The thing that scares me the most in my reloading endeavors is a squib. To
visually check every case for the proper amount of powder is inconvenient
and slow. (but better than two in the tube or a hand grenade) I load
/shoot about 1k/month. So, I'm going to mount a small camera that will
display a real-time video that is easy to see from my position operating the
press. I have a five station progressive press and there are a few
powder-check dies available that work very well, but I don't have a station
to spare between the powder dump and the bullet seating. I use a separate
crimp die after the bullet seating. (I did start to design an eight station
press but how obsessive CAN I get?) Get just ONE squib and you'll never
shoot the same, it'll always be in the back of your mind. Thankfully, I've
never had a double-charge!

I can mount the camera on the ram so it's focus it constant or I can mount
it to the press if the camera will auto focus fast enough to be useful.
Ideally, the camera would have it's own LED lighting source.

Any recommendations on a camera or refinement of my idea?

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press? Again, a powder-check die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.

On May 17, 3:37*am, "Buerste" wrote:
...

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press? *Again, a powder-check die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.

How does the food packaging industry do this?

jsw

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On May 17, 3:37 am, "Buerste" wrote:
...

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press? Again, a powder-check die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.

How does the food packaging industry do this?

jsw

Weight.

--
Steve W.
(\___/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

As an old computer video guy (3-D machine or robot vision), I'd
suggest a transparent drop tube on your powder measure. Watch each
powder drop. Sinclair http://www.sinclairintl.com/ sells them and
adapters for most powder measures. Works super... Joel in Florida
rust central
==============
On May 17, 3:37*am, "Buerste" wrote:
The thing that scares me the most in my reloading endeavors is a squib. *To
visually check every case for the proper amount of powder is inconvenient
and slow.

Many industries are utilizing machine vision. A check point may have 6 or
more small cameras to image a part or measure of volume in a container.

I believe the actual go/no go (pass-fail) is done by the software.

I don't fully understand the capability of using a certain amount of pixels
in a CMOS imaging device, but someone here has implemented an imaging device
for a measuring or comparator device.. I forget who it was.

There are a lot of surplus RFE removed from equipment industrial machine
vision components for sale, many on eBay.
One problem with the surplus odds 'n ends is getting good cables that fit
the uncommon connectors on industrial video components. Not BNC, but various
miniature Hirose, JAE, LEMO and other high quality connectors on high
quality Japanese cables.

I dunno what Tom's particular situation would require, but if it's a matter
of the amount of travel a part makes, opto interrupters could probably
handle that.

--
WB
..........


"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On May 17, 3:37 am, "Buerste" wrote:
...

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and
instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press? Again, a powder-check die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.

How does the food packaging industry do this?

jsw

"Steve W." wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On May 17, 3:37 am, "Buerste" wrote:
...

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press? Again, a powder-check die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.

How does the food packaging industry do this?

jsw

Weight.

Yes. It should be a lot easier to setup to weigh each completed round
automatically and alarm on out of tolerance ones, even log all the
weights.

"Pete C." fired this volley in news:4bf1475d$0
:

Yes. It should be a lot easier to setup to weigh each completed round
automatically and alarm on out of tolerance ones, even log all the
weights.


You'll have to tare the weight of the empty casing first. Even minor
variations due to sizing and trimming can affect your total cartridge
weight.

Another weigh (pun) to do this is to measure the mass of the cartridge,
first empty, then with the powder load. A clamping collar at the neck of
the cartridge attached to a piezo-electric transducer can determine the
resonant frequency of the whole assembly with the empty, then re-tune
after filling to determine pretty precisely the mass of powder added.

LLoyd

On Mon, 17 May 2010 03:37:56 -0400, "Buerste"
wrote:

The thing that scares me the most in my reloading endeavors is a squib. To
visually check every case for the proper amount of powder is inconvenient
and slow. (but better than two in the tube or a hand grenade) I load
/shoot about 1k/month. So, I'm going to mount a small camera that will
display a real-time video that is easy to see from my position operating the
press. I have a five station progressive press and there are a few
powder-check dies available that work very well, but I don't have a station
to spare between the powder dump and the bullet seating. I use a separate
crimp die after the bullet seating. (I did start to design an eight station
press but how obsessive CAN I get?) Get just ONE squib and you'll never
shoot the same, it'll always be in the back of your mind. Thankfully, I've
never had a double-charge!

I can mount the camera on the ram so it's focus it constant or I can mount
it to the press if the camera will auto focus fast enough to be useful.
Ideally, the camera would have it's own LED lighting source.

Any recommendations on a camera or refinement of my idea?

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press? Again, a powder-check die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.


Assuming that you use "squib" to mean a load with less then the
correct amount of powder, this was common when loading shotgun
shells. Probably because many people had progressive machines for
shotgun shells but used a single station press for anything else.

The "problem" was so common that I have shot on Skeet ranges that had
a ramrod hanging on both the high and low house.

But being less facetious, the problem was almost always that the
powder ran out and a few primed cases were loaded without powder and
firing them would blow the wad and shot about half way up the barrel.
If you shot a second round you had an instant short barrel gun :-)

In reference to your camera idea I have seen an article about how to
rig a security camera and compare each frame with the previous to
detect entry. the same sort of thing would certainly work for checking
powder levels.

I'll look around tomorrow and see whether I can locate the article and
perhaps I can give you a reference to how it was done.

John B. Slocomb
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)

On May 17, 1:37*am, "Buerste" wrote:
The thing that scares me the most in my reloading endeavors is a squib. *To
visually check every case for the proper amount of powder is inconvenient
and slow. *(but better than two in the tube or a hand grenade) *I load
/shoot about 1k/month. *So, I'm going to mount a small camera that will
display a real-time video that is easy to see from my position operating the
press. *I have a five station progressive press and there are a few
powder-check dies available that work very well, but I don't have a station
to spare between the powder dump and the bullet seating. *I use a separate
crimp die after the bullet seating. (I did start to design an eight station
press but how obsessive CAN I get?) *Get just ONE squib and you'll never
shoot the same, it'll always be in the back of your mind. *Thankfully, I've
never had a double-charge!

