The other day I had a Chinese engineer that is currently working at our design facility
making parts on one of my lines. He wanted to understand just how our product is
produced.

Well he saw a vibratory bowl feeder that feeds screws in to the cell.

That thing facinated him. He wanted to know how it worked. I know some of the basics.
There is an electro magnet that vibrates the bowl, there are leaf springs that are ground
to cause the bowl to resonate with the electro magnet. All that seemed straight forward.

Then he asked the hard question. Why do the fasteners move up hill?

When I first explained what I knew he was asking if magnets were moving the parts. I knew
that other than vibrating, the magnetic field wasn't moving them.

So after scratching my head, I explored the art by looking at patents. As I suspected,
pure mechanical feeders exist. I really worked my google fu because I kept looking at it
and could not figure out what was happening.

Asking a few other engineers had one with better googlefu than me finding something. I
read it a few times and wasn't sure I had it and asked my coworker that got it from the
engineer that found it to give it to the Chinese guy so he could read it. It spoke of
pendulums and such, I didn't get it.

After a while working on another project I realized what was going on. I have a bowl with
ramps heading up hill in a spiral. On the bottom there is a plate that an electro magnet
that is grabbing and releasing every 1/60 or 1/120 of a second. The leaf springs are
ground to bring the bowl to resonance at the period of the magnet. The leaf springs are
inclined so that when the bowl is drawn to the magnet, the bowl rotates counterclockwise
and goes down, falling from under the fasterners. when the magnet is de-energised the bowl
rises, contacts fasteners and moves them ahead as the bowl rotates clockwise.

Both the Chinese engineer (doctorial candidate) and this maintenance tech was pretty darn
happy understanding something yesterday. He seeing it for the first time and me seeing
them for years but never really understanding the finer points.

Wes
--

I was a skeptic before I became a cynic.

On 02/25/2011 05:19 PM, Wes wrote:
The other day I had a Chinese engineer that is currently working at our design facility
making parts on one of my lines. He wanted to understand just how our product is
produced.

Well he saw a vibratory bowl feeder that feeds screws in to the cell.

That thing facinated him. He wanted to know how it worked. I know some of the basics.
There is an electro magnet that vibrates the bowl, there are leaf springs that are ground
to cause the bowl to resonate with the electro magnet. All that seemed straight forward.

Then he asked the hard question. Why do the fasteners move up hill?

When I first explained what I knew he was asking if magnets were moving the parts. I knew
that other than vibrating, the magnetic field wasn't moving them.

So after scratching my head, I explored the art by looking at patents. As I suspected,
pure mechanical feeders exist. I really worked my google fu because I kept looking at it
and could not figure out what was happening.

Asking a few other engineers had one with better googlefu than me finding something. I
read it a few times and wasn't sure I had it and asked my coworker that got it from the
engineer that found it to give it to the Chinese guy so he could read it. It spoke of
pendulums and such, I didn't get it.

After a while working on another project I realized what was going on. I have a bowl with
ramps heading up hill in a spiral. On the bottom there is a plate that an electro magnet
that is grabbing and releasing every 1/60 or 1/120 of a second. The leaf springs are
ground to bring the bowl to resonance at the period of the magnet. The leaf springs are
inclined so that when the bowl is drawn to the magnet, the bowl rotates counterclockwise
and goes down, falling from under the fasterners. when the magnet is de-energised the bowl
rises, contacts fasteners and moves them ahead as the bowl rotates clockwise.

Both the Chinese engineer (doctorial candidate) and this maintenance tech was pretty darn
happy understanding something yesterday. He seeing it for the first time and me seeing
them for years but never really understanding the finer points.

And the most profound and happy-making thing I'm getting out of this?

"Google-fu". I've heard it before, but this is the one time that it's
really _striking_ me.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Wes fired this volley in
:

He seeing it for the first time and me seeing
them for years but never really understanding the finer points.

Wes


Wes, there is yet another sort of vibratory feeder that relies on a very
fast stroke under the inertia of the parts (so the deck slides under the
work pieces on that stroke), followed by a slower return, whereby they
are stick to the surface and are conducted uphill-downhill-
alongaconveyor-whatever.

There are, in fact, mass flow conveyor systems build on that very
principle.

