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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Ping RCM structural engineers...
Attention all bored structural engineers, I need assistance assessing the viability, and if viable refining the design of some heavy lift apparatus. I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#) ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be able to break down into components that are not more than about 150# each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. The lift unit can not get in the way of the lower corner points of the container so that it can be raised/lowered from a normal chassis with corner locks. I've worked up a rough concept that looks like it could meet these criteria: http://wpnet.us/container_lift.jpg Essentially is it two lift leg left/right pairs that attach to the top lift points on the container, and rest with an angle plate at the corners of the container perhaps a foot up from the bottom. The angle plates have tabs on them that connect to shackles and chain assemblies which use turnbuckle type load binders to pull the angle plates solidly against the container frame. The legs are set at a small angle (5 deg or less), to provide clearance for the trailer to be backed underneath. The chains and binders fit in the under 150# criteria. The lift legs should meet the weight criteria when disassembled into the outer tube, inner tube and hydraulic cylinder components, so that those components can be assembled while horizontal on the ground and then the unit raised into place using a ratchet chain hoist or similar. I own a 40' container and several friends of mine also own similar containers. Moving these containers typically requires an expensive crane and/or an expensive "Landol" style tilt bed trailer. With a lift system like this the savings in being able to readily load/unload from an ordinary flatbed trailer or container chassis would add up pretty quickly. Thoughts, comments, suggestions? Thanks, Pete C. |
#2
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Ping RCM structural engineers...
On Jun 23, 2:24*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
... I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#) ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be able to break down into components that are not more than about 150# each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. ... * * * * Pete C. For a quick practicality check I looked for 150# hydraulic cylinders that can lift half the weight 48", IOW when you raise or lower them individually: http://www.baileynet.com/ You would need separate bracing to control lateral motion. I think the column load rating assumes that the ends are free to pivot, so they don't add a sideways bending load to the rod or the seal gland. jsw |
#3
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Ping RCM structural engineers...
On Jun 23, 2:24*pm, "Pete C." wrote: ... I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#) ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be able to break down into components that are not more than about 150# each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. ... * * * * Pete C. That is an incredibly tall specification order you are trying to fill there. You want 150 lb. components that one person can put together in an hour? And that can hoist 30 tons? Generally, those Conex boxes are handled by really HUGE overhead trolley cranes at the dock side. I'd say you could build a permanent in place rig to handle a load like that, but I seriously doubt you can build one that tears up and down in an hour that can handle that load. And I wouldn't trust it period. One broken bolt, pin, etc., and kaboom. That said, you may want some type of scissors jack apparatus that lifts the box by attaching to its top and that has hydraulic cylinders manipulating the scissors. How that will break down into 150 lb parts is unknown. Or a block and tackle type device that attaches to the box top. Once again, how that will break down into 150 lb parts is unknown. Dave |
#4
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Ping RCM structural engineers...
On Jun 24, 3:37*am, wrote:
On Jun 23, 2:24*pm, "Pete C." wrote: ... I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#) ... That is an incredibly tall specification order you are trying to fill there. You want 150 lb. components that one person can put together in an hour? And that can hoist 30 tons? ... Or a block and tackle type device that attaches to the box top. Once again, how that will break down into 150 lb parts is unknown. Dave The biggest hoist I've built weighs about 150# total, 4x 35#, and lifts 6k#. And it takes an hour to set up. jsw |
#5
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Ping RCM structural engineers...
On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 04:18:22 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
The biggest hoist I've built weighs about 150# total, 4x 35#, and lifts 6k#. And it takes an hour to set up. jsw Although it's not for a cargo container, how about posting pix somewhere. RWL |
#6
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Ping RCM structural engineers...