I can mount the camera on the ram so it's focus it constant or I can mount
it to the press if the camera will auto focus fast enough to be useful.
Ideally, the camera would have it's own LED lighting source.

Any recommendations on a camera or refinement of my idea?

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press? *Again, a powder-check die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.

A simpler method is already out there, an additional die body with a
movable rod in it. Rod checks powder level. Google up "powder-level
check" or "powder check die". Sometimes high-tech isn't the best.

To the other poster that asked, yes, a "squib" is a round with little
or no powder in it, invariably sticks the bullet in the bore. The
classic sequence is a no-charge round followed by a double-charged
round in rapid fire, followed by an orbiting revolver top strap.
Mostly happens with dense powders and light target charges and on semi-
progressive and progressive tools. The tools have been improved over
past units, it's harder to half-stroke and advance the case without
getting a powder charge, but CAN happen. One of those deals where you
need your eyes on the tool, not on a screen.

Stan

Buerste wrote:

The thing that scares me the most in my reloading endeavors is a squib. To
visually check every case for the proper amount of powder is inconvenient
and slow. (but better than two in the tube or a hand grenade) I load
/shoot about 1k/month. So, I'm going to mount a small camera that will
display a real-time video that is easy to see from my position operating the
press. I have a five station progressive press and there are a few
powder-check dies available that work very well, but I don't have a station
to spare between the powder dump and the bullet seating. I use a separate
crimp die after the bullet seating. (I did start to design an eight station
press but how obsessive CAN I get?) Get just ONE squib and you'll never
shoot the same, it'll always be in the back of your mind. Thankfully, I've
never had a double-charge!

I can mount the camera on the ram so it's focus it constant or I can mount
it to the press if the camera will auto focus fast enough to be useful.
Ideally, the camera would have it's own LED lighting source.

Any recommendations on a camera or refinement of my idea?

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press? Again, a powder-check die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.


Have you looked at a USB Microscope?

http://www.google.com/search?q=usb+microscope&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Mon, 17 May 2010 09:42:41 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Pete C." [wrote]:

Yes. It should be a lot easier to setup to weigh each completed round
automatically and alarm on out of tolerance ones, even log all the
weights.

You'll have to tare the weight of the empty casing first. Even minor
variations due to sizing and trimming can affect your total cartridge
weight.

Another weigh (pun) to do this is to measure the mass of the cartridge,
first empty, then with the powder load. A clamping collar at the neck
of the cartridge attached to a piezo-electric transducer can determine
the resonant frequency of the whole assembly with the empty, then
re-tune after filling to determine pretty precisely the mass of powder
added.

It seems like either of those ideas would need an extra station
or two, which Tom wants to avoid using since all the stations of
his five station progressive press already are busy; otherwise he
would use a powder-check die, like he mentioned, and as Stan also
suggested in his post, for some reason, just after quoting Tom's
post that said, "a powder-check die would do just that but I would
not be able to use my bullet feeder or my separate crimp die".

It might be practical to mount an ultrasonic distance transducer
looking down into the cartridge, instead of a webcam. This would
probably be good enough to distinguish no-powder from powder. Of
course accurately knowing how much powder would be a good thing,
but he apparently has loaded thousands of rounds without needing
to measure it for each one, and just wants to make low-powder loads
much less likely.

Measuring the cavity resonance frequency (with a tiny speaker
and microphone) would be another alternative. Of course not
as accurate as the clamp-on piezoelectric transducer Lloyd
suggests, but probably good enough and wouldn't use up a
station.

Would it be practical to weigh each round after it's done? I
don't recall what cartridge Tom is loading, but presumably the
weight difference between powder/no-powder would be a percent
or more (a few grains out of a few hundred), which ought to be
easy to detect, unless the brass varies by that much.
Of course, if the rounds were weighed in the same order that
they come off the press, it would be even more likely that
the "classic sequence" Stan mentioned, a no-charge round
followed by a double-charged round, could be detected.

--
jiw

"James Waldby" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 May 2010 09:42:41 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Pete C." [wrote]:

Yes. It should be a lot easier to setup to weigh each completed round
automatically and alarm on out of tolerance ones, even log all the
weights.

You'll have to tare the weight of the empty casing first. Even minor
variations due to sizing and trimming can affect your total cartridge
weight.

Another weigh (pun) to do this is to measure the mass of the cartridge,
first empty, then with the powder load. A clamping collar at the neck
of the cartridge attached to a piezo-electric transducer can determine
the resonant frequency of the whole assembly with the empty, then
re-tune after filling to determine pretty precisely the mass of powder
added.

It seems like either of those ideas would need an extra station
or two, which Tom wants to avoid using since all the stations of
his five station progressive press already are busy; otherwise he
would use a powder-check die, like he mentioned, and as Stan also
suggested in his post, for some reason, just after quoting Tom's
post that said, "a powder-check die would do just that but I would
not be able to use my bullet feeder or my separate crimp die".

It might be practical to mount an ultrasonic distance transducer
looking down into the cartridge, instead of a webcam. This would
probably be good enough to distinguish no-powder from powder. Of
course accurately knowing how much powder would be a good thing,
but he apparently has loaded thousands of rounds without needing
to measure it for each one, and just wants to make low-powder loads
much less likely.

Measuring the cavity resonance frequency (with a tiny speaker
and microphone) would be another alternative. Of course not
as accurate as the clamp-on piezoelectric transducer Lloyd
suggests, but probably good enough and wouldn't use up a
station.

