Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

DL

TwoGuns wrote:
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

I've had the misfortune of calling 911 a few times
over the last 30 years. My experience is that the
dispatchers are rote trained to dispatch and nothing
else. It probably never entered the dispatcher's
mind to solve the problem if he/she had never been
trained to.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

No quarrel there. I think in most cars, a *hard*
*sustained* braking effort would probably also
work. Both feet on the pedal and don't let up
until it grinds to a stop.

In article
,
TwoGuns wrote:

Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

DL

The driver was also an off duty CHP officer, ???????
What training do they get?

CP

TwoGuns wrote:
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

Or just switch off the engine.

Chris

On Nov 25, 7:13*pm, Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Or just switch off the engine.

Chris

In a panic it would be difficult to switch it one faint click to kill
the engine, and not two clicks and lock the steering.

jsw

On Nov 25, 6:13*pm, Christopher Tidy
wrote:
TwoGuns wrote:
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

Or just switch off the engine.

Chris

Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
hit send before thinking about it Chris.

DL

TwoGuns writes:

On Nov 25, 6:13*pm, Christopher Tidy
wrote:
TwoGuns wrote:
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

Or just switch off the engine.

Chris

Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
hit send before thinking about it Chris.

There's an "ignition off, lock not on yet" position. But as somebody
else pointed out, trying to get that position in those circumstances
would be asking a lot.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

This happened to me once (gas pedal stuck under a mat). I was driving
a Ford Taurus back then. I had about 1-2 seconds to think about it.

My solution was to turn off the engine with the key.

I almost **** my pants, as this happened in a parking lot full of
people.

i

On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 00:13:43 +0000, Christopher Tidy
wrote:

TwoGuns wrote:
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

Or just switch off the engine.

Chris


On some cars..oddly enough..you cant do that when its in gear.

Which I thought was very counter safety

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

snip

Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
hit send before thinking about it Chris.


There's an "ignition off, lock not on yet" position. But as somebody
else pointed out, trying to get that position in those circumstances
would be asking a lot.

I did think about it, briefly. Can't say as I've ever tried it.
Automatic cars are uncommon here. Having a clutch pedal makes the answer
obvious. Without it, turning off the engine was my gut reaction. Maybe
not the best one, but a step in the right direction. Better than calling
911 on your mobile phone, I'd say.

By the way, Joe, did you get the message I sent about the database
project? Your suggestions were helpful; sorry it took me a long time to
reply.

Best wishes,

Chris

Christopher Tidy writes:

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

Or just switch off the engine.

That was not the only crash; just the best reported.

As has been detailed:

A) It was a loaner car; so he was not familiar with it.

B) It had a "keyless ignition" -- to "switch off the engine" you had to
HOLD the START button down for several seconds. Sorta like Windoze.

C) It was some "clutchless" transmission with gates that kept you from
moving into the "wrong" gear. It's not clear where neutral really was.

The issue I see is changing standard expected user interfaces without
enough training. B) is especially stoopid.

Suppose we suddenly made all the stop buttons in your shop green; and
reversed the thread on the chuck, and the lead screws...think you might
have an issue under pressure?




--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Gunner Asch writes:

Or just switch off the engine.

Chris


On some cars..oddly enough..you cant do that when its in gear.

Which I thought was very counter safety

I've never seen that -- I've seen many (in fact, I think it's standard)
in which you can't turn the key far enough to remove it with the
transmission in gear, but not one you can't turn off.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

TwoGuns writes:


Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
hit send before thinking about it Chris.

?? Every car I've worked on goes (ccw direction)

d) start
c) run
b) stop
a) remove keys/lock wheel.

with A blocked until you are in park.

But this car had NO key; just the keyless ignition button.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
TwoGuns writes:

On Nov 25, 6:13 pm, Christopher Tidy
wrote:
TwoGuns wrote:
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

They're blonde, attractive, can read and speak in front of a camera.

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.
PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.
Or just switch off the engine.

Chris
Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
hit send before thinking about it Chris.

