http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...=2012303050059

I thought it might be of interest to some. Please don't use it as a
springboard to schoolyard political insults.

Kevin Gallimore

"axolotl" wrote in message ...

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...=2012303050059

I thought it might be of interest to some. Please don't use it as a
springboard to schoolyard political insults.

Kevin Gallimore

http://www.reshorenow.org/

"Harry Moser's career in manufacturing and related areas has spanned four decades, with twenty-two of those years as president of Charmilles Technologies Corporation, now GF AgieCharmilles. During his tenure at Charmilles Technologies Corporation, Harry transformed the company from 6th in its industry to 1st in eight years. A long-time supporter of workforce development and U.S. manufacturing, Moser was named in 2010 to the Industry Week Manufacturing Hall of Fame, and has held leadership positions with the NTMA, National Institute for Metalworking Skills' Board and the Swiss Machine Tool Society. Harry's broad knowledge and experience in the areas of manufacturing economics, international trade and workforce development uniquely equip him to lead the reshoring effort in the U.S."

--

On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:52:55 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"axolotl" wrote in message ...

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...=2012303050059

I thought it might be of interest to some. Please don't use it as a
springboard to schoolyard political insults.

Kevin Gallimore

http://www.reshorenow.org/

"Harry Moser's career in manufacturing and related areas has spanned four decades, with twenty-two of those years as president of Charmilles Technologies Corporation, now GF AgieCharmilles. During his tenure at Charmilles Technologies Corporation, Harry transformed the company from 6th in its industry to 1st in eight years. A long-time supporter of workforce development and U.S. manufacturing, Moser was named in 2010 to the Industry Week Manufacturing Hall of Fame, and has held leadership positions with the NTMA, National Institute for Metalworking Skills' Board and the Swiss Machine Tool Society. Harry's broad knowledge and experience in the areas of manufacturing economics, international trade and workforce development uniquely equip him to lead the reshoring effort in the U.S."

Harry is a great guy and an ideal candidate for this role. I haven't
seen him for 20 years, and I haven't talked to him for around 10, but
I used to know him pretty well.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:52:55 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"axolotl" wrote in message ...

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...=2012303050059

I thought it might be of interest to some. Please don't use it as a
springboard to schoolyard political insults.

Kevin Gallimore

http://www.reshorenow.org/

"Harry Moser's career in manufacturing and related areas has spanned four decades, with twenty-two of those years as president of Charmilles Technologies Corporation, now GF AgieCharmilles. During his tenure at Charmilles Technologies Corporation, Harry transformed the company from 6th in its industry to 1st in eight years. A long-time supporter of workforce development and U.S. manufacturing, Moser was named in 2010 to the Industry Week Manufacturing Hall of Fame, and has held leadership positions with the NTMA, National Institute for Metalworking Skills' Board and the Swiss Machine Tool Society. Harry's broad knowledge and experience in the areas of manufacturing economics, international trade and workforce development uniquely equip him to lead the reshoring effort in the U.S."

Harry is a great guy and an ideal candidate for this role. I haven't
seen him for 20 years, and I haven't talked to him for around 10, but
I used to know him pretty well.



He's my newest hero and I'd be perfectly happy if there were a lot more like him.

And a whole lot less of the sports figures, hollywood celebrities and so forth that so many seem to instead hold in such high esteem these days.

axolotl wrote:


http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...=2012303050059

I thought it might be of interest to some. Please don't use it as a
springboard to schoolyard political insults.

Kevin Gallimore
Interesting! Two manual mills in the picture, not sure what
other machinery they have.

Jon

I happen to believe that the writing is on the wall, and it should be
crystal clear by now.. but I also believe that almost no one learns
anything.

Any product that needs to be built right, can't/shouldn't/won't be built in
China.

I read recently that thousands of manufacturing plants in China had closed
recently (don't know what their products were).

China can be Wham-marts supplier of throw-away goods, but companies
interested in growth, not just today's profit margins, will need to have
their products made elsewhere.
I don't have anything against the Chinese workers, I suspect that they just
want to earn a decent wage and provide for their families like most other
workers.

China produces products to tonnage quotas, not to any acceptable quality
standards.. they know how to cut corners that most of us can't even imagine.

