"Edward Hennessey" wrote in message
m...

"Ignoramus967" wrote in message
...
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank
is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on
GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in
the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9.
My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes
to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good
books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club,
group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find
some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in
such
matters.

i


Libraries are, indeed, temples of knowledge. But it is nice for a
child to claim his own share of the
the good within them. Used books are cheap. Book-of -the-month clubs
must surely still exist where
a kid has the distinctive anticipation of getting a book just for
him, addressed just to him like a real
adult coming to the house on a marked date.


Another important point relevant to the above is his book is his.
Pride of possession
reinforces interest. You not only can't write in library books but
that is a particularly
distaseful crime. You can outline, make critical marginalia or
otherwise usefully
annotate your own books. They can be retrieved for study or enjoyment
at any time.
You can mark words and phrases that are particularly gifted...or that
require further thought or a trip to the thesaurus and dictionary.

For that matter, the
first books I would buy the boy would be a Roget's Thesaurus
(thumb-indexed and
conceptually organized) and an unabridged dictionary like Merriam
Webster's or
Random House. Your son might want to check an entry every time he
references it with
the understanding that if he sees a number of checks piling up by a
word or conceptual
cluster of antonyms or synonyms, that might signal memorization should
take an extended
look.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

when I was that age, I really liked the edgar rice buroughs series on mars
and venus - not really science fiction, more action fantasy, but eaasy
reading

"Ignoramus967" wrote in message
...
On 2010-06-09, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
See if your library has some availible as 'ebooks'. A lot of books
are availible that way, rather than in printed form. Also, their card
catalog should be availible online and show which branch has which books
on their shelves.

If you want any of the classics, try http://www.gutenberg.org. The
baen free library http://www.baen.com/library has some free science
fiction books, too.

I like the science fiction idea. SF books have better English than a
typical "diary of poop" kids' book. And SF can possibly appeal to his
imagination.

i

Don Foreman wrote:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 20:45:38 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Ignoramus967 wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i
My first try hasn't shown up yet, so I'll try again.
It said...


"To teach is to learn".

Have him teach you.
Not that there is anything wrong with your command of the language, ig.
But it is a good tactic.

Someone mentioned diagramming sentences.
That would be an excellent place to start.

I think that's a horrible place to start!
Let that formality and discipline happen at school if it happens at
all.

There is much more to language than structure and rules. Language is
about communication. The best way to learn language is to be exposed
to many good examples of that language well used. It is more likely
to "connect" if reading well-written material becomes an enjoyable way
to spend liesure time. I define "well-written" here as material
that communicates effectively, engages the reader. Most novels are
fraught with grammatical violations. These violations are not usually
accidental; editors are very good at catching grammatial gaffes. They
are used for emphasis or effect or to be colloquial. Davy Crockett
probably said "ain't" now and then, and (horrors) may have even
regarded prepositions as acceptable words to end sentences with...

LOL! That's a good one, Davy!

But, as my beloved English Lit professor insisted, you need to know the rules
before you break them.

Sentences are structures.
Diagramming, while not the most fun I ever had, is important.
It's really the only way to express how an expression of a thought is assembled.

How does the sentence work?
Because if it doesn't work the way you want, it won't say what you mean.


--

Richard Lamb

No doubt you are as alarmed as I by the tragic decline in America's language
skills. If 10 people read the following sentence:

Two tanker trucks has just overturned in Alaska, spilling a totel of 10,000
gallons of beer onto a highway.

Two would find an error in subject-verb agreement, two would find an error in
spelling, and six would find a sponge and drive north.
- Mike Nichols, columnist

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...
No doubt you are as alarmed as I by the tragic decline in America's
language skills. If 10 people read the following sentence:

Two tanker trucks has just overturned in Alaska, spilling a totel of
10,000 gallons of beer onto a highway.

Two would find an error in subject-verb agreement, two would find an error
in spelling, and six would find a sponge and drive north.
- Mike Nichols, columnist

I assume that a totel is a motel that you tote around with you, eh? Would
you have expected they could hold 10,000 gallons? It's a surprise to me.

--
Ed Huntress

For crying out loud, you're talking about a nine year old kid. Let him
grow up enjoying what he wants, and don't push him.

