Anyone run into one of these? (bet you barked your shins if you did...)

Done a good G**gle on them, found the manufacturer's site, seems they still
make machine tools (but all my enquiry emails bounce back from their
server...), one I'm looking at (remotely, 8-hour drive away, longer towing
2&1/2 tons of machinery) is a 32cm swing (about 12-13") 100cm (about 40")
between centres *possibly toolroom* lathe from the 60's, wondered if anyone
knew anything of 'em? The guy's after scrap-by-weight value for it, but
thinks it's too good to melt down, says it's just too big for his shop! Not
a lot of tooling with it (maybe just a 3-jaw), apart from what looks like a
taper-turning attachment?

Thanks,
Dave H.
--
(The engineer formerly known as Homeless)

"Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men" -
Douglas Bader

"Dave H." wrote in message
...
Anyone run into one of these? (bet you barked your shins if you did...)

Done a good G**gle on them, found the manufacturer's site, seems they
still make machine tools (but all my enquiry emails bounce back from their
server...), one I'm looking at (remotely, 8-hour drive away, longer towing
2&1/2 tons of machinery) is a 32cm swing (about 12-13") 100cm (about 40")
between centres *possibly toolroom* lathe from the 60's, wondered if
anyone knew anything of 'em? The guy's after scrap-by-weight value for it,
but thinks it's too good to melt down, says it's just too big for his
shop! Not a lot of tooling with it (maybe just a 3-jaw), apart from what
looks like a taper-turning attachment?

Thanks,
Dave H.
--
(The engineer formerly known as Homeless)

"Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men" -
Douglas Bader



If it's in good shape it not a bad lathe. The one's I ran were built in the
late 70's and early 80's. They seem to chatter easy on long shafts. I think
they needed more iron in the bed on the longer lathes. (20" swing 10'
centers) Seemed fine for chuck work though, which is most of what we did on
it. Can't say much about a small one like the one you are looking at. It may
be just fine. Although if I was in the market for a new lathe they would be
near the bottom of the list.

Richard W.

"Richard W." wrote...

If it's in good shape it not a bad lathe. The one's I ran were built in
the late 70's and early 80's. They seem to chatter easy on long shafts. I
think they needed more iron in the bed on the longer lathes. (20" swing
10' centers) Seemed fine for chuck work though, which is most of what we
did on it. Can't say much about a small one like the one you are looking
at. It may be just fine. Although if I was in the market for a new lathe
they would be near the bottom of the list.


Thanks for the feedback, Richard, may I pick your brains a little more?

I'd mostly be using it for work in the chuck, things like machining hubs and
clutches I guess, and boring smallish castings on the carriage with a b/c
boring bar, occasional work on driveshafts etc., it'd be an addition to my
tools for working on / modifying motorcycles - I don't imagine I'm likely to
be doing anything that would tax it too much

I'd be interested to know why you'd put them at the bottom of the list,
though - rigidity? This one (the TUB32 model) comes in at around 2.2 tons
for the 12" swing, 40" and is quite a bit heavier than a Colchester of that
size, sounds like it should have plenty of iron in it! Newer ones may have
gone the same way as a lot of manufacturers' kit though, lighter castings,
18g sheet steel where cast iron would have once been used...

If it's a matter of "fit and finish", I wouldn't be expecting too much from
the eastern bloc (I've seen their motorcycles from the 60's!), if it's down
to durability and reliability that's a whole 'nother thing?

While I think of it, it runs (as delivered from the factory) a 10HP 3-phase
motor - reckon I'd get away with a lower-output VFD if I kept the cuts
fairly light? 7.5KW VFD's cost an Imperial Arm and Leg (more than I can pick
the lathe up for, anyway) as does getting the 'lectric co. to install
3-phase power, but here in the UK 3KW (4HP) are getting to be reasonable -
and 10HP in a 12" swing lathe seems kinda generous anyway! I'm still at the
stage of factoring in rental of a plant trailer and truck to tug it, new
reinforced concrete base for the 'shop, 50 yards of heavy armoured cable,
VFD etc. and want to keep the collateral damage to my wallet down...

Thanks, Dave H.
--
(The engineer formerly known as Homeless)

"Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men" -
Douglas Bader

Dave H. wrote:
"Richard W." wrote...

If it's in good shape it not a bad lathe. The one's I ran were built in
the late 70's and early 80's. They seem to chatter easy on long shafts. I
think they needed more iron in the bed on the longer lathes. (20" swing
10' centers) Seemed fine for chuck work though, which is most of what we
did on it. Can't say much about a small one like the one you are looking
at. It may be just fine. Although if I was in the market for a new lathe
they would be near the bottom of the list.


Thanks for the feedback, Richard, may I pick your brains a little more?

