I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem
with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves
wear of the metal parts that move across each other.

My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each
other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the
wear resistance through use of a better metal.

The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod
that turns inside of a matching diameter hole.

If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you
will get an idea of what I'm referring to.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...sJoystick2.jpg

I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear
resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for
something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or
mini mill.

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On 04/11/2011 04:26 PM, Searcher7 wrote:
I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem
with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves
wear of the metal parts that move across each other.

My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each
other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the
wear resistance through use of a better metal.

The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod
that turns inside of a matching diameter hole.

If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you
will get an idea of what I'm referring to.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...sJoystick2.jpg

I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear
resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for
something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or
mini mill.

Normally you achieve wear resistance by running a hard metal against a
softer one, or a metal against plastic. Smooth surfaces are a must.

If you make one part out of steel that's hardened and polished, and the
mating part out of teflon or nylon, you may be quite pleased at the wear
life. Make that second part out of brass or bronze and you may be
pleased at the wear life, but a bit bummed at the price.

Can you machine what you want out of unhardened steel, then harden it
and do your final sizing on a whetstone? Or can you use hardened shaft
material that just needs to be cut to length?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Apr 11, 7:51*pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
On 04/11/2011 04:26 PM, Searcher7 wrote:



I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem
with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves
wear of the metal parts that move across each other.

My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each
other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the
wear resistance through use of a better metal.

The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod
that turns inside of a matching diameter hole.

If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you
will get an idea of what I'm referring to.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr...

I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear
resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for
something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or
mini mill.

Normally you achieve wear resistance by running a hard metal against a
softer one, or a metal against plastic. *Smooth surfaces are a must.

If you make one part out of steel that's hardened and polished, and the
mating part out of teflon or nylon, you may be quite pleased at the wear
life. *Make that second part out of brass or bronze and you may be
pleased at the wear life, but a bit bummed at the price.

Can you machine what you want out of unhardened steel, then harden it
and do your final sizing on a whetstone? *Or can you use hardened shaft
material that just needs to be cut to length?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Serviceshttp://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details athttp://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

I thought using "hard on soft" was intended to only increase the wear
life of one side. The soft side would have to be replaced on a more
frequent basis. And more often than when using "hard on hard".

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

"Searcher7" wrote in message
...
I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem
with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves
wear of the metal parts that move across each other.

My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each
other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the
wear resistance through use of a better metal.

The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod
that turns inside of a matching diameter hole.

If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you
will get an idea of what I'm referring to.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...sJoystick2.jpg

I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear
resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for
something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or
mini mill.

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Can you show us some close-ups of the actual wearing parts? Especially so if
you have some disassembled. That would make it easier to judge.

--
Ed Huntress

On Apr 11, 8:32*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Searcher7" wrote in message

...



I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem
with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves
wear of the metal parts that move across each other.

My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each
other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the
wear resistance through use of a better metal.

The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod
that turns inside of a matching diameter hole.

If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you
will get an idea of what I'm referring to.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr...

I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear
resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for
something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or
mini mill.

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Can you show us some close-ups of the actual wearing parts? Especially so if
you have some disassembled. That would make it easier to judge.

--
Ed Huntress

Ok, I just took a picture of the two key parts.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...MG_0442.jpgThe
small "knob" protruding from the piece on the left fits into the hole
of the large piece on the right.

When in use it only turns within about a 20° range, but over the
course of 100s of thousands of times the hole in the 1/16" wall gets
larger.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Searcher7 wrote:
On Apr 11, 8:32 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Searcher7" wrote in message

...



I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem
with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves
wear of the metal parts that move across each other.
My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each
other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the
wear resistance through use of a better metal.
The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod
that turns inside of a matching diameter hole.
If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you
will get an idea of what I'm referring to.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr...
I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear
resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for
something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or
mini mill.
Thanks a lot.
Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.
Can you show us some close-ups of the actual wearing parts? Especially so if
you have some disassembled. That would make it easier to judge.

--
Ed Huntress

Ok, I just took a picture of the two key parts.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...MG_0442.jpgThe
small "knob" protruding from the piece on the left fits into the hole
of the large piece on the right.

When in use it only turns within about a 20° range, but over the
course of 100s of thousands of times the hole in the 1/16" wall gets
larger.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Looks like a good place foe a small spherical bearing.

--
Steve W.

"Searcher7" wrote in message
...
On Apr 11, 8:32 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Searcher7" wrote in message

...