(speaking as the father of a son who was Outstanding Senior in the NMSU
College of Arts and Sciences the semester he graduated with a major in
Computer Science with a supplemental major in Math and who is now in the
PhD program in CS at Purdue, and a daughter who just graduated summa cum
laude in Biology and German at UNM and will be starting in the PhD
program in Neuroscience at the University of Utah in the fall)
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

"Ed Huntress" writes:

"Wes" wrote in message
...
Ignoramus967 wrote:

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.


Reading will help a lot. I read lots of books when I was a kid.

I took the SAT test in 1974 or 5 when 750/750 was the limit.

I'm curious, Wes. Where did you hear that the max scores in '74 or '75 were
750/750? I've never heard this. I thought that they were always 800/800,
until the recent revision of the system into three parts.

It wasn't. That's when I took the SAT; the range was 200-800.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

Ditto. And when I'd ask Mom or Dad for word definitions, I was
promptly steered to the Websters Hernia Edition dictionary. I later
bought a collegiate paperback dict for my own use, occasionally
spending half an hour at a time reading every word in it. That must
have been 1965 or so, age 11 or 12. It gave me a lot larger
vocabulary than most of my friends, which was fun. Using large words
in front of parents was a hoot, too.

I recommend purchasing dictionaries as gifts for anyone who
continually asks word meanings, pronunciations, or roots/origins.
Also, for furriners (ESL learners) and curious kids. They're
inexpensive and keep on giving to the recipient.


I purchased an unabridged dictionary from door to door salesman back when I
had my lockshop. I made it a habit to flip open to a page at random and
highlight any new words or any obscure words or definitions. One I remember
was an alternate definition for occupant was a prostitute.

Gave me a chuckle every time I was tossing out junk mail.

Another idea is to subscribe to several of the on line services like:

http://wordsmith.org/awad/subscribe.html

http://www.drhinternet.net/mw/link.p...303&N=3210&L=4

Both of these are free and quire enjoyable.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...
No doubt you are as alarmed as I by the tragic decline in America's
language
skills. If 10 people read the following sentence:

Two tanker trucks has just overturned in Alaska, spilling a totel of
10,000
gallons of beer onto a highway.

Two would find an error in subject-verb agreement, two would find an error
in
spelling, and six would find a sponge and drive north.
- Mike Nichols, columnist

I suspect something is amiss here. Beer is not transported in tanker
trucks. It might be in kegs, bottles or cans, but never in tanker trucks.

Wine and distilled sprits are shipped in tanker trucks however.


--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

"Edward Hennessey" wrote in message
...

..

For that matter, the
first books I would buy the boy would be a Roget's Thesaurus
(thumb-indexed and
conceptually organized) and an unabridged dictionary like Merriam
Webster's or
Random House. Your son might want to check an entry every time he
references it with
the understanding that if he sees a number of checks piling up by a
word or conceptual
cluster of antonyms or synonyms, that might signal memorization should
take an extended
look.

What I used to do when I was reading and ran across a word in a book that
was new to me was to make a note of the page in the book where the word was
used and my best guess from the context. When I got the chance later,
--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent. I
would look up the word and see how close I came by guessing.

On Jun 9, 11:29*am, Jim Stewart wrote:
Ignoramus967 wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

I don't think you should do a thing about it. *Your
son could be a great writer and still be marked down
for whatever the test creator decided was not above
average for his group. *I remember coaching my daughter
on an writing assignment in 4th grade. *She came up
with a delightful sentence or two and I remarked that
Steinbeck could not have said it better. *The teacher
'corrected' the sentence to a more bland form.

We need people that carry over part of their ethic
style. *Look what Joseph Conrad did. *An incredible
novelist who didn't speak fluent English until he was
in his twenties.

Just my humble opinion...

At my high school you failed the grammar part of an english test if
you used one coma splice. I've had no regard for english teachers and
their tests since then.
There's nothing wrong with comic books and graphic novels. Around here
the kids are into anime.
Karl

On Jun 10, 3:20Â*am, Steve Ackman
wrote:
...
Â* A better example might be the German rooted
Minnesotan expressions along the lines of, "You coming
with?"

Du kommst mit?

