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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem
with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves wear of the metal parts that move across each other. My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the wear resistance through use of a better metal. The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod that turns inside of a matching diameter hole. If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you will get an idea of what I'm referring to. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...sJoystick2.jpg I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or mini mill. Thanks a lot. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
On 04/11/2011 04:26 PM, Searcher7 wrote:
I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves wear of the metal parts that move across each other. My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the wear resistance through use of a better metal. The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod that turns inside of a matching diameter hole. If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you will get an idea of what I'm referring to. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...sJoystick2.jpg I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or mini mill. Normally you achieve wear resistance by running a hard metal against a softer one, or a metal against plastic. Smooth surfaces are a must. If you make one part out of steel that's hardened and polished, and the mating part out of teflon or nylon, you may be quite pleased at the wear life. Make that second part out of brass or bronze and you may be pleased at the wear life, but a bit bummed at the price. Can you machine what you want out of unhardened steel, then harden it and do your final sizing on a whetstone? Or can you use hardened shaft material that just needs to be cut to length? -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Do you need to implement control loops in software? "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
On Apr 11, 7:51*pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
On 04/11/2011 04:26 PM, Searcher7 wrote: I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves wear of the metal parts that move across each other. My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the wear resistance through use of a better metal. The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod that turns inside of a matching diameter hole. If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you will get an idea of what I'm referring to. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr... I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or mini mill. Normally you achieve wear resistance by running a hard metal against a softer one, or a metal against plastic. *Smooth surfaces are a must. If you make one part out of steel that's hardened and polished, and the mating part out of teflon or nylon, you may be quite pleased at the wear life. *Make that second part out of brass or bronze and you may be pleased at the wear life, but a bit bummed at the price. Can you machine what you want out of unhardened steel, then harden it and do your final sizing on a whetstone? *Or can you use hardened shaft material that just needs to be cut to length? -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Serviceshttp://www.wescottdesign.com Do you need to implement control loops in software? "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you. See details athttp://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html I thought using "hard on soft" was intended to only increase the wear life of one side. The soft side would have to be replaced on a more frequent basis. And more often than when using "hard on hard". Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. |
#4
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
Normally you achieve wear resistance by running a hard metal against a softer one, or a metal against plastic. Smooth surfaces are a must. If you make one part out of steel that's hardened and polished, and the mating part out of teflon or nylon, you may be quite pleased at the wear life. Make that second part out of brass or bronze and you may be pleased at the wear life, but a bit bummed at the price. Can you machine what you want out of unhardened steel, then harden it and do your final sizing on a whetstone? Or can you use hardened shaft material that just needs to be cut to length? -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Serviceshttp://www.wescottdesign.com Do you need to implement control loops in software? "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you. See details athttp://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html I thought using "hard on soft" was intended to only increase the wear life of one side. The soft side would have to be replaced on a more frequent basis. And more often than when using "hard on hard". Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Nope, Tim is right |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
"newshound" fired this volley in
: Nope, Tim is right Besides that, hard on hard of the _same_ hardness often induces galling. LLoyd |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70... "newshound" fired this volley in : Nope, Tim is right Besides that, hard on hard of the _same_ hardness often induces galling. True, when neither journal nor shaft is hard enough to resist it. Galling is the primary reason that soft steel on soft steel is such a disaster. -- Ed Huntress |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
"newshound" wrote in message ... Normally you achieve wear resistance by running a hard metal against a softer one, or a metal against plastic. Smooth surfaces are a must. If you make one part out of steel that's hardened and polished, and the mating part out of teflon or nylon, you may be quite pleased at the wear life. Make that second part out of brass or bronze and you may be pleased at the wear life, but a bit bummed at the price. Can you machine what you want out of unhardened steel, then harden it and do your final sizing on a whetstone? Or can you use hardened shaft material that just needs to be cut to length? -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Serviceshttp://www.wescottdesign.com Do you need to implement control loops in software? "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you. See details athttp://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html I thought using "hard on soft" was intended to only increase the wear life of one side. The soft side would have to be replaced on a more frequent basis. And more often than when using "hard on hard". Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Nope, Tim is right At light loads, the dominant issue is coefficient of friction. Teflon and Delrin have low friction coefficients, especially against hard, polished surfaces, so you can get relatively long life out of them. They're also highly "imbeddable," like babbitt. In other words, abrasive crud will imbed itself deep in the bearing and cause minimal friction or wear of the harder surface. But the "hard and soft" idea often is misunderstood. It isn't a hard-and-soft combination, necessarily, that leads to long bearing life. The issues are friction (in the case of cast iron, it's friction with poor lubrication), frequency of contact (lubrication is intended to avoid this, but rarely is 100%), and resistance to abrasive wear (really hard surfaces are the most resistant). Compliance may influence frequency of contact; compliant bearings tend to align themselves to the shaft and develop a high percentage of dry contact. Thus, babbitt bearings. Hard steel on hard steel has a low friction coefficient and very high resistance to abrasive wear. However, the imbeddability is near zero and the contact issue is made worse by the non-compliance of the two surfaces. A perfectly adjusted hard-steel pair, with reliable lubrication, is one of the longest-wearing bearing combinations you will find. Before ball and roller bearings became good enough and cheap enough, you would see some hard-steel pairs in precision machinery. That was just over a century ago. None of this may mean anything in this application, because it isn't entirely clear how the two parts move relative to each other. -- Ed Huntress |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
"Searcher7" wrote in message ... I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves wear of the metal parts that move across each other. My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the wear resistance through use of a better metal. The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod that turns inside of a matching diameter hole. If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you will get an idea of what I'm referring to. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...sJoystick2.jpg I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or mini mill. Thanks a lot. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Can you show us some close-ups of the actual wearing parts? Especially so if you have some disassembled. That would make it easier to judge. -- Ed Huntress |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
On Apr 11, 8:32*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Searcher7" wrote in message ... I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves wear of the metal parts that move across each other. My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the wear resistance through use of a better metal. The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod that turns inside of a matching diameter hole. If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you will get an idea of what I'm referring to. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr... I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or mini mill. Thanks a lot. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Can you show us some close-ups of the actual wearing parts? Especially so if you have some disassembled. That would make it easier to judge. -- Ed Huntress Ok, I just took a picture of the two key parts. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...MG_0442.jpgThe small "knob" protruding from the piece on the left fits into the hole of the large piece on the right. When in use it only turns within about a 20° range, but over the course of 100s of thousands of times the hole in the 1/16" wall gets larger. Thanks. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
Searcher7 wrote:
On Apr 11, 8:32 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Searcher7" wrote in message ... I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves wear of the metal parts that move across each other. My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the wear resistance through use of a better metal. The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod that turns inside of a matching diameter hole. If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you will get an idea of what I'm referring to. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr... I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or mini mill. Thanks a lot. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Can you show us some close-ups of the actual wearing parts? Especially so if you have some disassembled. That would make it easier to judge. -- Ed Huntress Ok, I just took a picture of the two key parts. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...MG_0442.jpgThe small "knob" protruding from the piece on the left fits into the hole of the large piece on the right. When in use it only turns within about a 20° range, but over the course of 100s of thousands of times the hole in the 1/16" wall gets larger. Thanks. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Looks like a good place foe a small spherical bearing. -- Steve W. |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
On Apr 11, 8:58*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
Searcher7 wrote: On Apr 11, 8:32 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Searcher7" wrote in message .... I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves wear of the metal parts that move across each other. My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the wear resistance through use of a better metal. The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod that turns inside of a matching diameter hole. If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you will get an idea of what I'm referring to. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr.... I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or mini mill. Thanks a lot. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Can you show us some close-ups of the actual wearing parts? Especially so if you have some disassembled. That would make it easier to judge. -- Ed Huntress Ok, I just took a picture of the two key parts. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr... small "knob" protruding from the piece on the left fits into the hole of the large piece on the right. When in use it only turns within about a 20° range, but over the course of 100s of thousands of times the hole in the 1/16" wall gets larger. Thanks. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Looks like a good place foe a small spherical bearing. -- Steve W. I need to keep it simple and *relatively* cheap. I do know that the original parts were zinc coated if that matters. The hole when new is 1/4" in diameter. As the hole enlarges, the joystick becomes "sloppy". Thanks. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. |
#12
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
Looks like a good place foe a small spherical bearing.