I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem
with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves
wear of the metal parts that move across each other.

My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each
other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the
wear resistance through use of a better metal.

The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod
that turns inside of a matching diameter hole.

If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you
will get an idea of what I'm referring to.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr...

I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear
resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for
something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or
mini mill.

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Can you show us some close-ups of the actual wearing parts? Especially so
if
you have some disassembled. That would make it easier to judge.

--
Ed Huntress

Ok, I just took a picture of the two key parts.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...s/IMG_0442.jpg

The small "knob" protruding from the piece on the left fits into the hole
of the large piece on the right.

..When in use it only turns within about a 20° range, but over the
course of 100s of thousands of times the hole in the 1/16" wall gets
larger.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Hmm. As it appears in the photos, the "knob," or shaft, looks like its
diameter is a lot smaller than that of the hole. Is that correct?

Second, you mention "up and down," and now "turning...within about a 20°
range." Does it do both?

When similar issues have come up before I've recommended a commercial drill
bushing for the replaceable hole, and a hardened steel shaft turning/sliding
in it. That's hardened steel on hardened steel -- the highest-quality
bearing that was used a century ago, when internal-grinding spindles ran in
plain bushings at 10,000 rpm. They didn't even lubricate them. They ran as
pneumo-dynamic bearings on a film of air. But the combination was also used
at low speeds with oil lubrication.

Anyway, the point that Tim brought up is a valid one, but the key issue in
wear bearings is the relative wear of each of the two parts, and the reasons
that softer material (bronze or brass) are often used with steel have to do
mostly with the work-hardening property of the copper-alloy bearings; their
compliance before they work-harden; and their friction coefficient when
running with poor lubrication. There is a material-to-material friction
coefficient that enters into it, and mild steel doesn't run well in
anything, except some plastics. Hard steel on hard steel is one of the best
bearings but it requires accurate fitting. Soft steel on hard steel, or soft
steel on soft steel, are among the worst.

If you decide to try the hardened shaft in a drill bushing, you can get some
tips here on the shaft and sources for bushings. I don't have any such
sources anymore.

Good luck! I'd run over to see it if the damned tolls to Staten Island
weren't such a rip-off. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Apr 11, 8:58*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
Searcher7 wrote:
On Apr 11, 8:32 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Searcher7" wrote in message

....

I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem
with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves
wear of the metal parts that move across each other.
My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each
other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the
wear resistance through use of a better metal.
The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod
that turns inside of a matching diameter hole.
If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you
will get an idea of what I'm referring to.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr....
I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear
resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for
something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or
mini mill.
Thanks a lot.
Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.
Can you show us some close-ups of the actual wearing parts? Especially so if
you have some disassembled. That would make it easier to judge.

--
Ed Huntress

Ok, I just took a picture of the two key parts.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr...
small "knob" protruding from the piece on the left fits into the hole
of the large piece on the right.

When in use it only turns within about a 20° range, but over the
course of 100s of thousands of times the hole in the 1/16" wall gets
larger.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Looks like a good place foe a small spherical bearing.

--
Steve W.

I need to keep it simple and *relatively* cheap. I do know that the
original parts were zinc coated if that matters.

The hole when new is 1/4" in diameter. As the hole enlarges, the
joystick becomes "sloppy".

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Looks like a good place foe a small spherical bearing.

--
Steve W.

I need to keep it simple and *relatively* cheap. I do know that the
original parts were zinc coated if that matters.

The hole when new is 1/4" in diameter. As the hole enlarges, the
joystick becomes "sloppy".

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Two Delrin cup seats with a hardened ball between them. You can get the
ball pre-drilled if needed.


--
Steve W.

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 17:49:18 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7
wrote:



Ok, I just took a picture of the two key parts.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...MG_0442.jpgThe
small "knob" protruding from the piece on the left fits into the hole
of the large piece on the right.

When in use it only turns within about a 20° range, but over the
course of 100s of thousands of times the hole in the 1/16" wall gets
larger.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

You should be able to find an appropriate plastic bushing here for
between $.10 and $1.00 each:
http://www.igus.com/default.asp?PAGE=IGLIDE


--
Ned Simmons

Searcher7 wrote:
I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem
with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves
wear of the metal parts that move across each other.

My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each
other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the
wear resistance through use of a better metal.

The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod
that turns inside of a matching diameter hole.

