Hi folks.
I am trying to repair a vertical woodcutting bandsaw. It is a
Crescent/Delta 20" made in "back in the day"
When I bought it, the upper wheel axle or shaft was scored from a
locked-up bearing. I repaired it by tig brazing and used the saw for
a few years. Just recently, the whole shaft broke. A replacement
shaft is not availble, so I was planning to make a replacement. I
have acess to a lathe, but no heat treating or grinding equipment.

The following links are from my first repair.The shaft is 1" in
diameter at it's largest and about 9.5" long.

http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_shaft_repair.txt
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_001.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_002.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_003.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_005.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_007.jpg

I hope to buy a chunk of steel from McMaster-Carr and have at it.
They sell a dizzying array of steel alloys, and I dont' know which to
choose.

Can anyone recommend a type of steel? Can I just machine a shaft and
not harden it? Any and all advice appretiated.

Thanks,
Andy
Lynn, MA

On Dec 31, 5:11*pm, andy wrote:
Hi folks.
I am trying to repair a vertical woodcutting bandsaw. *It is a
Crescent/Delta 20" made in "back in the day"
...
Can anyone recommend a type of steel? Can I just machine a shaft and
not harden it? *Any and all advice appretiated.
Andy
Lynn, MA

That's how I fixed a 10" Delta, drill rod and new bronze bushings.

jsw

"andy" wrote in message
...
Hi folks.
I am trying to repair a vertical woodcutting bandsaw. It is a
Crescent/Delta 20" made in "back in the day"
When I bought it, the upper wheel axle or shaft was scored from a
locked-up bearing. I repaired it by tig brazing and used the saw for
a few years. Just recently, the whole shaft broke. A replacement
shaft is not availble, so I was planning to make a replacement. I
have acess to a lathe, but no heat treating or grinding equipment.

The following links are from my first repair.The shaft is 1" in
diameter at it's largest and about 9.5" long.

http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_shaft_repair.txt
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_001.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_002.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_003.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_005.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_007.jpg

I hope to buy a chunk of steel from McMaster-Carr and have at it.
They sell a dizzying array of steel alloys, and I dont' know which to
choose.

Can anyone recommend a type of steel? Can I just machine a shaft and
not harden it? Any and all advice appretiated.

Thanks,
Andy
Lynn, MA

4140 would be a good choice. Normalized, it's machineable, if not quickly
machineable, and has a yield of around 95 kips. You can more than double
that in the oil-quenched condition, but single-point turning anything above
about Rc 40 requires some good technique.

Chances are that the normalized condition will do it for you, but if M-C has
some medium-tempered steel, you might try that if you have a rigid lathe and
some carbide tools. Just take it slow.

Here are properties of various 4000-series alloys. Those are good choices
for all but the most extreme applications. Good luck.

http://www.matweb.com/Search/Materia...px?GroupID=230

--
Ed Huntress

On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:11:08 -0800 (PST), andy
wrote:

Hi folks.
I am trying to repair a vertical woodcutting bandsaw. It is a
Crescent/Delta 20" made in "back in the day"
When I bought it, the upper wheel axle or shaft was scored from a
locked-up bearing. I repaired it by tig brazing and used the saw for
a few years. Just recently, the whole shaft broke. A replacement
shaft is not availble, so I was planning to make a replacement. I
have acess to a lathe, but no heat treating or grinding equipment.

The following links are from my first repair.The shaft is 1" in
diameter at it's largest and about 9.5" long.

http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_shaft_repair.txt
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_001.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_002.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_003.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_005.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_007.jpg

I hope to buy a chunk of steel from McMaster-Carr and have at it.
They sell a dizzying array of steel alloys, and I dont' know which to
choose.

Can anyone recommend a type of steel? Can I just machine a shaft and
not harden it? Any and all advice appretiated.


I'd use "Stressproof," which is a tradename for AISI 1144. See the
bottom of McMaster p.3605. You'll have to start with an oversize piece
if the 1" dimension needs to be close to 1.000.

My second choice would be 1045 TGP (turned, ground & polished), but
only if starting with an accurate OD is a help. McM p.3601

If you want something even stronger, you could use 4140 pre-hard, but
at the expense of stability and machinability. McM p.3609


--
Ned Simmons

In article
,
andy wrote:

Hi folks.
I am trying to repair a vertical woodcutting bandsaw. It is a
Crescent/Delta 20" made in "back in the day"
When I bought it, the upper wheel axle or shaft was scored from a
locked-up bearing. I repaired it by tig brazing and used the saw for
a few years. Just recently, the whole shaft broke. A replacement
shaft is not availble, so I was planning to make a replacement. I
have acess to a lathe, but no heat treating or grinding equipment.

The following links are from my first repair.The shaft is 1" in
diameter at it's largest and about 9.5" long.

http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_shaft_repair.txt
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_001.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_002.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_003.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_005.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_007.jpg

I hope to buy a chunk of steel from McMaster-Carr and have at it.
They sell a dizzying array of steel alloys, and I dont' know which to
choose.

Can anyone recommend a type of steel? Can I just machine a shaft and
not harden it? Any and all advice appretiated.

Was the shaft ever hard? Try filing the end remote from the TIG brazing.

There is a good chance that the shaft is ordinary mild steel, as Delta
was making these by the million for small dollars. If mild steel, a
leaded steel (like 12L14) would work dandy.

Touch the old shaft to a grinder and look at the sparks. This will tell
you if the shaft is alloy steel.