LLoyd

On Feb 25, 8:19*pm, Wes wrote:
...
After a while working on another project I realized what was going on. *I have a bowl with
ramps heading up hill in a spiral. *On the bottom there is a plate that an electro magnet
that is grabbing and releasing every 1/60 or 1/120 of a second. *The leaf springs are
ground to bring the bowl to resonance at the period of the magnet. *The leaf springs are
inclined so that when the bowl is drawn to the magnet, the bowl rotates counterclockwise
and goes down, falling from under the fasterners. when the magnet is de-energised the bowl
rises, contacts fasteners and moves them ahead as the bowl rotates clockwise.
...
Wes

The first one I saw fed then-new GM HEI modules into a test station.
It was driven by a motor with an off-center counterweight, so the
circular oscillation of the bowl was more evident. You can jump a coin
uphill on your hand with the same circular motion.

jsw

Using Google-Fu on a Chinaman. I get a smile from that.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...


And the most profound and happy-making thing I'm getting out
of this?

"Google-fu". I've heard it before, but this is the one time
that it's
really _striking_ me.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written
for you.
See details at
http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

And if you tell the Chinese engineer, they will be selling
them in Harbor Freight in about a year. With coupon for
$29.95. And a free flashlight.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote
in message
. 3.70...
Wes fired this volley in
:

He seeing it for the first time and me seeing
them for years but never really understanding the finer
points.

Wes


Wes, there is yet another sort of vibratory feeder that
relies on a very
fast stroke under the inertia of the parts (so the deck
slides under the
work pieces on that stroke), followed by a slower return,
whereby they
are stick to the surface and are conducted uphill-downhill-
alongaconveyor-whatever.

There are, in fact, mass flow conveyor systems build on that
very
principle.

LLoyd

Wes wrote:

(...)

After a while working on another project I realized what was going on. I have a bowl with
ramps heading up hill in a spiral. On the bottom there is a plate that an electro magnet
that is grabbing and releasing every 1/60 or 1/120 of a second. The leaf springs are
ground to bring the bowl to resonance at the period of the magnet. The leaf springs are
inclined so that when the bowl is drawn to the magnet, the bowl rotates counterclockwise
and goes down, falling from under the fasterners. when the magnet is de-energised the bowl
rises, contacts fasteners and moves them ahead as the bowl rotates clockwise.

That was one of the half-million things I never understood.
It bugged me for years. Now I 'got it'.

Thanks Wes.

--Winston

"Wes" wrote in message
...
The other day I had a Chinese engineer that is currently working at our
design facility
making parts on one of my lines. He wanted to understand just how our
product is
produced.

Well he saw a vibratory bowl feeder that feeds screws in to the cell.

That thing facinated him. He wanted to know how it worked. I know some
of the basics.
There is an electro magnet that vibrates the bowl, there are leaf springs
that are ground
to cause the bowl to resonate with the electro magnet. All that seemed
straight forward.

Then he asked the hard question. Why do the fasteners move up hill?

When I first explained what I knew he was asking if magnets were moving
the parts. I knew
that other than vibrating, the magnetic field wasn't moving them.

So after scratching my head, I explored the art by looking at patents. As
I suspected,
pure mechanical feeders exist. I really worked my google fu because I
kept looking at it
and could not figure out what was happening.

Asking a few other engineers had one with better googlefu than me finding
something. I
read it a few times and wasn't sure I had it and asked my coworker that
got it from the
engineer that found it to give it to the Chinese guy so he could read it.
It spoke of
pendulums and such, I didn't get it.

After a while working on another project I realized what was going on. I
have a bowl with
ramps heading up hill in a spiral. On the bottom there is a plate that an
electro magnet
that is grabbing and releasing every 1/60 or 1/120 of a second. The leaf
springs are
ground to bring the bowl to resonance at the period of the magnet. The
leaf springs are
inclined so that when the bowl is drawn to the magnet, the bowl rotates
counterclockwise
and goes down, falling from under the fasterners. when the magnet is
de-energised the bowl
rises, contacts fasteners and moves them ahead as the bowl rotates
clockwise.

Both the Chinese engineer (doctorial candidate) and this maintenance tech
was pretty darn
happy understanding something yesterday. He seeing it for the first time
and me seeing
them for years but never really understanding the finer points.

Wes
--

I was a skeptic before I became a cynic.

This really has nothing to do with your gizmo, but I worked several of the
"pack" shows in Las Vegas, where manufacturers bring automated equipment of
all manner from automated fortune cookie wrappers to automated dry cleaning
racks. We were riggers, helping bring in the delicate machinery, and
properly set and connect it. Some of it looked otherworldly. Then we got
to see it run. It was all a blur, and then the finished widgets spat out
the end at lightning speed. There were computer shape recognition
technology, rapid counters, stuff like yours that I couldn't understand or
comprehend, just stand in awe and watch it work. It was fascinating as all
get out. You must have some machine to get his attention like that.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Download the book $10
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 17:28:08 -0800, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 02/25/2011 05:19 PM, Wes wrote:
The other day I had a Chinese engineer that is currently working at our design facility
--snip--

"Google-fu". I've heard it before, but this is the one time that it's
really _striking_ me.