If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you
will get an idea of what I'm referring to.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...sJoystick2.jpg

I don't understand what you're asking other than how to make something not
wear out.

looking at the photo, which directions does the joystick move, and how
far?

what is it's purpose? does it run a leaf switch or something like that?

Does it move in on axis or two?

Normally you achieve wear resistance by running a hard metal against a
softer one, or a metal against plastic. Smooth surfaces are a must.

If you make one part out of steel that's hardened and polished, and the
mating part out of teflon or nylon, you may be quite pleased at the wear
life. Make that second part out of brass or bronze and you may be
pleased at the wear life, but a bit bummed at the price.

Can you machine what you want out of unhardened steel, then harden it
and do your final sizing on a whetstone? Or can you use hardened shaft
material that just needs to be cut to length?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Serviceshttp://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details athttp://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

I thought using "hard on soft" was intended to only increase the wear
life of one side. The soft side would have to be replaced on a more
frequent basis. And more often than when using "hard on hard".

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Nope, Tim is right

"newshound" fired this volley in
:


Nope, Tim is right

Besides that, hard on hard of the _same_ hardness often induces galling.

LLoyd

"newshound" wrote in message
...

Normally you achieve wear resistance by running a hard metal against a
softer one, or a metal against plastic. Smooth surfaces are a must.

If you make one part out of steel that's hardened and polished, and the
mating part out of teflon or nylon, you may be quite pleased at the wear
life. Make that second part out of brass or bronze and you may be
pleased at the wear life, but a bit bummed at the price.

Can you machine what you want out of unhardened steel, then harden it
and do your final sizing on a whetstone? Or can you use hardened shaft
material that just needs to be cut to length?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Serviceshttp://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details athttp://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

I thought using "hard on soft" was intended to only increase the wear
life of one side. The soft side would have to be replaced on a more
frequent basis. And more often than when using "hard on hard".

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Nope, Tim is right

At light loads, the dominant issue is coefficient of friction. Teflon and
Delrin have low friction coefficients, especially against hard, polished
surfaces, so you can get relatively long life out of them. They're also
highly "imbeddable," like babbitt. In other words, abrasive crud will imbed
itself deep in the bearing and cause minimal friction or wear of the harder
surface.

But the "hard and soft" idea often is misunderstood. It isn't a
hard-and-soft combination, necessarily, that leads to long bearing life. The
issues are friction (in the case of cast iron, it's friction with poor
lubrication), frequency of contact (lubrication is intended to avoid this,
but rarely is 100%), and resistance to abrasive wear (really hard surfaces
are the most resistant). Compliance may influence frequency of contact;
compliant bearings tend to align themselves to the shaft and develop a high
percentage of dry contact. Thus, babbitt bearings.

Hard steel on hard steel has a low friction coefficient and very high
resistance to abrasive wear. However, the imbeddability is near zero and the
contact issue is made worse by the non-compliance of the two surfaces.

A perfectly adjusted hard-steel pair, with reliable lubrication, is one of
the longest-wearing bearing combinations you will find. Before ball and
roller bearings became good enough and cheap enough, you would see some
hard-steel pairs in precision machinery. That was just over a century ago.

None of this may mean anything in this application, because it isn't
entirely clear how the two parts move relative to each other.

--
Ed Huntress

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"newshound" fired this volley in
:


Nope, Tim is right

Besides that, hard on hard of the _same_ hardness often induces galling.

True, when neither journal nor shaft is hard enough to resist it. Galling is
the primary reason that soft steel on soft steel is such a disaster.

--
Ed Huntress

On Apr 12, 3:23*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in messagenews:Xns9EC59A0326DF7lloydspmindspringcom@2 16.168.3.70...

"newshound" fired this volley in
:

Nope, Tim is right

Besides that, hard on hard of the _same_ hardness often induces galling..

True, when neither journal nor shaft is hard enough to resist it. Galling is
the primary reason that soft steel on soft steel is such a disaster.

--
Ed Huntress

Considering the OP's low-end fabrication equipment, do you think
hardware store CRS or aluminum rod on nylon would be good enough?
These machines aren't going to be beaten up in arcades any more.

jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Apr 12, 3:23 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in
messagenews:Xns9EC59A0326DF7lloydspmindspringcom@2 16.168.3.70...

"newshound" fired this volley in
:

Nope, Tim is right

Besides that, hard on hard of the _same_ hardness often induces galling.