On Jun 24, 10:09*pm, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane at PTD dot NET
wrote: On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 04:18:22 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins The biggest hoist I've built weighs about 150# total, 4x 35#, and lifts 6k#. And it takes an hour to set up. jsw Although it's not for a cargo container, how about posting pix somewhere. RWL It's a larger version of this: https://picasaweb.google.com/KB1DAL/...88505171720306 with a chain fall instead of the lever hoist. A friend gave me the pipe tripod when he moved to the city. 6k# is an untested estimate, I don't remember lifting over 3500. Two of the pipes can be up as shear legs, to lift loads off the ground and move them sideways onto a truck bed or my sawmill. I turned ball joints for the base from a dumbbell. The socket is a glued stack of plywood. Here it is, cleaning up after a little accident: https://picasaweb.google.com/KB1DAL/...60810975036994 jsw |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Ping RCM structural engineers...
On Jun 23, 1:24*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Attention all bored structural engineers, I need assistance assessing the viability, and if viable refining the design of some heavy lift apparatus. I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#) ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be able to break down into components that are not more than about 150# each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. The lift unit can not get in the way of the lower corner points of the container so that it can be raised/lowered from a normal chassis with corner locks. I've worked up a rough concept that looks like it could meet these criteria: http://wpnet.us/container_lift.jpg Essentially is it two lift leg left/right pairs that attach to the top lift points on the container, and rest with an angle plate at the corners of the container perhaps a foot up from the bottom. The angle plates have tabs on them that connect to shackles and chain assemblies which use turnbuckle type load binders to pull the angle plates solidly against the container frame. The legs are set at a small angle (5 deg or less), to provide clearance for the trailer to be backed underneath. The chains and binders fit in the under 150# criteria. The lift legs should meet the weight criteria when disassembled into the outer tube, inner tube and hydraulic cylinder components, so that those components can be assembled while horizontal on the ground and then the unit raised into place using a ratchet chain hoist or similar. I own a 40' container and several friends of mine also own similar containers. Moving these containers typically requires an expensive crane and/or an expensive "Landol" style tilt bed trailer. With a lift system like this the savings in being able to readily load/unload from an ordinary flatbed trailer or container chassis would add up pretty quickly. Thoughts, comments, suggestions? Thanks, * * * * Pete C. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyKDDR9dd6k |
#8
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Ping RCM structural engineers...
On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 07:20:59 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote: On Jun 24, 10:09*pm, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane at PTD dot NET wrote: On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 04:18:22 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins The biggest hoist I've built weighs about 150# total, 4x 35#, and lifts 6k#. And it takes an hour to set up. jsw Although it's not for a cargo container, how about posting pix somewhere. RWL It's a larger version of this: https://picasaweb.google.com/KB1DAL/...88505171720306 with a chain fall instead of the lever hoist. A friend gave me the pipe tripod when he moved to the city. 6k# is an untested estimate, I don't remember lifting over 3500. Two of the pipes can be up as shear legs, to lift loads off the ground and move them sideways onto a truck bed or my sawmill. I turned ball joints for the base from a dumbbell. The socket is a glued stack of plywood. Here it is, cleaning up after a little accident: https://picasaweb.google.com/KB1DAL/...60810975036994 jsw Thanks Jim. I remember you showing that photo once before after I saw it. What length pipes are those and what is the wall thickness? I did't understand this part of what you did: I turned ball joints for the base from a dumbbell. The socket is a glued stack of plywood. Any more photos of the ball joint you're talking about or the junction of the pipes at the top? RWL |
#9
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Ping RCM structural engineers...
