Ping RCM structural engineers...
 

Attention all bored structural engineers, I need assistance assessing
the viability, and if viable refining the design of some heavy lift
apparatus.

I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#)
ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container
chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for
loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded
and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be
able to break down into components that are not more than about 150#
each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a
reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. The lift unit can not get in the way
of the lower corner points of the container so that it can be
raised/lowered from a normal chassis with corner locks.

I've worked up a rough concept that looks like it could meet these
criteria:

http://wpnet.us/container_lift.jpg

Essentially is it two lift leg left/right pairs that attach to the top
lift points on the container, and rest with an angle plate at the
corners of the container perhaps a foot up from the bottom. The angle
plates have tabs on them that connect to shackles and chain assemblies
which use turnbuckle type load binders to pull the angle plates solidly
against the container frame. The legs are set at a small angle (5 deg or
less), to provide clearance for the trailer to be backed underneath.

The chains and binders fit in the under 150# criteria. The lift legs
should meet the weight criteria when disassembled into the outer tube,
inner tube and hydraulic cylinder components, so that those components
can be assembled while horizontal on the ground and then the unit raised
into place using a ratchet chain hoist or similar.

I own a 40' container and several friends of mine also own similar
containers. Moving these containers typically requires an expensive
crane and/or an expensive "Landol" style tilt bed trailer. With a lift
system like this the savings in being able to readily load/unload from
an ordinary flatbed trailer or container chassis would add up pretty
quickly.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

Thanks,

Pete C.

Ping RCM structural engineers...
 

On Jun 23, 2:24*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
...
I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#)
ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container
chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for
loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded
and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be
able to break down into components that are not more than about 150#
each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a
reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. ...

* * * * Pete C.

For a quick practicality check I looked for 150# hydraulic cylinders
that can lift half the weight 48", IOW when you raise or lower them
individually:
http://www.baileynet.com/
You would need separate bracing to control lateral motion. I think the
column load rating assumes that the ends are free to pivot, so they
don't add a sideways bending load to the rod or the seal gland.

jsw

Ping RCM structural engineers...
 

On Jun 23, 2:24*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
...
I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#)
ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container
chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for
loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded
and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be
able to break down into components that are not more than about 150#
each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a
reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. ...

* * * * Pete C.

That is an incredibly tall specification order you are trying to fill
there. You want 150 lb. components that one person can put together in
an hour? And that can hoist 30 tons?

Generally, those Conex boxes are handled by really HUGE overhead
trolley cranes at the dock side.

I'd say you could build a permanent in place rig to handle a load like
that, but I seriously doubt you can build one that tears up and down
in an hour that can handle that load. And I wouldn't trust it period.
One broken bolt, pin, etc., and kaboom.

That said, you may want some type of scissors jack apparatus that
lifts the box by attaching to its top and that has hydraulic cylinders
manipulating the scissors.

How that will break down into 150 lb parts is unknown.

Or a block and tackle type device that attaches to the box top.

Once again, how that will break down into 150 lb parts is unknown.
Dave

Ping RCM structural engineers...
 

On Jun 24, 3:37*am, wrote:
On Jun 23, 2:24*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
...
I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#)
...
That is an incredibly tall specification order you are trying to fill
there. You want 150 lb. components that one person can put together in
an hour? And that can hoist 30 tons?
...
Or a block and tackle type device that attaches to the box top.

Once again, how that will break down into 150 lb parts is unknown.
Dave

The biggest hoist I've built weighs about 150# total, 4x 35#, and
lifts 6k#. And it takes an hour to set up.

jsw

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On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 04:18:22 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins

The biggest hoist I've built weighs about 150# total, 4x 35#, and
lifts 6k#. And it takes an hour to set up.

jsw

Although it's not for a cargo container, how about posting pix
somewhere.

RWL

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On Jun 24, 10:09*pm, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane at PTD dot NET
wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 04:18:22 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins

The biggest hoist I've built weighs about 150# total, 4x 35#, and
lifts 6k#. And it takes an hour to set up.
jsw

Although it's not for a cargo container, how about posting pix
somewhere.
RWL

It's a larger version of this:
https://picasaweb.google.com/KB1DAL/...88505171720306
with a chain fall instead of the lever hoist.