True, when neither journal nor shaft is hard enough to resist it. Galling
is
the primary reason that soft steel on soft steel is such a disaster.

--
Ed Huntress

Considering the OP's low-end fabrication equipment, do you think
hardware store CRS or aluminum rod on nylon would be good enough?
These machines aren't going to be beaten up in arcades any more.

jsw

Likely so, but I want to have a better idea of how that rod moves around.
The advantage of nylon or Teflon would be that replacement bearings would be
easy. If the loads are light, as I suspect, there's no reason to go to hard,
unless slop in the bearing is a big problem.

The way he has it arranged now it looks like the fairly light loads are
concentrated at the contact points, which would be deadly for a plastic
bearing. It needs a bigger bearing surface -- a ball and socket, or
something like that.

But I'm not sure I have the movement figured out correctly.

--
Ed Huntress

Searcher7 wrote:

I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem
with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves
wear of the metal parts that move across each other.

These don't have any metal parts that move across each other:
http://mysite.verizon.net/richgrise/...oysticks1.html

Cheers!
Rich

On Apr 11, 4:26*pm, Searcher7 wrote:
I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem
with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves
wear of the metal parts that move across each other.

My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each
other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the
wear resistance through use of a better metal.

The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod
that turns inside of a matching diameter hole.

If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you
will get an idea of what I'm referring to.http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr...

I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear
resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for
something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or
mini mill.

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Darren,

Google "heim joint". If you incorporate one of these into your
design, the difficult machining is all done for you. You get a really
nice hardened and ground swivel inside of a nice swivel bearing.

Roger Shoaf

On Apr 14, 11:32*am, RS at work wrote:
On Apr 11, 4:26*pm, Searcher7 wrote:





I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem
with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves
wear of the metal parts that move across each other.

My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each
other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the
wear resistance through use of a better metal.

The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod
that turns inside of a matching diameter hole.

If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you
will get an idea of what I'm referring to.http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr...

I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear
resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for
something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or
mini mill.

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Darren,

Google "heim joint". *If you incorporate one of these into your
design, the difficult machining is all done for you. *You get a really
nice hardened and ground swivel inside of a nice swivel bearing.

Roger Shoaf-

Not if you buy them from Northern:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...ct_23631_23631
The ones I got were stamped and a bit sloppy, though they might be
good enough for a joystick. They held up on my tractor's steering
until I found some better ones.

jsw

On Apr 12, 5:38*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

...
On Apr 12, 3:23 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:



"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in
messagenews:Xns9EC59A0326DF7lloydspmindspringcom@2 16.168.3.70...

"newshound" fired this volley in
:

Nope, Tim is right

Besides that, hard on hard of the _same_ hardness often induces galling.

True, when neither journal nor shaft is hard enough to resist it. Galling
is
the primary reason that soft steel on soft steel is such a disaster.

--
Ed Huntress
Considering the OP's low-end fabrication equipment, do you think
hardware store CRS or aluminum rod on nylon would be good enough?
These machines aren't going to be beaten up in arcades any more.

jsw

Likely so, but I want to have a better idea of how that rod moves around.
The advantage of nylon or Teflon would be that replacement bearings would be
easy. If the loads are light, as I suspect, there's no reason to go to hard,
unless slop in the bearing is a big problem.

The way he has it arranged now it looks like the fairly light loads are
concentrated at the contact points, which would be deadly for a plastic
bearing. It needs a bigger bearing surface -- a ball and socket, or
something like that.

But I'm not sure I have the movement figured out correctly.

--
Ed Huntress

I've been trying to figure out how to explain this without just
repeating what I said above.

Imagine a 1/16" metal sheet. Drill a 1/4" diameter hole into it. Stick
the end of a rod into it.

Allow the rod to turn back and forth over a 20° range maximum.

The rod will be at a diameter that will not allow it to turn freely
but without any discernible play along any singular plane.

I'd draw a 3D picture of what I just said, but that would be asking
too much of MsPaint.

Here is a picture of a new and a worn joystick.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ystickWear.jpg

That center hole has widened to a larger diameter on the worn
joystick. As a result there is discernible play along any singular
plane.

I'm considering three design change, but that is not what this is
about. This is about the best materials to use for the parts that move
against each other.