I didn't really understand the subtleties of the subjunctive and verb
tenses like the perfective until I studied Latin and then German,
which retain grammatical structures that have been simplified but not
completely lost in English. Have you taught him any ру��кий �зык?

jsw

On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 19:41:02 -0500, Ignoramus967
wrote:

On 2010-06-09, Wes wrote:
Ignoramus967 wrote:

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.


Do you speak Russian to him at home? If so, stop using the language
when he is home.. The US Army, and probably others, use the total
emersion system where you either speak the language that you are
learning or go without. If you want a glass at the table you either
say it in Chinese, Russian, whatever, or go without.

Cheers,

John B.
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)

Steve Ackman wrote:

In , on Wed, 09 Jun 2010
22:53:31 -0700, Larry Jaques, lid wrote:

Ditto. And when I'd ask Mom or Dad for word definitions, I was
promptly steered to the Websters Hernia Edition dictionary. I later
bought a collegiate paperback dict for my own use, occasionally
spending half an hour at a time reading every word in it. That must
have been 1965 or so, age 11 or 12.

Ages 6-8, I lived in Puerto Rico. Since AFRTS was
the only English station, my parents didn't bother
bringing the TV. They did, however, bring the
Encyclopedia Americana and a now unremembered brand of
your aptly described Hernia dictionary. We lived on
the beach, so every opportunity was spent outdoors, but
rainy days, after dark, etc., the Encyclopedia was pretty
much all there was for entertainment after I'd read the
Forest Fire Mystery a few times. To me, the dictionary
was a reference book to be consulted when needed (though
I did pick pages at random sometimes just to read) while
the Encycopedia was a fascinating and staggering
collection of everything I could possibly want to know.

Oh... there was a Navy building on the beach that
was occupied whenever a tanker was offloading jet fuel.
One of the things it contained was a TV. Exercise in
Primary Problem Solving 101. Turns out there _was_ a
way for scrawny little toe-headed boys to gain illicit
entry, so we did actually get to see TV once in awhile,
but at great effort, and with great fear of being caught.
Getting out took as much time and effort as getting
in, and we never knew when the Navy guys might show
up. I don't think there were even Saturday morning
cartoons. IIRC, AFRTS (almost spells farts! hah!)
didn't come on until noon. Anyway, the novelty soon
wore off, and our television adventures soon dwindled
to rarely, and then to "why bother?"

It gave me a lot larger
vocabulary than most of my friends, which was fun. Using large words
in front of parents was a hoot, too.

Yup.

I recommend purchasing dictionaries as gifts for anyone who
continually asks word meanings, pronunciations, or roots/origins.
Also, for furriners (ESL learners) and curious kids. They're
inexpensive and keep on giving to the recipient.

Or just teach them how to add thefreedictionary.com
and thefreelibrary.com to the search engine function
in their browser.


I was a broadcast Engineer for AFRTS in the early '70s in Alaska.
The radio station was in operation 24/7. The TV station did go on at
noon during the week, but we signed on at 7:00 AM on the weekends. It
took between a half hour to two hours to get everything ready to go on
the air each day. The late sign on during the week was based on most
viewers being on duty, and kids in school. Our Saturday mornings were
cartoons until the newscast at noon.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

wrote in message
...
On Jun 9, 11:29 am, Jim Stewart wrote:
Ignoramus967 wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

I don't think you should do a thing about it. Your
son could be a great writer and still be marked down
for whatever the test creator decided was not above
average for his group. I remember coaching my daughter
on an writing assignment in 4th grade. She came up
with a delightful sentence or two and I remarked that
Steinbeck could not have said it better. The teacher
'corrected' the sentence to a more bland form.

We need people that carry over part of their ethic
style. Look what Joseph Conrad did. An incredible
novelist who didn't speak fluent English until he was
in his twenties.

Just my humble opinion...

At my high school you failed the grammar part of an english test if
you used one coma splice. I've had no regard for english teachers and
their tests since then.

You're being vindicated. The 15th edition of the Chicago Manual of Style has
dropped it's prohibition against comma splices. The other stylebooks will
eventually catch up.

