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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#81
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 17:46:08 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote: Tom Gardner wrote: Eventually, fusion power will be the best solution until some new energy source comes along, maybe antimatter. I wonder how the leftists will take THAT! (If leftists still exist) Har! Perhaps The Cull will have taken them by then. Fusion turns out to be a LOT harder than anybody thought. It's too bad that harmonics didn't play the part they did in the movie "Chain Reaction". We'd be there by now. Physicists have been saying it is 10 years away for 50+ years, now. Tokamak looked promising until you understand the surface area to volume relationship, then it becomes obvious you can't have a thread of plasma many meters long at 10 megaKelvins, all the heat leaks away. The only hope is a VERY compact plasma, and that is a hard state to maintain. And, the implosion devices are most likely to self destruct due to the massive thermal cycling. Not immediately, but it seems like they would end up requiring huge amounts of maintenance. From material degradation? -- Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing. -- Abraham Lincoln |
#82
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
"J. Clarke" wrote in message Antimatter's not going to be an energy source. It may be a dandy storage method, but it's not going to be a source unless a large naturally occurring nearby supply of antimatter is discovered. That asteroid is coming closerrrr.................. |
#84
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 20:39:07 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote: wrote in message .. . .. What is the AVERAGE age of the north american automotive fleet?? As of June, 2012, the average age of an automobile is 11 years I went out and reassured my cars that they are all above average. jsw mine are generally old enough to vote before they retire. |
#85
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 19:20:49 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote: On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 19:52:02 -0400, wrote: On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 11:23:29 -0400, Joseph Gwinn wrote: In your analysis, you need to cover the full lifecycle cost, which includes making the car in the first place. Cars only last on average seven years, so making them is a major component of both cost and carbon impact. Batteries in particular are expensive to make, don't have a very large capacity compared to a gas tank, and don't last all that long. What is the AVERAGE age of the north american automotive fleet?? As of June, 2012, the average age of an automobile is 11 years My daily driver was built in 2001 Thats 11 yrs old. Few of my friends drive anything younger than 8 yrs old. Just replaced my wife's 16 year old (1996) Mystique - daughter's boyfriend is driving it while he waits for insurance settlement on his stolen 2005 C300H. It was a replacement for her 22 year old (1988) New Yorker. |
#86
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On 6/27/2012 6:46 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote: Eventually, fusion power will be the best solution until some new energy source comes along, maybe antimatter. I wonder how the leftists will take THAT! (If leftists still exist) Fusion turns out to be a LOT harder than anybody thought. Physicists have been saying it is 10 years away for 50+ years, now. Tokamak looked promising until you understand the surface area to volume relationship, then it becomes obvious you can't have a thread of plasma many meters long at 10 megaKelvins, all the heat leaks away. The only hope is a VERY compact plasma, and that is a hard state to maintain. And, the implosion devices are most likely to self destruct due to the massive thermal cycling. Not immediately, but it seems like they would end up requiring huge amounts of maintenance. Jon It only 10 years away! (this time may be the charm) |
#87
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On 6/27/2012 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , Mars@Tacks says... On 6/26/2012 9:30 PM, Larry Jaques wrote: On Tue, 26 Jun 2012 12:25:46 -0400, "Jim Wilkins" wrote: "PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message And before anyone starts suggests that government ought to take over, using taxpayer dollars, you need to realize that someone's taxes would need to go up, and that government-control of energy production is a textbook example of socialism. The government has owned and controlled energy production since 1933: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_Valley_Authority "The Kentucky Sierra Club called the [2008 Kingston] disaster the "worst environmental disaster since Chernobyl"." "The disaster continues to poison lakes and stream as well as potentially the drinking water of millions." Who knew? Coal plants emit radioactive materials into the air and store many more in the ash. With the