Joe Gwinn

Ed Huntress wrote:
"andy" wrote in message
...
Hi folks.
I am trying to repair a vertical woodcutting bandsaw. It is a
Crescent/Delta 20" made in "back in the day"
When I bought it, the upper wheel axle or shaft was scored from a
locked-up bearing. I repaired it by tig brazing and used the saw for
a few years. Just recently, the whole shaft broke. A replacement
shaft is not availble, so I was planning to make a replacement. I
have acess to a lathe, but no heat treating or grinding equipment.

The following links are from my first repair.The shaft is 1" in
diameter at it's largest and about 9.5" long.

http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_shaft_repair.txt
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_001.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_002.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_003.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_005.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_007.jpg

I hope to buy a chunk of steel from McMaster-Carr and have at it.
They sell a dizzying array of steel alloys, and I dont' know which to
choose.

Can anyone recommend a type of steel? Can I just machine a shaft and
not harden it? Any and all advice appretiated.

Thanks,
Andy
Lynn, MA

4140 would be a good choice. Normalized, it's machineable, if not
quickly machineable, and has a yield of around 95 kips.
--
Ed Huntress

I used normalized 4140 for swingarm bushings for my motorcycle . Slow speeds
, light cuts , and normal feed rates . Dwell in one spot too long and you'll
be grinding the hardened layer off you just created . I used very sharp
M35/M42 in a lantern toolpost on an old Logan . Finishes beautifully ...

--
Snag
"90 FLHTCU "Strider"
'39 WLDD "PopCycle"
BS 132/SENS/DOF

On Dec 31, 5:49*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
...
There is a good chance that the shaft is ordinary mild steel, as Delta
was making these by the million for small dollars. *If mild steel, a
leaded steel (like 12L14) would work dandy. *

Touch the old shaft to a grinder and look at the sparks. *This will tell
you if the shaft is alloy steel.

Joe Gwinn

The original shaft from my 10" Delta files and sparks like mild steel,
and the pulley setscrew dug deeply into it. The end shows that it was
cut to length with a bandsaw.

You could make it from solid drill rod the size of the bearings and
sleeve the pulley bore on the large end. I found out the hard way that
drill rod needs annealing after a TIG weld.

jsw

"Snag" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"andy" wrote in message
...
Hi folks.
I am trying to repair a vertical woodcutting bandsaw. It is a
Crescent/Delta 20" made in "back in the day"
When I bought it, the upper wheel axle or shaft was scored from a
locked-up bearing. I repaired it by tig brazing and used the saw for
a few years. Just recently, the whole shaft broke. A replacement
shaft is not availble, so I was planning to make a replacement. I
have acess to a lathe, but no heat treating or grinding equipment.

The following links are from my first repair.The shaft is 1" in
diameter at it's largest and about 9.5" long.

http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_shaft_repair.txt
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_001.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_002.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_003.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_005.jpg
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/saw_...repair_007.jpg

I hope to buy a chunk of steel from McMaster-Carr and have at it.
They sell a dizzying array of steel alloys, and I dont' know which to
choose.

Can anyone recommend a type of steel? Can I just machine a shaft and
not harden it? Any and all advice appretiated.

Thanks,
Andy
Lynn, MA

4140 would be a good choice. Normalized, it's machineable, if not
quickly machineable, and has a yield of around 95 kips.
--
Ed Huntress

I used normalized 4140 for swingarm bushings for my motorcycle . Slow
speeds , light cuts , and normal feed rates . Dwell in one spot too long
and you'll be grinding the hardened layer off you just created . I used
very sharp M35/M42 in a lantern toolpost on an old Logan . Finishes
beautifully ...

--
Snag

Yup, that's been my experience with it, too. I use it because I happen to
have a couple of bars of normalized 4140 that were given to me, and I've
used it for a number of little shaft jobs, turning it with what is probably
M2 -- my ancient stash of Crucible Rex (no number) -- on a 64-year-old South
Bend 10L, with a rocker (lantern) toolpost. It cuts nicely.

I've also machined pre-hardened 4140, but that was on an old Reed-Prentice
lathe with carbide cutters. My SB and I don't do very well on steel harder
than Rc 40 or so. I've managed it a couple of times, but not reliably.

Anyway, that's a pretty strong steel, and it makes a good high-end solution.
Others have recommended Stressproof, which is extra-hard-drawn 1144 with a
stress relief heat treatment. It has about the same yield (around 100 kips)
as normalized 4140 but only about half the elongation. Better elongation is
the primary advantage of 4000 Series over other carbon steels, but it
shouldn't make any difference in this application, because if it takes a
permanent bend, you're screwed anyway. g

I'd use whichever of the two is more readily available.

--
Ed Huntress

In article
,
Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Dec 31, 5:49*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
...
There is a good chance that the shaft is ordinary mild steel, as Delta
was making these by the million for small dollars. *If mild steel, a
leaded steel (like 12L14) would work dandy. *

Touch the old shaft to a grinder and look at the sparks. *This will tell
you if the shaft is alloy steel.

Joe Gwinn

The original shaft from my 10" Delta files and sparks like mild steel,
and the pulley setscrew dug deeply into it. The end shows that it was
cut to length with a bandsaw.

Bingo. I suspected as much. It's cheaper for Delta to make this part
big enough that ordinary steel is good enough, so that's what they did.


You could make it from solid drill rod the size of the bearings and
sleeve the pulley bore on the large end. I found out the hard way that
drill rod needs annealing after a TIG weld.

There are lots of alloys used to make drill rod, and some are air
hardening.