A friend gave me the pipe tripod when he moved to the city. 6k# is an
untested estimate, I don't remember lifting over 3500.

Two of the pipes can be up as shear legs, to lift loads off the ground
and move them sideways onto a truck bed or my sawmill. I turned ball
joints for the base from a dumbbell. The socket is a glued stack of
plywood.

Here it is, cleaning up after a little accident:
https://picasaweb.google.com/KB1DAL/...60810975036994

jsw

Ping RCM structural engineers...
 

On Jun 23, 1:24*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Attention all bored structural engineers, I need assistance assessing
the viability, and if viable refining the design of some heavy lift
apparatus.

I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#)
ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container
chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for
loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded
and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be
able to break down into components that are not more than about 150#
each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a
reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. The lift unit can not get in the way
of the lower corner points of the container so that it can be
raised/lowered from a normal chassis with corner locks.

I've worked up a rough concept that looks like it could meet these
criteria:

http://wpnet.us/container_lift.jpg

Essentially is it two lift leg left/right pairs that attach to the top
lift points on the container, and rest with an angle plate at the
corners of the container perhaps a foot up from the bottom. The angle
plates have tabs on them that connect to shackles and chain assemblies
which use turnbuckle type load binders to pull the angle plates solidly
against the container frame. The legs are set at a small angle (5 deg or
less), to provide clearance for the trailer to be backed underneath.

The chains and binders fit in the under 150# criteria. The lift legs
should meet the weight criteria when disassembled into the outer tube,
inner tube and hydraulic cylinder components, so that those components
can be assembled while horizontal on the ground and then the unit raised
into place using a ratchet chain hoist or similar.

I own a 40' container and several friends of mine also own similar
containers. Moving these containers typically requires an expensive
crane and/or an expensive "Landol" style tilt bed trailer. With a lift
system like this the savings in being able to readily load/unload from
an ordinary flatbed trailer or container chassis would add up pretty
quickly.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

Thanks,

* * * * Pete C.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyKDDR9dd6k

Ping RCM structural engineers...
 

On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 07:20:59 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Jun 24, 10:09*pm, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane at PTD dot NET
wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 04:18:22 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins

The biggest hoist I've built weighs about 150# total, 4x 35#, and
lifts 6k#. And it takes an hour to set up.
jsw

Although it's not for a cargo container, how about posting pix
somewhere.
RWL

It's a larger version of this:
https://picasaweb.google.com/KB1DAL/...88505171720306
with a chain fall instead of the lever hoist.

A friend gave me the pipe tripod when he moved to the city. 6k# is an
untested estimate, I don't remember lifting over 3500.

Two of the pipes can be up as shear legs, to lift loads off the ground
and move them sideways onto a truck bed or my sawmill. I turned ball
joints for the base from a dumbbell. The socket is a glued stack of
plywood.

Here it is, cleaning up after a little accident:
https://picasaweb.google.com/KB1DAL/...60810975036994

jsw

Thanks Jim. I remember you showing that photo once before after I saw
it. What length pipes are those and what is the wall thickness?

I did't understand this part of what you did:
I turned ball
joints for the base from a dumbbell. The socket is a glued stack of
plywood.

Any more photos of the ball joint you're talking about or the junction
of the pipes at the top?

RWL

Ping RCM structural engineers...
 

On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 13:41:50 -0700, Denis G. wrote:
On Jun 23, 1:24Â*pm, "Pete C." wrote: [...]
I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#)
ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container
chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for
loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are
loaded and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit
should be able to break down into components that are not more than
about 150# each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one
person in a reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. The lift unit can not
get in the way of the lower corner points of the container so that it
can be raised/lowered from a normal chassis with corner locks.

I've worked up a rough concept that looks like it could meet these
criteria: [...] http://wpnet.us/container_lift.jpg
[snip concept description]

I own a 40' container and several friends of mine also own similar
containers. Moving these containers typically requires an expensive
crane and/or an expensive "Landol" style tilt bed trailer. With a lift
system like this the savings in being able to readily load/unload from
an ordinary flatbed trailer or container chassis would add up pretty
quickly.
....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyKDDR9dd6k

Per http://www.ascom-italy.it/products-file.php?idc=13&idp=17 etc,
that ATS 200 has 7 times the necessary capacity. A much-smaller BHT
40 would be big enough for 30 tons, but still weighs a bunch of tons
and isn't composed of 150# pieces that can be assembled in under an
hour. Nowhere close to Pete's specs.