Perhaps due to the Chinese connection, martially speaking?

--
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
--Jack London

On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:19:40 -0500, Wes
wrote:

The other day I had a Chinese engineer that is currently working at our design facility
making parts on one of my lines. He wanted to understand just how our product is
produced.

Well he saw a vibratory bowl feeder that feeds screws in to the cell.

That thing facinated him. He wanted to know how it worked. I know some of the basics.
There is an electro magnet that vibrates the bowl, there are leaf springs that are ground
to cause the bowl to resonate with the electro magnet. All that seemed straight forward.

Then he asked the hard question. Why do the fasteners move up hill?

When I first explained what I knew he was asking if magnets were moving the parts. I knew
that other than vibrating, the magnetic field wasn't moving them.

So after scratching my head, I explored the art by looking at patents. As I suspected,
pure mechanical feeders exist. I really worked my google fu because I kept looking at it
and could not figure out what was happening.

Asking a few other engineers had one with better googlefu than me finding something. I
read it a few times and wasn't sure I had it and asked my coworker that got it from the
engineer that found it to give it to the Chinese guy so he could read it. It spoke of
pendulums and such, I didn't get it.

After a while working on another project I realized what was going on. I have a bowl with
ramps heading up hill in a spiral. On the bottom there is a plate that an electro magnet
that is grabbing and releasing every 1/60 or 1/120 of a second. The leaf springs are
ground to bring the bowl to resonance at the period of the magnet. The leaf springs are
inclined so that when the bowl is drawn to the magnet, the bowl rotates counterclockwise
and goes down, falling from under the fasterners. when the magnet is de-energised the bowl
rises, contacts fasteners and moves them ahead as the bowl rotates clockwise.

Both the Chinese engineer (doctorial candidate) and this maintenance tech was pretty darn
happy understanding something yesterday. He seeing it for the first time and me seeing
them for years but never really understanding the finer points.

Wes

How good of you to convey as much of our technological expertise as
possible to your Chinese doctoral candidate colleague.

On Feb 26, 2:29*am, Don Foreman wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:19:40 -0500, Wes
...
How good of you to convey as much of our technological expertise as
possible to your Chinese doctoral candidate colleague.

There isn't much point in concealing old technology they can buy at a
scrapyard. Stories from WW2 prisoners such as Greg Boyington show a
considerable difference between the open attitudes of Japanese who had
visited the West and the narrow racist prejudices of those who hadn't.

OTOH before WW1 the British and Germans had been each other's largest
trading partners..

jsw

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Feb 26, 2:29 am, Don wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:19:40 -0500, Wes
...
How good of you to convey as much of our technological expertise as
possible to your Chinese doctoral candidate colleague.

There isn't much point in concealing old technology they can buy at a
scrapyard. Stories from WW2 prisoners such as Greg Boyington show a
considerable difference between the open attitudes of Japanese who had
visited the West and the narrow racist prejudices of those who hadn't.

OTOH before WW1 the British and Germans had been each other's largest
trading partners..

jsw

Do you really think such machines are not already churned out in chinese
factories

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 01:29:45 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:19:40 -0500, Wes
wrote:

The other day I had a Chinese engineer that is currently working at our design facility
making parts on one of my lines. He wanted to understand just how our product is
produced.

--snip--

Both the Chinese engineer (doctorial candidate) and this maintenance tech was pretty darn
happy understanding something yesterday. He seeing it for the first time and me seeing
them for years but never really understanding the finer points.

How good of you to convey as much of our technological expertise as
possible to your Chinese doctoral candidate colleague.

Yeah! They only have our nuclear bomb secrets and the entire array of
stealth fighter and bionic soldier specs now.

Do NOT tell them about important secrets such as the way a vibratory
tumbler works. Don't you dare, Wes!

--
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
--Jack London

On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 00:25:15 +1100, the renowned F Murtz
wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Feb 26, 2:29 am, Don wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:19:40 -0500, Wes
...
How good of you to convey as much of our technological expertise as
possible to your Chinese doctoral candidate colleague.

There isn't much point in concealing old technology they can buy at a
scrapyard. Stories from WW2 prisoners such as Greg Boyington show a
considerable difference between the open attitudes of Japanese who had
visited the West and the narrow racist prejudices of those who hadn't.