Would it be practical to weigh each round after it's done? I
don't recall what cartridge Tom is loading, but presumably the
weight difference between powder/no-powder would be a percent
or more (a few grains out of a few hundred), which ought to be
easy to detect, unless the brass varies by that much.
Of course, if the rounds were weighed in the same order that
they come off the press, it would be even more likely that
the "classic sequence" Stan mentioned, a no-charge round
followed by a double-charged round, could be detected.

--
jiw

I mostly load .38 but followed closely by .45 then 9mm. Unfortunately, my
sweet load is 2.7 grains of 700x which is not a bulky powder and my cast
bullets vary by more than that, cases aren't much better as I use mixed
headstamps with questionable pedigree. I use the .38s in a .357 Smith that
would handle a double load. The auto loaders scare me the most.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Buerste wrote:

The thing that scares me the most in my reloading endeavors is a squib.
To
visually check every case for the proper amount of powder is inconvenient
and slow. (but better than two in the tube or a hand grenade) I load
/shoot about 1k/month. So, I'm going to mount a small camera that will
display a real-time video that is easy to see from my position operating
the
press. I have a five station progressive press and there are a few
powder-check dies available that work very well, but I don't have a
station
to spare between the powder dump and the bullet seating. I use a
separate
crimp die after the bullet seating. (I did start to design an eight
station
press but how obsessive CAN I get?) Get just ONE squib and you'll never
shoot the same, it'll always be in the back of your mind. Thankfully,
I've
never had a double-charge!

I can mount the camera on the ram so it's focus it constant or I can
mount
it to the press if the camera will auto focus fast enough to be useful.
Ideally, the camera would have it's own LED lighting source.

Any recommendations on a camera or refinement of my idea?

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and
instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press? Again, a powder-check
die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.


Have you looked at a USB Microscope?

http://www.google.com/search?q=usb+microscope&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

I got one, it won't focus any farther than about 2". I need at least 4"-6".
I DO like the scope but It won't do it. Too bad, it has two levels of LED
lighting in a ring config.

Buerste wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Buerste wrote:

The thing that scares me the most in my reloading endeavors is a squib.
To
visually check every case for the proper amount of powder is inconvenient
and slow. (but better than two in the tube or a hand grenade) I load
/shoot about 1k/month. So, I'm going to mount a small camera that will
display a real-time video that is easy to see from my position operating
the
press. I have a five station progressive press and there are a few
powder-check dies available that work very well, but I don't have a
station
to spare between the powder dump and the bullet seating. I use a
separate
crimp die after the bullet seating. (I did start to design an eight
station
press but how obsessive CAN I get?) Get just ONE squib and you'll never
shoot the same, it'll always be in the back of your mind. Thankfully,
I've
never had a double-charge!

I can mount the camera on the ram so it's focus it constant or I can
mount
it to the press if the camera will auto focus fast enough to be useful.
Ideally, the camera would have it's own LED lighting source.

Any recommendations on a camera or refinement of my idea?

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and
instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press? Again, a powder-check
die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.


Have you looked at a USB Microscope?

http://www.google.com/search?q=usb+microscope&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a

I got one, it won't focus any farther than about 2". I need at least 4"-6".
I DO like the scope but It won't do it. Too bad, it has two levels of LED
lighting in a ring config.


Different models have different focal length, but the sellers rarely
post the full specs.

http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3565514 has NTSC
output for $19.98. It is a spherical design, and runs on AA batteries
in a separate box. It's a toy, but could have some use around a shop or
production floor.

The only problem I can see is that they recommend that the user be
eight, or older. I suppose you could lie... ;-)



--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

"Buerste" wrote in
:


"James Waldby" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 May 2010 09:42:41 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Pete C." [wrote]:

Yes. It should be a lot easier to setup to weigh each completed
round automatically and alarm on out of tolerance ones, even log
all the weights.

You'll have to tare the weight of the empty casing first. Even
minor variations due to sizing and trimming can affect your total
cartridge weight.

Another weigh (pun) to do this is to measure the mass of the
cartridge, first empty, then with the powder load. A clamping
collar at the neck of the cartridge attached to a piezo-electric
transducer can determine the resonant frequency of the whole
assembly with the empty, then re-tune after filling to determine
pretty precisely the mass of powder added.

It seems like either of those ideas would need an extra station
or two, which Tom wants to avoid using since all the stations of
his five station progressive press already are busy; otherwise he
would use a powder-check die, like he mentioned, and as Stan also
suggested in his post, for some reason, just after quoting Tom's
post that said, "a powder-check die would do just that but I would
not be able to use my bullet feeder or my separate crimp die".

It might be practical to mount an ultrasonic distance transducer
looking down into the cartridge, instead of a webcam. This would
probably be good enough to distinguish no-powder from powder. Of
course accurately knowing how much powder would be a good thing,
but he apparently has loaded thousands of rounds without needing
to measure it for each one, and just wants to make low-powder loads
much less likely.

Measuring the cavity resonance frequency (with a tiny speaker
and microphone) would be another alternative. Of course not
as accurate as the clamp-on piezoelectric transducer Lloyd
suggests, but probably good enough and wouldn't use up a
station.

Would it be practical to weigh each round after it's done? I
don't recall what cartridge Tom is loading, but presumably the
weight difference between powder/no-powder would be a percent
or more (a few grains out of a few hundred), which ought to be
easy to detect, unless the brass varies by that much.
Of course, if the rounds were weighed in the same order that
they come off the press, it would be even more likely that
the "classic sequence" Stan mentioned, a no-charge round
followed by a double-charged round, could be detected.