There's an "ignition off, lock not on yet" position. But as somebody
else pointed out, trying to get that position in those circumstances
would be asking a lot.

According to an L.A. Times article, some Toyotas/Lexii use a Start
button rather than key position. That button has to be pushed and held
for about 4 seconds to kill the ignition. Repeatedly pushing the button
while panicking won't do it.
I think the accident car was a loaner. The driver may not have been
sufficiently familiar with it.

David Lesher wrote:
Christopher Tidy writes:


PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.


Or just switch off the engine.


That was not the only crash; just the best reported.

As has been detailed:

A) It was a loaner car; so he was not familiar with it.

B) It had a "keyless ignition" -- to "switch off the engine" you had to
HOLD the START button down for several seconds. Sorta like Windoze.

C) It was some "clutchless" transmission with gates that kept you from
moving into the "wrong" gear. It's not clear where neutral really was.

The issue I see is changing standard expected user interfaces without
enough training. B) is especially stoopid.

Suppose we suddenly made all the stop buttons in your shop green; and
reversed the thread on the chuck, and the lead screws...think you might
have an issue under pressure?

If the car was really that perversely designed, I don't blame the poor
guy. As I see it, your only remaining option is to figure out a way to
pull up the pedal. For once, maybe a lawsuit is deserved.

Or if you're Gunner, you take out your piece and shoot the engine :-).

Chris

"TwoGuns" wrote in message
...
On Nov 25, 6:13 pm, Christopher Tidy
wrote:
TwoGuns wrote:
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

Or just switch off the engine.

Chris

Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
hit send before thinking about it Chris.

DL

The engine will turn off on any car I have owned with the car in gear.
Unless the shift is in park, you can not lock the steering wheel. The fact
he was a CHP officer makes it seem we have some really stupid cops.

David Lesher wrote:
TwoGuns writes:


Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
hit send before thinking about it Chris.

?? Every car I've worked on goes (ccw direction)

d) start
c) run
b) stop
a) remove keys/lock wheel.

with A blocked until you are in park.

But this car had NO key; just the keyless ignition button.



"Tuen off the engine, Hal!"

before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the
car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required
holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was
no key to turn to make it go off -

"TwoGuns" wrote in message
...
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

DL

Bill Noble wrote:
before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts -
the car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off
required holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds
- there was no key to turn to make it go off -

There are going to be some heavy law suits over that...

Betcha

"cavelamb" wrote in message
m...
Bill Noble wrote:
before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the
car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off
required holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90
seconds - there was no key to turn to make it go off -

There are going to be some heavy law suits over that...

Betcha

probably, but lawsuits don't bring back the dead. One advantage of driving
a standard transmission car is that there is almost nothing that can prevent
you from disconnecting the engine from the drive train - you have both a
clutch and a shift lever (and the skill to use them).

"CalifBill" wrote:

The engine will turn off on any car I have owned with the car in gear.
Unless the shift is in park, you can not lock the steering wheel. The fact
he was a CHP officer makes it seem we have some really stupid cops.


On my car, I have to put it into park before the ignition lock will activate.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:53:04 +0000, Christopher Tidy
wrote:

David Lesher wrote:
Christopher Tidy writes:


PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.


Or just switch off the engine.


That was not the only crash; just the best reported.

As has been detailed:

A) It was a loaner car; so he was not familiar with it.

B) It had a "keyless ignition" -- to "switch off the engine" you had to
HOLD the START button down for several seconds. Sorta like Windoze.

C) It was some "clutchless" transmission with gates that kept you from
moving into the "wrong" gear. It's not clear where neutral really was.

The issue I see is changing standard expected user interfaces without
enough training. B) is especially stoopid.

Suppose we suddenly made all the stop buttons in your shop green; and
reversed the thread on the chuck, and the lead screws...think you might
have an issue under pressure?

If the car was really that perversely designed, I don't blame the poor
guy. As I see it, your only remaining option is to figure out a way to
pull up the pedal. For once, maybe a lawsuit is deserved.