A complete manufacturing facility was built in China decades ago by
investors to produce Jeeps IIRC, and after much frustration, the project was
just abandoned, having never produced even one vehicle.

I recently became interested in guitars again, and have been reading
experiences of fans of Epiphone guitars needing to return new models for
numerous types of obvious defects.
The one buyer returned 6 defective new models because they were all faulty
right out of the box.. obviously results of no testing being performed at
the manufacturing facility.
Epiphone has built it's own manufacturing facilities in China, and the
quality of a legendary product name is spiraling downward out of control.
Each of their products are labeled with a statement similar to: Inspected
and set up in the U.S.A., and yet the US dealers are fairly regularly
receiving defective products.

One can essentially buy a fake Gibson copy of better quality than that of a
genuine Epiphone.
Epiphone has a network of independent privately owned dealers marketing the
Epiphone products, but the dealers are increasingly acting as return agents
of defective products, sacrificing profits and overhead expenses on inferior
products that buyers won't own.
Many of the returned products aren't the cheapest models, but instead, the
much more expensive premium products.

Big company execs can apparently only see dollar signs in profit margins,
without recognizing that customer loyalty is what pays for it all.
In general, execs whine about having to be, or being forced to be
competitive in the marketplace, and that cutting costs will benefit the
consumers, but it's basically all bull****.

Some companies manage to have quality products produced in China, but that
doesn't mean that they don't also suffer losses from high failure rates..
but I suspect that it's more likely that they just perform more thorough
quality control and/or testing before the products get to the end users.. a
second level of manufacturing that can't be entrusted to the producers of
the products.

--
WB
..........


"axolotl" wrote in message
...

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...=2012303050059

I thought it might be of interest to some. Please don't use it as a
springboard to schoolyard political insults.

Kevin Gallimore

On 3/6/2012 10:48 PM, Wild_Bill wrote:
I happen to believe that the writing is on the wall, and it should be
crystal clear by now.. but I also believe that almost no one learns
anything.

Any product that needs to be built right, can't/shouldn't/won't be built
in China.

[...]

You are deluding yourself. There is a continuum of quality, and
sometimes top of the line with finer tolerances isn't needed and isn't
cost effective. China is going to keep manufacturing a lot of things,
and the quality is only going to get better over time.

40 years ago, people were saying the same things about Japanese
manufacturing. My younger brother was a fairly typical gearhead
mechanic in those days, and they all referred to Japanese cars as "Jap
crap." Look where that attitude got the American car companies.

A couple of decades later it was the South Koreans. Their stuff was
called junk. Today, LG appliances, Samsung electronics, Hyundai cars
and several other products are world beaters.

If you think China is not going to continue to grow and improve at
manufacturing, you are delusional and probably a menace to the safety of
your family and colleagues.

"Donn Messenheimer" wrote in message
...
On 3/6/2012 10:48 PM, Wild_Bill wrote:
I happen to believe that the writing is on the wall, and it should be
crystal clear by now.. but I also believe that almost no one learns
anything.

Any product that needs to be built right, can't/shouldn't/won't be built
in China.

[...]

You are deluding yourself. There is a continuum of quality, and sometimes
top of the line with finer tolerances isn't needed and isn't cost
effective. China is going to keep manufacturing a lot of things, and the
quality is only going to get better over time.

40 years ago, people were saying the same things about Japanese
manufacturing. My younger brother was a fairly typical gearhead mechanic
in those days, and they all referred to Japanese cars as "Jap crap." Look
where that attitude got the American car companies.

A couple of decades later it was the South Koreans. Their stuff was
called junk. Today, LG appliances, Samsung electronics, Hyundai cars and
several other products are world beaters.

If you think China is not going to continue to grow and improve at
manufacturing, you are delusional and probably a menace to the safety of
your family and colleagues.

Chinese manufacturing will improve in quality, but it seems like it is
happening more slowly than Japan or Korea due an ingrained culture of
corruption from years of communism. Quality certs are routinely faked. The
only way to get real quality is to have a good personal relationship so that
the consequences of fraud become personal. Even then any crook in the
supply chain can screw things up. It requires a major effort on the part of
the customer to insure quality, but it can be done. Despite the issues of
worker exploitation, the iPad/iPhone production line seems to produce pretty
good quality.