I think the under-150#-per-piece spec is unrealistic. Instead allow
up to say 500# each, building parts on small wagons or trailers like
items #90153 plus #37510 at http://www.harborfreight.com/, with some
of them having stabilizer support legs that swing out and pin in place.
Two parts would be left and right sides of a lift frame, to lift one
end of the container. Other parts would be sets of rollers with stands.
With one end of container lifted, insert a roller set under the end,
then adjust and brace the legs of the stand. Put the transport trailer
near the stand and attach winch between trailer front and container.
Remove lift frame, then winch container onto trailer, or possibly move
lift frame to other end of container and put another roller set or two
under container before winching it aboard.

--
jiw

Ping RCM structural engineers...
 

James Waldby wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 13:41:50 -0700, Denis G. wrote:
On Jun 23, 1:24Â pm, "Pete C." wrote: [...]
I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#)
ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container
chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for
loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are
loaded and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit
should be able to break down into components that are not more than
about 150# each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one
person in a reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. The lift unit can not
get in the way of the lower corner points of the container so that it
can be raised/lowered from a normal chassis with corner locks.

I've worked up a rough concept that looks like it could meet these
criteria: [...] http://wpnet.us/container_lift.jpg
[snip concept description]

I own a 40' container and several friends of mine also own similar
containers. Moving these containers typically requires an expensive
crane and/or an expensive "Landol" style tilt bed trailer. With a lift
system like this the savings in being able to readily load/unload from
an ordinary flatbed trailer or container chassis would add up pretty
quickly.
...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyKDDR9dd6k

Per http://www.ascom-italy.it/products-file.php?idc=13&idp=17 etc,
that ATS 200 has 7 times the necessary capacity. A much-smaller BHT
40 would be big enough for 30 tons, but still weighs a bunch of tons
and isn't composed of 150# pieces that can be assembled in under an
hour. Nowhere close to Pete's specs.

That is a completely different design. Note that is a fully mobile
gantry crane, while my design is four lift legs that attach to the
container and rely on the container for most of the structure. There are
no cross pieces on the top in my design nor any lower horizontal members
other than the chain binders. My design does not move other than
vertically either, so it doesn't need the extra strength that a
traveling gantry does.

I expect since a two point support condition (diagonal ends) would be
likely at points during a lift, that each leg needs to be built to
handle a 30k# load plus margin. Given that there are plenty of log
splitters with twice the capacity that are not overly massive it seems a
30K# capacity per leg is not unrealistic. Since the leg is composed of
three main sections - inner tube, outer tube and hydraulic cylinder -
which connect via the cross pins for the cylinder, disassembling those
three sections should be pretty easy. Each section shouldn't weigh much
more than the 150# goal, perhaps 200# at most.

For assembly, I expect to have a small lift frame that will temporarily
attach at the top of the container to provide an upper attachment point
for a ratchet type hoist to lift the assembled 500-600# leg into
position where it can be attached to the containers top corner lift
point. Once attached at that point, gravity will hold the leg in
position while the others are attached and while the chain binders are
attached for the lower support. Disassembly will be the opposite
sequence.

A 4" bore hydraulic cylinder running at 2,500+ PSI will provide the 30k#
lift capacity. That cylinder should be able to fit into a leg assembly
composed of something like 6" and 7" square tube of reasonable wall
thickness. That size tube would appear to be sufficiently strong for the
limited side loads involved. Remember, the trainer is moved under the
container, the container doesn't move horizontally. This is the same
concept as truck campers which routinely lift 4,000# campers with a set
of 2,000# capacity jacks.


I think the under-150#-per-piece spec is unrealistic.

It is for a traveling gantry crane, but that's not what I'm trying to
build.

Instead allow
up to say 500# each, building parts on small wagons or trailers like
items #90153 plus #37510 at http://www.harborfreight.com/, with some
of them having stabilizer support legs that swing out and pin in place.
Two parts would be left and right sides of a lift frame, to lift one
end of the container.

Again, in my design there is no lift frame, only four discrete lift legs
which rely on the existing lift frame which is integral to the
container. Each lift leg breaks down into three components for
transport.

