My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 14:24:42 -0500, Ignoramus967
wrote:

My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

Take hiim to a public library and introduce him to books. There is a
lot of good children's fiction. Enjoyable reading from good authors
will improve his English skills by osmosis, while being an enjoyable
activity. Summer is an excellent time to do this.

On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 14:24:42 -0500, Ignoramus967
wrote:

My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

English, as taught in school, IMHO is not an easy subject to get a
_very_ high mark in. The kid has to put forth a lot of effort to
figure out what the teacher wants to hear and to echo it, and even
then... I'm assuming it's dealing with interpreting novels and that
sort of thing. Actual use of language is improved by talking with
articulate adults and reading most anything at a reasonably high
level, but I doubt that's his limitation (I wouldn't call it a problem
with 92%). Girls of that age seem to do a lot better than boys. Math
and science have a lot less of that BS.

Being able to present people with what they want to hear (even if you
personally disagree) is a useful skill, provided you know when to turn
it off. I would suggest if any tutoring it should involve
examsmanship-- carefully making sure that the student notes down all
the hints that the teacher gives, and covers every point. Have a look
at his tests, he may be losing marks for things that can be very
easily improved (neatness or something like that).

On 2010-06-09, Don Foreman wrote:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 14:24:42 -0500, Ignoramus967
wrote:

My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

Take hiim to a public library and introduce him to books. There is a
lot of good children's fiction. Enjoyable reading from good authors
will improve his English skills by osmosis, while being an enjoyable
activity. Summer is an excellent time to do this.

Don, we'll go to a library tomorrow. Good idea. The issue is trying to
be on time returning them, but at this age this can finally be a
useful exercise in learning responsibility.

i

On 2010-06-09, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

English, as taught in school, IMHO is not an easy subject to get a
_very_ high mark in. The kid has to put forth a lot of effort to
figure out what the teacher wants to hear and to echo it, and even
then... I'm assuming it's dealing with interpreting novels and that
sort of thing. Actual use of language is improved by talking with
articulate adults and reading most anything at a reasonably high
level, but I doubt that's his limitation (I wouldn't call it a problem
with 92%). Girls of that age seem to do a lot better than boys. Math
and science have a lot less of that BS.


I am pretty sure that the scores we are discussing involve
standardized, multiple choice tests, so teacher's preferences are not
as importaant as, say, grading homework.

Being able to present people with what they want to hear (even if
you personally disagree) is a useful skill, provided you know when
to turn it off. I would suggest if any tutoring it should involve
examsmanship-- carefully making sure that the student notes down all
the hints that the teacher gives, and covers every point. Have a
look at his tests, he may be losing marks for things that can be
very easily improved (neatness or something like that).

I will try to learn this a little more, maybe I can get a copy of his
test.

Ignoramus967 wrote:

On 2010-06-09, Don Foreman wrote:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 14:24:42 -0500, Ignoramus967
wrote:

My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

Take hiim to a public library and introduce him to books. There is a
lot of good children's fiction. Enjoyable reading from good authors
will improve his English skills by osmosis, while being an enjoyable
activity. Summer is an excellent time to do this.

Don, we'll go to a library tomorrow. Good idea. The issue is trying to
be on time returning them, but at this age this can finally be a
useful exercise in learning responsibility.


See if your library has some availible as 'ebooks'. A lot of books
are availible that way, rather than in printed form. Also, their card
catalog should be availible online and show which branch has which books
on their shelves.

If you want any of the classics, try http://www.gutenberg.org. The
baen free library http://www.baen.com/library has some free science
fiction books, too.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Jun 9, 3:24*pm, Ignoramus967
wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

Iggy -

What, exactly, are you concerned about? Does your son have difficulty
expressing what's on his mind? Is it a spelling problem, a grammar
problem, a vocabulary problem or something else? Being in the 92nd
percentile doesn't mean that he got 8 of 100 questions wrong, it means
that, on average, 8 out of 100 kids had a higher score than he had. It
also means that 91 out of 100 kids had a lower score than his.

What in the world is so horrible about that? Good Gawd, the kid is
only nine years old. Give him a chance to grow. Encourage him to read.
Encourage him to write. Encourage him to converse. But most of all,
encourage him to be a nine year old.