I'd mostly be using it for work in the chuck, things like machining hubs and
clutches I guess, and boring smallish castings on the carriage with a b/c
boring bar, occasional work on driveshafts etc., it'd be an addition to my
tools for working on / modifying motorcycles - I don't imagine I'm likely to
be doing anything that would tax it too much

I'd be interested to know why you'd put them at the bottom of the list,
though - rigidity? This one (the TUB32 model) comes in at around 2.2 tons
for the 12" swing, 40" and is quite a bit heavier than a Colchester of that
size, sounds like it should have plenty of iron in it! Newer ones may have
gone the same way as a lot of manufacturers' kit though, lighter castings,
18g sheet steel where cast iron would have once been used...

If it's a matter of "fit and finish", I wouldn't be expecting too much from
the eastern bloc (I've seen their motorcycles from the 60's!), if it's down
to durability and reliability that's a whole 'nother thing?

While I think of it, it runs (as delivered from the factory) a 10HP 3-phase
motor - reckon I'd get away with a lower-output VFD if I kept the cuts
fairly light? 7.5KW VFD's cost an Imperial Arm and Leg (more than I can pick
the lathe up for, anyway) as does getting the 'lectric co. to install
3-phase power, but here in the UK 3KW (4HP) are getting to be reasonable -
and 10HP in a 12" swing lathe seems kinda generous anyway! I'm still at the
stage of factoring in rental of a plant trailer and truck to tug it, new
reinforced concrete base for the 'shop, 50 yards of heavy armoured cable,
VFD etc. and want to keep the collateral damage to my wallet down...

Thanks, Dave H.


If you bolt the lathe to the concrete floor you can make it a lot moe
rigid. Also proper leveling makes a big difference. There is an art to
doing long thin parts without getting chatter, a steady rest or follower
rest being manditory.

I would not recommend using an underrated VFD. I would spring for a
single phase motor of about 5 hp or so and eliminate all your other
electrical problems. It would probably be cheaper in the long run and
would also make the lathe easier to sell.


John

"john" wrote in message
...
Dave H. wrote:
"Richard W." wrote...

If it's in good shape it not a bad lathe. The one's I ran were built in
the late 70's and early 80's. They seem to chatter easy on long shafts.
I
think they needed more iron in the bed on the longer lathes. (20" swing
10' centers) Seemed fine for chuck work though, which is most of what we
did on it. Can't say much about a small one like the one you are looking
at. It may be just fine. Although if I was in the market for a new lathe
they would be near the bottom of the list.


Thanks for the feedback, Richard, may I pick your brains a little more?

I'd mostly be using it for work in the chuck, things like machining hubs
and
clutches I guess, and boring smallish castings on the carriage with a b/c
boring bar, occasional work on driveshafts etc., it'd be an addition to
my
tools for working on / modifying motorcycles - I don't imagine I'm likely
to
be doing anything that would tax it too much

I'd be interested to know why you'd put them at the bottom of the list,
though - rigidity? This one (the TUB32 model) comes in at around 2.2 tons
for the 12" swing, 40" and is quite a bit heavier than a Colchester of
that
size, sounds like it should have plenty of iron in it! Newer ones may
have
gone the same way as a lot of manufacturers' kit though, lighter
castings,
18g sheet steel where cast iron would have once been used...

If it's a matter of "fit and finish", I wouldn't be expecting too much
from
the eastern bloc (I've seen their motorcycles from the 60's!), if it's
down
to durability and reliability that's a whole 'nother thing?

While I think of it, it runs (as delivered from the factory) a 10HP
3-phase
motor - reckon I'd get away with a lower-output VFD if I kept the cuts
fairly light? 7.5KW VFD's cost an Imperial Arm and Leg (more than I can
pick
the lathe up for, anyway) as does getting the 'lectric co. to install
3-phase power, but here in the UK 3KW (4HP) are getting to be
reasonable -
and 10HP in a 12" swing lathe seems kinda generous anyway! I'm still at
the
stage of factoring in rental of a plant trailer and truck to tug it, new
reinforced concrete base for the 'shop, 50 yards of heavy armoured cable,
VFD etc. and want to keep the collateral damage to my wallet down...

Thanks, Dave H.


If you bolt the lathe to the concrete floor you can make it a lot moe
rigid. Also proper leveling makes a big difference. There is an art to
doing long thin parts without getting chatter, a steady rest or follower
rest being manditory.


True, but a lathe with wide ways helps a lot. Tarnows have narrow ways. At
least the ones I have used.


I would not recommend using an underrated VFD. I would spring for a single
phase motor of about 5 hp or so and eliminate all your other electrical
problems. It would probably be cheaper in the long run and would also
make the lathe easier to sell.

I would run a rotary phase. My P&W has a 7.5 HP motor and it works just
fine.