Another advantage to manufacturing in the US is something that most
executives (who are mostly trained in juggling/counting money) do not
appreciate. That is the synergy that happens between engineering and
manufacturing. Each learns from the other. Without good interaction,
engineering might not ever know what did not work so well the first time.
They will not know what processes are easy or hard for manufacting.
Manufacturing might take a very long time to solve problems that engineering
could resolve very quickly, or manufacturing might solve it in a way that is
detrimental to the product in some way.

"Donn Messenheimer" wrote in message
...
On 3/6/2012 10:48 PM, Wild_Bill wrote:
I happen to believe that the writing is on the wall, and it should be
crystal clear by now.. but I also believe that almost no one learns
anything.

Any product that needs to be built right, can't/shouldn't/won't be built
in China.

[...]

You are deluding yourself. There is a continuum of quality, and sometimes
top of the line with finer tolerances isn't needed and isn't cost
effective. China is going to keep manufacturing a lot of things, and the
quality is only going to get better over time.

40 years ago, people were saying the same things about Japanese
manufacturing. My younger brother was a fairly typical gearhead mechanic
in those days, and they all referred to Japanese cars as "Jap crap." Look
where that attitude got the American car companies.

A couple of decades later it was the South Koreans. Their stuff was
called junk. Today, LG appliances, Samsung electronics, Hyundai cars and
several other products are world beaters.

If you think China is not going to continue to grow and improve at
manufacturing, you are delusional and probably a menace to the safety of
your family and colleagues.

You are a delusional fool.

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 23:29:28 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

axolotl wrote:


http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...=2012303050059

I thought it might be of interest to some. Please don't use it as a
springboard to schoolyard political insults.

Kevin Gallimore
Interesting! Two manual mills in the picture, not sure what
other machinery they have.

They must have quite a bit more if they hired 35 people for the shop.
Subtract 5 admins, 5 salesmongrels, and 5 grunts, and you have as many
as 20 machinists working there.

One Atta Boy to KOMO for bringing work back home. Kudos, PMC!

--
Learning to ignore things is one of the great paths to inner peace.
-- Robert J. Sawyer

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 06:50:35 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 23:29:28 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

axolotl wrote:


http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...=2012303050059

I thought it might be of interest to some. Please don't use it as a
springboard to schoolyard political insults.

Kevin Gallimore
Interesting! Two manual mills in the picture, not sure what
other machinery they have.

They must have quite a bit more if they hired 35 people for the shop.
Subtract 5 admins, 5 salesmongrels, and 5 grunts, and you have as many
as 20 machinists working there.

One Atta Boy to KOMO for bringing work back home. Kudos, PMC!

They're right down the shore from me. Nice people. The machining
operation is small ("about 15% of total staff"), CNC and some manual
machines, the rest being assemblers, engineers, and technicians.

--
Ed Huntress

On 3/7/2012 12:29 AM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Donn wrote in message
...
On 3/6/2012 10:48 PM, Wild_Bill wrote:
I happen to believe that the writing is on the wall, and it should be
crystal clear by now.. but I also believe that almost no one learns
anything.

Any product that needs to be built right, can't/shouldn't/won't be built
in China.

[...]

You are deluding yourself. There is a continuum of quality, and sometimes
top of the line with finer tolerances isn't needed and isn't cost
effective. China is going to keep manufacturing a lot of things, and the
quality is only going to get better over time.

40 years ago, people were saying the same things about Japanese
manufacturing. My younger brother was a fairly typical gearhead mechanic
in those days, and they all referred to Japanese cars as "Jap crap." Look
where that attitude got the American car companies.

A couple of decades later it was the South Koreans. Their stuff was
called junk. Today, LG appliances, Samsung electronics, Hyundai cars and
several other products are world beaters.

If you think China is not going to continue to grow and improve at
manufacturing, you are delusional and probably a menace to the safety of
your family and colleagues.

You are a delusional fool.

Uh-huh - nice non-rebuttal, dummy.

On Mar 7, 3:29*am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:

If you think China is not going to continue to grow and improve at
manufacturing, you are delusional and probably a menace to the safety of
your family and colleagues.