exception of Fukushima, nuke plants don't. Wait until we get the Keystone pipeline from Canada to Texas. It'll be spilling oil into the main rivers (and maybe seeping into the Oglalla Aquifer) in no time. And with all the fracking going on nowadays, half the aquifers in the USA stand to be affected. How many different seven-to-twenty syllable toxic chemicals would you like in your water today? -- Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing. -- Abraham Lincoln Eventually, fusion power will be the best solution until some new energy source comes along, maybe antimatter. I wonder how the leftists will take THAT! (If leftists still exist) Antimatter's not going to be an energy source. It may be a dandy storage method, but it's not going to be a source unless a large naturally occurring nearby supply of antimatter is discovered. Can anyone say "Dark Energy"? |
#88
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On 6/27/2012 3:24 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
Take a look at the Honda Civic Hybrid. I get over 50 MPG in mixed city/hwy driving. I just did an 1100 mile round trip to a conference, with 600+ Lbs of junk in the car (plus me) and going 70 MPH on the highway in beastly heat, I got 46 MPG. If I ran a bit slower with less weight, I'd get 49 or so. The HCH is a LOT cheaper than the Volt. Jon And, I don't have to subsidize it! |
#89
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
In article ,
Ignoramus28574 wrote: On 2012-06-27, Joseph Gwinn wrote: In article , Ignoramus25088 wrote: On 2012-06-26, wrote: On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:52:01 -0700, a friend wrote: On 6/25/2012 8:26 PM, wrote: On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 22:08:16 -0500, Ignoramus6950 wrote: I was thinking about electric cars today. An internal combustion car, burns fuel inside cylinders and produces energy according to Carnot cycle. Say, it makes 28% of energy from the total BTU of fuel that it burns. Compare it with an electric car. A coal electric power station operates at efficiency of 33% (Wikipedia). Then 10% of this is lost in power distribution. More lost in stepping down line voltage to 220 volts. Further, more is lost in a battery charger. Then more is lost in the car battery. Then more heat is lost in motor windings and power semiconductors. This is probably by far less efficient than internal combustion an distribution of gasoline! And how is it going to reduce CO2 emissions, if more CO2 needs to be burned as coal than would come from gasoline? i The only way it really "saves" anything is with hydro power, solar, wind, or atomic. Possibly Natural gas. the analysis above is flawed. First, if you use gasoline, energy is lost in transporting it to the gas stations, pumping it, refining it, etc. Second, energy efficiency is only part of the problem, the other problem is emissions. even the cleanest car emits more pollutants per unit of energy produced than a fixed plant. So, if you worry about breathing, there is a second part of the story to consider. Actually, todays cars burn cleaner than MOST coal fired power plants. And HYDROcarbons burn less carbon that pure carbons, a.k.a. coal. That's because hydrocarbons also burn hydrogen. So, what emits less carbon, a coal fires power station transmitting power, used to charge batteries, or a hydrocarbon burning carm is not obvious. In your analysis, you need to cover the full lifecycle cost, which includes making the car in the first place. Cars only last on average seven years, so making them is a major component of both cost and carbon impact. Batteries in particular are expensive to make, don't have a very large capacity compared to a gas tank, and don't last all that long. As others have pointed out, gasoline engines in cars are maybe 20% efficient, whereas coal fired power plants are more like 40%, coalpile to bussbar, but transmission and battery inefficiency eat much of that advantage up. Batteries are not all that efficient at storing energy. The basic advantage of a hybrid is that the battery handles the pulse loads, like accelerating into traffic, so the gas engine can be sized for cruise, and so can be smaller (about one half) and operates nearer to its optimum rpm and load. Joe Gwinn I am a big believer in hybrids, as a matter of fact. I am now seriously thinking about getting a small car, because I drive around a lot in my surplus business, and I hate to pay for the gas guzzling pickup truck when it is not necessary. A hybrid is definitely a very prominent possibility for me. If you are looking for a small car, I would consider a diesel Golf from VW. A friend of mine has one, and is very happy with it. It gets 40 or 50 mpg (if memory serves), and he gets ~600 miles to a tank. And the heating and air conditioner work. I bet it's a lot cheaper than a hybrid as well. Joe Gwinn |
#90
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
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#91
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Used Car Prices was Are electric cars more energy efficient?