--
jiw

I mostly load .38 but followed closely by .45 then 9mm.
Unfortunately, my sweet load is 2.7 grains of 700x which is not a
bulky powder and my cast bullets vary by more than that, cases aren't
much better as I use mixed headstamps with questionable pedigree. I
use the .38s in a .357 Smith that would handle a double load. The
auto loaders scare me the most.

I have had a squib in 223, but the neck was tight enough that the bullet
stayed put (thank goodness). With rifle cartridges, the powder charge is
big enough that an empty is easy to find by weight. In addition to
adding an extra inspection step, I can weigh small sets of cartridges &
tell if anything is amiss.

I've got a new Dillon 650 press with a powder level checker. I will feel
much better once I get that up & running.

Doug White

"Buerste" wrote in
:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Buerste wrote:

The thing that scares me the most in my reloading endeavors is a
squib. To
visually check every case for the proper amount of powder is
inconvenient and slow. (but better than two in the tube or a hand
grenade) I load /shoot about 1k/month. So, I'm going to mount a
small camera that will display a real-time video that is easy to see
from my position operating the
press. I have a five station progressive press and there are a few
powder-check dies available that work very well, but I don't have a
station
to spare between the powder dump and the bullet seating. I use a
separate
crimp die after the bullet seating. (I did start to design an eight
station
press but how obsessive CAN I get?) Get just ONE squib and you'll
never shoot the same, it'll always be in the back of your mind.
Thankfully, I've
never had a double-charge!

I can mount the camera on the ram so it's focus it constant or I can
mount
it to the press if the camera will auto focus fast enough to be
useful. Ideally, the camera would have it's own LED lighting source.

Any recommendations on a camera or refinement of my idea?

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and
instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the
image was too far from the standard and locked the press? Again, a
powder-check die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder
or my separate crimp die.


Have you looked at a USB Microscope?

http://www.google.com/search?q=usb+m...oe=utf-8&aq=t&
rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have
to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

I got one, it won't focus any farther than about 2". I need at least
4"-6". I DO like the scope but It won't do it. Too bad, it has two
levels of LED lighting in a ring config.

How about adding a lens in front to stretch the focus a bit? Not sure
what sort would be required, but it wouldn't have to be perfect.

I know with new cases & a flashlight, there's quite a bit of reflection
that is very distinct from a case with powder. A lot may depend on how
well you clean your cases. That's why watching the powder fall through a
clear drop tube sounds better to me. It also gets the camera in a more
favorable orientation.

Doug White

On 5/17/2010 3:37 AM, Buerste wrote:

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press? Again, a powder-check die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.



Why wouldn't you just use a sensor on the piston (light gate, whatever)
and not advance to the next step unless the piston has cycled down to
the proper level? What is the advantage of video and image processing?

Kevin Gallimore

Tom, I thought I'd hold back a while then present my simple solution. I just
weigh every completed cartridge on accept inspection. Set your scale to 0 on
an average bullet and go. A gross mischarge is quick to spot. I do every
bullet for wieght and primer seating. check about every fifth with a case
guage. Maybe I'm an anal engineer, but zero defects make it seem worth
while.

Karl

"Buerste" wrote in message
...
The thing that scares me the most in my reloading endeavors is a squib.
To visually check every case for the proper amount of powder is
inconvenient and slow. (but better than two in the tube or a hand
grenade) I load /shoot about 1k/month. So, I'm going to mount a small
camera that will display a real-time video that is easy to see from my
position operating the press. I have a five station progressive press and
there are a few powder-check dies available that work very well, but I
don't have a station to spare between the powder dump and the bullet
seating. I use a separate crimp die after the bullet seating. (I did
start to design an eight station press but how obsessive CAN I get?) Get
just ONE squib and you'll never shoot the same, it'll always be in the
back of your mind. Thankfully, I've never had a double-charge!

I can mount the camera on the ram so it's focus it constant or I can mount
it to the press if the camera will auto focus fast enough to be useful.
Ideally, the camera would have it's own LED lighting source.

Any recommendations on a camera or refinement of my idea?

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and
instantly compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the
image was too far from the standard and locked the press? Again, a
powder-check die would do just that but I would not be able to use my
bullet feeder or my separate crimp die.


I used to work for a machine vision system integrator and did some projects
for Olin for their military cartridges. One project was for the 30mm or
35mm (don't remember) cartridges for the A-10 tank killer and another
project was for 25mm cartridges.

You would either need some machine vision software and then a camera that
would be compatible or a stand alone machine vision system. I worked with
Allen Bradley, DVT, and Omron vision systems, you might be able to get an
eBay bargain. If I were going to use one at home I'd prefer the DVT, plug
it into your ethernet to configure it and the processor, on some models, is
in the camera.

A good lighting for seeing inside a cartridge might be a beam splitter type
of device that reflects a light from a partially silvered mirror, the camera
looks through the mirror and the light is directly in line (by using a 45
Degree mirror) with the camera lens. That setup would let you align the
camera to see the primer through the cartridge neck and also shine the light
in line with the lens, through the neck and to the primer. For the 25mm
cartridges the opening was big enough to use a ring light made of LED's.

RogerN

"Buerste" fired this volley in
:

I mostly load .38 but followed closely by .45 then 9mm.
Unfortunately, my sweet load is 2.7 grains of 700x which is not a
bulky powder and my cast bullets vary by more than that, cases aren't
much better as I use mixed headstamps with questionable pedigree. I
use the .38s in a .357 Smith that would handle a double load. The
auto loaders scare me the most.


Then cavity resonance might not be the best way to measure it, although
it's a good idea if you were working with factory-new brass. Either
weight or mass are the _only_ ways you'll tell if the load is correct.
Also, you'll have to do the final check before you place and swage the
bullet.