From what I'm being told above, if either the rod *or* the hole were
made of Delrin the widening of the hole would occur at a slower rate
than the conventional metal to metal as shown.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Apr 19, 11:23*pm, Searcher7 wrote:
...
Here is a picture of a new and a worn joystick.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr...
...
Darren Harris

I would either sleeve it with an oilite bushing or fill the hole with
MIG weld and redrill it. You can buy oilite rod stock and turn custom
thin-walled bushings.

I bought some at a local bearing supply house. Tek and Eastern Bearing
show up near Elizabeth NJ.

jsw

"Searcher7" wrote in message
...
On Apr 12, 5:38 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

...
On Apr 12, 3:23 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:



"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in
messagenews:Xns9EC59A0326DF7lloydspmindspringcom@2 16.168.3.70...

"newshound" fired this volley in
:

Nope, Tim is right

Besides that, hard on hard of the _same_ hardness often induces
galling.

True, when neither journal nor shaft is hard enough to resist it.
Galling
is
the primary reason that soft steel on soft steel is such a disaster.

--
Ed Huntress
Considering the OP's low-end fabrication equipment, do you think
hardware store CRS or aluminum rod on nylon would be good enough?
These machines aren't going to be beaten up in arcades any more.

jsw

Likely so, but I want to have a better idea of how that rod moves around.
The advantage of nylon or Teflon would be that replacement bearings would
be
easy. If the loads are light, as I suspect, there's no reason to go to
hard,
unless slop in the bearing is a big problem.

The way he has it arranged now it looks like the fairly light loads are
concentrated at the contact points, which would be deadly for a plastic
bearing. It needs a bigger bearing surface -- a ball and socket, or
something like that.

But I'm not sure I have the movement figured out correctly.

--
Ed Huntress

I've been trying to figure out how to explain this without just
repeating what I said above.

Imagine a 1/16" metal sheet. Drill a 1/4" diameter hole into it. Stick
the end of a rod into it.

Allow the rod to turn back and forth over a 20° range maximum.

The rod will be at a diameter that will not allow it to turn freely
but without any discernible play along any singular plane.

I'd draw a 3D picture of what I just said, but that would be asking
too much of MsPaint.

Here is a picture of a new and a worn joystick.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ystickWear.jpg

That center hole has widened to a larger diameter on the worn
joystick. As a result there is discernible play along any singular
plane.

I'm considering three design change, but that is not what this is
about. This is about the best materials to use for the parts that move
against each other.

From what I'm being told above, if either the rod *or* the hole were
made of Delrin the widening of the hole would occur at a slower rate
than the conventional metal to metal as shown.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

First I'd try one of these.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#sleeve-bearings/=byhhrr

It is for sheet metal a little thicker than yours, but for $1.61, whadda ya
have to lose.

Paul K. Dickman

On Apr 19, 11:23*pm, Searcher7 wrote:


I've been trying to figure out how to explain this without just
repeating what I said above.


Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

I think what you want is a spherical bushing. I did a quick search
and did not find any thing cheap enough. But have a look and see if
this is more or less what you want.

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/CTGY/GE_Type

Dan

On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 08:16:27 -0500, "Paul K. Dickman"
wrote:


"Searcher7" wrote in message
...
On Apr 12, 5:38 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

...
On Apr 12, 3:23 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:



"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in
messagenews:Xns9EC59A0326DF7lloydspmindspringcom@2 16.168.3.70...

"newshound" fired this volley in
:

Nope, Tim is right

Besides that, hard on hard of the _same_ hardness often induces
galling.

True, when neither journal nor shaft is hard enough to resist it.
Galling
is
the primary reason that soft steel on soft steel is such a disaster.

--
Ed Huntress
Considering the OP's low-end fabrication equipment, do you think
hardware store CRS or aluminum rod on nylon would be good enough?
These machines aren't going to be beaten up in arcades any more.

jsw

Likely so, but I want to have a better idea of how that rod moves around.
The advantage of nylon or Teflon would be that replacement bearings would
be
easy. If the loads are light, as I suspect, there's no reason to go to
hard,
unless slop in the bearing is a big problem.

The way he has it arranged now it looks like the fairly light loads are
concentrated at the contact points, which would be deadly for a plastic
bearing. It needs a bigger bearing surface -- a ball and socket, or
something like that.

But I'm not sure I have the movement figured out correctly.

--
Ed Huntress

I've been trying to figure out how to explain this without just
repeating what I said above.

Imagine a 1/16" metal sheet. Drill a 1/4" diameter hole into it. Stick
the end of a rod into it.

