I have a chainsaw where the chain wants to not stay in the bottom of
the blade. There were some notches (2 sets) in the drive gear/sprocket
(clutch hub) so I replaced that. I figured once it moves over to the
outboard notch, the chain wouldn't stay in the blade.
Once a motorcycle chain stretches, it will wear out the sprockets
faster. The chainsaw chain stretches like crazy compared to a
motorcycle. The chain is driven differently on the chainsaw though.
So like on a motorcycle should the chain be replace when the sprocket
is
replaced?

The saw worked fine with the chain out of the blade. I do have a groove
in the plastic cover that holds down the blade.

Thanks,
Wayne D.

"Wayne" wrote in message
...
I have a chainsaw where the chain wants to not stay in the bottom of
the blade. There were some notches (2 sets) in the drive gear/sprocket
(clutch hub) so I replaced that. I figured once it moves over to the
outboard notch, the chain wouldn't stay in the blade.
Once a motorcycle chain stretches, it will wear out the sprockets
faster. The chainsaw chain stretches like crazy compared to a
motorcycle. The chain is driven differently on the chainsaw though.
So like on a motorcycle should the chain be replace when the sprocket is
replaced?

The saw worked fine with the chain out of the blade. I do have a groove
in the plastic cover that holds down the blade.

Thanks,
Wayne D.

Are you calling the bar the blade? The bar is the grooved flat carrier of
the chain that has the slot all around to hold the chain in place. I would
think that the sprocket would be made of hardened steel, and last through
several chains. If you get excessive sprocket wear, something's not right.
Check to make sure your oiler is working and not plugged up. A lot of
people use their chainsaw and never blow it out with air, or disassemble
slightly to clean out the shavings, and they can become hard packed or
freeze, and all bets are off. Disassemble frequently, and blow it out, or
at least brush it out, and make sure the oiling channel is free flowing.
When I use mine, I have a scrench (T handled screwdriver with two sized hex
sockets), and I adjust the tension frequently as needed. Watch for any
heating up and burning or scorch marks on the bar, as that indicates a lack
of lubrication by the oiler.

Steve

Wayne, I'm not sure what the question is. Yes, chainsaws get hot,
the chain expands, it requires tightening the blade several times
while out working. No, there is no requirement to change a chain
until it is dull. As long as it is making sawdust it is fine.
Most chainsaw blades are filed so they are "safer" and don't take
large bites. This is controlled by the height of the rakers. A
chain might be sharp, but not taking very large chips that will
require filing the rakers down lower - some pros keep the rakers
quite a bit lower to have a more aggressive chain.

When tensioning the chain, hold the blade up and tension until the
chain has slack, but the drive links don't come completely out of
the blade slot on the bottom of the chain. It is quite normal to
have gouges, nicks, and grooves in the drive sprocket. Make sure
you are spraying a small bit of oil while cutting - it helps
clean, cool, and lube the chain.

--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Wayne" wrote in message
...
I have a chainsaw where the chain wants to not stay in the bottom
of
the blade. There were some notches (2 sets) in the drive
gear/sprocket
(clutch hub) so I replaced that. I figured once it moves over to
the
outboard notch, the chain wouldn't stay in the blade.
Once a motorcycle chain stretches, it will wear out the
sprockets
faster. The chainsaw chain stretches like crazy compared to a
motorcycle. The chain is driven differently on the chainsaw
though.
So like on a motorcycle should the chain be replace when the
sprocket is
replaced?

The saw worked fine with the chain out of the blade. I do have a
groove
in the plastic cover that holds down the blade.

Thanks,
Wayne D.

On Dec 25, 2:26*pm, Wayne wrote:
I have a chainsaw where the chain wants to not stay in the bottom of
the blade. There were some notches (2 sets) in the drive gear/sprocket
(clutch hub) so I replaced that. I figured once it moves over to the
outboard notch, the chain wouldn't stay in the blade.
Once a motorcycle chain stretches, it will wear out the sprockets
faster. The chainsaw chain stretches like crazy compared to a
motorcycle. The chain is driven differently on the chainsaw though.
So like on a motorcycle should the chain be replace when the sprocket
is
replaced?