It _could_ be reasonable that the same station that did the powder
loading could measure the mass before and after powder loading, but
before the turret turned. The way progressive loaders work, I think it
might be better to make a transducer that impinged on the side of the
case being measured, than to have a transducer per station, with the
requisite problems of connecting them electrically as the turret moved.

There are a number of problems to solve -- elasticity of the clamp that
holds the casing, moving the transducer probe to the casing, a
calibration method that "knows" how loads within the acceptable range
affect the resonant frequency (dropping it, of course), and so on.

LLoyd

Quality magazine has an insert on USB etc cameras.

One source - Sams / Costco / Walmart - cameras for security - but they might not
focus close...

The other I'd think on the lower cost is one for a telescope. Those focus close.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 5/17/2010 2:37 AM, Buerste wrote:
The thing that scares me the most in my reloading endeavors is a squib. To
visually check every case for the proper amount of powder is inconvenient
and slow. (but better than two in the tube or a hand grenade) I load
/shoot about 1k/month. So, I'm going to mount a small camera that will
display a real-time video that is easy to see from my position operating the
press. I have a five station progressive press and there are a few
powder-check dies available that work very well, but I don't have a station
to spare between the powder dump and the bullet seating. I use a separate
crimp die after the bullet seating. (I did start to design an eight station
press but how obsessive CAN I get?) Get just ONE squib and you'll never
shoot the same, it'll always be in the back of your mind. Thankfully, I've
never had a double-charge!

I can mount the camera on the ram so it's focus it constant or I can mount
it to the press if the camera will auto focus fast enough to be useful.
Ideally, the camera would have it's own LED lighting source.

Any recommendations on a camera or refinement of my idea?

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press? Again, a powder-check die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.

On 2010-05-17, Buerste wrote:
The thing that scares me the most in my reloading endeavors is a squib. To
visually check every case for the proper amount of powder is inconvenient
and slow.

[ ... ]

I can mount the camera on the ram so it's focus it constant or I can mount
it to the press if the camera will auto focus fast enough to be useful.
Ideally, the camera would have it's own LED lighting source.

Any recommendations on a camera or refinement of my idea?

A question occurs -- why must it be a USB camera? That would
then require a computer to display it.

I would use a stand-alone camera which puts out standard video,
and couple it to the monitor which is otherwise connected to the nearby
CNC lathe.

And -- such a camera normally does not have an auto-focus. You
just pre-focus it at the right distance and you are in business. (You
may want to make a spacer ring to allow it to focus close enough.

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press?

O.K. That would use the computer -- and require some rather
fancy image processing and image-recognition software, too. :-)

Again, a powder-check die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.

Understood.

How about a level sensor in the power measure to lock up the
press when the level in the hopper falls below a preset level?
Normally, you are not going to get improper dump of powder until the
supply gets too low to maintain pressure in the hopper.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Mon, 17 May 2010 22:22:24 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 17 May 2010 03:37:56 -0400, "Buerste"
wrote:

The thing that scares me the most in my reloading endeavors is a squib. To
visually check every case for the proper amount of powder is inconvenient
and slow. (but better than two in the tube or a hand grenade) I load
/shoot about 1k/month. So, I'm going to mount a small camera that will
display a real-time video that is easy to see from my position operating the
press. I have a five station progressive press and there are a few
powder-check dies available that work very well, but I don't have a station
to spare between the powder dump and the bullet seating. I use a separate
crimp die after the bullet seating. (I did start to design an eight station
press but how obsessive CAN I get?) Get just ONE squib and you'll never
shoot the same, it'll always be in the back of your mind. Thankfully, I've
never had a double-charge!

I can mount the camera on the ram so it's focus it constant or I can mount
it to the press if the camera will auto focus fast enough to be useful.
Ideally, the camera would have it's own LED lighting source.

Any recommendations on a camera or refinement of my idea?

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press? Again, a powder-check die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.


Assuming that you use "squib" to mean a load with less then the
correct amount of powder, this was common when loading shotgun
shells. Probably because many people had progressive machines for
shotgun shells but used a single station press for anything else.

The "problem" was so common that I have shot on Skeet ranges that had
a ramrod hanging on both the high and low house.

But being less facetious, the problem was almost always that the
powder ran out and a few primed cases were loaded without powder and
firing them would blow the wad and shot about half way up the barrel.
If you shot a second round you had an instant short barrel gun :-)

In reference to your camera idea I have seen an article about how to
rig a security camera and compare each frame with the previous to
detect entry. the same sort of thing would certainly work for checking
powder levels.

I'll look around tomorrow and see whether I can locate the article and
perhaps I can give you a reference to how it was done.

John B. Slocomb
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)


Further to the above. Have a look at
http://www.lavrsen.dk/foswiki/bin/vi...ionGuide3x1x20
for information on a system that compares one frame to another and can
detect a difference. It seems mainly concerned with motion g but
there is no reason that it cannot detect difference between any two
frames.

What I looked at is Linux software but if you are setting up a
dedicated system that shouldn't cause problems.

John B. Slocomb
(johnbslocombatgmaildotcom)

"axolotl" wrote in message
...
On 5/17/2010 3:37 AM, Buerste wrote:

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and
instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press? Again, a powder-check
die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.



Why wouldn't you just use a sensor on the piston (light gate, whatever)
and not advance to the next step unless the piston has cycled down to the
proper level? What is the advantage of video and image processing?

Kevin Gallimore

That's what a powder check die does, I just don't have a spare station.

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
Tom, I thought I'd hold back a while then present my simple solution. I
just weigh every completed cartridge on accept inspection. Set your scale
to 0 on an average bullet and go. A gross mischarge is quick to spot. I
do every bullet for wieght and primer seating. check about every fifth
with a case guage. Maybe I'm an anal engineer, but zero defects make it
seem worth while.