Gunner Asch on Wed, 27 Jun 2012 19:20:49 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 19:52:02 -0400, wrote: On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 11:23:29 -0400, Joseph Gwinn wrote: In your analysis, you need to cover the full lifecycle cost, which includes making the car in the first place. Cars only last on average seven years, so making them is a major component of both cost and carbon impact. Batteries in particular are expensive to make, don't have a very large capacity compared to a gas tank, and don't last all that long. What is the AVERAGE age of the north american automotive fleet?? As of June, 2012, the average age of an automobile is 11 years My daily driver was built in 2001 Thats 11 yrs old. Few of my friends drive anything younger than 8 yrs old. About twenty years ago, there was a referendum to make Washington car tabs $30, instead of the formula based on an unrealistic depreciation schedule. (Olympia figured that your car was worth MSR for the firs three years.) My observation was that this would make buying a new car "pencil" out for a lot of people with three/four year old car. Which would be in turn bought by folks selling their six to eight year old cars. Which would in turn be bough by folks selling off their 10 year or older cars - which is the price point I could afford. Trickle down car sales. I can live with it. tschus pyotr -- pyotr Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb. |
#92
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
Gunner Asch on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 01:48:26 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Few of my friends drive anything younger than 8 yrs old. Just replaced my wife's 16 year old (1996) Mystique - daughter's boyfriend is driving it while he waits for insurance settlement on his stolen 2005 C300H. It was a replacement for her 22 year old (1988) New Yorker. My ex drives a 97 Saturn. (15 yrs) My first car was 15 years old when I bought it from Dad. (63 Fairlane) My second car was a year older - a 62 Falcon. Only it was ten years later, so it was a "classic". Then I got a 10 year old Toyota, which I drove for eleven years. Sigh. I'll know when I get rich because I can afford Suggest Retail Price. tschus pyotr -- pyotr Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb. |
#93
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
Gunner Asch on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 08:11:49 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: I am a big believer in hybrids, as a matter of fact. I am now seriously thinking about getting a small car, because I drive around a lot in my surplus business, and I hate to pay for the gas guzzling pickup truck when it is not necessary. A hybrid is definitely a very prominent possibility for me. If you are looking for a small car, I would consider a diesel Golf from VW. A friend of mine has one, and is very happy with it. It gets 40 or 50 mpg (if memory serves), and he gets ~600 miles to a tank. And the heating and air conditioner work. I bet it's a lot cheaper than a hybrid as well. Joe Gwinn A number of my cronies drive these, several on home brew bio diesel and all are very happy with them Diesel hybrids? I like the idea of a hybrid for those short, around town trips. (Of course, I live where such trips are more possible.) Let the electric motor handle the stop and go traffic, with the gas engine for when you can get up to speed. -- pyotr Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb. |
#94
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
Gunner Asch on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 08:58:02 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: The average age has varied, and tends to increase during recessions and decrease when times are good. The 7 years is the amortization period for cars used in business. And I keep my cars for at least that long, usually longer. I buy them new and start looking for the next car when they get to 100,000 miles, because I don't want to deal with all the repairs that come as the car starts to wear out. I used to keep them far longer, but it became too much of a hassle. Joe Gwinn You must be driving junk..or driving very little. I seldom EVER have any issues of any note before 200,000 miles with any vehicle made after 1996. Now if a person only drives 5000-8000 a year..vehicles do need a bit more work, as the parts "age" and lose lubrication and seals simply sitting there, or being run and never getting actually up to operating temperature. The classic "Little Old Lady who only drove it to Church." Unless she went to a church fifteen miles away - so that the engine can get up to temps. Or the Salesman forgot to mention the car was formerly owned by a Little old Lady from Pasadena. Who only drive it to the Church of NASCAR, and races it. B-) -- pyotr Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb. |
#95