Other parts would be sets of rollers with stands.
With one end of container lifted, insert a roller set under the end,
then adjust and brace the legs of the stand. Put the transport trailer
near the stand and attach winch between trailer front and container.
Remove lift frame, then winch container onto trailer, or possibly move
lift frame to other end of container and put another roller set or two
under container before winching it aboard.

Nope, the idea is to simply lift the container 5' vertical, back the
trailer under it into position then lower the container to rest on the
trailer just like a big truck camper. The only horizontal movement is
the trailer backing under the raised container.

Ping RCM structural engineers...
 

I think it's a Good Idea. I can see where you'd be all keen to do it G.

I think (no professional basis here) that the critical issue is rack
prevention. For your 4' lift I would try to leave 4' of leg in the
tube. Just seems right. Also, the lower point of attachment to the
container is vital for rack prevention. Instead of a foot up from the
bottom, I think attached to the bottom would be way better. If it
starts to rack, it could run away and be REALLY exciting.

I think that the 5 degree inclination could be a problem. I figure that
after being extended 4', the legs want to be 8" further apart. How are
you going to handle that?

As far as backing a trailer under it: how wide is the trailer compared
to the container? How much margin?

Good luck,
Bob

Ping RCM structural engineers...
 

Bob Engelhardt wrote:

I think it's a Good Idea. I can see where you'd be all keen to do it G.

I think (no professional basis here) that the critical issue is rack
prevention. For your 4' lift I would try to leave 4' of leg in the
tube. Just seems right.

A standard container is 8'6" high, a high cube is 9'6". Since the lift
leg attaches at the top, that makes it 8'6" long, which given a 5' lift
stroke leaves about 3' overlap which should be enough given the size of
the tube.

Also, the lower point of attachment to the
container is vital for rack prevention. Instead of a foot up from the
bottom, I think attached to the bottom would be way better. If it
starts to rack, it could run away and be REALLY exciting.

It can't be at the bottom since that would interfere with the lower
attachment points to connect on a container chassis. Any racking forces
really end up applied to the container frame via those angle plates near
the bottom, rather than pulling out since pulling out forces on one leg
inherently translate into pushing in forces on the opposite leg. Recall
that the container frame is not only strong enough to handle top lifting
the loaded container, it can also handle 5 or 6 loaded containers
stacked on top (over 400,000#). They really are incredibly strong.


I think that the 5 degree inclination could be a problem. I figure that
after being extended 4', the legs want to be 8" further apart. How are
you going to handle that?

I don't see it as a problem. I've seen plenty of lift trucks and cranes
that have their outriggers set at more significant angles and the feet
slide just fine as they spread.

As far as backing a trailer under it: how wide is the trailer compared
to the container? How much margin?

8' wide container, 8' wide trailer or container chassis. With the leg
spread, I'd expect to have 6" of clearance at each side. A truck camper
being loaded on a dually truck usually has about 3" clearance per side.

Ping RCM structural engineers...
 

Pete C. wrote:

Attention all bored structural engineers, I need assistance assessing
the viability, and if viable refining the design of some heavy lift
apparatus.

I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#)
ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container
chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for
loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded
and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be
able to break down into components that are not more than about 150#
each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a
reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. The lift unit can not get in the way
of the lower corner points of the container so that it can be
raised/lowered from a normal chassis with corner locks.

I've worked up a rough concept that looks like it could meet these
criteria:

http://wpnet.us/container_lift.jpg

Essentially is it two lift leg left/right pairs that attach to the top
lift points on the container, and rest with an angle plate at the
corners of the container perhaps a foot up from the bottom. The angle
plates have tabs on them that connect to shackles and chain assemblies
which use turnbuckle type load binders to pull the angle plates solidly
against the container frame. The legs are set at a small angle (5 deg or
less), to provide clearance for the trailer to be backed underneath.

The chains and binders fit in the under 150# criteria. The lift legs
should meet the weight criteria when disassembled into the outer tube,
inner tube and hydraulic cylinder components, so that those components
can be assembled while horizontal on the ground and then the unit raised
into place using a ratchet chain hoist or similar.