I would just make the new axle from 12L14 (which is a bit stronger than
ordinary mild steel like 1018), and put the money and effort into good
bearings and accurate fitting to the shaft, so no repeat drama.


Joe Gwinn

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Snag" wrote in message
I used normalized 4140 for swingarm bushings for my motorcycle . Slow
speeds , light cuts , and normal feed rates . Dwell in one spot too
long and you'll be grinding the hardened layer off you just created
. I used very sharp M35/M42 in a lantern toolpost on an old Logan .
Finishes beautifully ...

--
Snag

Yup, that's been my experience with it, too. I use it because I
happen to have a couple of bars of normalized 4140 that were given to
me, and I've used it for a number of little shaft jobs, turning it
with what is probably M2 -- my ancient stash of Crucible Rex (no
number) -- on a 64-year-old South Bend 10L, with a rocker (lantern)
toolpost. It cuts nicely. --
Ed Huntress

Cabinet shop I useta work at got a new CNC router (4'X12' bed) . I ended
up with three pieces of (pretty sure) 4140 that were 2 3/8 to 3 1/4 dia and
6 ft long ... They were part of the shipping bracing ... this stuff throws a
spark identical to known 4140 , and hardens exactly like it . I've used
about 2 feet ...also got some 3/8" plate brackets an' stuff , same material
..
And about 20 feet of 1 1/4 rebar ... hey , ya gonna throw that old chunk
of metal away ? Well , throw it MY way !
--
Snag
"90 FLHTCU "Strider"
'39 WLDD "PopCycle"
BS 132/SENS/DOF

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Yup, that's been my experience with it, too. I use it because I happen to
have a couple of bars of normalized 4140 that were given to me, and I've
used it for a number of little shaft jobs, turning it with what is probably
M2 -- my ancient stash of Crucible Rex (no number) -- on a 64-year-old South
Bend 10L, with a rocker (lantern) toolpost. It cuts nicely.


Is 41L40 much different that 4140? Reason I asked, is I ordered a piece of that to make
something and got impatient when I saw it wasn't going to make it to me until 1/4/2010. I
really hate turning 1.25" dia stock into 9/16" dia stock but I didn't feel like waiting.
12L14 is a joy btw.

Wes

--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Yup, that's been my experience with it, too. I use it because I happen to
have a couple of bars of normalized 4140 that were given to me, and I've
used it for a number of little shaft jobs, turning it with what is
probably
M2 -- my ancient stash of Crucible Rex (no number) -- on a 64-year-old
South
Bend 10L, with a rocker (lantern) toolpost. It cuts nicely.


Is 41L40 much different that 4140? Reason I asked, is I ordered a piece
of that to make
something and got impatient when I saw it wasn't going to make it to me
until 1/4/2010. I
really hate turning 1.25" dia stock into 9/16" dia stock but I didn't feel
like waiting.
12L14 is a joy btw.

Wes

'Don't know about it, Wes, and I've never machined it. If it's as
advertised, it must be something like 12L14 is to 1214.

If you try it, please let us know how it is.

--
Ed Huntress

On Dec 31, 6:43*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
...

I would just make the new axle from 12L14 (which is a bit stronger than
ordinary mild steel like 1018), and put the money and effort into good
bearings and accurate fitting to the shaft, so no repeat drama.

Joe Gwinn

I forgot to mention that part. Oilite bronze bushings compress when
pressed in and probably will have to be reamed to fit. IIRC I pulled
the reamer through, with centering shims (tape?) around the shank, so
the two holes would line up.

Reamers don't always cut well backwards. The 5/8" one I used had been
ground on the shank with a round-edged wheel that left enough of an
angle on the back end of the flutes to self-center. I have others that
are almost square there and make a mess backwards.

jsw

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

'Don't know about it, Wes, and I've never machined it. If it's as
advertised, it must be something like 12L14 is to 1214.

If you try it, please let us know how it is.

I'll thread another tool post stud for grins after I get it. Will post a followup.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Thanks all for the responses. Quick too! I ordered up a piece of 1144
(stress proof) 1.25" diameter. 1" would have been nicer, but I assume
tolerance= -0.006 means the piece is smaller than what I need. I
checked out all the other steels recommended and "fair machinability"
scares me. This shaft has three diameters, and is threaded in two
spots. Did I mention that i am a wood guy? I really like this saw
however, and will give it my best shot to get it running again.

I took the old shaft to the grinder, and the sparks were more
"fireworky" than a piece of steel pipe. I assume this means it is an
alloy steel of some type. A file cuts into it easily, so it is not
hardened.

Luckilly there was not a lot of drama when the shaft broke. The blade
fell off the machine while cutting, and when I tried to re-mount it,
the upper wheel broke free.

I will take some photos and post my replacement shaft.

Thanks and happy new year!

Andy

"Snag" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Snag" wrote in message
I used normalized 4140 for swingarm bushings for my motorcycle . Slow
speeds , light cuts , and normal feed rates . Dwell in one spot too
long and you'll be grinding the hardened layer off you just created
. I used very sharp M35/M42 in a lantern toolpost on an old Logan .
Finishes beautifully ...