Or if you're Gunner, you take out your piece and shoot the engine :-).

Chris


With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a
couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine.

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

In article ,
"Bill Noble" wrote:

"cavelamb" wrote in message
m...
Bill Noble wrote:
before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the
car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off
required holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90
seconds - there was no key to turn to make it go off -

There are going to be some heavy law suits over that...

Betcha

probably, but lawsuits don't bring back the dead. One advantage of driving
a standard transmission car is that there is almost nothing that can prevent
you from disconnecting the engine from the drive train - you have both a
clutch and a shift lever (and the skill to use them).


Ahhh... but with some sticks you can be surprised by the occasional
busted clutch cable.

I don't have one, but understand the emergency shutdown procedure for
Toyota products equipped with the start/stop button is to depress and
continuously hold this button for over 3 seconds. No amount of
'stabbing' at it will initiate a shutdown. The owners manuals supposedly
have a good bit on this subject, and suggest not actually doing an
emergency shutdown unless condition warrant.

Also, I hear Toyota products with the start/stop buttons are 'drive by
wire', at least as far as opening and closing of the actual throttle
valve is concerned. There is no direct pedal linkage or cable
assembly... the throttle is actuated via an electric actuator/servo
unit, controlled by the ECM.

Rumor on the street, and supposedly reported by numerous drivers is that
throttles are occasionally being opened to various degrees,
un-commanded, and irrespective of pedal position... due to ECM or
actuator/servo assembly failure is unknown. The carpets may or may not
even be involved and/or could possibly be a secondary issue altogether.

Word also has the NHTSA dismissing a lot of complaints stating them to
be 'driver error'... without even an investigation. Pretty sad if it's
true... I suspect it is for some reason.

If this weren't bad enough, last night I hear Toyota has now a new
separate issue with the Tundra. Seems they sent out a recall telling
owners to pull down their spare tires, and keep them in the bed till
further notice. Something to do with retaining the spare is failing in
areas where roads are salted, and spares are being released onto the
roadway.

Erik

On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:26:09 -0800, "Bill Noble"
wrote:

car could not be shifted into neutral

You're KIDDING??

I'd really like to hear the reasoning behind that design decision.
Where I live, we have icy roads for several months of the year. Being
able to quickly go to neutral (or stomp the clutch for manual
transmissions) is vital when trying to recover from a slide.
--
RoRo

Gunner Asch wrote:

With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a
couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine.


And you would be deaf as a stone.

Wes
--

The only thing Obama has fixed is Carter's reputation.

TwoGuns wrote:
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

DL
What is even more UN-BELIEVABLE is doesn't ANYONE know
there is an ignition switch that if turned off stops
the motor??????? Just how STUPID can people be? Do
they expect the GOVERNMENT to do it for them??????
...lew...

That would have been my choice. Of course, you lose the
power steering and power brakes. But at least you don't have
the engine pulling you to your death.

What happened to toe under the gas pedal, and pull up? I
learned that one in high school driver ed.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Christopher Tidy" wrote in
message ...

Or just switch off the engine.

Chris

"Erik" wrote in message
...
If this weren't bad enough, last night I hear Toyota has now a new
separate issue with the Tundra. Seems they sent out a recall telling
owners to pull down their spare tires, and keep them in the bed till
further notice. Something to do with retaining the spare is failing in
areas where roads are salted, and spares are being released onto the
roadway.

Erik

The Tundras have significant corrosion problems.

On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:53:50 -0600, Ignoramus20054
wrote:

This happened to me once (gas pedal stuck under a mat). I was driving
a Ford Taurus back then. I had about 1-2 seconds to think about it.

My solution was to turn off the engine with the key.