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 09:45:44 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote: Gunner Asch on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 01:48:26 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Few of my friends drive anything younger than 8 yrs old. Just replaced my wife's 16 year old (1996) Mystique - daughter's boyfriend is driving it while he waits for insurance settlement on his stolen 2005 C300H. It was a replacement for her 22 year old (1988) New Yorker. My ex drives a 97 Saturn. (15 yrs) My first car was 15 years old when I bought it from Dad. (63 Fairlane) My second car was a year older - a 62 Falcon. Only it was ten years later, so it was a "classic". Then I got a 10 year old Toyota, which I drove for eleven years. Sigh. I'll know when I get rich because I can afford Suggest Retail Price. No, you'll know you're rich when you walk in to the Killing Room at the local Car Stealership and say "See this wad of Green Folding Cash I have here? I already have three other offers for identical vehicles - Forget the Sticker, what's your REAL price?" -- Bruce -- |
#96
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
Larry Jaques wrote:
The Honda Civic Hybrids get good reviews: -very- good gas mileage and don't feel like they're made of cardboard, unlike the leading hybrid from my favorite company. My daughter sheared off an 18" power pole with my last one and flipped it onto the roof, but walked away from it. It had a huge dent all the way to the engine block, but the doors still opened and closed perfectly. I was VERY impressed. Jon |
#97
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
whoyakidding wrote:
Plenty of shorter drives and charging at least partly from solar panels I'll install. This doesn't work. The Volt has an 18 KVA battery pack, I think. To get 18 KVA from a set of solar cells, you'd need the roof space of a good-sized commercial building. One face of a typical home will get you a couple KW for a few hours a day, so MAYBE a halfway charge overt a full day. A big enough solar cell array to perform a full charge on one day might cost MORE than the car! If so, the cost to operate it looks really good! If you will be going more than 28 miles or so on a typical day's driving before recharging, then it starts to look really bad, and many cars on the road will actually do BETTER! It appears the Volt gets about 26 MPG on gasoline. CR got 37 combined if I remember right. I'm reading expect 35 and sometimes get 40 on trips. 37, 35, 40? Are these numbers range on electric power or MPG? The MPG numbers I've seen INLCUDE powering it electrically until the battery is depleted, THEN switching to gasoline, and counting the wall-power as free! The Volt outweighs the Civic by about 30% but is quicker. Apples and oranges. Anyway a large part of my theory here is that I don't want to merely do what's cheapest for me. Yep, those batteries are heavy. But, my HCH experience is from 50K + miles in one. I'm certainly a satisfied customer. Jon |
#98
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
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#99
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
Ignoramus28574 wrote:
The reactor is American, I would call it American engineering. Yup, a 1960's US design. Only a couple of that vintage are still running in the US, and not for much longer. I think those have been upgraded a bit on their safety systems, while the Fukushima Dai-ichi #1 had relatively few updates. That reactor had damn little provisions for handling a station blackout condition. The others there had pretty good systems (a steam-turbine operated cooler for removal of residual heat) and all that needed to be provided was battery power to keep the valves open. It would have been better design to have the valves stay where they were set on loss of battery power, or have a little gas generator to keep the battery bank charged. I mean, really, a $500 home power generator could have kept units 2 and 3 from blowing up! I think all US reactors are higher from the sea, lake or river than those were. Putting the plant THAT close to the sea was just complete idiocy, but once you've made such a huge mistake, it is real hard to change that. Jon |
#100
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
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#101
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:30:20 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:
(...) I think all US reactors are higher from the sea, lake or river than those were. With exceptions. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ns/thumb/7/7d/ Aerial_San_Onofre_Generating_Station_May_2012.JPG/800px- Aerial_San_Onofre_Generating_Station_May_2012.JPG --Winston |
#102
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On 6/28/2012 3:30 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
I think all US reactors are higher from the sea, lake or river than those were. Putting the plant THAT close to the sea was just complete idiocy, but once you've made such a huge mistake, it is real hard to change that. Off the top of my head, of that vintage and type reactor, I can think of Oyster Creek, on Oyster Creek (Barnegat Bay) at 43 ft ASL, and the Brunswick plant on the Cape Fear river at 25 ft ASL. I am sure you can find more. Kevin Gallimore |
#103