On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 13:41:50 -0700, Denis G. wrote:
On Jun 23, 1:24Â*pm, "Pete C." wrote: [...] I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#) ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be able to break down into components that are not more than about 150# each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. The lift unit can not get in the way of the lower corner points of the container so that it can be raised/lowered from a normal chassis with corner locks. I've worked up a rough concept that looks like it could meet these criteria: [...] http://wpnet.us/container_lift.jpg [snip concept description] I own a 40' container and several friends of mine also own similar containers. Moving these containers typically requires an expensive crane and/or an expensive "Landol" style tilt bed trailer. With a lift system like this the savings in being able to readily load/unload from an ordinary flatbed trailer or container chassis would add up pretty quickly. .... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyKDDR9dd6k Per http://www.ascom-italy.it/products-file.php?idc=13&idp=17 etc, that ATS 200 has 7 times the necessary capacity. A much-smaller BHT 40 would be big enough for 30 tons, but still weighs a bunch of tons and isn't composed of 150# pieces that can be assembled in under an hour. Nowhere close to Pete's specs. I think the under-150#-per-piece spec is unrealistic. Instead allow up to say 500# each, building parts on small wagons or trailers like items #90153 plus #37510 at http://www.harborfreight.com/, with some of them having stabilizer support legs that swing out and pin in place. Two parts would be left and right sides of a lift frame, to lift one end of the container. Other parts would be sets of rollers with stands. With one end of container lifted, insert a roller set under the end, then adjust and brace the legs of the stand. Put the transport trailer near the stand and attach winch between trailer front and container. Remove lift frame, then winch container onto trailer, or possibly move lift frame to other end of container and put another roller set or two under container before winching it aboard. -- jiw |
#10
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Ping RCM structural engineers...
James Waldby wrote: On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 13:41:50 -0700, Denis G. wrote: On Jun 23, 1:24Â pm, "Pete C." wrote: [...] I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#) ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be able to break down into components that are not more than about 150# each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. The lift unit can not get in the way of the lower corner points of the container so that it can be raised/lowered from a normal chassis with corner locks. I've worked up a rough concept that looks like it could meet these criteria: [...] http://wpnet.us/container_lift.jpg [snip concept description] I own a 40' container and several friends of mine also own similar containers. Moving these containers typically requires an expensive crane and/or an expensive "Landol" style tilt bed trailer. With a lift system like this the savings in being able to readily load/unload from an ordinary flatbed trailer or container chassis would add up pretty quickly. ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyKDDR9dd6k Per http://www.ascom-italy.it/products-file.php?idc=13&idp=17 etc, that ATS 200 has 7 times the necessary capacity. A much-smaller BHT 40 would be big enough for 30 tons, but still weighs a bunch of tons and isn't composed of 150# pieces that can be assembled in under an hour. Nowhere close to Pete's specs. That is a completely different design. Note that is a fully mobile gantry crane, while my design is four lift legs that attach to the container and rely on the container for most of the structure. There are no cross pieces on the top in my design nor any lower horizontal members other than the chain binders. My design does not move other than vertically either, so it doesn't need the extra strength that a traveling gantry does. I expect since a two point support condition (diagonal ends) would be likely at points during a lift, that each leg needs to be built to handle a 30k# load plus margin. Given that there are plenty of log splitters with twice the capacity that are not overly massive it seems a 30K# capacity per leg is not unrealistic. Since the leg is composed of three main sections - inner tube, outer tube and hydraulic cylinder - which connect via the cross pins for the cylinder, disassembling those three sections should be pretty easy. Each section shouldn't weigh much more than the 150# goal, perhaps 200# at most. For assembly, I expect to have a small lift frame that will temporarily attach at the top of the container to provide an upper attachment point for a ratchet type hoist to lift the assembled 500-600# leg into position where it can be attached to the containers top corner lift point. Once attached at that point, gravity will hold the leg in position while the others are attached and while the chain binders are attached for the lower support. Disassembly will be the opposite sequence. A 4" bore hydraulic cylinder running at 2,500+ PSI will provide the 30k# lift capacity. That cylinder should be able to fit into a leg assembly composed of something like 6" and 7" square tube of reasonable wall thickness. That size tube would appear to be sufficiently strong for the limited side loads involved. Remember, the trainer is moved under the container, the container doesn't move horizontally. This is the same concept as truck campers which routinely lift 4,000# campers with a set of 2,000# capacity jacks. I think the under-150#-per-piece spec is unrealistic. It is for a traveling gantry crane, but that's not what I'm trying to build. Instead allow up to say 500# each, building parts on small wagons or trailers like items #90153 plus #37510 at http://www.harborfreight.com/, with some of them having stabilizer support legs that swing out and pin in place. Two parts would be left and right sides of a lift frame, to lift one end of the container. Again, in my design there is no lift frame, only four discrete lift legs which rely on the existing lift frame which is integral to the container. Each lift leg breaks down into three components for transport. Other parts would be sets of rollers with stands. With one end of container lifted, insert a roller set under the end, then adjust and brace the legs of the stand. Put the transport trailer near the stand and attach winch between trailer front and container. Remove lift frame, then winch container onto trailer, or possibly move lift frame to other end of container and put another roller set or two under container before winching it aboard. Nope, the idea is to simply lift the container 5' vertical, back the trailer under it into position then lower the container to rest on the trailer just like a big truck camper. The only horizontal movement is the trailer backing under the raised container. |
#11
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Ping RCM structural engineers...