It's about time, since many top fiction writers have been using it for a
half-century. The semicolon is in trouble now. g

--
Ed Huntress

On 2010-06-10, Karl Townsend wrote:

"Ignoramus967" wrote in message
...
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

Iggy, just another thought for you. Focus on your son's strengths. Anybody
enjoys becoming excellent at what they are already good at. if he can get a
99% on math, i bet he can understand the function of encoders, how a servo
is like a dc motor, etc. etc. Great engineers are made before they are
teenagers. Not to mention the thrill of working along side dad. I made a
point of doing this with my son starting when he was five. We still work
together 10 or more hours a week. He's 27.

Karl, this is a TOTALLY great idea. I agree 100%. I try to get him
involved, anywhere where bare 220v wires are not present. He already
knows how to weld, though not too well. I really would like to keep
some deep contact with my kids once they grow up.

i

On Jun 10, 7:41*am, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 19:41:02 -0500, Ignoramus967

wrote:
On 2010-06-09, Wes wrote:
Ignoramus967 wrote:

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

Do you speak Russian to him at home? If so, stop using the language
when he is home.. The US Army, and probably others, use the total
emersion system where you either speak the language that you are
learning or go without. If you want a glass at the table you either
say it in Chinese, Russian, whatever, or go without.

Cheers,

John B.
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)

I learned French in high school by the immersion system but we didn't
use it much outside of class, probably because the teacher was so
intense and demanding we didn't want to be reminded of her. The
college German course was aimed toward engineering majors who needed
to read technical literature. My roommate and I practiced it outside
class, mainly to make private jokes. For me at least there wasn't a
significant difference between the two approaches. When I was
stationed in Germany I was soon able to understand and talk to the
locals, and also a French lady friend.

I'm slowly learning Russian by probably the worst method, self-
teaching without a formal course or feedback from a native speaker. I
don't quite have Erin Andrews' talent for pronouncing those difficult
sounds.

I think the point of the immersion system is to teach someone to speak
a language very quickly. It delayed learning to read and write the
language.

jsw

On 2010-06-10, Ed Huntress wrote:

"Ignoramus967" wrote in message
...
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

What did they measure? Grammar, comprehension, syntax, vocabulary, spelling,
or what?

I think that mostly comprehension and vocabulary.

See if you can get a copy of what they tested. There's a big difference in
the way to teach parts of speech versus reading comprehension.

Yep, I will.

"Ignoramus28478" wrote in message
...
On 2010-06-10, Ed Huntress wrote:

"Ignoramus967" wrote in message
...
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

What did they measure? Grammar, comprehension, syntax, vocabulary,
spelling,
or what?

I think that mostly comprehension and vocabulary.

You've gotten lots of good tips here about getting him into reading heavily,
and that's a painless route to dealing with both of those issues.
Comprehension ultimately is understanding the meanings and relationships of
words. You can teach that specifically, and have him slow down and pick
statements apart to see what they really mean. Or you can build an easy
facility with it by focused reading. He has to be interested enough in the
subject to care about what the words mean.

Vocabulary is another issue that's easily served by lots of reading of good
material. Diversity in reading helps there. He needs more than a couple of
subjects to get interested in -- preferably, to get passionate about.

Or there are methods, such as "word of the day" routines, that will help. I
think that reading is better. It has additional benefits. He may actually
learn something about other subjects along the way. g

If he can read a couple of years beyond his grade, he'll progress faster.


See if you can get a copy of what they tested. There's a big difference
in
the way to teach parts of speech versus reading comprehension.

Yep, I will.

Is your son in Lisle public schools? If so, I have an e-mail from the
director of curriculum for that school district that I'll forward on to you.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 17:14:03 -0500
Ignoramus967 wrote:

snip
I love both suggestions. I think that he may have read some hardy boys
books (secrets of the old mill comes to mind, at first I thought it
was related to milling machines). I will explore this hardy book
question today.

Another brief series he may find of interest was "The Three
Investigators". For example:

http://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Stutte...dp/0679811710/

One of the main characters is Jupiter Jones, his dad owns a "salvage
yard". The three boys have built a club-house/base within the yard and
come up with all sorts of things they have salvaged. Jupiter likes to
use big words too, makes him seem to be older than he really is...

I read all ~15 books in the series, many years ago when I was around
your sons age.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On 2010-06-10, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 17:14:03 -0500
Ignoramus967 wrote:

snip
I love both suggestions. I think that he may have read some hardy boys
books (secrets of the old mill comes to mind, at first I thought it
was related to milling machines). I will explore this hardy book
question today.