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:30:20 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote: Ignoramus28574 wrote: The reactor is American, I would call it American engineering. Yup, a 1960's US design. Only a couple of that vintage are still running in the US, and not for much longer. I think those have been upgraded a bit on their safety systems, while the Fukushima Dai-ichi #1 had relatively few updates. Just an translation errata: Dai-Ichi = Number One. (Know that much.) Thank you. The Department of Redundancy Department. And yeah, their planning sucked. Now we know better... But back then they were just thinking "Hey, why should we pump this sea-water up any higher than we have to just to get it to the heat exchangers? We'll save a lot of energy that way." Now they would put the plant 1/4 mile onshore on top of a high bluff, and/or have a huge series of energy-absorbing breakwater earthworks between the plant and the shore - and a dike around the whole thing. And the power utility trying to license the new reactor would STILL be complaining about the costs of "unnecessary precautions" for events that couldn't possibly play out that way. -- Bruce -- |
#104
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:15:42 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote: whoyakidding wrote: Plenty of shorter drives and charging at least partly from solar panels I'll install. This doesn't work. Congratulations you are now qualified to work at the Chevy dealer I visited. The Volt has an 18 KVA battery pack, I think. To get 18 KVA from a set of solar cells Think energy instead of power. The Volt's useable capacity is about 10kwh ($1 at average utility rate). It takes about 12 hours to charge from a standard 120V outlet or 3 hours from a standard 240V outlet. , you'd need the roof space of a good-sized commercial building. Arf arf. One face of a typical home will get you a couple KW for a few hours a day, 1800 sq ft square single story = single wall face 43.5 ft X 8' = 349 sq ft = about 3.4kw actual X 4 hours average (location dependant) = 13.6kwh. Approximately enough to fully charge the car 7 days per week. Less required if you don't drive every day or use the full battery every day of driving. Example: if your commute is 20 miles round trip then you might only charge 3 times per week and could either live in Seattle or downsize the array to suit. so MAYBE a halfway charge overt a full day. A big enough solar cell array to perform a full charge on one day might cost MORE than the car! A full charge on a Volt requires about 13kwh. Note the hour part. http://gm-volt.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-5610.html Some approximate numbers off the top of my head: if one's daily mileage averages half the cars battery range then the array could be about 10 of these or the equivalent plus the usual grid inverter etc. http://www.sunelec.com/evergreen-sol...-b-p-1623.html Adjust size to suit owner's miles and location. I'm considering installing enough for the car and my home's use. PV is cheap right now so I may go overboard and shoot for running a net surplus. CR got 37 combined if I remember right. I'm reading expect 35 and sometimes get 40 on trips. 37, 35, 40? Are these numbers range on electric power or MPG? The numbers I used were the gas only numbers. The MPG numbers I've seen INLCUDE powering it electrically until the battery is depleted, THEN switching to gasoline, and counting the wall-power as free! Sample quote from one of the links I provided in the post you responded to: "The EPA officially gave the Volt a 35 city/40 highway mpg rating without using stored battery power, but in my experience that charge-sustaining fuel economy on the highway was closer to 43 mpg (yes, that's calculated without any grid-filled battery input)" This chart https://www.voltstats.net/ is also useful. |
#105
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:14:07 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote: In article , wrote: On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 11:23:29 -0400, Joseph Gwinn wrote: In your analysis, you need to cover the full lifecycle cost, which includes making the car in the first place. Cars only last on average seven years, so making them is a major component of both cost and carbon impact. Batteries in particular are expensive to make, don't have a very large capacity compared to a gas tank, and don't last all that long. What is the AVERAGE age of the north american automotive fleet?? As of June, 2012, the average age of an automobile is 11 years The average age has varied, and tends to increase during recessions and decrease when times are good. The 7 years is the amortization period for cars used in business. And I keep my cars for at least that long, usually longer. I buy them new and start looking for the next car when they get to 100,000 miles, because I don't want to deal with all the repairs that come as the car starts to wear out. I used to keep them far longer, but it became too much of a hassle. Joe Gwinn I BUY mine with 100000km (60,000 miles) on them about 5 years old - except for this last one that was 10 years old and had 30,000 miles on it. 5-6 thousand bucks a crack - drive them for another 10 years or untill the body falls off. The New Yorker had 240,000 km on it and a solid body when I SOLD it - not scrapped it. |