I think it's a Good Idea. I can see where you'd be all keen to do it G.
I think (no professional basis here) that the critical issue is rack prevention. For your 4' lift I would try to leave 4' of leg in the tube. Just seems right. Also, the lower point of attachment to the container is vital for rack prevention. Instead of a foot up from the bottom, I think attached to the bottom would be way better. If it starts to rack, it could run away and be REALLY exciting. I think that the 5 degree inclination could be a problem. I figure that after being extended 4', the legs want to be 8" further apart. How are you going to handle that? As far as backing a trailer under it: how wide is the trailer compared to the container? How much margin? Good luck, Bob |
#12
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Ping RCM structural engineers...
Bob Engelhardt wrote: I think it's a Good Idea. I can see where you'd be all keen to do it G. I think (no professional basis here) that the critical issue is rack prevention. For your 4' lift I would try to leave 4' of leg in the tube. Just seems right. A standard container is 8'6" high, a high cube is 9'6". Since the lift leg attaches at the top, that makes it 8'6" long, which given a 5' lift stroke leaves about 3' overlap which should be enough given the size of the tube. Also, the lower point of attachment to the container is vital for rack prevention. Instead of a foot up from the bottom, I think attached to the bottom would be way better. If it starts to rack, it could run away and be REALLY exciting. It can't be at the bottom since that would interfere with the lower attachment points to connect on a container chassis. Any racking forces really end up applied to the container frame via those angle plates near the bottom, rather than pulling out since pulling out forces on one leg inherently translate into pushing in forces on the opposite leg. Recall that the container frame is not only strong enough to handle top lifting the loaded container, it can also handle 5 or 6 loaded containers stacked on top (over 400,000#). They really are incredibly strong. I think that the 5 degree inclination could be a problem. I figure that after being extended 4', the legs want to be 8" further apart. How are you going to handle that? I don't see it as a problem. I've seen plenty of lift trucks and cranes that have their outriggers set at more significant angles and the feet slide just fine as they spread. As far as backing a trailer under it: how wide is the trailer compared to the container? How much margin? 8' wide container, 8' wide trailer or container chassis. With the leg spread, I'd expect to have 6" of clearance at each side. A truck camper being loaded on a dually truck usually has about 3" clearance per side. |
#13
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Ping RCM structural engineers...
Pete C. wrote:
Attention all bored structural engineers, I need assistance assessing the viability, and if viable refining the design of some heavy lift apparatus. I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#) ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be able to break down into components that are not more than about 150# each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. The lift unit can not get in the way of the lower corner points of the container so that it can be raised/lowered from a normal chassis with corner locks. I've worked up a rough concept that looks like it could meet these criteria: http://wpnet.us/container_lift.jpg Essentially is it two lift leg left/right pairs that attach to the top lift points on the container, and rest with an angle plate at the corners of the container perhaps a foot up from the bottom. The angle plates have tabs on them that connect to shackles and chain assemblies which use turnbuckle type load binders to pull the angle plates solidly against the container frame. The legs are set at a small angle (5 deg or less), to provide clearance for the trailer to be backed underneath. The chains and binders fit in the under 150# criteria. The lift legs should meet the weight criteria when disassembled into the outer tube, inner tube and hydraulic cylinder components, so that those components can be assembled while horizontal on the ground and then the unit raised into place using a ratchet chain hoist or similar. I own a 40' container and several friends of mine also own similar containers. Moving these containers typically requires an expensive crane and/or an expensive "Landol" style tilt bed trailer. With a lift system like this the savings in being able to readily load/unload from an ordinary flatbed trailer or container chassis would add up pretty quickly. Thoughts, comments, suggestions? Thanks, Pete C. I move a lot of heavy equipment and before I bought my own crane I would get the local wrecker recovery unit to load and unload equipment. They would charge me about 120 an hour and if everything is set up the total bill was always less than 300 bucks. The most of the recovery wreckers can lift over 40 tons and they have two cables which makes it easier leveling an uneven load. John |
#14
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Ping RCM structural engineers...