If returning books to the library is going to be a problem, try a
second-hand store instead. You can usually get books for 50 cents or
so, and when you're done, just donate them back, or have a yard sale
or something. Locally, I have a Salvation Army and a Goodwill store,
each of which can pretty much be guaranteed to have a wide selection
of things worth reading.

And you never know when the thrift shop is going to have a jig borer
for twenty bucks ;-)

On 2010-06-09, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
See if your library has some availible as 'ebooks'. A lot of books
are availible that way, rather than in printed form. Also, their card
catalog should be availible online and show which branch has which books
on their shelves.

If you want any of the classics, try http://www.gutenberg.org. The
baen free library http://www.baen.com/library has some free science
fiction books, too.

I like the science fiction idea. SF books have better English than a
typical "diary of poop" kids' book. And SF can possibly appeal to his
imagination.

i

On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 15:15:54 -0500
Ignoramus967 wrote:

snip
Don, we'll go to a library tomorrow. Good idea. The issue is trying to
be on time returning them, but at this age this can finally be a
useful exercise in learning responsibility.

Try visiting some used book sales. It is always a hodgepodge, but you
can find stuff really cheap. Don't need to worry about returning or
damaging the books then. For some upcoming sales in your area see:

http://www.booksalefinder.com/IL.html

A lot of the libraries have ongoing sales too. Ask if they have a used
book sale area if/when you visit. Prices vary, anywhere from 25 cents
to $2-3 for most titles. The site I listed above quite often lists the
prices too. Don't get the idea that you will buy some old books and
resell them, make a killing either. Valuable books are pretty rare
nowadays. There are lots of other people looking and selling books.
Lots of old books are worth maybe a dollar or even less. Try to get
there a few minutes before the sale begins. The good stuff goes fast,
good is objective though, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". You
have to do a lot of browsing, they are usually only sorted by general
subject and that can even be a reach.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On 2010-06-09, rangerssuck wrote:
On Jun 9, 3:24?pm, Ignoramus967
wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

Iggy -

What, exactly, are you concerned about? Does your son have difficulty
expressing what's on his mind? Is it a spelling problem, a grammar
problem, a vocabulary problem or something else? Being in the 92nd
percentile doesn't mean that he got 8 of 100 questions wrong, it means
that, on average, 8 out of 100 kids had a higher score than he had. It
also means that 91 out of 100 kids had a lower score than his.

92nd percentile means that 11 out of 12 kids are doing worse than
him. But, I think that he has potential to be better than that.

What in the world is so horrible about that? Good Gawd, the kid is
only nine years old. Give him a chance to grow. Encourage him to read.
Encourage him to write. Encourage him to converse. But most of all,
encourage him to be a nine year old.

If returning books to the library is going to be a problem, try a
second-hand store instead. You can usually get books for 50 cents or
so, and when you're done, just donate them back, or have a yard sale
or something. Locally, I have a Salvation Army and a Goodwill store,
each of which can pretty much be guaranteed to have a wide selection
of things worth reading.

And you never know when the thrift shop is going to have a jig borer
for twenty bucks ;-)

I agree with most of what you are saying, and in my heart I believe
that we should use the library a lot and suffer and remember to return
those books.

i

On Jun 9, 3:33*pm, Ignoramus967
wrote:
On 2010-06-09, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

* *See if your library has some availible as 'ebooks'. *A lot of books
are availible that way, rather than in printed form. Also, their card
catalog should be availible online and show which branch has which books
on their shelves.

* If you want any of the classics, tryhttp://www.gutenberg.org. *The
baen free libraryhttp://www.baen.com/libraryhas some free science
fiction books, too.

I like the science fiction idea. SF books have better English than a
typical "diary of poop" kids' book. And SF can possibly appeal to his
imagination.

i

Iggy:

As I know you, you have the mind of an engineer. And I'm sure that
your son does as well. Math comes easy to us... it's not subjective,
as is English.

When I was in elementary school, while the other kids were studying
the "diary of poop" type books, I was studying Ohm's law. I found
that Science Fiction, when I wanted to read fiction, appealed to my
"engineering side". I'll bet your son will have that same experience.