I almost **** my pants, as this happened in a parking lot full of
people.

i

Happened to me as well. '69 Pontiac IIRC. One of the infamous small
block/delaminating engine mount/auto full-throttle models. I was
stopped and waiting to make a left turn across 2 lanes of traffic and
into a parking lot. When my opening came I stepped on the gas and the
peddle sucked itself to the floor. Definitely got my attention. By the
time the car crossed the curb line into the parking lot my hand was on
the ignition switch. With both feet on the brake and struggling to
steer as the engine died, I was stopped before I got very far into the
lot. I believe that the instinct to kill the engine comes from having
some affinity with mechanical things, something that few have anymore.
These days many people's first instinct would be to hit the Onstar
button. ;-) Check this out for my favorite example of where "a car
is just another appliance" attitude is taking us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbX_I_lrmIc

Wayne

"Lewis Hartswick" wrote in message
m...
TwoGuns wrote:
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

DL
What is even more UN-BELIEVABLE is doesn't ANYONE know
there is an ignition switch that if turned off stops
the motor??????? Just how STUPID can people be? Do
they expect the GOVERNMENT to do it for them??????
...lew...

let's try this again R E A L S L O W L Y for those who weren't or
didn't want to listen - there is NO ignition switch that acts like you say
on this car, there is NO WAY to select neutral under full throttle, and
there is solid evidence that the fault can be caused by software or
something other than the rug - If there had been a traditional ignition
switch, the passengers and driver would be alive. If there had been a
traditional mechanical linkage to the transmission, the passengers and
driver would be alive. These issues with Toyota go back a number of years,
and as some others are pointing out, have been denied by Toyota and by NTSB
despite significant evidence of a problem - if the dead had not included a
CHP officer and if the 911 call had not been made, the denial would be
continuing.

Let us talk about the elimination of safety features, or the complexity of a
modern vehicle that makes it possible for such things to happen, and quit
calling the dead stupid for being unable to override the system when there
was no override available.

Gunner Asch wrote:

With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a
couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine.

Gunner

I have some black tipped 30'06 that probably would work w/ one shot.

David

"David R.Birch" wrote:

I have some black tipped 30'06 that probably would work w/ one shot.


Don't let Sarah know.
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:26:09 -0800, "Bill Noble"
wrote:
"TwoGuns" wrote in message
...

Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the
car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required
holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was
no key to turn to make it go off -

Cars long ago stopped being simple mechanical devices, and turned into
complex industrial equipment - they need to start applying the
standard industrial equipment design rules to them.

On the Lexus SUV incident with the Off Duty CHP Officer and family,
that was a dealer service loaner that the driver was NOT familiar
with, it had all the fancy goodies that are suspect in these failures.
The ignition system on those is a Security Key Fob in your pocket or
purse that activates the door locks, and allows you to push a green
"Engine Start" button on the dash - no key. You have to push and hold
the "Start" button for IIRC four seconds for it to turn the ignition
back off.

Any industrial design person would have placed a Big Red Button on
the dashboard clearly marked "Engine Stop" - even if it has a flip-up
bump cover so you can't hit it accidentally. And no time delay - NOW.

The shifter is something fancy with paddles to step through the
gears on some cars, and yes there should be a clearly marked control
or button for Neutral...

I thought that was covered by the FMVSS rules on controls
standardization in the late 1960's that got us away from a dozen
different auto-tranny shift patterns and toward the unified P-R-N-D-L
pattern, and the restrictor gate system so you can't slam straight
through to Park without stopping at Neutral first...

And eventually led to the "Press brake pedal to shift out of
Neutral" interlocks...

And away from odd push-pull-twist controls to the Multi-Function Stalk
with the lights wiper and turn signals all on one easy to break arm.

People are saying "The steering wheel will lock if you turn off the
key!" - NOT if you only go one click back to turn off the ignition.
And on most cars it should be interlocked to NOT go to Lock till the
shifter is in Park. (Yes, there are exceptions. Can't protect
everyone from everything.)

Everyone claims "Pedal Misapplication" - these cars have a "Fly By
Wire" throttle with a pedal sensor telling the ECU computer what the
driver wants, and an integrated Cruise Control. I'm betting we have a
systems failure there somewhere, and the computer goes "Full throttle?
Sure, Boss!"