You are a delusional fool.

You could provide some facts and rational for your statement.

Dan

"Donn Messenheimer" wrote in message
...
On 3/7/2012 12:29 AM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Donn wrote in message
...
On 3/6/2012 10:48 PM, Wild_Bill wrote:
I happen to believe that the writing is on the wall, and it should be
crystal clear by now.. but I also believe that almost no one learns
anything.

Any product that needs to be built right, can't/shouldn't/won't be
built
in China.

[...]

You are deluding yourself. There is a continuum of quality, and
sometimes
top of the line with finer tolerances isn't needed and isn't cost
effective. China is going to keep manufacturing a lot of things, and
the
quality is only going to get better over time.

40 years ago, people were saying the same things about Japanese
manufacturing. My younger brother was a fairly typical gearhead
mechanic
in those days, and they all referred to Japanese cars as "Jap crap."
Look
where that attitude got the American car companies.

A couple of decades later it was the South Koreans. Their stuff was
called junk. Today, LG appliances, Samsung electronics, Hyundai cars
and
several other products are world beaters.


World leading in sales volume perhaps--for the most part, still junk.

If you think China is not going to continue to grow and improve at
manufacturing, you are delusional and probably a menace to the safety of
your family and colleagues.

You are a delusional fool.

Uh-huh - nice non-rebuttal, dummy.

**** off, jack ass.

Obviously, you know very little about Chinese culture.

When and if outside firms begin an exodus away from China, the more likely
result will be a significant overall decline in Chinese manufacturing
prowess.

On 3/6/2012 6:11 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

And a whole lot less of the sports figures, hollywood celebrities and so forth that so many seem to instead hold in such high esteem these days.

Wish there was a 'Like' button for usenet posts...


Jon

wrote in message
...
On Mar 7, 3:29 am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:

You are a delusional fool.

You could provide some facts and rational for your statement.

And you could start jumping up and down and flapping your arms while
clucking like a chicken.

On 3/7/2012 8:48 AM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Donn wrote in message
...
On 3/7/2012 12:29 AM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Donn wrote in message
...
On 3/6/2012 10:48 PM, Wild_Bill wrote:
I happen to believe that the writing is on the wall, and it should be
crystal clear by now.. but I also believe that almost no one learns
anything.

Any product that needs to be built right, can't/shouldn't/won't be
built
in China.

[...]

You are deluding yourself. There is a continuum of quality, and
sometimes
top of the line with finer tolerances isn't needed and isn't cost
effective. China is going to keep manufacturing a lot of things, and
the
quality is only going to get better over time.

40 years ago, people were saying the same things about Japanese
manufacturing. My younger brother was a fairly typical gearhead
mechanic
in those days, and they all referred to Japanese cars as "Jap crap."
Look
where that attitude got the American car companies.

A couple of decades later it was the South Koreans. Their stuff was
called junk. Today, LG appliances, Samsung electronics, Hyundai cars
and
several other products are world beaters.


World leading in sales volume perhaps--for the most part, still junk.

Sorry, that's bull****. LG and Samsung absolutely are world quality
leaders in their markets. Hyundai is better than any American brand car
(I'm not talking about the Japanese cars engineered in Japan and built
in America), and they're close to the Japanese.

Your disdain for Chinese goods is largely based on chauvinism and
racism, the same as the disdain once felt for Japanese goods.


If you think China is not going to continue to grow and improve at
manufacturing, you are delusional and probably a menace to the safety of
your family and colleagues.

You are a delusional fool.

Uh-huh - nice non-rebuttal, dummy.

**** off, jack ass.

*You* **** off, you impotent little douche.


Obviously, you know very little about Chinese culture.

And you do? HA HA HA HA HA!



When and if outside firms begin an exodus away from China, the more likely
result will be a significant overall decline in Chinese manufacturing
prowess.

It's not going to happen.

On 3/7/2012 8:55 AM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mar 7, 3:29 am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:

You are a delusional fool.

You could provide some facts and rational for your statement.

And you could start jumping up and down and flapping your arms while
clucking like a chicken.

Ha ha ha ha ha! Your concession of impotence and stupidity is noted.