--
Snag

Yup, that's been my experience with it, too. I use it because I
happen to have a couple of bars of normalized 4140 that were given to
me, and I've used it for a number of little shaft jobs, turning it
with what is probably M2 -- my ancient stash of Crucible Rex (no
number) -- on a 64-year-old South Bend 10L, with a rocker (lantern)
toolpost. It cuts nicely. --
Ed Huntress

Cabinet shop I useta work at got a new CNC router (4'X12' bed) . I ended
up with three pieces of (pretty sure) 4140 that were 2 3/8 to 3 1/4 dia
and 6 ft long ... They were part of the shipping bracing ... this stuff
throws a spark identical to known 4140 , and hardens exactly like it .
I've used about 2 feet ...also got some 3/8" plate brackets an' stuff ,
same material .
And about 20 feet of 1 1/4 rebar ... hey , ya gonna throw that old chunk
of metal away ? Well , throw it MY way !
--
Snag
"90 FLHTCU "Strider"
'39 WLDD "PopCycle"
BS 132/SENS/DOF

The 4140 is a useful material to have around, and it's especially good for
transportation machines, like your motorcycles. The extra elongation makes
it safer in applications where it might be loaded to failure, as in a crash.
You can get equal strength in plain carbon steels but not the elongation,
which is another way of saying it has good ductility.

Even though it has only 40 points of carbon, it will harden and strengthen
as if it had a lot more. That's the result of the chromium in the alloy.

--
Ed Huntress

In article
,
Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Dec 31, 6:43*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
...

I would just make the new axle from 12L14 (which is a bit stronger than
ordinary mild steel like 1018), and put the money and effort into good
bearings and accurate fitting to the shaft, so no repeat drama.

Joe Gwinn

I forgot to mention that part. Oilite bronze bushings compress when
pressed in and probably will have to be reamed to fit. IIRC I pulled
the reamer through, with centering shims (tape?) around the shank, so
the two holes would line up.

I don't visualize what you need to do. Nor did I realize that the
bearing is oilite. Or was it solid bronze or babbit metal? These are
stronger than oilite.


Reamers don't always cut well backwards. The 5/8" one I used had been
ground on the shank with a round-edged wheel that left enough of an
angle on the back end of the flutes to self-center. I have others that
are almost square there and make a mess backwards.

I would think one would be using a hand reamer. The adjustable ones
would allow one to creep up on the dimension. I recall from old books
that people used a reamer with a long shaft at one end and a T-handle at
the other, plus a bushing that went into the other bearing and accepted
the long shaft, ensuring that the two bearings were lined up correctly
after reaming to size.

While I have not seen such a reamer in present-day catalogs, I haven't
looked either.

Joe Gwinn

"andy" wrote in message
...
Thanks all for the responses. Quick too! I ordered up a piece of 1144
(stress proof) 1.25" diameter.

Ok, if it's Stressproof(tm), and not just normalized 1144. Stressproof has a
yield strength of around 100 kips (thousands of pounds per square inch).
Ordinary normalized 1144 yields at 58 kips.

That probably will do the job, but if it isn't Stressproof, it's not what
you may think you're ordering.

1" would have been nicer, but I assume
tolerance= -0.006 means the piece is smaller than what I need. I
checked out all the other steels recommended and "fair machinability"
scares me. This shaft has three diameters, and is threaded in two
spots. Did I mention that i am a wood guy? I really like this saw
however, and will give it my best shot to get it running again.

I took the old shaft to the grinder, and the sparks were more
"fireworky" than a piece of steel pipe. I assume this means it is an
alloy steel of some type. A file cuts into it easily, so it is not
hardened.

More sparks generally mean more carbon. Alloys, in general, make fatter,
less-sharp sparks.

Although some folks here will disagree, my guess, based on some materials
experience, is that the original is a piece of cold-rolled, medium carbon
steel. The most likely grade is 1040. That's a very common steel for
mass-produced parts that have to withstand a medium load. It's probably the
most common steel used for machinery parts, and it's even used for things
that we think are very demanding, like the shafts on McPherson struts.

As a rule I go upscale from what I think the original is, if I'm machining a
replacement part for something. 1020 may do the job but I'm not going to
machine a part twice to find out, when I could have used stronger steel and
done the job once.


Luckilly there was not a lot of drama when the shaft broke. The blade
fell off the machine while cutting, and when I tried to re-mount it,
the upper wheel broke free.

I will take some photos and post my replacement shaft.

Thanks and happy new year!

Andy

Happy New Year to you, too, Andy. And good luck making the part!

--
Ed Huntress

On Dec 31, 9:12*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
*Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
I would think one would be using a hand reamer. *The adjustable ones
would allow one to creep up on the dimension. *I recall from old books
that people used a reamer with a long shaft at one end and a T-handle at
the other, plus a bushing that went into the other bearing and accepted
the long shaft, ensuring that the two bearings were lined up correctly
after reaming to size.

While I have not seen such a reamer in present-day catalogs, I haven't
looked either.

Joe Gwinn

This is a machine reamer with a setscrew flat on the shank. I turned
it by hand with a Crescent wrench. It was second hand and may have
been modified to go on a turret lathe. It wasn't meant for the use you
described but it worked.

The shaft could be turned to fit after reaming, or even turned small
to the unreamed size. It's much easier to fine tune the shaft diameter
with a lathe than the hole size with a reamer. I assume the bandsaw
has pressed-in bronze bushings like mine since the shaft looked
similar.

jsw

In article
,
Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Dec 31, 9:12*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
*Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
I would think one would be using a hand reamer. *The adjustable ones
would allow one to creep up on the dimension. *I recall from old books
that people used a reamer with a long shaft at one end and a T-handle at
the other, plus a bushing that went into the other bearing and accepted
the long shaft, ensuring that the two bearings were lined up correctly
after reaming to size.

While I have not seen such a reamer in present-day catalogs, I haven't
looked either.