There are claims of "You can stop it with the brakes, even if the
engine is at full throttle..." BULL****. An expert driver maybe,
immediate problem recognition, both feet mashing on the brakes for all
you are worth, and swing it straight to the shoulder. And it's going
to feel like you just went 9 rounds with Muhammad Ali.

But if you can't pull off the stop right this moment, and arent a big
strong guy with the brute leg strength to fight a V-8 and win, it
won't take long to heat-soak the brakes till they fade to nothing.

And then you have no chance at all - even if you get the engine shut
down, you still have to deal with 'no brakes' from the heat fade.

They need a brake pressure sensor input goiing to the computer - if
the brake pedal pressure is are over 25 lbs., ignore the throttle.
They want to stop.

RULE: Conflicting control inputs should invoke a Fail Safe.

Replacing the floormats and modifying the gas pedal is a classic Red
Herring. The problem is deeper, and allowing them to Mesmerize you
with a fake fix isn't helping anything.

-- Bruce --

Bruce, I liked your write up, but I have a much simpler solution to
proper (read ergonomic and idiot proof) car design, when it comes to
stuck gas pedals. As someone who experienced this situation, I
sympathize with all others who had it.

My proposed solution would be to detect when gas AND brake pedals are
engaged simultaneously, and perform the following:

1) Disengage the transmission
2) Ignore the gas pedal signal and treat it as not depressed at all.

These two things can cure those dangerous situations.

I agree also that any car, no matter how "smart", should have a very
easy means of killing the engine NO MATTER WHAT.

i

On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 08:41:05 -0500, Wes wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a
couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine.


And you would be deaf as a stone.

Wes


Huh?

G

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

"but.... we're doing something about it.....

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in
message ...

RULE: Conflicting control inputs should invoke a Fail Safe.

Replacing the floormats and modifying the gas pedal is a
classic Red
Herring. The problem is deeper, and allowing them to
Mesmerize you
with a fake fix isn't helping anything.

-- Bruce --

On Nov 26, 1:55*pm, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:26:09 -0800, "Bill Noble"



wrote:
"TwoGuns" wrote in message
....
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the
car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required
holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was
no key to turn to make it go off -

Cars long ago stopped being simple mechanical devices, and turned into
complex industrial equipment - they need to start applying the
standard industrial equipment design rules to them. *

* On the Lexus SUV incident with the Off Duty CHP Officer and family,
that was a dealer service loaner that the driver was NOT familiar
with, it had all the fancy goodies that are suspect in these failures.
* The ignition system on those is a Security Key Fob in your pocket or
purse that activates the door locks, and allows you to push a green
"Engine Start" button on the dash - no key. *You have to push and hold
the "Start" button for IIRC four seconds for it to turn the ignition
back off.

* Any industrial design person would have placed a Big Red Button on
the dashboard clearly marked "Engine Stop" - even if it has a flip-up
bump cover so you can't hit it accidentally. *And no time delay - NOW.

* The shifter is something fancy with paddles to step through the
gears on some cars, and yes there should be a clearly marked control
or button for Neutral...

* I thought that was covered by the FMVSS rules on controls
standardization in the late 1960's that got us away from a dozen
different auto-tranny shift patterns and toward the unified P-R-N-D-L
pattern, and the restrictor gate system so you can't slam straight
through to Park without stopping at Neutral first...

* And eventually led to the "Press brake pedal to shift out of
Neutral" interlocks...

And away from odd push-pull-twist controls to the Multi-Function Stalk
with the lights wiper and turn signals all on one easy to break arm.

People are saying "The steering wheel will lock if you turn off the
key!" - NOT if you only go one click back to turn off the ignition.
And on most cars it should be interlocked to NOT go to Lock till the
shifter is in Park. *(Yes, there are exceptions. Can't protect
everyone from everything.)