On 3/6/2012 11:07 PM, Donn Messenheimer wrote:

40 years ago, people were saying the same things about Japanese
manufacturing. My younger brother was a fairly typical gearhead mechanic
in those days, and they all referred to Japanese cars as "Jap crap."
Look where that attitude got the American car companies.

Yup. What I tell people that think China -can't- produce quality, is
they are only the third nation to put a man in space. Even though
they've been able to learn heaps from the USA and USSR on how to do it,
it still demands an exceptionally high degree of manufacturing and
quality control. Too many things to go wrong to pull that off with a bit
of 'Right Stuff' bravado.

They are making dirt cheap stuff because people are buying it...


Jon

"Donn Messenheimer" wrote in message ...
On 3/7/2012 8:48 AM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Donn wrote in message
...
On 3/7/2012 12:29 AM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Donn wrote in message
...
On 3/6/2012 10:48 PM, Wild_Bill wrote:
I happen to believe that the writing is on the wall, and it should be
crystal clear by now.. but I also believe that almost no one learns
anything.

Any product that needs to be built right, can't/shouldn't/won't be
built
in China.

[...]

You are deluding yourself. There is a continuum of quality, and
sometimes
top of the line with finer tolerances isn't needed and isn't cost
effective. China is going to keep manufacturing a lot of things, and
the
quality is only going to get better over time.

40 years ago, people were saying the same things about Japanese
manufacturing. My younger brother was a fairly typical gearhead
mechanic
in those days, and they all referred to Japanese cars as "Jap crap."
Look
where that attitude got the American car companies.

A couple of decades later it was the South Koreans. Their stuff was
called junk. Today, LG appliances, Samsung electronics, Hyundai cars
and
several other products are world beaters.


World leading in sales volume perhaps--for the most part, still junk.

Sorry, that's bull****. LG and Samsung absolutely are world quality
leaders in their markets. Hyundai is better than any American brand car
(I'm not talking about the Japanese cars engineered in Japan and built
in America), and they're close to the Japanese.

Your disdain for Chinese goods is largely based on chauvinism and
racism, the same as the disdain once felt for Japanese goods.


Nope, my disdain is based on my own personal experience using crappy Chinese goods and it's validated every time I go to the city dump and have a look at the kinds of items that are ending up in our overflowing landfills.


If you think China is not going to continue to grow and improve at
manufacturing, you are delusional and probably a menace to the safety of
your family and colleagues.

You are a delusional fool.

Uh-huh - nice non-rebuttal, dummy.

**** off, jack ass.

*You* **** off, you impotent little douche.


Neener neener neener......


Obviously, you know very little about Chinese culture.

And you do? HA HA HA HA HA!


Well, I happen to be a US manufacturer who has three distributers in China and they probably account for more sales volume than all of Europe combined.



When and if outside firms begin an exodus away from China, the more likely
result will be a significant overall decline in Chinese manufacturing
prowess.

It's not going to happen.

Missed the original article did you ?

--It's happening....right now, in fact....

"Donn Messenheimer" wrote in message ...
On 3/7/2012 8:55 AM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mar 7, 3:29 am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:

You are a delusional fool.

You could provide some facts and rational for your statement.

And you could start jumping up and down and flapping your arms while
clucking like a chicken.

Ha ha ha ha ha! Your concession of impotence and stupidity is noted.


No concession involved....

--it's just that I have better things to do than to argue with nut cases.

plonk

On 3/7/2012 9:44 AM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Donn wrote in message ...
On 3/7/2012 8:48 AM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Donn wrote in message
...
On 3/7/2012 12:29 AM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
"Donn wrote in message
...
On 3/6/2012 10:48 PM, Wild_Bill wrote:
I happen to believe that the writing is on the wall, and it should be
crystal clear by now.. but I also believe that almost no one learns
anything.

Any product that needs to be built right, can't/shouldn't/won't be
built
in China.

[...]

You are deluding yourself. There is a continuum of quality, and
sometimes
top of the line with finer tolerances isn't needed and isn't cost
effective. China is going to keep manufacturing a lot of things, and
the
quality is only going to get better over time.