OTOH before WW1 the British and Germans had been each other's largest
trading partners..

jsw

Do you really think such machines are not already churned out in chinese
factories

I see 2700+ such suppliers on the mainland. I did some work on driving
them optimally using accelerometers etc. a while ago (end customer was
the US military) but really in most cases this is _mature_ technology
that has no real secrets to yield.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:19:40 -0500, Wes
wrote:

Well he saw a vibratory bowl feeder that feeds screws in to the cell.
Wes

The Chinese do not need vibratory screwing. They seem to be doing
pretty well with their regular screwing. There are already over one
billion of them. Improving the efficiency of their screwing might lead
to too much screwing and a resultant population boom.
Dave

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 11:43:35 -0500, the renowned lid
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:19:40 -0500, Wes
wrote:

Well he saw a vibratory bowl feeder that feeds screws in to the cell.
Wes

The Chinese do not need vibratory screwing. They seem to be doing
pretty well with their regular screwing. There are already over one
billion of them. Improving the efficiency of their screwing might lead
to too much screwing and a resultant population boom.
Dave

They make most of the vibratory toys as well, so any disruption to
supply could be extremely frustrating for a portion of the population.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Don Foreman wrote:

Both the Chinese engineer (doctorial candidate) and this maintenance tech was pretty darn
happy understanding something yesterday. He seeing it for the first time and me seeing
them for years but never really understanding the finer points.

Wes

How good of you to convey as much of our technological expertise as
possible to your Chinese doctoral candidate colleague.

I saw patents going back to 1928 or so on that technology. I didn't look at the Great
Britain ones I saw reference to.

As it was, we both walked away knowing something neither of us fully understood at the
beginning, I figure that was an even trade. My typical day is not particularly
challenging, after almost a decade working here I have a pretty good grip on things and
most of what I run into is more a matter of memory rather than problem solving skills.
Actually having something to ponder and seek an answer to and then try to understand the
answer made for a rewarding day for me personally.

I'm also tending to believe your comment was tongue-in-cheek and yes, I am concerned about
transferring advanced technology to China. I have a feeling Boeing is cutting their own
throat and I'm sure a number of other companies are doing the same.

I work for a multi-national non-defense company and we have facilities all over the world.
I'm hope visiting America and meeting people that treat him civilly will pay off in time.
At the very least, my employer expects me to treat him like any other employee.



Wes

The Chinese are not our friends. No matter how much they
smile. I sense that Don has this understanding, also.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Don Foreman" wrote in
message ...

Both the Chinese engineer (doctorial candidate) and this
maintenance tech was pretty darn
happy understanding something yesterday. He seeing it for
the first time and me seeing
them for years but never really understanding the finer
points.

Wes

How good of you to convey as much of our technological
expertise as
possible to your Chinese doctoral candidate colleague.

Isn't vibratory screwing the kind that makes you go blind?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...

The Chinese do not need vibratory screwing. They seem to be
doing
pretty well with their regular screwing. There are already
over one
billion of them. Improving the efficiency of their screwing
might lead
to too much screwing and a resultant population boom.
Dave

On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:19:40 -0500, Wes
wrote:

The other day I had a Chinese engineer that is currently working at our design facility
making parts on one of my lines. He wanted to understand just how our product is
produced.

Well he saw a vibratory bowl feeder that feeds screws in to the cell.

SNIP

Hey Wes,

Ever hear the motto "Syntron Shakes the Nation". They were world
leaders in the technology at one time. Don't know about now. I've
seen some of their stuff that you could throw a specific bunch of
fastener parts into the hopper, and it would sort the bolts by length,
sort the nuts, and both washers and put them all in the proper place.
Amazing.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 09:49:02 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 00:25:15 +1100, the renowned F Murtz
wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Feb 26, 2:29 am, Don wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:19:40 -0500, Wes
...
How good of you to convey as much of our technological expertise as
possible to your Chinese doctoral candidate colleague.

There isn't much point in concealing old technology they can buy at a
scrapyard. Stories from WW2 prisoners such as Greg Boyington show a
considerable difference between the open attitudes of Japanese who had
visited the West and the narrow racist prejudices of those who hadn't.

OTOH before WW1 the British and Germans had been each other's largest
trading partners..

jsw

Do you really think such machines are not already churned out in chinese
factories

I see 2700+ such suppliers on the mainland. I did some work on driving
them optimally using accelerometers etc. a while ago (end customer was
the US military) but really in most cases this is _mature_ technology
that has no real secrets to yield.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

So you'd spoil the guy's day by revealing that what he is discovering
with great glee isn't special or secret but in fact rather mundane:
elliptical vibration, been around for decades. Millennia, in fact,
since some legless critters locomote that way.