Joe Gwinn

This is a machine reamer with a setscrew flat on the shank. I turned
it by hand with a Crescent wrench. It was second hand and may have
been modified to go on a turret lathe. It wasn't meant for the use you
described but it worked.

If I picture this, you used the long straight shank of the reamer (plus
a bushing?) as the pilot shaft in the other bearing to ensure that
bearing being reamed lines up with pilot-shaft bearing?


The shaft could be turned to fit after reaming, or even turned small
to the unreamed size. It's much easier to fine tune the shaft diameter
with a lathe than the hole size with a reamer. I assume the bandsaw
has pressed-in bronze bushings like mine since the shaft looked
similar.

That was the implication, and the pictures of the upper axle tend to
support this. Too old to be built with ball bearings.

Joe Gwinn

On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 12:12:31 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:



That was the implication, and the pictures of the upper axle tend to
support this. Too old to be built with ball bearings.

The ball bearings and locknuts are shown in the first photo, but the
appearance of the bearing housing does suggest that the saw was
originally designed with babbitt or bronze bearings. I had a 36"
Crescent saw that I bought at an auction of a furniture factory in VT
in 1980 or so. I was surprised when I removed the wheels to move the
saw that it had needle bearings where I expected to find babbitt, so I
don't think it was unusual for a mfr to make this sort of change while
continuing to reuse the old castings.

This is the same Crescent saw that I had, but it's old enough that it
has babbitt bearings.
http://wiki.owwm.com/Default.aspx?Pa...ookieSupport=1

--
Ned Simmons

On Jan 1, 12:12*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
*Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
If I picture this, you used the long straight shank of the reamer (plus
a bushing?) as the pilot shaft in the other bearing to ensure that
bearing being reamed lines up with pilot-shaft bearing?
...
Joe Gwinn

Yes. I fixed the bandsaw about 20 years ago and don't remember it as
well as the brass bearings on my front end loader, so I may be mixing
the two jobs.

The 'bushing' on the reamer shank was probably a thick layer of
aluminum auto body tape.

Some reamers work better than others backwards. They are ground with a
bevel on the normal leading end and may have a short, imperceptible
taper on the cutting edges. Without these they can chatter or not cut
concentric with the drilled hole. I have a tool and cutter grinding
setup that can bevel them to cut backwards. Presumably few others do
and I don't know a good way to grind a reamer by hand. Lautard(?)
mentioned a honing fixture for them but it doesn't control diameter.

You can make a D bit that serves as a reamer with simple equipment,
possibly only a bench grinder. If you make it on the end of drill rod
you can use the rod as the pilot. I think you would have to press in
only one bearing first and bush the drill rod to the other opening.
After reaming the first bearing you could use it to guide the rod for
reaming the second.

I'm using my HDTV as the laptop's display since it shows two full .pdf
pages at once. It's fine for reading (a download of Holtzapffel
book1), sort of awkward for typing because it's so far out of line
with the keyboard. Sorry for any missed typos.

jsw

In article ,
Ned Simmons wrote:

On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 12:12:31 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:



That was the implication, and the pictures of the upper axle tend to
support this. Too old to be built with ball bearings.

The ball bearings and locknuts are shown in the first photo, but the
appearance of the bearing housing does suggest that the saw was
originally designed with babbitt or bronze bearings. I had a 36"
Crescent saw that I bought at an auction of a furniture factory in VT
in 1980 or so. I was surprised when I removed the wheels to move the
saw that it had needle bearings where I expected to find babbitt, so I
don't think it was unusual for a mfr to make this sort of change while
continuing to reuse the old castings.

This is the same Crescent saw that I had, but it's old enough that it
has babbitt bearings.
http://wiki.owwm.com/Default.aspx?Page=CrescentBandSawRestoration1&Aspx AutoDetectCookieSupport=1

Very interesting webpage. I assume that the "Georgia Agrirama" is a
museum.

Joe Gwinn

Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
"Ed wrote:

Yup, that's been my experience with it, too. I use it because I happen to
have a couple of bars of normalized 4140 that were given to me, and I've
used it for a number of little shaft jobs, turning it with what is
probably
M2 -- my ancient stash of Crucible Rex (no number) -- on a 64-year-old
South
Bend 10L, with a rocker (lantern) toolpost. It cuts nicely.


Is 41L40 much different that 4140? Reason I asked, is I ordered a piece
of that to make
something and got impatient when I saw it wasn't going to make it to me
until 1/4/2010. I
really hate turning 1.25" dia stock into 9/16" dia stock but I didn't feel
like waiting.
12L14 is a joy btw.

Wes

'Don't know about it, Wes, and I've never machined it. If it's as
advertised, it must be something like 12L14 is to 1214.

If you try it, please let us know how it is.



41L40 has lead in it to make machining easier. It is not recommended to
weld because of the lead. 4140 can be easy or hard to cut depending on
the sulfur content. I think the max allowable sulfur is .2% The more
sulfur the harder it is to weld it, but the easier it is to machine it.
If you get a piece with no sulfur in it machining will be miserable.

John

andy wrote:
Thanks all for the responses. Quick too! I ordered up a piece of 1144
(stress proof) 1.25" diameter. 1" would have been nicer, but I assume
tolerance= -0.006 means the piece is smaller than what I need. I
checked out all the other steels recommended and "fair machinability"
scares me. This shaft has three diameters, and is threaded in two
spots. Did I mention that i am a wood guy? I really like this saw
however, and will give it my best shot to get it running again.

I took the old shaft to the grinder, and the sparks were more
"fireworky" than a piece of steel pipe. I assume this means it is an
alloy steel of some type. A file cuts into it easily, so it is not
hardened.