Karl





My bullet weight varies more than the 2.7 grain charge and my cases are
mixed headstamps and they vary. My powder charge is about the volume of a
pea. I'm on the right side of the press and the powder dump is on the far
left. I CAN observe the case after the powder dump but I have to move
awkwardly to do so. Thus the camera to take a peek in the case and put the
image on a screen that's behind the press on the right. Too bad, I have a
few comparator scales at work with settable +/- tolerance for weighing wire.
I don't want to give up my "Factory Crimp Die". I still want that 8-station
press!

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2010-05-17, Buerste wrote:
The thing that scares me the most in my reloading endeavors is a squib.
To
visually check every case for the proper amount of powder is inconvenient
and slow.

[ ... ]

I can mount the camera on the ram so it's focus it constant or I can
mount
it to the press if the camera will auto focus fast enough to be useful.
Ideally, the camera would have it's own LED lighting source.

Any recommendations on a camera or refinement of my idea?

A question occurs -- why must it be a USB camera? That would
then require a computer to display it.

I would use a stand-alone camera which puts out standard video,
and couple it to the monitor which is otherwise connected to the nearby
CNC lathe.

And -- such a camera normally does not have an auto-focus. You
just pre-focus it at the right distance and you are in business. (You
may want to make a spacer ring to allow it to focus close enough.

Imagine if the camera took a still at the bottom of the stroke and
instantly
compared the image to a "standard" then sounded an alarm if the image was
too far from the standard and locked the press?

O.K. That would use the computer -- and require some rather
fancy image processing and image-recognition software, too. :-)

Again, a powder-check
die
would do just that but I would not be able to use my bullet feeder or my
separate crimp die.

Understood.

How about a level sensor in the power measure to lock up the
press when the level in the hopper falls below a preset level?
Normally, you are not going to get improper dump of powder until the
supply gets too low to maintain pressure in the hopper.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I'm not worried about the hopper running out. The charge is so small that
the hopper is still three quarters full when I'm WAY tired of reloading.
It's the odd happenstance that I don't get a dump or the cycle was out of
the norm. I've only had one squib in 5,000 rounds...one too many!

My bullet weight varies more than the 2.7 grain charge and my cases are
mixed headstamps and they vary. My powder charge is about the volume of a
pea. I'm on the right side of the press and the powder dump is on the far
left. I CAN observe the case after the powder dump but I have to move
awkwardly to do so. Thus the camera to take a peek in the case and put
the image on a screen that's behind the press on the right. Too bad, I
have a few comparator scales at work with settable +/- tolerance for
weighing wire. I don't want to give up my "Factory Crimp Die". I still
want that 8-station press!


Good points. Obviously your problem is shooting those itty bitty pea shooter
loads. Get yourself a BMG.

Now you have reached an age that you don't need to wait to get what you
want. Order that eight station unit today. Spend your kids inheritance.

Karl

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
My bullet weight varies more than the 2.7 grain charge and my cases are
mixed headstamps and they vary. My powder charge is about the volume of
a pea. I'm on the right side of the press and the powder dump is on the
far left. I CAN observe the case after the powder dump but I have to
move awkwardly to do so. Thus the camera to take a peek in the case and
put the image on a screen that's behind the press on the right. Too bad,
I have a few comparator scales at work with settable +/- tolerance for
weighing wire. I don't want to give up my "Factory Crimp Die". I still
want that 8-station press!


Good points. Obviously your problem is shooting those itty bitty pea
shooter loads. Get yourself a BMG.

Now you have reached an age that you don't need to wait to get what you
want. Order that eight station unit today. Spend your kids inheritance.

Karl




If I only had a convenient place to shoot rifles! I would love to get into
bench rest... I sold my 240 Gibbs, It was a pain to fire-form cases and
build rounds. But, it could dot an "i" at 1,000 yards on a calm day! In 15
years, it only saw about 100 rounds and I only made 25 cases. I still have
a couple of .223 Mini-14s but they are for sale. I think a .50 BMG could
become an obsession that would break the bank! I imaging dumping powder
with a measuring cup. I can shoot .38s for $0.03 each and not have to chase
brass.

Buerste wrote:
... I can shoot .38s for $0.03 each and not have to chase
brass.

Wow! How does that cost break down? Curious. Bob

On May 18, 9:15*am, "Buerste" wrote:
"Karl Townsend" wrote in message

anews.com...





My bullet weight varies more than the 2.7 grain charge and my cases are
mixed headstamps and they vary. *My powder charge is about the volume of
a pea. *I'm on the right side of the press and the powder dump is on the
far left. *I CAN observe the case after the powder dump but I have to
move awkwardly to do so. *Thus the camera to take a peek in the case and
put the image on a screen that's behind the press on the right. *Too bad,
I have a few comparator scales at work with settable +/- tolerance for
weighing wire. I don't want to give up my "Factory Crimp Die". *I still
want that 8-station press!

Good points. Obviously your problem is shooting those itty bitty pea
shooter loads. Get yourself a BMG.

Now you have reached an age that you don't need to wait to get what you
want. Order that eight station unit today. Spend your kids inheritance.

Karl

If I only had a convenient place to shoot rifles! * I would love to get into
bench rest... *I sold my 240 Gibbs, It was a pain to fire-form cases and
build rounds. *But, it could dot an "i" at 1,000 yards on a calm day! *In 15
years, it only saw about 100 rounds and I only made 25 cases. *I still have
a couple of .223 Mini-14s but they are for sale. *I think a .50 BMG could
become an obsession that would break the bank! *I imaging dumping powder
with a measuring cup. *I can shoot .38s for $0.03 each and not have to chase
brass.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Must be using OLD primers, they're 3 1/2 cents apiece on sale now.
And that's from somebody that's not gouging! Yeah, I've still got a
few(and always fewer) boxes of 1K that say $7.95 on them, that was
then, this is now.