40 years ago, people were saying the same things about Japanese
manufacturing. My younger brother was a fairly typical gearhead
mechanic
in those days, and they all referred to Japanese cars as "Jap crap."
Look
where that attitude got the American car companies.

A couple of decades later it was the South Koreans. Their stuff was
called junk. Today, LG appliances, Samsung electronics, Hyundai cars
and
several other products are world beaters.


World leading in sales volume perhaps--for the most part, still junk.

Sorry, that's bull****. LG and Samsung absolutely are world quality
leaders in their markets. Hyundai is better than any American brand car
(I'm not talking about the Japanese cars engineered in Japan and built
in America), and they're close to the Japanese.

Your disdain for Chinese goods is largely based on chauvinism and
racism, the same as the disdain once felt for Japanese goods.


Nope, my disdain is based on my own personal experience using crappy Chinese goods and it's validated every time I go to the city dump and have a look at the kinds of items that are ending up in our overflowing landfills.

You go to the "city dump" a lot, do you? I'm sorry, I don't believe you.




If you think China is not going to continue to grow and improve at
manufacturing, you are delusional and probably a menace to the safety of
your family and colleagues.

You are a delusional fool.

Uh-huh - nice non-rebuttal, dummy.

**** off, jack ass.

*You* **** off, you impotent little douche.


Neener neener neener......


Obviously, you know very little about Chinese culture.

And you do? HA HA HA HA HA!


Well, I happen to be a US manufacturer who has three distributers in China and they probably account for more sales volume than all of Europe combined.

That's lovely. I still doesn't make you an expert in Chinese culture.
I suspect your consumption of egg flower soup and cashew chicken is
about as much exposure to Chinese culture as you've had in your entire life.





When and if outside firms begin an exodus away from China, the more likely
result will be a significant overall decline in Chinese manufacturing
prowess.

It's not going to happen.

Missed the original article did you ?

--It's happening....right now, in fact....

I read the article. It's an anecdote. It may - *may* - be describing a
small trickle of on-shoring; it's not a flood, and it's unlikely to
become one.

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Mar 7, 3:29 am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:

You are a delusional fool.

You could provide some facts and rational for your statement.

And you could start jumping up and down and flapping your arms while
clucking like a chicken.

I think he is leaving that to you.

You seem to be doing a good job at it..... so carry on.
jk

"jk" wrote in message ...
"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote:

wrote in message
....
On Mar 7, 3:29 am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:

You are a delusional fool.

You could provide some facts and rational for your statement.

And you could start jumping up and down and flapping your arms while
clucking like a chicken.

I think he is leaving that to you.

You seem to be doing a good job at it..... so carry on.
jk

Bite me, ****ing troll...

plonk

On 3/7/2012 11:32 AM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

wrote in message ...
"PrecisionmachinisT"precisionmachinist123@notmail .com wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Mar 7, 3:29 am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:

You are a delusional fool.

You could provide some facts and rational for your statement.

And you could start jumping up and down and flapping your arms while
clucking like a chicken.

I think he is leaving that to you.

You seem to be doing a good job at it..... so carry on.
jk

Bite me, ****ing troll...

plonk

When people announce killfiling, they're waving a white flag.

"George Plimpton" wrote in message ...
On 3/7/2012 11:32 AM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

wrote in message ...
"PrecisionmachinisT"precisionmachinist123@notmail .com wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Mar 7, 3:29 am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:

You are a delusional fool.

You could provide some facts and rational for your statement.

And you could start jumping up and down and flapping your arms while
clucking like a chicken.

I think he is leaving that to you.

You seem to be doing a good job at it..... so carry on.
jk

Bite me, ****ing troll...

plonk

When people announce killfiling, they're waving a white flag.

Bull****.

When I announce that I've killfiled someone it's to let them know that I'm not going to allow them access to any more of my time.

And if you're going to start into jerking me around over this well then there's a pretty good possibility that you'll be joining him really soon.

Actually, **** it...I've heard quite enough of your crap already as it is...

plonk

--

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message ...
On 3/6/2012 11:07 PM, Donn Messenheimer wrote:

40 years ago, people were saying the same things about Japanese
manufacturing. My younger brother was a fairly typical gearhead mechanic
in those days, and they all referred to Japanese cars as "Jap crap."
Look where that attitude got the American car companies.