Another brief series he may find of interest was "The Three
Investigators". For example:

http://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Stutte...dp/0679811710/

One of the main characters is Jupiter Jones, his dad owns a "salvage
yard". The three boys have built a club-house/base within the yard and
come up with all sorts of things they have salvaged. Jupiter likes to
use big words too, makes him seem to be older than he really is...

I read all ~15 books in the series, many years ago when I was around
your sons age.


Leon, I bought both those hardy boys, as well as this stuttering
parrot book. They are not that expensive used. Thanks a lot.

On 6/9/2010 6:14 PM, Ignoramus967 wrote:

I love both suggestions. I think that he may have read some hardy boys
books (secrets of the old mill comes to mind, at first I thought it
was related to milling machines). I will explore this hardy book
question today.

Ig,

You want the old editions of these books, published in the 40's and
50's. The series has been rewritten to make them more PC and less
interesting. A good excuse to visit the used book store.

Kevin Gallimore

On 2010-06-10, axolotl wrote:
On 6/9/2010 6:14 PM, Ignoramus967 wrote:

I love both suggestions. I think that he may have read some hardy boys
books (secrets of the old mill comes to mind, at first I thought it
was related to milling machines). I will explore this hardy book
question today.

Ig,

You want the old editions of these books, published in the 40's and
50's. The series has been rewritten to make them more PC and less
interesting. A good excuse to visit the used book store.

I was fully unaware (I bought books 1-6). What has changed?

i

Don Foreman on Wed, 09 Jun 2010
14:51:59 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 14:24:42 -0500, Ignoramus967
wrote:

My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

Take hiim to a public library and introduce him to books. There is a
lot of good children's fiction. Enjoyable reading from good authors
will improve his English skills by osmosis, while being an enjoyable
activity. Summer is an excellent time to do this.

That will work.

For "fun" learning "The Transitive Vampire" is actually a very
readable, enjoyable, and educational grammar. The sentences and
illustrations are just enough offbeat as to demonstrate what is being
'taught' without the reader getting caught up in the meaning.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On 6/10/2010 4:44 PM, Ignoramus28478 wrote:
On 2010-06-10, wrote:
On 6/9/2010 6:14 PM, Ignoramus967 wrote:

I love both suggestions. I think that he may have read some hardy boys
books (secrets of the old mill comes to mind, at first I thought it
was related to milling machines). I will explore this hardy book
question today.

Ig,

You want the old editions of these books, published in the 40's and
50's. The series has been rewritten to make them more PC and less
interesting. A good excuse to visit the used book store.

I was fully unaware (I bought books 1-6). What has changed?

i

Plotlines, dialog, pretty much everything. My son read the HB books I
had as a kid. The school had a (required) summer reading program with a
list of books. After I complained the the selection of books was slanted
towards the tastes of little girls, the Hardy Boys books were added. Son
took the multiple choice test on a Hardy Boys book. Flunked. Same title,
different book.
For instance, I can remember that in "The Shore Road Mystery" Frank
Hardy gets his revolver and hides in the trunk of a car to catch car
thieves. I don't believe that would pass the current children's
literature editorial gate. The old books simply have better writing.

Don't neglect to take your kids to shows as they get older. What is dry
and boring in the classroom is funny and fascinating on stage. With both
of mine, I let them know that the school wouldn't let them read the
"good parts" of Shakespeare, and "let" them read the scene in All's Well
where Parolles is trying to talk Helena out of her virginity ("That,
once lost is won ten times over!").

If you make a trip out east, I'll point you to the Old Mill.
Unfortunately, it's been trashed by someone making a suburban home from it.

Kevin Gallimore

axolotl wrote:

On 6/10/2010 4:44 PM, Ignoramus28478 wrote:
On 2010-06-10, wrote:
On 6/9/2010 6:14 PM, Ignoramus967 wrote:

I love both suggestions. I think that he may have read some hardy boys
books (secrets of the old mill comes to mind, at first I thought it
was related to milling machines). I will explore this hardy book
question today.

Ig,

You want the old editions of these books, published in the 40's and
50's. The series has been rewritten to make them more PC and less
interesting. A good excuse to visit the used book store.

