power to start a hole, much
less burn clean through a piece of 1/16" thick steel. I changed
over
to deionized water with no real improvement. The sparks seem to
wander and not concentrate in one area.
These are the specs: Used two 3600 uf caps, a 400V rectifier and
200
watt light bulbs in both sockets.
==========

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/thr...iagnostic-help

-------------

Let the group know how you make out.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

"John" wrote in message
...





Iggy, I think you can figure this one out for yourself. Shapers were
obsolete by 1970. Since then, most of them have been scrapped or
gathered dust. And it wasn't CNC that killed them off. It was their
slow part-to-part production speed.

As I said, I've seen two actually operating in commercial shops since
1974. Both were squaring up mold bases, which is a traditional job for
them.

For a hobbyist, the cheap tooling is an attraction. So is cutting
square-cornered internal holes, if you make falling-block rifles or
valve gear for historical steam engines -- hobby work.



What other machine could you use to cut an internal keyway in a blind
hole?



I use a VMC with the spindle locked in oriented position but the same can be
done on a lathe...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArRQhpHGtro

On Mon, 13 May 2013 21:49:07 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"John" wrote in message
m...





Iggy, I think you can figure this one out for yourself. Shapers were
obsolete by 1970. Since then, most of them have been scrapped or
gathered dust. And it wasn't CNC that killed them off. It was their
slow part-to-part production speed.

As I said, I've seen two actually operating in commercial shops since
1974. Both were squaring up mold bases, which is a traditional job for
them.

For a hobbyist, the cheap tooling is an attraction. So is cutting
square-cornered internal holes, if you make falling-block rifles or
valve gear for historical steam engines -- hobby work.



What other machine could you use to cut an internal keyway in a blind
hole?



I use a VMC with the spindle locked in oriented position but the same can be
done on a lathe...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArRQhpHGtro

Your reference looks very like a shaper :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
news
Why are you calling it a shaper, if it's planing long surfaces?

It seems like _everyone_ this week taken to twisting words of a post to
their own meaning so they can make their non-sequitor answers fit the
problem? Not just misunderstanding a post, no; actually changing the
terms to fit their arguments! Where the heck do you read the word
"planing" in _anything_ I wrote? I never even IMPLIED 'planing'. The
closest to that was the word 'cutter'.

It was cutting profiled grooves in large slabs of bronze, when I saw it.

I have no idea what the parts were -- if they were bushings, it seems
like they'd have been better made on a lathe, even if they were clamshell
style bearings. I also cannot understand the advantage of cutting the
bottom-side surface, where it's impossible to check the profile, except
at the very end of the slab.

It really looked like a dumb idea, but it was sitting there stroking
along piling chips on the floor, so they obviously had some practical use
for it.

I am only reporting it. And all I know about it is that it was ACTING as
a shaper when I saw it running. Maybe it planed, too, but it could have
only planed the surface to a width of the space between the bed
memebers... which iirc was about 18"-24".


LLoyd

"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this
volley in news:CYGdnb8eIcfaXwzMnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@scnresearch. com:

I use a VMC with the spindle locked in oriented position but the same
can be done on a lathe...


Yup... I have a one set of indexable-insert boring bars that have been
converted with custom-ground inserts into lathe keyway cutters.

LLoyd

On Tue, 14 May 2013 18:27:46 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 13 May 2013 21:49:07 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"John" wrote in message
om...





Iggy, I think you can figure this one out for yourself. Shapers were
obsolete by 1970. Since then, most of them have been scrapped or
gathered dust. And it wasn't CNC that killed them off. It was their
slow part-to-part production speed.

As I said, I've seen two actually operating in commercial shops since
1974. Both were squaring up mold bases, which is a traditional job for
them.

For a hobbyist, the cheap tooling is an attraction. So is cutting
square-cornered internal holes, if you make falling-block rifles or
valve gear for historical steam engines -- hobby work.



What other machine could you use to cut an internal keyway in a blind
hole?



I use a VMC with the spindle locked in oriented position but the same can be
done on a lathe...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArRQhpHGtro

Your reference looks very like a shaper :-)

Sure does. Now a shaper costs..what...$250-800?

How much did that Colchester and CNC package cost?


--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

On Mon, 13 May 2013 19:28:00 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
:

Err... the basic difference between planers and shapers is that a
planer table moves and the tool is stationary while shapers are quite
the opposite. Nothing that I've seen restricts one, or the other to
any specific type of cut.

Exactly. And the machine that was described had a moving tool. But no
one ever seems to reads the OP. They just re-word the problem to their
solution.

Lloyd


I was replying to the following classification of a shaper...

"Since press brake dies usually require some sort of grooved profile,
and since the basic difference between 'planer' and 'shaper' is the
shape of the blade and work -- shapers being relegated to grooves and
edging, mostly... "

As I said, the difference is in whether the tool, or the work, moves.
Not in tool shape or whether the edges are being machined.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2013-05-14, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

It was cutting profiled grooves in large slabs of bronze, when I saw it.

I have no idea what the parts were -- if they were bushings, it seems
like they'd have been better made on a lathe, even if they were clamshell
style bearings. I also cannot understand the advantage of cutting the
bottom-side surface, where it's impossible to check the profile, except
at the very end of the slab.

It really looked like a dumb idea, but it was sitting there stroking
along piling chips on the floor, so they obviously had some practical use
for it.

I suspect that one advantage of that setup is the clearing of
chips by pure gravity instead of either re-cutting the same chips, or
needing air or flood coolant to blow them away.

Depends on how difficult it is to get the chips out from under
the machine. Perhaps there is a conveyer to do it automatically?

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this
volley in news:CYGdnb8eIcfaXwzMnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@scnresearch. com:

I use a VMC with the spindle locked in oriented position but the same
can be done on a lathe...


Yup... I have a one set of indexable-insert boring bars that have been
converted with custom-ground inserts into lathe keyway cutters.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-SQUARE-TOO...-/360657118852

But you can also take any suitable piece of shafting you've got laying
around, drill and tap the end for a setscrew, and then cross drill it to
accept a round bit that you've made out of something like an old center
drill.

--lay your 4th axis onto it's side and you can cut splines, internal (and
external) ratchets and spurs; square, hex, and octagonal socket recesses,
etc...