For the other poster, new .38/.357 brass runs $25-$40/100, depending
on who's doing the gouging and when it's available. Light charges
will extend case life, it's not impossible to get 20 reloads or more
out of a case that way. 7000 grains per pound of powder, 2-3 grains
per charge for Bullseye or similar for target loads, runs $22-$30/lb,
again, depending on where it's bought. Cheapest store-bought bullets
are around $15/100 for lead, run right around 20-25 cents@ for
jacketed. If you don't value your time and can get access to free
lead, you can cast bullets for essentially the cost of the electricity
or propane. With a 4-up gang mold, or better yet, a pair, 300-400
good bullets an hour by hand are quite possible, assuming a big enough
pot and using a big ladle. The limiting factor is the cooling time of
the mold. Some of the fancier casting machines come with forced fan
cooling to up the rate. Larger bullets take longer to freeze, can't
do too many 12 gauge balls or slugs per hour.

Stan

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
Buerste wrote:
... I can shoot .38s for $0.03 each and not have to chase brass.

Wow! How does that cost break down? Curious. Bob

2.3 cents for a primer, I buy 10k at a time, half a cent for powder, free
boolits from wheel weights. I don't include cost for labor, equipment or
electricity. The biggest expense is range time at $12/hr. I print my own
targets on 4x6 shipping labels. My S&W Mod 19 will make one hole at 30 feet
from a rest. Off-hand, I will keep every round in the label even with my
S&W 442. I found out that the more I practice, the luckier I get.

"Buerste" wrote:

The thing that scares me the most in my reloading endeavors is a squib.


I've had one. Really sucks when it is a revolver. Nothing like beating a squib back into
a case that might have powder in it so you can open the crane. For my heavy barrel
security six target model, a bic pen body worked fine to protect the rifling.

I have a progressive press but it is such a switched on pay attention thing that I'd
rather use a turret press or a Lee hand loader and take my time.

Snapping a digicam photo of the cases in the loading block with powder in them for review
after loading, sounds like a nice addition to my loading process.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Tue, 18 May 2010 15:56:28 -0400, "Buerste"
wrote the following:


"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
Buerste wrote:
... I can shoot .38s for $0.03 each and not have to chase brass.

Wow! How does that cost break down? Curious. Bob

2.3 cents for a primer, I buy 10k at a time, half a cent for powder, free
boolits from wheel weights. I don't include cost for labor, equipment or
electricity. The biggest expense is range time at $12/hr. I print my own
targets on 4x6 shipping labels. My S&W Mod 19 will make one hole at 30 feet
from a rest. Off-hand, I will keep every round in the label even with my
S&W 442. I found out that the more I practice, the luckier I get.

Funny how that works, huh?

Egad, I have to re-up at the range and get some more time in this
year. I let it lapse for a year!

--
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our
inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter
the state of facts and evidence. -- John Adams, December 1770
'Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials'

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 May 2010 15:56:28 -0400, "Buerste"
wrote the following:


"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
Buerste wrote:
... I can shoot .38s for $0.03 each and not have to chase brass.

Wow! How does that cost break down? Curious. Bob

2.3 cents for a primer, I buy 10k at a time, half a cent for powder, free
boolits from wheel weights. I don't include cost for labor, equipment or
electricity. The biggest expense is range time at $12/hr. I print my own
targets on 4x6 shipping labels. My S&W Mod 19 will make one hole at 30
feet
from a rest. Off-hand, I will keep every round in the label even with my
S&W 442. I found out that the more I practice, the luckier I get.

Funny how that works, huh?

Egad, I have to re-up at the range and get some more time in this
year. I let it lapse for a year!

--
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our
inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter
the state of facts and evidence. -- John Adams, December 1770
'Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials'


Muscles you don't normally use come into play.

I've found several of the sorts of video components on eBay in the past
couple of years, and they were fairly inexpensive.

If the sellers even know what to call/name the items, they might use terms
like illuminator, or some similar term. If the seller doesn't realize what
the items were used for, they might use some weird descriptions.

Another term they might use is C-mount, referring to the specific camera
mounting arrangement on many of the industrial machine vision setups.

Software will be a more difficult quest, IMO.. a program from a cheap
surveillance camera setup probably won't work well for a machine vision
application.. I suspect that there would be a lot of false alarms, but maybe
not.

--
WB
..........


"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

I used to work for a machine vision system integrator and did some
projects for Olin for their military cartridges. One project was for the
30mm or 35mm (don't remember) cartridges for the A-10 tank killer and
another project was for 25mm cartridges.

You would either need some machine vision software and then a camera that
would be compatible or a stand alone machine vision system. I worked with
Allen Bradley, DVT, and Omron vision systems, you might be able to get an
eBay bargain. If I were going to use one at home I'd prefer the DVT, plug
it into your ethernet to configure it and the processor, on some models,
is in the camera.

A good lighting for seeing inside a cartridge might be a beam splitter
type of device that reflects a light from a partially silvered mirror, the
camera looks through the mirror and the light is directly in line (by
using a 45 Degree mirror) with the camera lens. That setup would let you
align the camera to see the primer through the cartridge neck and also
shine the light in line with the lens, through the neck and to the primer.
For the 25mm cartridges the opening was big enough to use a ring light
made of LED's.

RogerN

On Wed, 19 May 2010 01:08:46 -0400, "Buerste"
wrote the following:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 18 May 2010 15:56:28 -0400, "Buerste"
wrote the following:


"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
Buerste wrote:
... I can shoot .38s for $0.03 each and not have to chase brass.