I was fully unaware (I bought books 1-6). What has changed?

i

Plotlines, dialog, pretty much everything. My son read the HB books I
had as a kid. The school had a (required) summer reading program with a
list of books. After I complained the the selection of books was slanted
towards the tastes of little girls, the Hardy Boys books were added. Son
took the multiple choice test on a Hardy Boys book. Flunked. Same title,
different book.
For instance, I can remember that in "The Shore Road Mystery" Frank
Hardy gets his revolver and hides in the trunk of a car to catch car
thieves. I don't believe that would pass the current children's
literature editorial gate. The old books simply have better writing.

Don't neglect to take your kids to shows as they get older. What is dry
and boring in the classroom is funny and fascinating on stage. With both
of mine, I let them know that the school wouldn't let them read the
"good parts" of Shakespeare, and "let" them read the scene in All's Well
where Parolles is trying to talk Helena out of her virginity ("That,
once lost is won ten times over!").

If you make a trip out east, I'll point you to the Old Mill.
Unfortunately, it's been trashed by someone making a suburban home from it.


I loved the 'Space opera' genera. EE 'Doc' Smith and his 'Lensman'
series. Robert Heinlein's 'The Moon Is a harsh Mistress' about survival
on Mars during a political upheaval. There were hundreds of others. I
read everything on that subject, along with military history, hard
science and electronics my school's various libraries.

I volunteered in the library while in Junior High to get first chance
at new books, and hard to get books. I also repaired a lot of book
bindings, and used a wood burner and heat transfer foil to label new
books. I typed new cards for the card files, and maintained them. It
got me out of home room to open the library every morning, as well as
study hall.

When I entered high school I was informed, "No male will ever work in
my library" by a 65 year old librarian.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

I took the SAT test in 1974 or 5 when 750/750 was the limit.

I'm curious, Wes. Where did you hear that the max scores in '74 or '75 were
750/750? I've never heard this. I thought that they were always 800/800,
until the recent revision of the system into three parts.

You are correct on the 800. My brain fubared on that. I was thinking of a kid in my
class that got a 750 on the math portion. He was walking around with a big head until one
of my clasemates asked him what he got on the verbal. When he said 450, good old Cindy
exclaimed, Oh, that is a 1200 combined, just like Wes. Pop went his balloon.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
snip
Nowadays, kids can look up words on their phones. But I still like
giving out paperback dictionaries and saying "When you look up a word,
read all the entries on the page." I consider it to be doing my part
to reduce the quantity of ghastly speech in the world, such as these
ever-lovely words, phrases, mispronunciations, and misspellings:
"try and"
"tempatcher"
"viola"
"there's"
"ect"
"masonary"
"where's it at?"
"to much"
"for her and I"
"Febuary"
"eeeePock"
"less then"
and Buddha knows how many others.


My most hated a redouble, irregardless, speciality, momentarily,
orientate, literally, burglarized, deceptively, enormity,

Ignoramus967 wrote:

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes
to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good
books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.


Iggy, I have a suggestion: I never had reading problems, but my dad
decided he wanted me in "turbo" reading mode when I was about 8. He
bought me the 12-volume set, "Popular Mechanics Junior Do It Yourself
Encyclopedia". It was jammed full of projects that started with 8-year-
old skills, running to those that would ultimately challenge adults.

I still have that old set, and DEVOURED it as a kid. I must've tried 75%
of the projects, and read the set over and again more than 100 times.

At the same time, he happily allowed me to subcribe to Don Gilbert's "Mr.
Wizard's Science Club", which sent out monthly newsletters with projects.
Hell -- I learned to COOK from that publication, starting out with a
project on the effects of CO2 (baking a pound cake as part of the
experiment).

As you suggested, it was something I liked, and it was in writing, so I
had to read a lot.

I don't know if that publication is still available as an historic
reprint, but there MUST be some series like it still around with
reasonably difficult, possibly dangerous projects that will challenge
kids (not the milquetoast crap they feed them normally).

Check out some of the so-called "mad scientist" sites to see if they
might have some subscription pubs.