Good luck,
_kevin

Ignoramus967 wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

I don't think you should do a thing about it. Your
son could be a great writer and still be marked down
for whatever the test creator decided was not above
average for his group. I remember coaching my daughter
on an writing assignment in 4th grade. She came up
with a delightful sentence or two and I remarked that
Steinbeck could not have said it better. The teacher
'corrected' the sentence to a more bland form.

We need people that carry over part of their ethic
style. Look what Joseph Conrad did. An incredible
novelist who didn't speak fluent English until he was
in his twenties.

Just my humble opinion...

On 2010-06-09, Jim Stewart wrote:
Ignoramus967 wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

I don't think you should do a thing about it. Your son could be a
great writer and still be marked down for whatever the test creator
decided was not above average for his group. I remember coaching my
daughter on an writing assignment in 4th grade. She came up with a
delightful sentence or two and I remarked that Steinbeck could not
have said it better. The teacher 'corrected' the sentence to a more
bland form.

We need people that carry over part of their ethic style. Look what
Joseph Conrad did. An incredible novelist who didn't speak fluent
English until he was in his twenties.

I think that going to a library more often, discussing books etc,
should not hurt too much.

i

On 06/09/2010 12:24 PM, Ignoramus967 wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

Well, there you go. You only had one year for your English skills to
degrade in the presence of all us native speakers, while your kid's been
here for 9!

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

I'm really big on letting the educators be anxious about a kids
progress, and letting the kid be a kid. I'm not at all a fan of huge
testing efforts, because all the important stuff is hard to test for,
and all the tests that can be taught to checks for trivial stuff.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

Push him hard enough and he'll never learn!

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

On 06/09/2010 01:15 PM, Ignoramus967 wrote:
On 2010-06-09, Don wrote:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 14:24:42 -0500, Ignoramus967
wrote:

My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

Take hiim to a public library and introduce him to books. There is a
lot of good children's fiction. Enjoyable reading from good authors
will improve his English skills by osmosis, while being an enjoyable
activity. Summer is an excellent time to do this.

Don, we'll go to a library tomorrow. Good idea. The issue is trying to
be on time returning them, but at this age this can finally be a
useful exercise in learning responsibility.

Don't make him worry about that -- you worry about that. And remember
that if your library is like the ones I've been to, you have to be
tremendously overdue before you pay for even a fraction of the price of
the book.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

Ignoramus967 wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i


"To teach is to learn".

Maybe you could have him teach you?

Not implying anything about your command of the language there, ig.
But it IS a good tactic.



--

Richard Lamb

I like the science fiction idea. SF books have better English than a
typical "diary of poop" kids' book. And SF can possibly appeal to his
imagination.

i
Sticking with SF, 9 is maybe just a shade too young, but Terry Pratchett
comes up with extraordinary word games, puns, and turns of phrase that are
hard to describe (can't think of an example for the moment). Structurally,
they are quite simple fantasy novels, and perfectly "clean", so suitable for
the age. They also tend to have a slightly more political or allegorical
message for the older reader.

An old friend of mine used to work with him when he was a local press
officer in the UK nuclear industry. He used to say his job was to say "Leak?
What leak? Oh, *that* leak."

His serious followers are a bit like Trekkies, but they tend to have several
degrees.

Oh, and when he is a bit older introduce him to Norman Mailer. A bit of an
odd bloke, but to my (British) mind, one of the best craftsmen and stylists
of modern English. But I agree with other posters, don't push it. Give him
the opportunity and let him take it from there.

On 2010-06-09, Steve Ackman wrote:
In , on Wed, 09 Jun 2010
14:24:42 -0500, Ignoramus967, lid wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

When I was 9, I was reading all the Hardy Boys
mysteries. Matter of fact, during the summer, I'd
read a couple a day. See if he likes those.

For grammar, you can't beat sentence diagramming.
ISTR first seeing it around 11.


I love both suggestions. I think that he may have read some hardy boys
books (secrets of the old mill comes to mind, at first I thought it
was related to milling machines). I will explore this hardy book
question today.

i

On 2010-06-09, cavelamb wrote:
Ignoramus967 wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i


"To teach is to learn".

Maybe you could have him teach you?

Not implying anything about your command of the language there, ig.
But it IS a good tactic.