The saw worked fine with the chain out of the blade. I do have a groove
in the plastic cover that holds down the blade.

Thanks,
Wayne D.

On a chain saw, the chain will not wear out before you have sharpened
it to the condition it is no longer usable and then replace it. After
a dozen or more chains, the bar will have worn on the bottom and on
the tip to where it will need to be replaced. I have an old Homelite
saw with the engine worn out that has never had a sprocket replaced
and has had only one new bar.

All chain saws have a tank for bar oil. This is very thick oil and
will slowly leak out onto the chain so it will lubricate the bar
channel. Some saws also have a pump for the bar oil so you can
manually apply the oil, like when you first start the saw, or are
cutting into dirty wood or pitchy wood.

Sounds to me like your saw it not getting any bar oil and/or the chain
is not the correct one for the saw. The drive sprocket will get chewed
up if the chain is slack and is allowed to jump off the bar and hang
up in the drive sprocket. Other than that, anything that would damage
a sprocket will get blown out and away by the sawdust.

Paul

On Dec 26, 12:40*am, " wrote:
On Dec 25, 2:26*pm, Wayne wrote:
.....
Sounds to me like your saw it not getting any bar oil and/or the chain
is not the correct one for the saw.
....

Point the tip of the bar at a clean smooth surface like the end of a
freshly cut log and rev up the engine. You should see a stripe of oil
build up on the wood in a few seconds.

jsw

Originally I had the chain too tight. I thought maybe the groove in the
sprocket were caused by that. I'm adjusting it properly now. Oil is
properly flowing to the chain.

DanG wrote on 12/25/2009 :
Wayne, I'm not sure what the question is. Yes, chainsaws get hot, the chain
expands, it requires tightening the blade several times while out working.
No, there is no requirement to change a chain until it is dull. As long as
it is making sawdust it is fine. Most chainsaw blades are filed so they are
"safer" and don't take large bites. This is controlled by the height of the
rakers. A chain might be sharp, but not taking very large chips that will
require filing the rakers down lower - some pros keep the rakers quite a bit
lower to have a more aggressive chain.

When tensioning the chain, hold the blade up and tension until the chain has
slack, but the drive links don't come completely out of the blade slot on the
bottom of the chain. It is quite normal to have gouges, nicks, and grooves
in the drive sprocket. Make sure you are spraying a small bit of oil while
cutting - it helps clean, cool, and lube the chain.

--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Wayne" wrote in message
...
I have a chainsaw where the chain wants to not stay in the bottom of
the blade. There were some notches (2 sets) in the drive gear/sprocket
(clutch hub) so I replaced that. I figured once it moves over to the
outboard notch, the chain wouldn't stay in the blade.
Once a motorcycle chain stretches, it will wear out the sprockets
faster. The chainsaw chain stretches like crazy compared to a
motorcycle. The chain is driven differently on the chainsaw though.
So like on a motorcycle should the chain be replace when the sprocket is
replaced?

The saw worked fine with the chain out of the blade. I do have a groove
in the plastic cover that holds down the blade.

Thanks,
Wayne D.

I keep the chainsaw cleaned up with compressed air after using it.
I check to make sure oil is coming out after reassembly.
My problem is the chain likes to ride out of the bar on the bottom and
then continues back into the bar. If I don't turn the saw over and
look, I don't even know anything is wrong.

I took it to the dealer to get it repaired.
They said a bad clutch could cause that problem. When I got it back
from
them they said everything was fine and charged me to adjust the carb.

So I'm now trying to figure this out on my own.
I put a picture in the dropbox (csgroove1.jpg) of the groove that is
created in what the manufacturer calls the sprocket guard. It is the
cover that holds the blade down.

I don't ever let my chain get to loose. It has never been thrown.
Some other guy's saw I see the chain hanging down. Another guy doesn't
do anything to his until the chain gets thrown.

Wayne D.