I own a 40' container and several friends of mine also own similar
containers. Moving these containers typically requires an expensive
crane and/or an expensive "Landol" style tilt bed trailer. With a lift
system like this the savings in being able to readily load/unload from
an ordinary flatbed trailer or container chassis would add up pretty
quickly.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

Thanks,

Pete C.


I move a lot of heavy equipment and before I bought my own crane I would
get the local wrecker recovery unit to load and unload equipment. They
would charge me about 120 an hour and if everything is set up the total
bill was always less than 300 bucks. The most of the recovery wreckers
can lift over 40 tons and they have two cables which makes it easier
leveling an uneven load.

John

Ping RCM structural engineers...
 

john wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Attention all bored structural engineers, I need assistance assessing
the viability, and if viable refining the design of some heavy lift
apparatus.

I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#)
ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container
chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for
loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded
and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be
able to break down into components that are not more than about 150#
each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a
reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. The lift unit can not get in the way
of the lower corner points of the container so that it can be
raised/lowered from a normal chassis with corner locks.

I've worked up a rough concept that looks like it could meet these
criteria:

http://wpnet.us/container_lift.jpg

Essentially is it two lift leg left/right pairs that attach to the top
lift points on the container, and rest with an angle plate at the
corners of the container perhaps a foot up from the bottom. The angle
plates have tabs on them that connect to shackles and chain assemblies
which use turnbuckle type load binders to pull the angle plates solidly
against the container frame. The legs are set at a small angle (5 deg or
less), to provide clearance for the trailer to be backed underneath.

The chains and binders fit in the under 150# criteria. The lift legs
should meet the weight criteria when disassembled into the outer tube,
inner tube and hydraulic cylinder components, so that those components
can be assembled while horizontal on the ground and then the unit raised
into place using a ratchet chain hoist or similar.

I own a 40' container and several friends of mine also own similar
containers. Moving these containers typically requires an expensive
crane and/or an expensive "Landol" style tilt bed trailer. With a lift
system like this the savings in being able to readily load/unload from
an ordinary flatbed trailer or container chassis would add up pretty
quickly.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

Thanks,

Pete C.

I move a lot of heavy equipment and before I bought my own crane I would
get the local wrecker recovery unit to load and unload equipment. They
would charge me about 120 an hour and if everything is set up the total
bill was always less than 300 bucks. The most of the recovery wreckers
can lift over 40 tons and they have two cables which makes it easier
leveling an uneven load.

John

Clearance issues. In many cases there is no room around the container
for anything but the trailer, i.e. no room for a crane, wrecker or
anything else along side the container, overhead obstructions for
cranes, etc. The idea here is to provide a relatively simple way to
elevate the container so a trailer can be backed under without requiring
heavy equipment and clearance around the container. The only standard
equipment that can do this is the Landoll style tilt bed trailers and
they are big $$$. A used container chassis is quite inexpensive, so a
lift setup like this could pay for itself in short order.

Ping RCM structural engineers...
 

On Jun 24, 2:37*am, wrote:
On Jun 23, 2:24 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
...
I'm trying to design a lift system that can lift a loaded (up to 60k#)
ISO intermodal cargo container 4'+ vertically so that a container
chassis or regular flatbed trailer can be backed under it for
loading/unloading similar to the way "slide in" truck campers are loaded
and unloaded. A further complication is that the lift unit should be
able to break down into components that are not more than about 150#
each, and be able to be assembled and disassembled by one person in a
reasonable amount of time, say 1hr. ...

Pete C.

That is an incredibly tall specification order you are trying to fill
there. You want 150 lb. components that one person can put together in
an hour? And that can hoist 30 tons?

Generally, those Conex boxes are handled by really HUGE overhead
trolley cranes at the dock side.

I'd say you could build a permanent in place rig to handle a load like
that, but I seriously doubt you can build one that tears up and down
in an hour that can handle that load. And I wouldn't trust it period.
One broken bolt, pin, etc., and kaboom.

That said, you may want some type of scissors jack apparatus that
lifts the box by attaching to its top and that has hydraulic cylinders
manipulating the scissors.

How that will break down into 150 lb parts is unknown.

Or a block and tackle type device that attaches to the box top.

Once again, how that will break down into 150 lb parts is unknown.
Dave

I'll bet that someone who was a Seabee (not me) could do it.