#106
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
In article ,
Gunner Asch wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:14:07 -0400, Joseph Gwinn wrote: In article , wrote: On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 11:23:29 -0400, Joseph Gwinn wrote: In your analysis, you need to cover the full lifecycle cost, which includes making the car in the first place. Cars only last on average seven years, so making them is a major component of both cost and carbon impact. Batteries in particular are expensive to make, don't have a very large capacity compared to a gas tank, and don't last all that long. What is the AVERAGE age of the north american automotive fleet?? As of June, 2012, the average age of an automobile is 11 years The average age has varied, and tends to increase during recessions and decrease when times are good. The 7 years is the amortization period for cars used in business. And I keep my cars for at least that long, usually longer. I buy them new and start looking for the next car when they get to 100,000 miles, because I don't want to deal with all the repairs that come as the car starts to wear out. I used to keep them far longer, but it became too much of a hassle. Joe Gwinn You must be driving junk..or driving very little. I seldom EVER have any issues of any note before 200,000 miles with any vehicle made after 1996. Now if a person only drives 5000-8000 a year..vehicles do need a bit more work, as the parts "age" and lose lubrication and seals simply sitting there, or being run and never getting actually up to operating temperature. I'm betting that you drive far more miles a year than I, because I'm not running up and down California. I average 10,000 to 12,000 miles a year. Joe Gwinn |
#107
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On 28 Jun 2012 20:19:26 GMT, Winston wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:30:20 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: (...) I think all US reactors are higher from the sea, lake or river than those were. With exceptions. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ns/thumb/7/7d/ Aerial_San_Onofre_Generating_Station_May_2012.J PG/800px- Aerial_San_Onofre_Generating_Station_May_2012.J PG I thought SONGS was way the hell up the hill from the sea, Winnie. I lived 16 miles kinda downwind of it for 36 years. But looking at the pic, I see that they carved the cliffs down and set it closer to sea level. It does look to be at risk, but a seawall would fix that in a hurry for only a few dozen million ducats. Anyway, those cliffs to the right are at least 80' tall, which is why I thought SONGS was elevated. I only hiked 'em once (rt). OK, I see that they're 30' up. http://tinyurl.com/4dkt8ek I think I'd feel safer with an extra 20' seawall, anyway. -- Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing. -- Abraham Lincoln |
#108
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:03:04 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: The Honda Civic Hybrids get good reviews: -very- good gas mileage and don't feel like they're made of cardboard, unlike the leading hybrid from my favorite company. My daughter sheared off an 18" power pole with my last one and flipped it onto the roof, but walked away from it. It had a huge dent all the way to the engine block, but the doors still opened and closed perfectly. I was VERY impressed. civic? -- Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing. -- Abraham Lincoln |
#109
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:15:42 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote: whoyakidding wrote: Plenty of shorter drives and charging at least partly from solar panels I'll install. This doesn't work. The Volt has an 18 KVA battery pack, I think. To get 18 KVA from a set of solar cells, you'd need the roof space of a good-sized commercial building. One face of a typical home will get you a couple KW for a few hours a day, so MAYBE a halfway charge overt a full day. A big enough solar cell array to perform a full charge on one day might cost MORE than the car! If so, the cost to operate it looks really good! If you will be going more than 28 miles or so on a typical day's driving before recharging, then it starts to look really bad, and many cars on the road will actually do BETTER! It appears the Volt gets about 26 MPG on gasoline. CR got 37 combined if I remember right. I'm reading expect 35 and sometimes get 40 on trips. 37, 35, 40? Are these numbers range on electric power or MPG? The MPG numbers I've seen INLCUDE powering it electrically until the battery is depleted, THEN switching to gasoline, and counting the wall-power as free! The Volt outweighs the Civic by about 30% but is quicker. Apples and oranges. Anyway a large part of my theory here is that I don't want to merely do what's cheapest for me. Yep, those batteries are heavy. But, my HCH experience is from 50K + miles in one. I'm certainly a satisfied customer. Jon Jon, please include at least a sentence of the quoted text so we, anyone, will know WTF you're talking about. -- Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing. -- Abraham Lincoln |