-- Steve W. I need to keep it simple and *relatively* cheap. I do know that the original parts were zinc coated if that matters. The hole when new is 1/4" in diameter. As the hole enlarges, the joystick becomes "sloppy". Thanks. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Two Delrin cup seats with a hardened ball between them. You can get the ball pre-drilled if needed. -- Steve W. |
#13
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
"Searcher7" wrote in message ... On Apr 11, 8:32 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Searcher7" wrote in message ... I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves wear of the metal parts that move across each other. My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the wear resistance through use of a better metal. The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod that turns inside of a matching diameter hole. If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you will get an idea of what I'm referring to. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr... I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or mini mill. Thanks a lot. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Can you show us some close-ups of the actual wearing parts? Especially so if you have some disassembled. That would make it easier to judge. -- Ed Huntress Ok, I just took a picture of the two key parts. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...s/IMG_0442.jpg The small "knob" protruding from the piece on the left fits into the hole of the large piece on the right. ..When in use it only turns within about a 20° range, but over the course of 100s of thousands of times the hole in the 1/16" wall gets larger. Thanks. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Hmm. As it appears in the photos, the "knob," or shaft, looks like its diameter is a lot smaller than that of the hole. Is that correct? Second, you mention "up and down," and now "turning...within about a 20° range." Does it do both? When similar issues have come up before I've recommended a commercial drill bushing for the replaceable hole, and a hardened steel shaft turning/sliding in it. That's hardened steel on hardened steel -- the highest-quality bearing that was used a century ago, when internal-grinding spindles ran in plain bushings at 10,000 rpm. They didn't even lubricate them. They ran as pneumo-dynamic bearings on a film of air. But the combination was also used at low speeds with oil lubrication. Anyway, the point that Tim brought up is a valid one, but the key issue in wear bearings is the relative wear of each of the two parts, and the reasons that softer material (bronze or brass) are often used with steel have to do mostly with the work-hardening property of the copper-alloy bearings; their compliance before they work-harden; and their friction coefficient when running with poor lubrication. There is a material-to-material friction coefficient that enters into it, and mild steel doesn't run well in anything, except some plastics. Hard steel on hard steel is one of the best bearings but it requires accurate fitting. Soft steel on hard steel, or soft steel on soft steel, are among the worst. If you decide to try the hardened shaft in a drill bushing, you can get some tips here on the shaft and sources for bushings. I don't have any such sources anymore. Good luck! I'd run over to see it if the damned tolls to Staten Island weren't such a rip-off. g -- Ed Huntress |
#14
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 17:49:18 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7
wrote: Ok, I just took a picture of the two key parts. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...MG_0442.jpgThe small "knob" protruding from the piece on the left fits into the hole of the large piece on the right. When in use it only turns within about a 20° range, but over the course of 100s of thousands of times the hole in the 1/16" wall gets larger. Thanks. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. You should be able to find an appropriate plastic bushing here for between $.10 and $1.00 each: http://www.igus.com/default.asp?PAGE=IGLIDE -- Ned Simmons |
#15
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
Searcher7 wrote:
I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves wear of the metal parts that move across each other. My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the wear resistance through use of a better metal. The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod that turns inside of a matching diameter hole. If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you will get an idea of what I'm referring to. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...sJoystick2.jpg I don't understand what you're asking other than how to make something not wear out. looking at the photo, which directions does the joystick move, and how far? what is it's purpose? does it run a leaf switch or something like that? Does it move in on axis or two? |
#16
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
Searcher7 wrote:
I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves wear of the metal parts that move across each other. These don't have any metal parts that move across each other: http://mysite.verizon.net/richgrise/...oysticks1.html Cheers! Rich |
#17
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
On Apr 11, 4:26*pm, Searcher7 wrote:
I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves wear of the metal parts that move across each other. My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the wear resistance through use of a better metal. The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod that turns inside of a matching diameter hole. If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you will get an idea of what I'm referring to.http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr... I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or mini mill. Thanks a lot. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Darren, Google "heim joint". If you incorporate one of these into your design, the difficult machining is all done for you. You get a really nice hardened and ground swivel inside of a nice swivel bearing. Roger Shoaf |
#18
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Wear resistant vs. easily machinable metals
On Apr 14, 11:32*am, RS at work wrote:
On Apr 11, 4:26*pm, Searcher7 wrote: I came up with a new design for a video game joystick. The problem with the original design that I am attempting to improve upon involves wear of the metal parts that move across each other. My goal is to A) create it so that the parts that move against each other are inserts that are easily replaceable. And B) increase the wear resistance through use of a better metal. The action of the up/down joystick causes wear at the end of a rod that turns inside of a matching diameter hole. If you look at the picture of the joystick assembly in this link, you will get an idea of what I'm referring to.http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Joystick%20Pr... I know that the easily machinable metals tend not to be wear resistant, but I'd appreciate ideas on the best metals to use for something like this. Metals that I can machine on my mini lathe or mini mill. Thanks a lot. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Darren, Google "heim joint". *If you incorporate one of these into your design, the difficult machining is all done for you. *You get a really nice hardened and ground swivel inside of a nice swivel bearing. Roger Shoaf- Not if you buy them from Northern: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...ct_23631_23631 The ones I got were stamped and a bit sloppy, though they might be good enough for a joystick. They held up on my tractor's steering until I found some better ones. jsw |
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