Luckilly there was not a lot of drama when the shaft broke. The blade
fell off the machine while cutting, and when I tried to re-mount it,
the upper wheel broke free.

I will take some photos and post my replacement shaft.

Thanks and happy new year!

Andy

The sparks are an indication of carbon content in the steel. If the
sparks were more numerous than the steel pipe but of the same general
color and shape, you probably had a shaft of 1045 steel. Alloy steel
usually sparks less than mild steel. Try grinding the end of an old
file and see the sparks. The file is usually 1090 steel, the xx90
indicating 90 points of carbon.


John

"john" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
"Ed wrote:

Yup, that's been my experience with it, too. I use it because I happen
to
have a couple of bars of normalized 4140 that were given to me, and
I've
used it for a number of little shaft jobs, turning it with what is
probably
M2 -- my ancient stash of Crucible Rex (no number) -- on a 64-year-old
South
Bend 10L, with a rocker (lantern) toolpost. It cuts nicely.


Is 41L40 much different that 4140? Reason I asked, is I ordered a piece
of that to make
something and got impatient when I saw it wasn't going to make it to me
until 1/4/2010. I
really hate turning 1.25" dia stock into 9/16" dia stock but I didn't
feel
like waiting.
12L14 is a joy btw.

Wes

'Don't know about it, Wes, and I've never machined it. If it's as
advertised, it must be something like 12L14 is to 1214.

If you try it, please let us know how it is.



41L40 has lead in it to make machining easier. It is not recommended to
weld because of the lead. 4140 can be easy or hard to cut depending on
the sulfur content. I think the max allowable sulfur is .2% The more
sulfur the harder it is to weld it, but the easier it is to machine it. If
you get a piece with no sulfur in it machining will be miserable.

John

Huh. It's interesting that a strict alloy like 4140 would allow enough
difference in sulfur to have much effect on machineability. It's not
something I have a lot of experience with, and most that I've turned
probably all came from the same batch.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote:


"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Yup, that's been my experience with it, too. I use it because I happen to
have a couple of bars of normalized 4140 that were given to me, and I've
used it for a number of little shaft jobs, turning it with what is
probably
M2 -- my ancient stash of Crucible Rex (no number) -- on a 64-year-old
South
Bend 10L, with a rocker (lantern) toolpost. It cuts nicely.


Is 41L40 much different that 4140? Reason I asked, is I ordered a piece
of that to make
something and got impatient when I saw it wasn't going to make it to me
until 1/4/2010. I
really hate turning 1.25" dia stock into 9/16" dia stock but I didn't feel
like waiting.
12L14 is a joy btw.

Wes

'Don't know about it, Wes, and I've never machined it. If it's as
advertised, it must be something like 12L14 is to 1214.

If you try it, please let us know how it is.


I think I'm going to turn it into bolts for my RGG gatling gun. I turned some 1144 today
at work. That was pretty nice to work with.

Not sure how this thread got brought back to life.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote:


"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Yup, that's been my experience with it, too. I use it because I happen
to
have a couple of bars of normalized 4140 that were given to me, and I've
used it for a number of little shaft jobs, turning it with what is
probably
M2 -- my ancient stash of Crucible Rex (no number) -- on a 64-year-old
South
Bend 10L, with a rocker (lantern) toolpost. It cuts nicely.


Is 41L40 much different that 4140? Reason I asked, is I ordered a piece
of that to make
something and got impatient when I saw it wasn't going to make it to me
until 1/4/2010. I
really hate turning 1.25" dia stock into 9/16" dia stock but I didn't
feel
like waiting.
12L14 is a joy btw.

Wes

'Don't know about it, Wes, and I've never machined it. If it's as
advertised, it must be something like 12L14 is to 1214.

If you try it, please let us know how it is.


I think I'm going to turn it into bolts for my RGG gatling gun. I turned
some 1144 today
at work. That was pretty nice to work with.

Now, what in the HELL are you going to do with a Gatling gun? Are you doing
Civil War re-enactments, or are you joining the Michigan Militia? g


Not sure how this thread got brought back to life.

Somebody just checks in every once in a while, probably.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
"Ed wrote:

Yup, that's been my experience with it, too. I use it because I happen
to
have a couple of bars of normalized 4140 that were given to me, and
I've
used it for a number of little shaft jobs, turning it with what is
probably
M2 -- my ancient stash of Crucible Rex (no number) -- on a 64-year-old
South
Bend 10L, with a rocker (lantern) toolpost. It cuts nicely.


Is 41L40 much different that 4140? Reason I asked, is I ordered a piece
of that to make
something and got impatient when I saw it wasn't going to make it to me
until 1/4/2010. I
really hate turning 1.25" dia stock into 9/16" dia stock but I didn't
feel
like waiting.
12L14 is a joy btw.

Wes

'Don't know about it, Wes, and I've never machined it. If it's as
advertised, it must be something like 12L14 is to 1214.

If you try it, please let us know how it is.



41L40 has lead in it to make machining easier. It is not recommended to
weld because of the lead. 4140 can be easy or hard to cut depending on
the sulfur content. I think the max allowable sulfur is .2% The more
sulfur the harder it is to weld it, but the easier it is to machine it. If
you get a piece with no sulfur in it machining will be miserable.

John

Huh. It's interesting that a strict alloy like 4140 would allow enough
difference in sulfur to have much effect on machineability. It's not
something I have a lot of experience with, and most that I've turned
probably all came from the same batch.