On Dec 26, 12:40*am, " wrote:
On Dec 25, 2:26*pm, Wayne wrote:
.....
Sounds to me like your saw it not getting any bar oil and/or the chain
is not the correct one for the saw.
...

Point the tip of the bar at a clean smooth surface like the end of a
freshly cut log and rev up the engine. You should see a stripe of oil
build up on the wood in a few seconds.

jsw

"Wayne" wrote in message
...
I have a chainsaw where the chain wants to not stay in the bottom of
the blade. There were some notches (2 sets) in the drive gear/sprocket
(clutch hub) so I replaced that. I figured once it moves over to the
outboard notch, the chain wouldn't stay in the blade.
Once a motorcycle chain stretches, it will wear out the sprockets
faster. The chainsaw chain stretches like crazy compared to a
motorcycle. The chain is driven differently on the chainsaw though.
So like on a motorcycle should the chain be replace when the sprocket is
replaced?

The saw worked fine with the chain out of the blade. I do have a groove
in the plastic cover that holds down the blade.

Thanks,
Wayne D.

Are you calling the bar the blade? The bar is the grooved flat carrier of
the chain that has the slot all around to hold the chain in place. I would
think that the sprocket would be made of hardened steel, and last through
several chains. If you get excessive sprocket wear, something's not right.
Check to make sure your oiler is working and not plugged up. A lot of people
use their chainsaw and never blow it out with air, or disassemble slightly to
clean out the shavings, and they can become hard packed or freeze, and all
bets are off. Disassemble frequently, and blow it out, or at least brush it
out, and make sure the oiling channel is free flowing. When I use mine, I
have a scrench (T handled screwdriver with two sized hex sockets), and I
adjust the tension frequently as needed. Watch for any heating up and
burning or scorch marks on the bar, as that indicates a lack of lubrication
by the oiler.

Steve

Um, I meant bar... I knew that!

Wayne D.

Well, as for your original question, yes, it is generally better to
change sprocket and chains as a set - whether your set of chains is two
or six. Rotate through the chains as they need resharpening, and when
the whole set is worn out, replace the chains and the sprocket.

The size of your set depends mostly on how much work you are doing, and
somewhat on how much filing .vs. grinding you do for sharpening (filing
can be done in place, grinding usually means swapping the chain off for
a sharp one, grinding it, and then it's on the "sharp" side of the set).

Even if you are regrinding regularly, you should file with every tank of
gas, unless you are cutting some mythical clean, non-abrasive wood that
does not cause chains to dull. More often if needed. If not very dull,
it need not be much of a filing.

BTW - if there is sawdust the chain is dull. There should be chips. Dust
is dust, chips are small chunks of wood the width of the chain, length
varies. If you are getting dust, change chains.

Saw chain heats up, especially when dull - this makes it longer - it's
not actually stretch, but it may mean you need to tighten once the saw
warms up - in which case you should slack off at any long breaks (lunch
or the end of the day) since the chain will cool and shrink and get
very, very tight if adjusted to run well when hot. If running very hot
due to being dull, you should change for a sharp one or sharpen it,
rather than fiddling with the tension. Likewise make sure there is
enough bar oil being delivered to the chain when running, and fill bar
oil every time you fill fuel.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

On Dec 26, 4:23*pm, Wayne wrote:
"Wayne" wrote in message
...
I have a chainsaw where the chain wants to not stay in the bottom of
the blade. There were some notches (2 sets) in the drive gear/sprocket
(clutch hub) so I replaced that. I figured once it moves over to the
outboard notch, the chain wouldn't stay in the blade.
Once a motorcycle chain stretches, it will wear out the sprockets
faster. The chainsaw chain stretches like crazy compared to a
motorcycle. The chain is driven differently on the chainsaw though.
So like on a motorcycle should the chain be replace when the sprocket is
replaced?

The saw worked fine with the chain out of the blade. I do have a groove
in the plastic cover that holds down the blade.

Thanks,
Wayne D.