I actually agree. I already use him to teach me how to pronounce
words.

i

On Jun 9, 4:53*pm, Ignoramus967
wrote:
On 2010-06-09, rangerssuck wrote:





On Jun 9, 3:24?pm, Ignoramus967
wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

Iggy -

What, exactly, are you concerned about? Does your son have difficulty
expressing what's on his mind? Is it a spelling problem, a grammar
problem, a vocabulary problem or something else? Being in the 92nd
percentile doesn't mean that he got 8 of 100 questions wrong, it means
that, on average, 8 out of 100 kids had a higher score than he had. It
also means that 91 out of 100 kids had a lower score than his.

92nd percentile means that 11 out of 12 kids are doing worse than
him. But, I think that he has potential to be better than that.

What in the world is so horrible about that? Good Gawd, the kid is
only nine years old. Give him a chance to grow. Encourage him to read.
Encourage him to write. Encourage him to converse. But most of all,
encourage him to be a nine year old.

If returning books to the library is going to be a problem, try a
second-hand store instead. You can usually get books for 50 cents or
so, and when you're done, just donate them back, or have a yard sale
or something. Locally, I have a Salvation Army and a Goodwill store,
each of which can pretty much be guaranteed to have a wide selection
of things worth reading.

And you never know when the thrift shop is going to have a jig borer
for twenty bucks ;-)

I agree with most of what you are saying, and in my heart I believe
that we should use the library a lot and suffer and remember to return
those books.

i

Perhaps he does have the potential to do better, but (probably) the
worst thing you can do is push him. You can encourage him, of course,
but to push him somewhere he doesn't want to go is almost certainly
going to sour him on reading (and perhaps on learning in general) for
a long time to come.

Our local public library just had its budget slashed by over $200K for
next year. I've always considered my fines more of a donation than a
payment of a fee. It's going to take a lot of late returns to make up
the shortfall.

Ignoramus967 wrote:

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.


Reading will help a lot. I read lots of books when I was a kid.

I took the SAT test in 1974 or 5 when 750/750 was the limit. I managed a 610 verbal, 590
math without studying for the test. Not stellar results but since I really didn't like
English classes and Trig was the highest level course I'd taken in high school, I don't
think I did terribly bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#194...ciated_changes

I could have sworn my results had me in the 90+ percentile range but the wiki page says I
was in the 78 percentile. Maybe that 90+ was for students in my high school.

Words pop in to my head and I have to look them up before using them just to make sure I
know the sense of the word. That is from reading all sorts of books as a youngster at the
library as a solution to both my curiousity and a mental refuge from a home life that had
issues.

Most of my mental definitions of words are formed by the context in which I've read a word
used.

As the PSA goes, "Reading is fundamental".

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Ignoramus967 wrote:

If you want any of the classics, try http://www.gutenberg.org. The
baen free library http://www.baen.com/library has some free science
fiction books, too.

I like the science fiction idea. SF books have better English than a
typical "diary of poop" kids' book. And SF can possibly appeal to his
imagination.


Scifi has some incredibly good writers. I didn't spend all my time in the 62X section of
the library as a kid.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On 06/09/2010 01:17 PM, Ignoramus967 wrote:
On 2010-06-09, Spehro wrote:

English, as taught in school, IMHO is not an easy subject to get a
_very_ high mark in. The kid has to put forth a lot of effort to
figure out what the teacher wants to hear and to echo it, and even
then... I'm assuming it's dealing with interpreting novels and that
sort of thing. Actual use of language is improved by talking with
articulate adults and reading most anything at a reasonably high
level, but I doubt that's his limitation (I wouldn't call it a problem
with 92%). Girls of that age seem to do a lot better than boys. Math
and science have a lot less of that BS.


I am pretty sure that the scores we are discussing involve
standardized, multiple choice tests, so teacher's preferences are not
as importaant as, say, grading homework.

Then it's the preference of a committee. Oh joy.

Being able to present people with what they want to hear (even if
you personally disagree) is a useful skill, provided you know when
to turn it off. I would suggest if any tutoring it should involve
examsmanship-- carefully making sure that the student notes down all
the hints that the teacher gives, and covers every point. Have a
look at his tests, he may be losing marks for things that can be
very easily improved (neatness or something like that).