I learned about the sulfur from hard experience. I was running a job
making pins from 4140 and the job was going good. I would make about 500
at a run. Well one run was giving me a lot of grief. busting inserts,
not holding size, and a bunch of other problems. I tested the hardness
and checked the certs. I had the metal assayed and it agreed with the
certs papers. The only thing different in this batch of material was
that it had absolutely no sulfur content in it. ( it came from Romania)
I guess the sulfur gives the necessary lubrication to make cutting it
easy.


John

"John" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
"Ed wrote:

Yup, that's been my experience with it, too. I use it because I
happen
to
have a couple of bars of normalized 4140 that were given to me, and
I've
used it for a number of little shaft jobs, turning it with what is
probably
M2 -- my ancient stash of Crucible Rex (no number) -- on a
64-year-old
South
Bend 10L, with a rocker (lantern) toolpost. It cuts nicely.


Is 41L40 much different that 4140? Reason I asked, is I ordered a
piece
of that to make
something and got impatient when I saw it wasn't going to make it to
me
until 1/4/2010. I
really hate turning 1.25" dia stock into 9/16" dia stock but I didn't
feel
like waiting.
12L14 is a joy btw.

Wes

'Don't know about it, Wes, and I've never machined it. If it's as
advertised, it must be something like 12L14 is to 1214.

If you try it, please let us know how it is.



41L40 has lead in it to make machining easier. It is not recommended to
weld because of the lead. 4140 can be easy or hard to cut depending on
the sulfur content. I think the max allowable sulfur is .2% The more
sulfur the harder it is to weld it, but the easier it is to machine it.
If
you get a piece with no sulfur in it machining will be miserable.

John

Huh. It's interesting that a strict alloy like 4140 would allow enough
difference in sulfur to have much effect on machineability. It's not
something I have a lot of experience with, and most that I've turned
probably all came from the same batch.



I learned about the sulfur from hard experience. I was running a job
making pins from 4140 and the job was going good. I would make about 500
at a run. Well one run was giving me a lot of grief. busting inserts, not
holding size, and a bunch of other problems. I tested the hardness and
checked the certs. I had the metal assayed and it agreed with the certs
papers. The only thing different in this batch of material was that it had
absolutely no sulfur content in it. ( it came from Romania) I guess the
sulfur gives the necessary lubrication to make cutting it easy.


John

Yes, and it doesn't take much sulfur. There are two ways to introduce it
into a steel alloy, and one method, called "microalloying," produces a big
gain in machineability with small amounts of sulfur. But it doesn't just
happen by dumping in some sulfur. I don't remember what the microalloying is
all about, but it requires a specific process.

Lead and bismuth are other elements added to improve machineability. And
some screw-machine stock, made for applications where lead and sulfur can't
be tolerated, gets a machineability boost from the addition of calcium. In
the late '70s, calcium-containing alloys became popular for making a lot of
automobile parts.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
"Ed wrote:


wrote in message
...
"Ed wrote:

Yup, that's been my experience with it, too. I use it because I happen
to
have a couple of bars of normalized 4140 that were given to me, and I've
used it for a number of little shaft jobs, turning it with what is
probably
M2 -- my ancient stash of Crucible Rex (no number) -- on a 64-year-old
South
Bend 10L, with a rocker (lantern) toolpost. It cuts nicely.


Is 41L40 much different that 4140? Reason I asked, is I ordered a piece
of that to make
something and got impatient when I saw it wasn't going to make it to me
until 1/4/2010. I
really hate turning 1.25" dia stock into 9/16" dia stock but I didn't
feel
like waiting.
12L14 is a joy btw.

Wes

'Don't know about it, Wes, and I've never machined it. If it's as
advertised, it must be something like 12L14 is to 1214.

If you try it, please let us know how it is.


I think I'm going to turn it into bolts for my RGG gatling gun. I turned
some 1144 today
at work. That was pretty nice to work with.

Now, what in the HELL are you going to do with a Gatling gun? Are you doing
Civil War re-enactments, or are you joining the Michigan Militia?g


Not sure how this thread got brought back to life.

Somebody just checks in every once in a while, probably.


It was me not paying attention to the dates of the last post. The
bandsaw axle sort of got my attention. I bought a DoAll model C-80 out
of the scrap yard for 400 bucks a while ago and had to make new spindles
for it. The bearings had spun on the axles and they had to be replaced
as well as the bearings. The metal I used was from some of the scrap
of the pins I made of the 4140. I still have a barrel full of the out
of tol. pins accumulated over the years. I just used another piece today
to make up a lathe chuck wrench. By the way to get a good finish on the
metal you have to take at least ten thou. per side and turn at least 300
ft/min.


John


John

"John" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
"Ed wrote:


wrote in message
...
"Ed wrote:

Yup, that's been my experience with it, too. I use it because I
happen
to
have a couple of bars of normalized 4140 that were given to me, and
I've
used it for a number of little shaft jobs, turning it with what is
probably
M2 -- my ancient stash of Crucible Rex (no number) -- on a
64-year-old
South
Bend 10L, with a rocker (lantern) toolpost. It cuts nicely.


Is 41L40 much different that 4140? Reason I asked, is I ordered a
piece
of that to make
something and got impatient when I saw it wasn't going to make it to
me
until 1/4/2010. I
really hate turning 1.25" dia stock into 9/16" dia stock but I didn't
feel
like waiting.
12L14 is a joy btw.

Wes

'Don't know about it, Wes, and I've never machined it. If it's as
advertised, it must be something like 12L14 is to 1214.