Why screw up what may be a perfectly good dissertation topic for a
Chinese PhD candidate?

Brian Lawson wrote:

Ever hear the motto "Syntron Shakes the Nation". They were world
leaders in the technology at one time. Don't know about now. I've
seen some of their stuff that you could throw a specific bunch of
fastener parts into the hopper, and it would sort the bolts by length,
sort the nuts, and both washers and put them all in the proper place.
Amazing.

We just feed one fastener type at a time but I have no doubt with the right ramp cut outs,
air blows, and other tricks what you say can be done. No, I never heard the motto.

Are you going to NAMES this year?

Wes

On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:52:55 -0500, Wes
wrote:

SNIP ABOUT SYNTRON

Are you going to NAMES this year?

Wes


Hey Wes,

Yessir !! I've had the room booked at the La Quinta Motel since
November.

I'll be there for the week doing set-up. The show is late this year.
I'm not the historian, but I don't recall it ever taking up a day in
May. It used to fall on the last full weekend of April, but that
stopped being the case some time ago. Maybe when NAMES was held in
Toledo, where there was a conflict with the Weak Signals R/C show?

Rumour has it that Peter Villareal will be the head set-up guy again.
Great guy to work with.

If you can make it, please gimme a shout when you get there...and if
you are free for even one week-day like Wednesday or Thursday we can
sure use the help and happy to put somebody with your skills to work!!

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

ps.....little story..... At NAMES 2010, Frank from Chicago didn't show
up. He owns CDCO and sells lots of tooling and lathe accessories,. I
was very disappointed. Anyway, while we were at the IMTS show in
Chicago last September, we saw Frank and "the kid" looking around ,
and after lots of handshaking and head-bobbing and
"where-the-hell-were-you-last-year" it turns out he really hurt his
back loading his truck to come last time, and ended up in the hospital
for a week !! He will be back at NAMES this year though.

Brian Lawson wrote:

Are you going to NAMES this year?

Wes


Hey Wes,

Yessir !! I've had the room booked at the La Quinta Motel since
November.

I'll be there for the week doing set-up. The show is late this year.
I'm not the historian, but I don't recall it ever taking up a day in
May. It used to fall on the last full weekend of April, but that
stopped being the case some time ago. Maybe when NAMES was held in
Toledo, where there was a conflict with the Weak Signals R/C show?

Rumour has it that Peter Villareal will be the head set-up guy again.
Great guy to work with.

If you can make it, please gimme a shout when you get there...and if
you are free for even one week-day like Wednesday or Thursday we can
sure use the help and happy to put somebody with your skills to work!!



I could get there to work Thursday but due to vacation time remaining, I would not be able
to stay for tear down. Please advise which way you want me, Thursday or Sunday night
after the show.


ps.....little story..... At NAMES 2010, Frank from Chicago didn't show
up. He owns CDCO and sells lots of tooling and lathe accessories,. I
was very disappointed. Anyway, while we were at the IMTS show in
Chicago last September, we saw Frank and "the kid" looking around ,
and after lots of handshaking and head-bobbing and
"where-the-hell-were-you-last-year" it turns out he really hurt his
back loading his truck to come last time, and ended up in the hospital
for a week !! He will be back at NAMES this year though.

I was looking for CDCO last year. I had the jones to buy some tool holders. This year
one of their collet chucks and a L-00 mounting plate if they have it.

Wes

On Fri, 04 Mar 2011 20:03:40 -0500, Wes
wrote:

BIIIIGG SNIP

I'll schedule for teardown once again. Maybe next year I can catch a Thursday if I don't
have weather and health issues.

Wes


Hey again Wes,

That will be great. Glad to see you again and have the help.

I don't know what the Seminars are yet, although one of them I hear is
going to be from a gentleman with a metallurgy degree. He did a
practice run on the guys at the Detroit club (MDMC) last month and it
went over well.

It's a little over 140 mile round-trip to the meetings for me, plus a
ferry boat ride, The St. Clair River was frozen over, and the weather
sucked anyway, and I'm over 70 now and the thrill of winter driving
has kinda passed me by lately. So I didn't get to the meeting.

Anyway, good of you to let us know, and I hope some of the other
"regulars" from this group get there too. So much the better if
anyone can contribute a few hours to help too !!

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.