I will try to learn this a little more, maybe I can get a copy of his
test.

Do. Try not to get too worked up when you see it.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

On 2010-06-09, Wes wrote:
Ignoramus967 wrote:

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.


Reading will help a lot. I read lots of books when I was a kid.

I took the SAT test in 1974 or 5 when 750/750 was the limit. I managed a 610 verbal, 590
math without studying for the test. Not stellar results but since I really didn't like
English classes and Trig was the highest level course I'd taken in high school, I don't
think I did terribly bad.

This is a very good score.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#194...ciated_changes

I could have sworn my results had me in the 90+ percentile range but the wiki page says I
was in the 78 percentile. Maybe that 90+ was for students in my high school.

Words pop in to my head and I have to look them up before using them
just to make sure I know the sense of the word. That is from
reading all sorts of books as a youngster at the library as a
solution to both my curiousity and a mental refuge from a home life
that had issues.

Most of my mental definitions of words are formed by the context in which I've read a word
used.

As the PSA goes, "Reading is fundamental".

I think so too. We read so much from reading, though we may not
remember where we learned something.

i

"Ignoramus967" wrote in message
...
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

First off I would not worry too much about the current verbal scores, the
top 8% is pretty good.

But with a 10 year old that just finished the 4th grade with an award for
reading skills what we did was to foster their love of reading from a very
young age. As an example every night we would read them (He has a twin
sister.)two books allowing them to choose the titles. After I got tired of
the same books over and over I would look to diversify things a bit. I
started with the atlas of the United States and allowed them to each pick a
state. I would then in my own corny accent read them each states
description, famous people and all of the other information. I would pay
special attention to any question they would ask and parlay that into other
bedtime reading. As an example my daughter once asked why was Jack London
famous? that started stories by Jack London.

When my kids entered kindergarten, the exit standards were that they would
know their shapes and colors, count to 30 etc. My kids not only knew that,
but also could tell you each of the state capitols and could count to 100 by
ones, twos fives and tens.

We would also go out for some ice cream and I would work on math with them
by explaining that if they understood addition then they already understood
multiplication showing them how they could figure out any multiplication
problem just by understanding that the problem was just a step up from the
addition.

While I succeeded in allowing my son to have a really good accuracy in
solving his math problems at school, he has refused to memorize his
multiplication tables so his computation speed is not where it should be.

I suspect that each person has some slightly different way of thinking about
concepts. If your son does well in math, then he will do well in language
as math is a language.

The library is a great thing to get the kid to learn to love. Once they get
their nose into books they never stop.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

Ignoramus967 wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

My first try hasn't shown up yet, so I'll try again.
It said...


"To teach is to learn".

Have him teach you.
Not that there is anything wrong with your command of the language, ig.
But it is a good tactic.

Someone mentioned diagramming sentences.
That would be an excellent place to start.


--

Richard Lamb

Richard, your post showed up and I posted a reply.

i

On 2010-06-10, cavelamb wrote:
Ignoramus967 wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

My first try hasn't shown up yet, so I'll try again.
It said...


"To teach is to learn".

Have him teach you.
Not that there is anything wrong with your command of the language, ig.
But it is a good tactic.

Someone mentioned diagramming sentences.
That would be an excellent place to start.

"Ignoramus967" wrote in message
...
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

Iggy, just another thought for you. Focus on your son's strengths. Anybody
enjoys becoming excellent at what they are already good at. if he can get a
99% on math, i bet he can understand the function of encoders, how a servo
is like a dc motor, etc. etc. Great engineers are made before they are
teenagers. Not to mention the thrill of working along side dad. I made a
point of doing this with my son starting when he was five. We still work
together 10 or more hours a week. He's 27.

My 2 cents. 92% is good enough

karl

"Ignoramus967" wrote in message
...
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

What did they measure? Grammar, comprehension, syntax, vocabulary, spelling,
or what?

See if you can get a copy of what they tested. There's a big difference in
the way to teach parts of speech versus reading comprehension.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ignoramus967" wrote in message
...
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank
is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on
GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in
the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes
to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good
books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club,
group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find
some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in
such
matters.

i

I:

You have to be an example and make the process of learning fun.
Read a book of mutual interest together. Discuss it at or after the
dinner table.
Compare interpretations of what you read. Review contending
editiorials on some
contentious theory or historical event. Any larger library will have
book clubs
where a group reads and has meetings to exchange views on the work,
often resulting
in the suggestion of other notable efforts in the topical area. That
is an organized and
social way that sets deadlines and expectations for a participant like
your son to
adhere to which make for important lessons on structuring.