Richard W.

"Dave H." wrote in message
...

"Richard W." wrote...

If it's in good shape it not a bad lathe. The one's I ran were built in
the late 70's and early 80's. They seem to chatter easy on long shafts. I
think they needed more iron in the bed on the longer lathes. (20" swing
10' centers) Seemed fine for chuck work though, which is most of what we
did on it. Can't say much about a small one like the one you are looking
at. It may be just fine. Although if I was in the market for a new lathe
they would be near the bottom of the list.


Thanks for the feedback, Richard, may I pick your brains a little more?

I'd mostly be using it for work in the chuck, things like machining hubs
and clutches I guess, and boring smallish castings on the carriage with a
b/c boring bar, occasional work on driveshafts etc., it'd be an addition
to my tools for working on / modifying motorcycles - I don't imagine I'm
likely to be doing anything that would tax it too much

I think you would find it fine for that. I could take .400" out of 6" bore
running a .020 feed. Didn't even know it was cutting.



I'd be interested to know why you'd put them at the bottom of the list,
though - rigidity?

Rigidity for longer shafts. I have had 6" shafts chatter, yet the same shaft
in a different lathe cut just fine. The ways are narrow. Also the cross
travel is limited. In order to face a large part in one cut, you would have
to positition the tool just right in the cross slide travel. I didn't like
the electric clutch. For long heavy parts it engages to fast. Sounds like
they wouldn't be a problem for you. They seem to be a nice accurate lathe
otherwise. I don't remember the model, but one of these had a weak clutch.
It's been close to 20 years since I ran one of these lathes.


While I think of it, it runs (as delivered from the factory) a 10HP
3-phase motor - reckon I'd get away with a lower-output VFD if I kept the
cuts fairly light? 7.5KW VFD's cost an Imperial Arm and Leg (more than I
can pick the lathe up for, anyway) as does getting the 'lectric co. to
install 3-phase power, but here in the UK 3KW (4HP) are getting to be
reasonable - and 10HP in a 12" swing lathe seems kinda generous anyway!
I'm still at the stage of factoring in rental of a plant trailer and truck
to tug it, new reinforced concrete base for the 'shop, 50 yards of heavy
armoured cable, VFD etc. and want to keep the collateral damage to my
wallet down...

I run a rotary phase on my lathe and it works just fine. That is what I
would get. I just got a 20 hp 3 phase motor that I plan to hook up to my 3
phase welder. But I am in no hurry since I lost my job.

Richard W.

"Richard W." wrote ...
"john" wrote...

If you bolt the lathe to the concrete floor you can make it a lot moe
rigid. Also proper leveling makes a big difference. There is an art to
doing long thin parts without getting chatter, a steady rest or follower
rest being manditory.


True, but a lathe with wide ways helps a lot. Tarnows have narrow ways. At
least the ones I have used.


Checking the spec' (translated as best I can from the original Polish, will
go see my Polish friend Mata if I get the manufacturer's handbook!), it
looks like the width of the ways on the smaller ones like this is about
equal to twice the centre height, and not having a bed gap might help
rigidity some? A new reinforced concrete floor (6" or 8" slab with top and
bottom steel mesh on insulation slab over compacted rubble and sand
blinding) is on the cards whatever I end up buying, and ragbolts into the
concrete would be wise, IMHO, to minimise vibration. I've seen machinery
dance across the floor when it hit resonant frequency, don't fancy 2 tons of
lathe chasing me out the door... 1/4 ton of rock'n'rolling ICL chain-printer
was bad enough.


I would not recommend using an underrated VFD. I would spring for a
single phase motor of about 5 hp or so and eliminate all your other
electrical problems. It would probably be cheaper in the long run and
would also make the lathe easier to sell.

I would run a rotary phase. My P&W has a 7.5 HP motor and it works just
fine.

I was thinking of a VFD as a measure of future-proofing as at some point I'd
like to add a smallish mill to the toolkit, and rotary convertors take a
fair amount of real-estate - not something I'm particularly blessed with
(SWMBO would rather have other luxuries and space for our motorcycles in the
Big Shed!) - and it looks like there's not a lot of difference on price. A
single-phase motor in that power bracket is probably going to cost more than
the VFD, too, and would still leave me with around half the original
horsepower and needing a rewire for the "shop" power...

I've seen a few smaller lathes run on "undersized" VFDs without too much of
a problem, and to be honest the lathe has speeds from 17 to 2800 RPM and
plenty in between straight off the motor, with drive clutches so the motor
would be able to spin up without the added mass / moment of the spindle and
workpiece? I appreciate that it might limit the amount of chips I could make
per minute, but this is for serious hobby use, not a production shop, and my
concern is more that runing the motor on an undersized VFD could cause
issues for the motor - not being an expert on induction motors (more optics,
RF and microwaves, really) I'm open to the collective wisdom of the group!