LLoyd

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 06:17:35 -0400, "Buerste"
wrote the following:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
snip
Nowadays, kids can look up words on their phones. But I still like
giving out paperback dictionaries and saying "When you look up a word,
read all the entries on the page." I consider it to be doing my part
to reduce the quantity of ghastly speech in the world, such as these
ever-lovely words, phrases, mispronunciations, and misspellings:
"try and"
"tempatcher"
"viola"
"there's"
"ect"
"masonary"
"where's it at?"
"to much"
"for her and I"
"Febuary"
"eeeePock"
"less then"
and Buddha knows how many others.


My most hated a redouble, irregardless, speciality, momentarily,
orientate, literally, burglarized, deceptively, enormity,

How about FORMidable's mispronunciation, forMIDable? I used to think
it was only a Britishism (that's the way Jean Luc Picard said it.)

That's not a mispronunciation. There is no "verbal base" to the word
formidable (nothing equivalent to "lament" as a base for "lamentable," so
syllabic emphasis can go either way. Webster's accepts both.

Similar cases are hospitable and amicable. The trend is to avoid three
sequential, unemphasized syllables. They run together without much
separation. You're just getting old enough to notice the changing morphology
of English. If you were younger, you'd think you were an antiquarian crank.
d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Jun 11, 10:14*am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
...
How about FORMidable's mispronunciation, forMIDable? *I used to think
it was only a Britishism (that's the way Jean Luc Picard said it.)

That's not a mispronunciation. There is no "verbal base" to the word
formidable (nothing equivalent to "lament" as a base for "lamentable," so
syllabic emphasis can go either way. Webster's accepts both.
....
Ed Huntress

In French, which has no (or less) stress variation, it can be for-mi-
DAB-l.
http://french.about.com/od/pronunciation/a/rhythm.htm

jsw

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:10:12 -0500
Ignoramus28478 wrote:

snip
I bought both those hardy boys, as well as this stuttering
parrot book. They are not that expensive used. Thanks a lot.

The Hardy Boys had quite a few books in the series. They were actually
written by several authors, always claiming to be Frank W. Dixon. There
is a Wiki entry that covers much of the history. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hardy_Boys

"The Three Investigator" series was originally around 10 books or so. I
sill have number 15, but it was written by someone else. The "tone"
changed and I didn't like them as well as the original author. This
Wiki entry has a lot more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Investigators

It seems the series eventually consisted of 43 books and several other
authors. I enjoyed reading both of these series at the time, all that I
could get my hands on. If your son likes them it should keep him
occupied for some time to come

Something that both of you may enjoy, but your son may be a bit young
yet is "Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea" by Jules Verne. Be
careful with this one if you decide to buy it. There are at least four
versions I know of. The most common and the one I read was poorly
translated. There are at least three more versions that are much
better. See the Wiki, take note of the translations section. I have one
of the newer translations buy haven't gotten around to reading in yet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20000_L...a#Translations

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On 2010-06-11, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:10:12 -0500
Ignoramus28478 wrote:

snip
I bought both those hardy boys, as well as this stuttering
parrot book. They are not that expensive used. Thanks a lot.

The Hardy Boys had quite a few books in the series. They were actually
written by several authors, always claiming to be Frank W. Dixon. There
is a Wiki entry that covers much of the history. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hardy_Boys

"The Three Investigator" series was originally around 10 books or so. I
sill have number 15, but it was written by someone else. The "tone"
changed and I didn't like them as well as the original author. This
Wiki entry has a lot more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Investigators

It seems the series eventually consisted of 43 books and several other
authors. I enjoyed reading both of these series at the time, all that I
could get my hands on. If your son likes them it should keep him
occupied for some time to come

Something that both of you may enjoy, but your son may be a bit young
yet is "Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea" by Jules Verne. Be
careful with this one if you decide to buy it. There are at least four
versions I know of. The most common and the one I read was poorly
translated. There are at least three more versions that are much
better. See the Wiki, take note of the translations section. I have one
of the newer translations buy haven't gotten around to reading in yet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20000_L...a#Translations


I bought a bunch of original Hardy Boys books on ebay. I loved Leagues
under the Sea myself when I was a kid.

i

Ignoramus10537 fired this volley in
:

I loved Leagues
under the Sea myself when I was a kid.



Did you love all 20,000 of them, or just a few?

LLoyd

On 2010-06-11, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus10537 fired this volley in
:

I loved Leagues
under the Sea myself when I was a kid.