Wow! How does that cost break down? Curious. Bob

2.3 cents for a primer, I buy 10k at a time, half a cent for powder, free
boolits from wheel weights. I don't include cost for labor, equipment or
electricity. The biggest expense is range time at $12/hr. I print my own
targets on 4x6 shipping labels. My S&W Mod 19 will make one hole at 30
feet
from a rest. Off-hand, I will keep every round in the label even with my
S&W 442. I found out that the more I practice, the luckier I get.

Funny how that works, huh?

Egad, I have to re-up at the range and get some more time in this
year. I let it lapse for a year!

Muscles you don't normally use come into play.

And skills are both developed and renewed.


--
The great thing about getting older is that
you don't lose all the other ages you've been.
-- Madeleine L'Engle

In article , "Buerste"
wrote:

"James Waldby" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 May 2010 09:42:41 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Pete C." [wrote]:

Yes. It should be a lot easier to setup to weigh each completed round
automatically and alarm on out of tolerance ones, even log all the
weights.

You'll have to tare the weight of the empty casing first. Even minor
variations due to sizing and trimming can affect your total cartridge
weight.

Another weigh (pun) to do this is to measure the mass of the cartridge,
first empty, then with the powder load. A clamping collar at the neck
of the cartridge attached to a piezo-electric transducer can determine
the resonant frequency of the whole assembly with the empty, then
re-tune after filling to determine pretty precisely the mass of powder
added.

It seems like either of those ideas would need an extra station
or two, which Tom wants to avoid using since all the stations of
his five station progressive press already are busy; otherwise he
would use a powder-check die, like he mentioned, and as Stan also
suggested in his post, for some reason, just after quoting Tom's
post that said, "a powder-check die would do just that but I would
not be able to use my bullet feeder or my separate crimp die".

It might be practical to mount an ultrasonic distance transducer
looking down into the cartridge, instead of a webcam. This would
probably be good enough to distinguish no-powder from powder. Of
course accurately knowing how much powder would be a good thing,
but he apparently has loaded thousands of rounds without needing
to measure it for each one, and just wants to make low-powder loads
much less likely.

Measuring the cavity resonance frequency (with a tiny speaker
and microphone) would be another alternative. Of course not
as accurate as the clamp-on piezoelectric transducer Lloyd
suggests, but probably good enough and wouldn't use up a
station.

Would it be practical to weigh each round after it's done? I
don't recall what cartridge Tom is loading, but presumably the
weight difference between powder/no-powder would be a percent
or more (a few grains out of a few hundred), which ought to be
easy to detect, unless the brass varies by that much.
Of course, if the rounds were weighed in the same order that
they come off the press, it would be even more likely that
the "classic sequence" Stan mentioned, a no-charge round
followed by a double-charged round, could be detected.

--
jiw

I mostly load .38 but followed closely by .45 then 9mm. Unfortunately, my
sweet load is 2.7 grains of 700x which is not a bulky powder and my cast
bullets vary by more than that, cases aren't much better as I use mixed
headstamps with questionable pedigree. I use the .38s in a .357 Smith that
would handle a double load. The auto loaders scare me the most.

I wonder if simply shaking each round near the ear and both listening and
feeling how much mass is moving would suffice to detect grossly out of range
powder loads.

The vision systems will have difficulty telling a very thin layer of powder from
a full load unless there is some kind of probe rod involved.

Joe Gwinn

On May 20, 11:05*am, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

I wonder if simply shaking each round near the ear and both listening and
feeling how much mass is moving would suffice to detect grossly out of range
powder loads.

The vision systems will have difficulty telling a very thin layer of powder from
a full load unless there is some kind of probe rod involved.

Joe Gwinn

Shaking each round would take a lot of time. But maybe you could roll
the cartridges down a incline. The powder tumbling inside would take
some energy. A cartridge without powder might fall a bit further out
and one with a double load might fall short.

Would probably only work for rimless brass, if it works at all. But
could be worth trying.

Dan

In article ,
" wrote:

On May 20, 11:05*am, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

I wonder if simply shaking each round near the ear and both listening and
feeling how much mass is moving would suffice to detect grossly out of
range
powder loads.

The vision systems will have difficulty telling a very thin layer of powder
from
a full load unless there is some kind of probe rod involved.

Joe Gwinn

Shaking each round would take a lot of time. But maybe you could roll
the cartridges down a incline. The powder tumbling inside would take
some energy. A cartridge without powder might fall a bit further out
and one with a double load might fall short.

But would it work well enough? Tom said he had one short every 5,000 rounds or
so.


Would probably only work for rimless brass, if it works at all. But
could be worth trying.

I think that the powder weight is a small fraction of the weight of the entire
round.

Joe Gwinn

Joseph Gwinn wrote in
:

In article
,
" wrote:

On May 20, 11:05*am, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

I wonder if simply shaking each round near the ear and both
listening and feeling how much mass is moving would suffice to
detect grossly out of range
powder loads.

The vision systems will have difficulty telling a very thin layer
of powder from
a full load unless there is some kind of probe rod involved.

Joe Gwinn

Shaking each round would take a lot of time. But maybe you could
roll the cartridges down a incline. The powder tumbling inside would
take some energy. A cartridge without powder might fall a bit
further out and one with a double load might fall short.

But would it work well enough? Tom said he had one short every 5,000
rounds or so.


Would probably only work for rimless brass, if it works at all. But
could be worth trying.

I think that the powder weight is a small fraction of the weight of
the entire round.

In a "hardball" 45 ACP round, you are looking at a 230 grain bullet and a
couple grains of powder. The stuff often literally is a "powder", and it
doesn't really rattle. Some rifle powder has larger grains, and you can
hear it, but it depends a lot on the specific powder. Pistol powders are
often small flat flakes, and they just don't rattle much.

Doug White