Allow the rod to turn back and forth over a 20?range maximum.

The rod will be at a diameter that will not allow it to turn freely
but without any discernible play along any singular plane.

I'd draw a 3D picture of what I just said, but that would be asking
too much of MsPaint.

Here is a picture of a new and a worn joystick.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ystickWear.jpg

That center hole has widened to a larger diameter on the worn
joystick. As a result there is discernible play along any singular
plane.

I'm considering three design change, but that is not what this is
about. This is about the best materials to use for the parts that move
against each other.

From what I'm being told above, if either the rod *or* the hole were
made of Delrin the widening of the hole would occur at a slower rate
than the conventional metal to metal as shown.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

First I'd try one of these.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#sleeve-bearings/=byhhrr

It is for sheet metal a little thicker than yours, but for $1.61, whadda ya
have to lose.

How about the screw-together type of drill bushings? I wonder if he
has room in any plane for that, though.

--
Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air...
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Paul K. Dickman" wrote

"Searcher7" wrote in message
...
On Apr 12, 5:38 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

...
On Apr 12, 3:23 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:



"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in
messagenews:Xns9EC59A0326DF7lloydspmindspringcom@2 16.168.3.70...

"newshound" fired this volley in
:

Nope, Tim is right

Besides that, hard on hard of the _same_ hardness often induces
galling.

True, when neither journal nor shaft is hard enough to resist it.
Galling
is
the primary reason that soft steel on soft steel is such a
disaster.

--
Ed Huntress
Considering the OP's low-end fabrication equipment, do you think
hardware store CRS or aluminum rod on nylon would be good enough?
These machines aren't going to be beaten up in arcades any more.

jsw

Likely so, but I want to have a better idea of how that rod moves
around.
The advantage of nylon or Teflon would be that replacement bearings
would be
easy. If the loads are light, as I suspect, there's no reason to go
to hard,
unless slop in the bearing is a big problem.

The way he has it arranged now it looks like the fairly light loads
are
concentrated at the contact points, which would be deadly for a
plastic
bearing. It needs a bigger bearing surface -- a ball and socket, or
something like that.

But I'm not sure I have the movement figured out correctly.

--
Ed Huntress

I've been trying to figure out how to explain this without just
repeating what I said above.

Imagine a 1/16" metal sheet. Drill a 1/4" diameter hole into it.
Stick
the end of a rod into it.

Allow the rod to turn back and forth over a 20° range maximum.

The rod will be at a diameter that will not allow it to turn freely
but without any discernible play along any singular plane.

I'd draw a 3D picture of what I just said, but that would be asking
too much of MsPaint.

Here is a picture of a new and a worn joystick.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ystickWear.jpg

That center hole has widened to a larger diameter on the worn
joystick. As a result there is discernible play along any singular
plane.

I'm considering three design change, but that is not what this is
about. This is about the best materials to use for the parts that
move
against each other.

From what I'm being told above, if either the rod *or* the hole were
made of Delrin the widening of the hole would occur at a slower rate
than the conventional metal to metal as shown.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

First I'd try one of these.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#sleeve-bearings/=byhhrr

It is for sheet metal a little thicker than yours, but for $1.61,
whadda ya have to lose.

Link did not work for me, but if it is for Item # 6126K43, I
completely agree. At work we use ones just like them all the time in
16 Gauge material.


--
Stephen B.
(not Steve B that posts all the time)

"Stephen B." wrote in message
...
"Paul K. Dickman" wrote

"Searcher7" wrote in message
...
On Apr 12, 5:38 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

...
On Apr 12, 3:23 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:



"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in
messagenews:Xns9EC59A0326DF7lloydspmindspringcom@2 16.168.3.70...

"newshound" fired this volley in
:

Nope, Tim is right

Besides that, hard on hard of the _same_ hardness often induces
galling.

True, when neither journal nor shaft is hard enough to resist it.
Galling
is
the primary reason that soft steel on soft steel is such a disaster.

--
Ed Huntress
Considering the OP's low-end fabrication equipment, do you think
hardware store CRS or aluminum rod on nylon would be good enough?
These machines aren't going to be beaten up in arcades any more.

jsw

Likely so, but I want to have a better idea of how that rod moves
around.
The advantage of nylon or Teflon would be that replacement bearings
would be
easy. If the loads are light, as I suspect, there's no reason to go to
hard,
unless slop in the bearing is a big problem.