#110
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:12:54 -0700, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human
readable)" wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 09:45:44 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote: Gunner Asch on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 01:48:26 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Few of my friends drive anything younger than 8 yrs old. Just replaced my wife's 16 year old (1996) Mystique - daughter's boyfriend is driving it while he waits for insurance settlement on his stolen 2005 C300H. It was a replacement for her 22 year old (1988) New Yorker. My ex drives a 97 Saturn. (15 yrs) My first car was 15 years old when I bought it from Dad. (63 Fairlane) My second car was a year older - a 62 Falcon. Only it was ten years later, so it was a "classic". Then I got a 10 year old Toyota, which I drove for eleven years. Sigh. I'll know when I get rich because I can afford Suggest Retail Price. No, you'll know you're rich when you walk in to the Killing Room at the local Car Stealership and say "See this wad of Green Folding Cash I have here? I already have three other offers for identical vehicles - Forget the Sticker, what's your REAL price?" That's absolutely the way to do it, but you can fool the jerks with a wad of mostly ones if you want to be dirty about it. g -- Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing. -- Abraham Lincoln |
#111
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
Larry Jaques on Thu, 28 Jun 2012
20:39:41 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:12:54 -0700, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)" wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 09:45:44 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote: Gunner Asch on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 01:48:26 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Few of my friends drive anything younger than 8 yrs old. Just replaced my wife's 16 year old (1996) Mystique - daughter's boyfriend is driving it while he waits for insurance settlement on his stolen 2005 C300H. It was a replacement for her 22 year old (1988) New Yorker. My ex drives a 97 Saturn. (15 yrs) My first car was 15 years old when I bought it from Dad. (63 Fairlane) My second car was a year older - a 62 Falcon. Only it was ten years later, so it was a "classic". Then I got a 10 year old Toyota, which I drove for eleven years. Sigh. I'll know when I get rich because I can afford Suggest Retail Price. No, you'll know you're rich when you walk in to the Killing Room at the local Car Stealership and say "See this wad of Green Folding Cash I have here? I already have three other offers for identical vehicles - Forget the Sticker, what's your REAL price?" That's absolutely the way to do it, but you can fool the jerks with a wad of mostly ones if you want to be dirty about it. g Not my desire. I want to be able to send my driver down to the dealership with some petty cash, and have him pick out a new one. Only this time, he gets to pick the color. tschus pyotr -- pyotr Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb. |
#112
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:29:45 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 28 Jun 2012 20:19:26 GMT, Winston wrote: (...) With exceptions. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ns/thumb/7/7d/ Aerial_San_Onofre_Generating_Station_May_2012.JP G/800px- Aerial_San_Onofre_Generating_Station_May_2012.JP G I thought SONGS was way the hell up the hill from the sea, Winnie. I lived 16 miles kinda downwind of it for 36 years. But looking at the pic, I see that they carved the cliffs down and set it closer to sea level. As the limerick goes:"Perhaps it's a trick of perspective..." It sure looks to be only slightly ASL to me, though. (Shudder). It does look to be at risk, but a seawall would fix that in a hurry for only a few dozen million ducats. Anyway, those cliffs to the right are at least 80' tall, which is why I thought SONGS was elevated. I only hiked 'em once (rt). OK, I see that they're 30' up. http://tinyurl.com/4dkt8ek I think I'd feel safer with an extra 20' seawall, anyway. Yes, that is taller than the 19 - footer at Fukushima.... --Winnie |
#113