Did you love all 20,000 of them, or just a few?

I would say most of them.

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:25:57 -0500
Ignoramus10537 wrote:

snip
I loved Leagues under the Sea myself when I was a kid.

Well you may want to re-read it, using one of the newer
translations. The gist I got was that the original translation left
out a lot of technical details. It was originally written in French. I
have also seen "kids" versions, more pictures, dumbed down text.

Several other works by Jules Verne had bum translations too. I've been
watching for some of his other titles to turn up at used book sales,
but so far have only found a newer version of Leagues. The old versions
are easy to find. Eventually I'll find some, always do, just have to be
patient...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On 2010-06-11, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:25:57 -0500
Ignoramus10537 wrote:

snip
I loved Leagues under the Sea myself when I was a kid.

Well you may want to re-read it, using one of the newer
translations. The gist I got was that the original translation left
out a lot of technical details. It was originally written in French. I
have also seen "kids" versions, more pictures, dumbed down text.

Several other works by Jules Verne had bum translations too. I've been
watching for some of his other titles to turn up at used book sales,
but so far have only found a newer version of Leagues. The old versions
are easy to find. Eventually I'll find some, always do, just have to be
patient...

Well, I read it in Russian.

i

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 15:45:20 -0500
Ignoramus10537 wrote:

On 2010-06-11, Leon Fisk wrote:
snip

Several other works by Jules Verne had bum translations
too.I've been watching for some of his other titles to
turn up at used book sales, but so far have only found a
newer version of Leagues. The old versions are easy to
find. Eventually I'll find some, always do, just have to
be patient...

Well, I read it in Russian.

Hmm... I wonder if it was translated from the original French (good) or
they used the bum English version. Here is what the Wiki had to say
about this:

===
The novel was first translated into English in 1873 by Reverend Lewis
Page Mercier (aka "Mercier Lewis"). Mercier, under orders from British
censors and performed or dictated by his editors at Sampson Low, cut
nearly a quarter of Verne's original text and made hundreds of
translation errors, sometimes dramatically changing the meaning of
Verne's original intent. Some of these bowdlerizations may have been
done for political reasons, such as Nemo's identity and the nationality
of the two warships he sinks, or the portraits of freedom fighters on
the wall of his cabin which originally included Daniel O'Connell.[4]
Nonetheless it became the "standard" English translation for more than
a hundred years, while other translations continued to draw from it €”
and its mistakes, especially the mistranslation of the title; the
French title actually means Twenty Thousand Leagues under the Seas.

A modern translation was produced in 1966 by Walter James Miller and
published by Washington Square Press.[5] Many of Mercier's changes were
addressed in the translator's preface, and most of Verne's text was
restored.

Many of the "sins" of Mercier were again corrected in a
from-the-ground-up re-examination of the sources and an entirely new
translation by Walter James Miller and Frederick Paul Walter between
1989 and 1991, published in 1993 by Naval Institute Press in a
"completely restored and annotated edition."[6] But, it has a new
error: in it the French word scaphandrier, which in this book means one
of Captain Nemo's divers in kit similar to an old-type heavy standard
diving suit but with an independent air supply, is everywhere wrongly
translated "frogman". F. P. Walter's own translation was published in
2009 with the title Twenty Thousand Leagues under the Seas (ISBN
978-1-904808-28-2)
===

You get the impression that other translations were based on the old
English text. You may have read a really screwed up version. A
translation of a translation. It would be interesting to
know, but I don't do Russian very well, only Babel-fish type stuff. I
know you are a bit busy right now with your Bridgeport project

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Ignoramus10537 wrote:

I bought a bunch of original Hardy Boys books on ebay. I loved Leagues
under the Sea myself when I was a kid.


Several of Jules Verne's books are on Project Gutenberg.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Jun 11, 4:57*pm, Leon Fisk wrote:
...

Well, I read it in Russian.

Hmm... I wonder if it was translated from the original French (good) or
they used the bum English version. Here is what the Wiki had to say
about this:
....
Leon Fisk

This Gutenberg English version:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/164/164-h/164-h.htm
agrees almost exactly with the French:
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/5097
at least for the first few pages I read.

The French reads more smoothly.

jsw