Yup. What I tell people that think China -can't- produce quality, is
they are only the third nation to put a man in space. Even though
they've been able to learn heaps from the USA and USSR on how to do it,
it still demands an exceptionally high degree of manufacturing and
quality control. Too many things to go wrong to pull that off with a bit
of 'Right Stuff' bravado.


The Chinese military industrial sector is probably more of an anomaly, than it is an accurate reflection of the China's overall average mainstream manufacturing prowess.

They are making dirt cheap stuff because people are buying it...

And because a relatively small number of Chinese nationals are getting themselves filthy rich by paying their workers at near-poverty wages--very similar to the situation that exists here in the USA

On Mar 7, 11:55*am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


You could provide some facts and rational for your statement.

And you could start jumping up and down and flapping your arms while
clucking like a chicken.

If you provide no facts or rational then it seems like your statement
is just something you want to believe in.

Your idea of a good response is the bit about a chicken?

Dan

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote:
"jk" wrote in message ...
"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mar 7, 3:29 am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:
You are a delusional fool.
You could provide some facts and rational for your statement.
And you could start jumping up and down and flapping your arms while
clucking like a chicken.
I think he is leaving that to you.
You seem to be doing a good job at it..... so carry on.
jk
Bite me, ****ing troll...
plonk

Wow plonked in one, my response must have really hit a nerve.
To me a "plonk" is the exact sound of a drop, being drippy.
jk

On 2012-03-07, Wild_Bill wrote:
I happen to believe that the writing is on the wall, and it should be
crystal clear by now.. but I also believe that almost no one learns
anything.

Any product that needs to be built right, can't/shouldn't/won't be built in
China.

As far as I know, the Chinese are perfectly capable of making good
products, or shoddy products, depending on what they are asked to do.
Very often they asked to make shoddy products.

I mean, with CNC equipment and generally modern production methods,
there is no problem in making products made to the exact spec,
consistently. If I program my machine to make a 0.237" flat and a 7mm
keyway, turn the part 31.92 degrees and do the same thing again, the
machine will do exactly that, regardless of where it is located, China
or the US.

In China, though, I can dump used coolant near my front door, treat my
employees like ****, and cheat on trademarks, something that is not
possible here.

i

Your points regarding CNC manufacturing seem reasonable, but that's where
many folks are mistaken about consistency in manufacturing when current
technology is involved.
Yes, you can make a few parts accurately at your leisure, but if
feeding/housing your family depended upon you producing those parts at a
rate of 100 per hour, the picture may change.
China produces products by tonnage, not quality standards.

Epiphone guitars was an example that I mentioned earlier, and the blatently
obvious cosmetic and numerous other quality issues are being "passed" as far
as quality inspections go.

For the most part, people still do parts setups, programming and maintenance
on CNC equipment, and those areas present opportunities for inconsistent
hole locations, routing paths, sloppy fitting parts etc.

Explain the commonly experienced problem of internal threads being
oversize.. or not perpendicular to a flat surface, etc, etc.
I get it.. But those parts aren't being scrapped, instead they end up on
retail shelves every day.

Choices are made to maintain or increase production numbers, and possibly
often without the consent of the company located thousands of miles away.

Operating a large corporation by remote control is a crap shoot, and I think
most manufacturers having products made in China are beginning to realize
this.
Now they're faced with the massive investments made to move production to
China turning out to be total losses.. obviously some corporate leaders are
not willing to accept that the whole "double your money by moving production
to China" idea was an idiotic concept/decision/gamble.

So, now they're at a position of running a well-known brand name into the
ground for the last cent they can get (crash and burn), or if they have any
intentions of restoring the quality of their products and seeing continued
growth, they'll need to throw away the "excuse manual", and relocate
manufacturing elsewhere.

It's commonly stated that this learning to crawl before learning to walk
scenario has been witnessed before.
There is little in comon with post-war Japan's "imagined" gradual
improvements in manufacturing quality (which you may not be familiar with
because you didn't grow up here in the US).. and what's taking place in
China today.