john wrote: Pete C. wrote: Attention all bored structural engineers, I need assistance assessing the viability, and if viable refining the design of some heavy lift apparatus. I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#) ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be able to break down into components that are not more than about 150# each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. The lift unit can not get in the way of the lower corner points of the container so that it can be raised/lowered from a normal chassis with corner locks. I've worked up a rough concept that looks like it could meet these criteria: http://wpnet.us/container_lift.jpg Essentially is it two lift leg left/right pairs that attach to the top lift points on the container, and rest with an angle plate at the corners of the container perhaps a foot up from the bottom. The angle plates have tabs on them that connect to shackles and chain assemblies which use turnbuckle type load binders to pull the angle plates solidly against the container frame. The legs are set at a small angle (5 deg or less), to provide clearance for the trailer to be backed underneath. The chains and binders fit in the under 150# criteria. The lift legs should meet the weight criteria when disassembled into the outer tube, inner tube and hydraulic cylinder components, so that those components can be assembled while horizontal on the ground and then the unit raised into place using a ratchet chain hoist or similar. I own a 40' container and several friends of mine also own similar containers. Moving these containers typically requires an expensive crane and/or an expensive "Landol" style tilt bed trailer. With a lift system like this the savings in being able to readily load/unload from an ordinary flatbed trailer or container chassis would add up pretty quickly. Thoughts, comments, suggestions? Thanks, Pete C. I move a lot of heavy equipment and before I bought my own crane I would get the local wrecker recovery unit to load and unload equipment. They would charge me about 120 an hour and if everything is set up the total bill was always less than 300 bucks. The most of the recovery wreckers can lift over 40 tons and they have two cables which makes it easier leveling an uneven load. John Clearance issues. In many cases there is no room around the container for anything but the trailer, i.e. no room for a crane, wrecker or anything else along side the container, overhead obstructions for cranes, etc. The idea here is to provide a relatively simple way to elevate the container so a trailer can be backed under without requiring heavy equipment and clearance around the container. The only standard equipment that can do this is the Landoll style tilt bed trailers and they are big $$$. A used container chassis is quite inexpensive, so a lift setup like this could pay for itself in short order. |
#15
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Ping RCM structural engineers...
On Jun 24, 2:37*am, wrote:
On Jun 23, 2:24 pm, "Pete C." wrote: ... I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#) ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be able to break down into components that are not more than about 150# each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. ... Pete C. That is an incredibly tall specification order you are trying to fill there. You want 150 lb. components that one person can put together in an hour? And that can hoist 30 tons? Generally, those Conex boxes are handled by really HUGE overhead trolley cranes at the dock side. I'd say you could build a permanent in place rig to handle a load like that, but I seriously doubt you can build one that tears up and down in an hour that can handle that load. And I wouldn't trust it period. One broken bolt, pin, etc., and kaboom. That said, you may want some type of scissors jack apparatus that lifts the box by attaching to its top and that has hydraulic cylinders manipulating the scissors. How that will break down into 150 lb parts is unknown. Or a block and tackle type device that attaches to the box top. Once again, how that will break down into 150 lb parts is unknown. Dave I'll bet that someone who was a Seabee (not me) could do it. |
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