The way he has it arranged now it looks like the fairly light loads are
concentrated at the contact points, which would be deadly for a plastic
bearing. It needs a bigger bearing surface -- a ball and socket, or
something like that.

But I'm not sure I have the movement figured out correctly.

--
Ed Huntress

I've been trying to figure out how to explain this without just
repeating what I said above.

Imagine a 1/16" metal sheet. Drill a 1/4" diameter hole into it. Stick
the end of a rod into it.

Allow the rod to turn back and forth over a 20° range maximum.

The rod will be at a diameter that will not allow it to turn freely
but without any discernible play along any singular plane.

I'd draw a 3D picture of what I just said, but that would be asking
too much of MsPaint.

Here is a picture of a new and a worn joystick.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ystickWear.jpg

That center hole has widened to a larger diameter on the worn
joystick. As a result there is discernible play along any singular
plane.

I'm considering three design change, but that is not what this is
about. This is about the best materials to use for the parts that move
against each other.

From what I'm being told above, if either the rod *or* the hole were
made of Delrin the widening of the hole would occur at a slower rate
than the conventional metal to metal as shown.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

First I'd try one of these.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#sleeve-bearings/=byhhrr

It is for sheet metal a little thicker than yours, but for $1.61, whadda
ya have to lose.

Link did not work for me, but if it is for Item # 6126K43, I completely
agree. At work we use ones just like them all the time in 16 Gauge
material.


--
Stephen B.
(not Steve B that posts all the time)

Ya that was it. I should have read the link. It was all there, but I think
it represented the search path and not the item

I used them in a mechanism to drive french doors in tandem. Fitted a 1"
shaft through hot roll channel.
That was ten years ago and they still run fine.

Paul K. Dickman

On Apr 21, 4:38*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
... ...
You can machine it but you don't want to machine the bore, because it
requires excellent boring technique to avoid smearing the bronze and closing
up the pores. ...
Ed Huntress-

How about reaming?

jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Apr 21, 4:38 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
... ...
You can machine it but you don't want to machine the bore, because it
requires excellent boring technique to avoid smearing the bronze and
closing
up the pores. ...
Ed Huntress-

How about reaming?

jsw

All they tell you is to use very sharp tools and positive rake. If you have
an unused reamer, I'd try it if it doesn't have a microbevel. If it's not
new or if it does have a microbevel, I personally wouldn't use it.

But I have little experience machining Oilite. I have turned down a couple
of outside diameters and it cut very clean. I hone my HSS tools with a hard
Arkansas stone for critical jobs like that.

--
Ed Huntress

Ok I am not a machinist, I do not play one on TV. Here is my knowledge
of what I think you need. There is a bushing material called Nylatron.
It is Nylon and molybdenum disulfide. It will outlast a brass or
bronze bushing in the oilfield and water well industries. Berkeley
Pumps uses this material in their 4" line of pumps for a top bearing.
It has a stainless shaft turning inside of it at 3450 rpm for years
lubricated with water.A cheaper alternative is HDPE poly. It can
outlast steel in abrasive environments. Both of these are cheaper than
metal and can outlast metal.

Scott

On Apr 21, 9:17*pm, jano wrote:
Ok I am not a machinist, I do not play one on TV. Here is my knowledge
of what I think you need. There is a bushing material called Nylatron.
It is Nylon and molybdenum disulfide. It will outlast a brass or
bronze bushing in the oilfield and water well industries. Berkeley
Pumps uses this material in their 4" line of pumps for a top bearing.
It *has a stainless shaft turning inside of it at 3450 rpm for years
lubricated with water.A cheaper alternative is HDPE poly. It can
outlast steel in abrasive environments. Both of these are cheaper than
metal and can outlast metal.

Scott

Sorry I meant UHMW polyethylene instead of HDPE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-h...t_polyethylene

On Apr 24, 11:56*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Searcher7" wrote in message

...
On Apr 21, 4:38 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Searcher7" wrote in message

....
On Apr 20, 11:50 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Searcher7" wrote in message

....
On Apr 20, 12:07 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Searcher7" wrote in message

...
On Apr 12, 5:38 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

...
On Apr 12, 3:23 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in
messagenews:Xns9EC59A0326DF7lloydspmindspringcom@2 16.168.3.70....

"newshound" fired this volley in
:

Nope, Tim is right

Besides that, hard on hard of the _same_ hardness often induces
galling.

True, when neither journal nor shaft is hard enough to resist it.