Are you calling the bar the blade? *The bar is the grooved flat carrier of
the chain that has the slot all around to hold the chain in place. *I would
think that the sprocket would be made of hardened steel, and last through
several chains. *If you get excessive sprocket wear, something's not right.
Check to make sure your oiler is working and not plugged up. *A lot of people
use their chainsaw and never blow it out with air, or disassemble slightly to
clean out the shavings, and they can become hard packed or freeze, and all
bets are off. *Disassemble frequently, and blow it out, or at least brush it
out, and make sure the oiling channel is free flowing. When I use mine, I
have a scrench (T handled screwdriver with two sized hex sockets), and I
adjust the tension frequently as needed. *Watch for any heating up and
burning or scorch marks on the bar, as that indicates a lack of lubrication
by the oiler.

Steve

Um, I meant bar... I knew that!

Wayne D.

Well, sounds like you are doing everything right. If you adjust the
chain tension when it's cold, it should follow the groove in the bar.
both top and bottom. Sounds like the chain is coming out of the bottom
groove in the bar when it's hot. This is normal and like you said, it
reenters the groove before it gets to the sprocket. The only time this
will cause a problem with sawing is if you get the bar in a bind so
the chain doesn't return to the groove and hits the sprocket at an
angle. This is what throws the chain. But you said the chain has not
come off.

Everyone should experience a chain coming off sometime in their life!
Wear leather gloves.

Just tighten the chain after every time you sharpen it and should be
ok. Look at other peoples chain saws and see what their sprocket looks
like.

Paul

"Wayne" wrote in message
...
Originally I had the chain too tight. I thought maybe the groove in the
sprocket were caused by that. I'm adjusting it properly now. Oil is
properly flowing to the chain.


Loosen the chain until it really sags under the bar enough to feel the
bottom of the bar with your finger. DO THIS CAREFULLY, as there may be a
razor edge there. It should be square sided around the bottom of the bar,
that is at right angles. If there is a T where the too tight chain has
deformed the metal, then it may have worn into the groove enough for the
chain now to be riding on the bottom of the groove, instead of the sides.
You could file off the T if there is one there, but check the depth of the
groove, and the depth needed for your chain to run without hitting the
bottom of the groove. If it has worn off a lot of metal, replace the bar.
With the lack of lubrication, the increased wear from tension, plus the dirt
and abrasives passed through there, you can smoke a bar real fast. When I
adjust my chain, I like it to hang about 1/8" drooping under the bar, but
not so that the teeth come out of the groove. Check after tightening the
nuts, because that always seems to make it move one way or the other. Have
a scrench in your pocket, and check often. Use the point of the scrench to
dig out sawdust from wherever your oil hole comes out, if you can reach it
on your model of saw.

Steve

"Wayne" wrote in message
...
"Wayne" wrote in message
...
I have a chainsaw where the chain wants to not stay in the bottom of
the blade. There were some notches (2 sets) in the drive gear/sprocket
(clutch hub) so I replaced that. I figured once it moves over to the
outboard notch, the chain wouldn't stay in the blade.
Once a motorcycle chain stretches, it will wear out the sprockets
faster. The chainsaw chain stretches like crazy compared to a
motorcycle. The chain is driven differently on the chainsaw though.
So like on a motorcycle should the chain be replace when the sprocket is
replaced?

The saw worked fine with the chain out of the blade. I do have a groove
in the plastic cover that holds down the blade.

Thanks,
Wayne D.

Are you calling the bar the blade? The bar is the grooved flat carrier
of the chain that has the slot all around to hold the chain in place. I
would think that the sprocket would be made of hardened steel, and last
through several chains. If you get excessive sprocket wear, something's
not right. Check to make sure your oiler is working and not plugged up.
A lot of people use their chainsaw and never blow it out with air, or
disassemble slightly to clean out the shavings, and they can become hard
packed or freeze, and all bets are off. Disassemble frequently, and blow
it out, or at least brush it out, and make sure the oiling channel is
free flowing. When I use mine, I have a scrench (T handled screwdriver
with two sized hex sockets), and I adjust the tension frequently as
needed. Watch for any heating up and burning or scorch marks on the bar,
as that indicates a lack of lubrication by the oiler.

Steve

Um, I meant bar... I knew that!