Thanks again,
Dave H.
--
(The engineer formerly known as Homeless)

"Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men" -
Douglas Bader

"Dave H." wrote in message
...

"Richard W." wrote ...
"john" wrote...

If you bolt the lathe to the concrete floor you can make it a lot moe
rigid. Also proper leveling makes a big difference. There is an art to
doing long thin parts without getting chatter, a steady rest or follower
rest being manditory.


True, but a lathe with wide ways helps a lot. Tarnows have narrow ways.
At least the ones I have used.


Checking the spec' (translated as best I can from the original Polish,
will go see my Polish friend Mata if I get the manufacturer's handbook!),
it looks like the width of the ways on the smaller ones like this is about
equal to twice the centre height, and not having a bed gap might help
rigidity some? A new reinforced concrete floor (6" or 8" slab with top and
bottom steel mesh on insulation slab over compacted rubble and sand
blinding) is on the cards whatever I end up buying, and ragbolts into the
concrete would be wise, IMHO, to minimise vibration. I've seen machinery
dance across the floor when it hit resonant frequency, don't fancy 2 tons
of lathe chasing me out the door... 1/4 ton of rock'n'rolling ICL
chain-printer was bad enough.


The one I used was bolted to a concrete floor.

Richard W.

On 2010-03-01, Dave H. wrote:

"Richard W." wrote ...
"john" wrote...

[ ... ]

I would not recommend using an underrated VFD. I would spring for a
single phase motor of about 5 hp or so and eliminate all your other
electrical problems. It would probably be cheaper in the long run and
would also make the lathe easier to sell.

I would run a rotary phase. My P&W has a 7.5 HP motor and it works just
fine.

I was thinking of a VFD as a measure of future-proofing as at some point I'd
like to add a smallish mill to the toolkit, and rotary convertors take a
fair amount of real-estate - not something I'm particularly blessed with
(SWMBO would rather have other luxuries and space for our motorcycles in the
Big Shed!) - and it looks like there's not a lot of difference on price. A
single-phase motor in that power bracket is probably going to cost more than
the VFD, too, and would still leave me with around half the original
horsepower and needing a rewire for the "shop" power...

You're thinking of a "static" converter for the reduced
horsepower. Make a rotary converter and take the time to balance it
with tuning capacitors, and you can get full horsepower from the tool's
motor.

And it looks as though you are looking at *new* prices for the
idler motors used in the rotary converter. Get a used motor from
someplace like an industrial HVAC contractor who pulls out used
equipment while installing new, and will usually be glad to sell you the
pulls. You don't even care if the shaft keyway is messed up, because
all you want out of this is *electrical* power, not mechanical.

The primary place that the VFDs win is in giving you variable
speed when you don't already have it (or smooth variation when otherwise
you have to stop the machine and shift belts or gears.

Good luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2010-03-01, Dave H.
wrote:

"Richard W." wrote ...
"john" wrote...

[ ... ]

I would not recommend using an underrated VFD. I would spring for a
single phase motor of about 5 hp or so and eliminate all your other
electrical problems. It would probably be cheaper in the long run and
would also make the lathe easier to sell.

I would run a rotary phase. My P&W has a 7.5 HP motor and it works just
fine.

I was thinking of a VFD as a measure of future-proofing as at some point
I'd
like to add a smallish mill to the toolkit, and rotary convertors take a
fair amount of real-estate - not something I'm particularly blessed with
(SWMBO would rather have other luxuries and space for our motorcycles in
the
Big Shed!) - and it looks like there's not a lot of difference on price.
A
single-phase motor in that power bracket is probably going to cost more
than
the VFD, too, and would still leave me with around half the original
horsepower and needing a rewire for the "shop" power...

You're thinking of a "static" converter for the reduced
horsepower. Make a rotary converter and take the time to balance it
with tuning capacitors, and you can get full horsepower from the tool's
motor.

And it looks as though you are looking at *new* prices for the
idler motors used in the rotary converter. Get a used motor from
someplace like an industrial HVAC contractor who pulls out used
equipment while installing new, and will usually be glad to sell you the
pulls. You don't even care if the shaft keyway is messed up, because
all you want out of this is *electrical* power, not mechanical.

The primary place that the VFDs win is in giving you variable
speed when you don't already have it (or smooth variation when otherwise
you have to stop the machine and shift belts or gears.

Good luck,
DoN.


I agree with Don. An idler motor doesn't take up much room. You are going to
need a short bench to hold your extra lathe chucks and the idler can sit on
the floor under it or on a lower shelf. Idler motors that are made to sit
with the shaft vertical are a space saver also.

Richard W.