What collecting, activity or geographic fascinations does he have?
There will surely be
excellent offerings in popular literature for one, a ranging scope of
volumes in the second
and a plethora of travel guides, botanical, ethnographic, zoological
and geological surveys
in the last category for you to both savor. And if you choose to study
some intriguing, accessible
terrain, try to follow that with weekend trips or vacation forays to
employ what you've
absorbed and resolve questions that will engender further reading.

Everyone here loves tools, which--on a conceptual and descriptive
level--makes for a grand definition
of words. The more words you know, the more you can understand and the
more widely
you can think, pivoting on the distinctions words establish that you
otherwise may not have chanced
on. Explain it to him that way. In simple proof of the peril aversion
of language invites, tell him what
happens to the man who blithely signs a contract he can't read.
Ignorance of terms has practical,
often dire, consequences.

Get the boy books on a cd. Offer him an mp3 player as an award to some
defined level of progress and
incentive to more. If he likes science plenty of project books exist
which will serve as your interactive
guide to some fascinating result. Works on crystal growing spring to
mind here.

As your tongue is native to another language, do some translations
with him into English using a
bilingual dictionary. Intuitions on grammar become an inevitable
partner to that. Compare the words for the same
concept or thing in both languages. Get a dictionary of English word
roots and learn the roots together,
moving on to demonstration that many words can be at least
approximately decoded or predictably
figured out with knowledge of the building blocks involved. That
should be a trick which will win recognition
in class.

Libraries are, indeed, temples of knowledge. But it is nice for a
child to claim his own share of the
the good within them. Used books are cheap. Book-of -the-month clubs
must surely still exist where
a kid has the distinctive anticipation of getting a book just for him,
addressed just to him like a real
adult coming to the house on a marked date.

You've had some fine suggestions from everybody, not the least of
which is that a kid is a kid. Again,
we return to the paramount place of "fun". Encourage these pursuits as
a game, contest or exploration and
sooner than later he will find the light for them in himself.

Anyway, something for you to mull along with congratulations on your
obvious concern for your son.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

"Wes" wrote in message
...
Ignoramus967 wrote:

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.


Reading will help a lot. I read lots of books when I was a kid.

I took the SAT test in 1974 or 5 when 750/750 was the limit.

I'm curious, Wes. Where did you hear that the max scores in '74 or '75 were
750/750? I've never heard this. I thought that they were always 800/800,
until the recent revision of the system into three parts.

--
Ed Huntress

Iggy,

It is apparent you are justifiably proud of your son. From what I've read over the years on RCM he
has a dad to be proud of. Don't worry much about percentiles. Ninety-two in one category is
probably a precursor to some other fantastic numbers in categories you aren't even aware of yet.
Push him only with Love. He will find his own path in his own time.

Bob Swinney

"Ignoramus967" wrote in message
...
On 2010-06-09, cavelamb wrote:
Ignoramus967 wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i


"To teach is to learn".

Maybe you could have him teach you?

Not implying anything about your command of the language there, ig.
But it IS a good tactic.

I actually agree. I already use him to teach me how to pronounce
words.

i

"Ignoramus967" wrote in message
...
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

Make an appointment with his English teacher and get his/her ideas. Who
better to advise?

Buerste wrote:
wrote in message
...
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

Make an appointment with his English teacher and get his/her ideas. Who
better to advise?






Since you are in Chicago, a bribe to the teacher may be in order to
boost up that percentage.


John

On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 15:15:54 -0500, Ignoramus967
wrote:

On 2010-06-09, Don Foreman wrote:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 14:24:42 -0500, Ignoramus967
wrote:

My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

Take hiim to a public library and introduce him to books. There is a
lot of good children's fiction. Enjoyable reading from good authors
will improve his English skills by osmosis, while being an enjoyable
activity. Summer is an excellent time to do this.