If you try it, please let us know how it is.


I think I'm going to turn it into bolts for my RGG gatling gun. I
turned
some 1144 today
at work. That was pretty nice to work with.

Now, what in the HELL are you going to do with a Gatling gun? Are you
doing
Civil War re-enactments, or are you joining the Michigan Militia?g


Not sure how this thread got brought back to life.

Somebody just checks in every once in a while, probably.


It was me not paying attention to the dates of the last post. The bandsaw
axle sort of got my attention. I bought a DoAll model C-80 out of the
scrap yard for 400 bucks a while ago and had to make new spindles for it.
The bearings had spun on the axles and they had to be replaced as well as
the bearings. The metal I used was from some of the scrap of the pins I
made of the 4140. I still have a barrel full of the out of tol. pins
accumulated over the years. I just used another piece today to make up a
lathe chuck wrench. By the way to get a good finish on the metal you have
to take at least ten thou. per side and turn at least 300 ft/min.


John

Is that the 4140 without sulfur? It's been so long since I've turned that
alloy that I can hardly remember it.

--
Ed Huntress

It was me not paying attention to the dates of the last post. The bandsaw
axle sort of got my attention. I bought a DoAll model C-80 out of the
scrap yard for 400 bucks a while ago and had to make new spindles for it.
The bearings had spun on the axles and they had to be replaced as well as
the bearings. The metal I used was from some of the scrap of the pins I
made of the 4140. I still have a barrel full of the out of tol. pins
accumulated over the years. I just used another piece today to make up a
lathe chuck wrench. By the way to get a good finish on the metal you have
to take at least ten thou. per side and turn at least 300 ft/min.


John

Is that the 4140 without sulfur? It's been so long since I've turned that
alloy that I can hardly remember it.



I switched suppliers after that bad batch and had no more problems with
cutting the metal. We had to supply certifications so I kept an eye on
the sulfur content and made sure it was always on the high end of the
limits. It ran on the high end of the permitted amounts, I only machined
it and didn't weld on it. I think the percentage ran about .18 At that
percentage it would run well at those speeds. The part we ran required
holding +/- .0005 in. on 6 inch turn and once the machine stabilized it
ran all day with almost no scrap. The only problem was the air chuck
would sometimes not hold the piece properly and it would slip if we had
the feed or rpm running too high. I made thousands of those parts.

"John" wrote in message
...


It was me not paying attention to the dates of the last post. The
bandsaw
axle sort of got my attention. I bought a DoAll model C-80 out of the
scrap yard for 400 bucks a while ago and had to make new spindles for
it.
The bearings had spun on the axles and they had to be replaced as well
as
the bearings. The metal I used was from some of the scrap of the pins
I
made of the 4140. I still have a barrel full of the out of tol. pins
accumulated over the years. I just used another piece today to make up a
lathe chuck wrench. By the way to get a good finish on the metal you
have
to take at least ten thou. per side and turn at least 300 ft/min.


John

Is that the 4140 without sulfur? It's been so long since I've turned that
alloy that I can hardly remember it.



I switched suppliers after that bad batch and had no more problems with
cutting the metal. We had to supply certifications so I kept an eye on
the sulfur content and made sure it was always on the high end of the
limits. It ran on the high end of the permitted amounts, I only machined
it and didn't weld on it. I think the percentage ran about .18 At that
percentage it would run well at those speeds. The part we ran required
holding +/- .0005 in. on 6 inch turn and once the machine stabilized it
ran all day with almost no scrap. The only problem was the air chuck
would sometimes not hold the piece properly and it would slip if we had
the feed or rpm running too high. I made thousands of those parts.

Machining a lot of metal in batch- or continuous production really gives one
a feel for subtleties that we don't usually pick up in ordinary hobby
machining. If you made thousands, you must really know the material.

Note what Don reported about the standard for sulfur content in 4140 --
0.040% maximum. Another thing that shows up is slight "modifications" to
standard alloy specifications, sometimes done for a good reason. You may
have run into one of those circumstances. I've heard of 4000-series alloys
that contained more chromium and less carbon than the specs require, for the
purpose of meeting the elongation specification, which apparently is not
easy.

But, like most technical things about materials, I haven't spoken to
metallurgical engineers for decades. It used to be a major part of my job.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

I think I'm going to turn it into bolts for my RGG gatling gun. I turned
some 1144 today
at work. That was pretty nice to work with.

Now, what in the HELL are you going to do with a Gatling gun? Are you doing
Civil War re-enactments, or are you joining the Michigan Militia? g


It is only a .22 . Maybe mount motors and a search/acquisition radar and it could be a
Phalanx Close-In Weapons System (CIWS) for Michigan Mosquitoes. Caliber might be a bit
small though.

Wes

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

I think I'm going to turn it into bolts for my RGG gatling gun. I
turned
some 1144 today
at work. That was pretty nice to work with.

Now, what in the HELL are you going to do with a Gatling gun? Are you
doing
Civil War re-enactments, or are you joining the Michigan Militia? g


It is only a .22 . Maybe mount motors and a search/acquisition radar and
it could be a
Phalanx Close-In Weapons System (CIWS) for Michigan Mosquitoes. Caliber
might be a bit
small though.

Wes

I'll bet you're going to be hell on rabbits. They'll be pre-tenderized. g

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

I'll bet you're going to be hell on rabbits. They'll be pre-tenderized. g

The sad thing is, rabbits are not very plentiful where I live. We have too many coyotes
now. I wish I had the patience for hunting coyote.

Wes