Wayne D.

On some saws, when the bottom of the bar becomes worn, you can flip it over
and have another life in the bar. Do that finger check thing I described in
the other post.

I thought you meant bar, but never a-ss-ume.

Steve

"Ecnerwal" wrote

Likewise make sure there is
enough bar oil being delivered to the chain when running, and fill bar
oil every time you fill fuel.

Got a gallon of bar oil on sale the other day. A little over ten bucks.
Ace sells it for six bucks a quart. Sheesh.

Steve

It is a general bad concept to blow with pressure particles off
because you might blow particles into small cracks. Same goes
with the lathe and mill.

Martin

Wayne wrote:
I keep the chainsaw cleaned up with compressed air after using it.
I check to make sure oil is coming out after reassembly.
My problem is the chain likes to ride out of the bar on the bottom and
then continues back into the bar. If I don't turn the saw over and look,
I don't even know anything is wrong.

I took it to the dealer to get it repaired.
They said a bad clutch could cause that problem. When I got it back from
them they said everything was fine and charged me to adjust the carb.

So I'm now trying to figure this out on my own.
I put a picture in the dropbox (csgroove1.jpg) of the groove that is
created in what the manufacturer calls the sprocket guard. It is the
cover that holds the blade down.

I don't ever let my chain get to loose. It has never been thrown.
Some other guy's saw I see the chain hanging down. Another guy doesn't
do anything to his until the chain gets thrown.

Wayne D.

On Dec 26, 12:40 am, " wrote:
On Dec 25, 2:26 pm, Wayne wrote:
.....
Sounds to me like your saw it not getting any bar oil and/or the chain
is not the correct one for the saw.
...

Point the tip of the bar at a clean smooth surface like the end of a
freshly cut log and rev up the engine. You should see a stripe of oil
build up on the wood in a few seconds.

jsw

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:30:30 -0800, the infamous "Steve B"
scrawled the following:


"Ecnerwal" wrote

Likewise make sure there is
enough bar oil being delivered to the chain when running, and fill bar
oil every time you fill fuel.

Got a gallon of bar oil on sale the other day. A little over ten bucks.
Ace sells it for six bucks a quart. Sheesh.

Steve, it frequently goes on sale for ~$4 at BiMart here in the PNW.

--
REMEMBER: The sooner you fall behind,
the more time you'll have to catch up!

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
It is a general bad concept to blow with pressure particles off
because you might blow particles into small cracks. Same goes
with the lathe and mill.

Martin


I have trouble digging out the gunk because there are so many tiny places in
there especially around the clutch, the kickback brake, and sprocket. It is
impossible to get the stuff out, even if you use dental picks to get in
there and loosen it. I do see your point, but I really do a thorough
cleaning, even having made a support stand on a tire rim for just this.
Have had no problem with small cracks yet, as they lead to nowhere. Except
for the one tiny channel leading to the oiler, and that cleans out with a
small piece of piano wire.

Steve

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:30:30 -0800, the infamous "Steve B"
scrawled the following:


"Ecnerwal" wrote

Likewise make sure there is
enough bar oil being delivered to the chain when running, and fill bar
oil every time you fill fuel.

Got a gallon of bar oil on sale the other day. A little over ten bucks.
Ace sells it for six bucks a quart. Sheesh.

Steve, it frequently goes on sale for ~$4 at BiMart here in the PNW.

Still, ten is better than sixteen.

Steve

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:30:30 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Ecnerwal" wrote

Likewise make sure there is
enough bar oil being delivered to the chain when running, and fill bar
oil every time you fill fuel.

Got a gallon of bar oil on sale the other day. A little over ten bucks.
Ace sells it for six bucks a quart. Sheesh.

Steve

And you can get it at Autozone for 99c a quart. Or run your used engine
oil through a Mr Coffee Filter and fill up the tank.

its not like its going to do anything besides cool the chain as its
being thrown off.