Deluded folks were saying 10-15 years ago that China's product quallity will
improve just like Japan's did.. bull****.
There is essentially no comparison, since 50 years ago the overall quality
of most goods was much higher than in recent years.
We've been accepting the throw-away goods based class of consumerism for a
couple of generations now, in the race to the bottom of quality, But low
prices.

I don't see a problem with China (India, other) producing goods for
Wham-mart and dollar stores.. and that's exactly what was done initially
with toys and low quality goods from Japan in the 50s and 60s.
But relying on China's ability to improvise their cunning methods of making
a product cheaper has proven to destroy the minimally acceptable
expectations of quality.

Consumers are slow to catch on, mostly oblivious and blinded by cheap
prices.

Corporate execs and managers can see the writing on the wall if they aren't
in denial.. when profits drop due to a 20+% product return rate of buyers
returning defective products/lost sales, unacceptable ratio of
marketing/advertising expenses to sales profits, etc.. they will feel the
pressure to make changes in previous decisions which led them to the place
they are today/tomorrow.. or they might just get replaced with another
like-minded doofus who continues to make the same mistakes which end up
killing the company.

Trouble is, then we have job losses here in the US and elsewhere.. but not
in China where they shift production to a counterfeit product or some other
POS, which can take place, essentially overnight.
Not only corporate job losses, but in retail store jobs, truck drivers, on
n'on down the chain.

That wasn't a potential problem in the 1950s with post-war Japan products.
For one reason, because companies like RCA Victor still had a full product
line of other domestically-produced goods, and the products made under
license from RCA in Japan, were merely supplemental products in their
overall number of goods.

I think that Japan's growth and reconstruction were being aided by numerous
foreign entities, but largely by American assistance.. not corporate welfare
as it's done today with a few execs getting multi-million bonuses (or the
Marcos in the Phillipines), but trade agreements that led to substantial
growth in production and technological advancements.
It didn't take Japan 50 years to reach world-class quality levels, instead,
it took the rest of the world a long time to accept that Japanese quality
matched and exceeded any precision product from Germany, Switzerland, USA
etc.

Almost no one learns anything.. oh, I already said that.

You can bet that these factors aren't being taught to the twenty-x year old
MBAs and future corporate leaders.

I have some early products of Japan made for export, and the consistent
quality is obvious, manufactured on manual machines, made to accurate
precision tolerances.
It seems that if there were defective or low quality parts made, which
didn't meet acceptable quality, they were probably scrapped.. not packaged
and packed into a shipping container headed to the USA.

It's not my belief that China can't make quality goods (CPUs aren't a
trivial product), and I haven't said that.. not even in years past.

My metalworking machines being the major exception, I typically don't buy
products that need to be repaired, but with my machines, I didn't have
unrealistic expectations of what I was getting for the price.
My new 9x20 lathe was $600 delivered.

I'm not willing to buy a $600 product that fails within weeks or months and
can't be repaired because sophisticated replacement parts aren't available
or the fabrication techniques can't be duplicated manually (massive ICs
requiring specialized equipment to replace them, components bonded to a
large circuit board with epoxy).

So, my equpiment purchases are often made from the trailing edge of
technology.. stuff that can still be repaired even if I have to make a new
part on my machines.

I'm not particularly cheap or poor, but there's a limit to how much I'll pay
for present day throw-away technology.

I'll leave the spreading landfill aspect rest, but the issue of scrap
cardboard is an export commodity now, speaks volumes.

--
WB
..........


"Ignoramus2617" wrote in message
...
On 2012-03-07, Wild_Bill wrote:
I happen to believe that the writing is on the wall, and it should be
crystal clear by now.. but I also believe that almost no one learns
anything.

Any product that needs to be built right, can't/shouldn't/won't be built
in
China.

As far as I know, the Chinese are perfectly capable of making good
products, or shoddy products, depending on what they are asked to do.
Very often they asked to make shoddy products.

I mean, with CNC equipment and generally modern production methods,
there is no problem in making products made to the exact spec,
consistently. If I program my machine to make a 0.237" flat and a 7mm
keyway, turn the part 31.92 degrees and do the same thing again, the
machine will do exactly that, regardless of where it is located, China
or the US.

In China, though, I can dump used coolant near my front door, treat my
employees like ****, and cheat on trademarks, something that is not
possible here.

i