Don, we'll go to a library tomorrow. Good idea. The issue is trying to
be on time returning them, but at this age this can finally be a
useful exercise in learning responsibility.

Age 9 is certainly old enough for that. I was a regular patron of the
public library at that age, with no supervision. I had my own library
card. The library was about six blocks from our house, a very easy
walk.

On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 15:33:38 -0500, Ignoramus967
wrote:

On 2010-06-09, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
See if your library has some availible as 'ebooks'. A lot of books
are availible that way, rather than in printed form. Also, their card
catalog should be availible online and show which branch has which books
on their shelves.

If you want any of the classics, try http://www.gutenberg.org. The
baen free library http://www.baen.com/library has some free science
fiction books, too.

I like the science fiction idea. SF books have better English than a
typical "diary of poop" kids' book. And SF can possibly appeal to his
imagination.

i

Sci Fi is good, but there are also some very good adventure stories
for boys. Let him browse and discover for himself.

On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 15:53:40 -0500, Ignoramus967
wrote:



I agree with most of what you are saying, and in my heart I believe
that we should use the library a lot and suffer and remember to return
those books.

i

In our library system it is possible to renew books online. That may
well be true of your system as well.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 15:33:38 -0500, Ignoramus967
wrote:

On 2010-06-09, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
See if your library has some availible as 'ebooks'. A lot of books
are availible that way, rather than in printed form. Also, their card
catalog should be availible online and show which branch has which books
on their shelves.

If you want any of the classics, try http://www.gutenberg.org. The
baen free library http://www.baen.com/library has some free science
fiction books, too.
I like the science fiction idea. SF books have better English than a
typical "diary of poop" kids' book. And SF can possibly appeal to his
imagination.

i

Sci Fi is good, but there are also some very good adventure stories
for boys. Let him browse and discover for himself.

Or?

Just go straight to Larry Niven / Jerry Pournelle

Lucifer's Hammer or The Mote in God's Eye.
(or the Man-Kizn Wars series of short stories and novellas)
Not just good scfi, but good literature as well.

Also highly recommended:
Patrick O'Brian's 21 volume series of Aubrey/Maturin
in the days of Iron Men and Wooden Ships.
The movie Master and Commander was taken from these.

Dewey Lambden also did a series in this genre and is excellent
although hard to find.

I blame that, like O'Brian's work, on centralized buyers.
It took them 20 years to figure out what shelf to put O'Brian on.
Is it Adverture?, Historical Fiction?, Literature?

Maybe in another 20 we'll see Lambden on the shelves too.



--

Richard Lamb

On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 20:45:38 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Ignoramus967 wrote:
My 9 year old got his report card scores today. His percentile rank is
at 99% in math, but only 92% in English.

I think that he can do better than than on English. I got 90% on GMAT
verbal part, after just one year of living here, and he's lived in the
US for 9 years, out of which he spoke English for 6 years.

My question is how do we improve his English, given his age of 9. My
first thought is that he needs to just find something that he likes to
read about and read a lot more. I think that simply reading good books
(good as in, giving some examples of good use of the language) is
already a big help.

My second thought is maybe he just needs to find some fun club, group,
discussion forum, theater, tutor or something like that that would
somehow make him more interested in learning English. He has a math
tutor who tries to keep him interested in math, maybe we can find some
equivalent of that for English.

I never studied English formally, so I am not very experienced in such
matters.

i

My first try hasn't shown up yet, so I'll try again.
It said...


"To teach is to learn".

Have him teach you.
Not that there is anything wrong with your command of the language, ig.
But it is a good tactic.

Someone mentioned diagramming sentences.
That would be an excellent place to start.

I think that's a horrible place to start!
Let that formality and discipline happen at school if it happens at
all.

There is much more to language than structure and rules. Language is
about communication. The best way to learn language is to be exposed
to many good examples of that language well used. It is more likely
to "connect" if reading well-written material becomes an enjoyable way
to spend liesure time. I define "well-written" here as material
that communicates effectively, engages the reader. Most novels are
fraught with grammatical violations. These violations are not usually
accidental; editors are very good at catching grammatial gaffes. They
are used for emphasis or effect or to be colloquial. Davy Crockett
probably said "ain't" now and then, and (horrors) may have even
regarded prepositions as acceptable words to end sentences with...