Gunner

"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the
means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not
making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of
it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different
countries, that the more public provisions were made for the
poor the less they provided for themselves, and of course became
poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the
more they did for themselves, and became richer." -- Benjamin
Franklin, /The Encouragement of Idleness/, 1766

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 22:17:25 -0800, the infamous "Steve B"
scrawled the following:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:30:30 -0800, the infamous "Steve B"
scrawled the following:


"Ecnerwal" wrote

Likewise make sure there is
enough bar oil being delivered to the chain when running, and fill bar
oil every time you fill fuel.

Got a gallon of bar oil on sale the other day. A little over ten bucks.
Ace sells it for six bucks a quart. Sheesh.

Steve, it frequently goes on sale for ~$4 at BiMart here in the PNW.

Still, ten is better than sixteen.

Or $24 at Ace. Egad! "Now with PURE GOLD flakes inside!"?

--
"I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, natural, wholesome things
that money can buy." --Tom Clancy

Try ether starting spray, or brake cleaner. Both work well.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Steve B"
wrote in message ...



I have trouble digging out the gunk because there are so
many tiny places in
there especially around the clutch, the kickback brake, and
sprocket. It is
impossible to get the stuff out, even if you use dental
picks to get in
there and loosen it. I do see your point, but I really do a
thorough
cleaning, even having made a support stand on a tire rim for
just this.
Have had no problem with small cracks yet, as they lead to
nowhere. Except
for the one tiny channel leading to the oiler, and that
cleans out with a
small piece of piano wire.

Steve

With one free round of .45 acp at no extra charge!

I've heard of people using used crankcase oil instead of bar
oil. Poor lubricant, and the used oil wears the bar and
chain rapidly. False economy for sure.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Larry Jaques"
wrote in message

Steve, it frequently goes on sale for ~$4 at BiMart here
in the PNW.

Still, ten is better than sixteen.

Or $24 at Ace. Egad! "Now with PURE GOLD flakes inside!"?

--
"I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, natural,
wholesome things
that money can
--Tom Clancy

In article ,
"Steve B" wrote:

On some saws, when the bottom of the bar becomes worn, you can flip it over
and have another life in the bar. Do that finger check thing I described in
the other post.

IME, most are reversible (just clear out the set of oil holes that were
not being used in the other position of the bar), and I flip mine every
time I change a chain.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 22:17:25 -0800, the infamous "Steve B"
scrawled the following:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:30:30 -0800, the infamous "Steve B"
scrawled the following:


"Ecnerwal" wrote

Likewise make sure there is
enough bar oil being delivered to the chain when running, and fill bar
oil every time you fill fuel.

Got a gallon of bar oil on sale the other day. A little over ten bucks.
Ace sells it for six bucks a quart. Sheesh.

Steve, it frequently goes on sale for ~$4 at BiMart here in the PNW.

Still, ten is better than sixteen.

Or $24 at Ace. Egad! "Now with PURE GOLD flakes inside!"?

--
"I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, natural, wholesome
things
that money can buy." --Tom Clancy

Our Ace is ridiculous. $2.49 for a switch plate I can get for $.97 at HD,
$4.49 for a lure I can buy elsewhere for $3.19. But sometimes you just have
to have it, and it saves you 20 miles of driving. Only thing they have that
is reasonable are earthworms, $2 a dozen, and that's the same price
everywhere. But this year, I'm doing an area in the garden and I won't be
buying any more earthworms for fishing.

Steve

Steve

On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 09:44:33 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

With one free round of .45 acp at no extra charge!

I've heard of people using used crankcase oil instead of bar
oil. Poor lubricant, and the used oil wears the bar and
chain rapidly. False economy for sure.

Did they filter it before running it through the saw?

Gunner


--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Larry Jaques"
wrote in message

Steve, it frequently goes on sale for ~$4 at BiMart here
in the PNW.

Still, ten is better than sixteen.

Or $24 at Ace. Egad! "Now with PURE GOLD flakes inside!"?

"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the
means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not
making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of
it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different
countries, that the more public provisions were made for the
poor the less they provided for themselves, and of course became
poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the
more they did for themselves, and became richer." -- Benjamin
Franklin, /The Encouragement of Idleness/, 1766