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On 29 Jun 2012 13:22:25 GMT, Winston wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:29:45 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote: On 28 Jun 2012 20:19:26 GMT, Winston wrote: (...) With exceptions. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ns/thumb/7/7d/ Aerial_San_Onofre_Generating_Station_May_2012.J PG/800px- Aerial_San_Onofre_Generating_Station_May_2012.J PG I thought SONGS was way the hell up the hill from the sea, Winnie. I lived 16 miles kinda downwind of it for 36 years. But looking at the pic, I see that they carved the cliffs down and set it closer to sea level. As the limerick goes:"Perhaps it's a trick of perspective..." It sure looks to be only slightly ASL to me, though. (Shudder). Yabbut, it's 30'. It does look to be at risk, but a seawall would fix that in a hurry for only a few dozen million ducats. Anyway, those cliffs to the right are at least 80' tall, which is why I thought SONGS was elevated. I only hiked 'em once (rt). OK, I see that they're 30' up. http://tinyurl.com/4dkt8ek I think I'd feel safer with an extra 20' seawall, anyway. Yes, that is taller than the 19 - footer at Fukushima.... Not on the beach, silly, up around the buildings, totaling 50' ASL. -- Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing. -- Abraham Lincoln |
#114
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:33:39 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:15:42 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: whoyakidding wrote: Plenty of shorter drives and charging at least partly from solar panels I'll install. This doesn't work. The Volt has an 18 KVA battery pack, I think. To get 18 KVA from a set of solar cells, you'd need the roof space of a good-sized commercial building. One face of a typical home will get you a couple KW for a few hours a day, so MAYBE a halfway charge overt a full day. A big enough solar cell array to perform a full charge on one day might cost MORE than the car! If so, the cost to operate it looks really good! If you will be going more than 28 miles or so on a typical day's driving before recharging, then it starts to look really bad, and many cars on the road will actually do BETTER! It appears the Volt gets about 26 MPG on gasoline. CR got 37 combined if I remember right. I'm reading expect 35 and sometimes get 40 on trips. 37, 35, 40? Are these numbers range on electric power or MPG? The MPG numbers I've seen INLCUDE powering it electrically until the battery is depleted, THEN switching to gasoline, and counting the wall-power as free! The Volt outweighs the Civic by about 30% but is quicker. Apples and oranges. Anyway a large part of my theory here is that I don't want to merely do what's cheapest for me. Yep, those batteries are heavy. But, my HCH experience is from 50K + miles in one. I'm certainly a satisfied customer. Jon Jon, please include at least a sentence of the quoted text so we, anyone, will know WTF you're talking about. Please pardon me for the brain fart. I had accidentally turned off quoted text and everyone's posts were showing up that way. First time in over a decade, too. -- Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing. -- Abraham Lincoln |
#115
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
On Fri, 29 Jun 2012 06:36:58 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 29 Jun 2012 13:22:25 GMT, Winston wrote: (...) Yes, that is taller than the 19 - footer at Fukushima.... Not on the beach, silly, up around the buildings, totaling 50' ASL. I'm not certain 50' is enough. Mother Nature is BIG. http://geology.com/records/biggest-tsunami.shtml "Midway between the head of the bay and Cenotaph Island the wave appeared to be a straight wall of water possibly 100 feet high, extending from shore to shore." --Winston |
#116
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
Larry Jaques on Thu, 28 Jun 2012
20:39:41 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:12:54 -0700, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)" wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 09:45:44 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote: Gunner Asch on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 01:48:26 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Few of my friends drive anything younger than 8 yrs old. Just replaced my wife's 16 year old (1996) Mystique - daughter's boyfriend is driving it while he waits for insurance settlement on his stolen 2005 C300H. It was a replacement for her 22 year old (1988) New Yorker. My ex drives a 97 Saturn. (15 yrs) My first car was 15 years old when I bought it from Dad. (63 Fairlane) My second car was a year older - a 62 Falcon. Only it was ten years later, so it was a "classic". Then I got a 10 year old Toyota, which I drove for eleven years. Sigh. I'll know when I get rich because I can afford Suggest Retail Price. No, you'll know you're rich when you walk in to the Killing Room at the local Car Stealership and say "See this wad of Green Folding Cash I have here? I already have three other offers for identical vehicles - Forget the Sticker, what's your REAL price?" That's absolutely the way to do it, but you can fool the jerks with a wad of mostly ones if you want to be dirty about it. g My German Teacher called what you describe as a "Feeby (FBI) Bankroll." She then reverse the wad so the dollar bill was on the outside "And this is a Scottish Bankroll". -- pyotr Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb. |
#117
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Are electric cars more energy efficient?
Gunner Asch wrote: My daily driver was built in 2001 Thats 11 yrs old. My Dakota is a '97 model. |
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