* Everyone claims "Pedal Misapplication" - these cars have a "Fly By
Wire" throttle with a pedal sensor telling the ECU computer what the
driver wants, and an integrated Cruise Control. *I'm betting we have a
systems failure there somewhere, and the computer goes "Full throttle?
Sure, Boss!"

There are claims of "You can stop it with the brakes, even if the
engine is at full throttle..." *BULL****. *An expert driver maybe,
immediate problem recognition, both feet mashing on the brakes for all
you are worth, and swing it straight to the shoulder. *And it's going
to feel like you just went 9 rounds with Muhammad Ali.

*But if you can't pull off the stop right this moment, and arent a big
strong guy with the brute leg strength to fight a V-8 and win, *it
won't take long to heat-soak the brakes till they fade to nothing. *

And then you have no chance at all - even if you get the engine shut
down, you still have to deal with 'no brakes' from the heat fade.

They need a brake pressure sensor input goiing to the computer - if
the brake pedal pressure is are over 25 lbs., ignore the throttle.
They want to stop.

RULE: *Conflicting control inputs should invoke a Fail Safe.

Replacing the floormats and modifying the gas pedal is a classic Red
Herring. *The problem is deeper, and allowing them to Mesmerize you
with a fake fix isn't helping anything.

-- Bruce --

As the control systems become more and more complex, ie fly by wire,
stability control, traction control, ABS, automatic braking etc. the
potential for software screw ups becomes more and more interesting. I
would imagine it would be next to impossible to design the software on
the Radar/Auto Braking used on some of the new Benz's to not cause
unintended results in some circumstances. At least in a fighter jet
you can bail out if the fly by wire quits.
How would anyone even know if a given crash was caused by an incorrect
stability control intervention? What happens if the car is
incorrectly serviced or non OEM parts are installed 10 years down the
road?

In any case, most cars have brake torque well in excess of what the
engine can produce, except for perhaps some older muscle cars with
drum brakes and big blocks, but in a panic I guess anything can
happen. My '67 Jaguar E type had a bad motor mount when I first
bought it. This allowed the throttle arms on the triple carbs. to jam
on the frame tube, (mainly only at, or close to wide open throttle).
My dad had a wild ride in reverse when he decided to take the car one
day. Not sure why, but he goosed it hard in reverse, the throttle
jammed and he wound up in the neighbors front yard. If the throttles
had not popped shut when he went over the curb at the street, the car
would have wound up in the neighbors house. Left two nice black
stripes down the driveway, broke an exhaust connection, but no damage
otherwise. He said he never got his foot on the brake until he was in
the neighbors yard. The driveway was 180 feet long..

In article ,
Ignoramus17202 wrote:

Bruce, I liked your write up, but I have a much simpler solution to
proper (read ergonomic and idiot proof) car design, when it comes to
stuck gas pedals. As someone who experienced this situation, I
sympathize with all others who had it.

My proposed solution would be to detect when gas AND brake pedals are
engaged simultaneously, and perform the following:

1) Disengage the transmission
2) Ignore the gas pedal signal and treat it as not depressed at all.

These two things can cure those dangerous situations.

I agree also that any car, no matter how "smart", should have a very
easy means of killing the engine NO MATTER WHAT.

i

I agree, and it should be obvious to anyone how to do it, even under
duress.

Conflicting control input disengagement systems are in the works... and
I suspect will need some critical thought too... remember, there is
still a significant percentage of the population who still exclusively
brake with their left foot.

Also, If the transmission is disengaged as in '1)' above, it won't later
be available to assist with compression breaking.

If the gas petal signal input is just ignored as in '2)' above, it won't
stop a runaway due to ECM or actuator failure holding a throttle valve
open.

I think the system should shut down the ignition, fuel injection and
fuel pump.

Come to think if it, there may be a little more to think of. The driver
who shuts down with a wide open throttle, then pumps the brakes several
times will also be presented with a no power brake boost issue... as the
open throttle won't allow the creation of manifold vacuum. (Much the
same deal for the driver fighting a running runaway, little vacuum
available then as well, and if the brakes are pumped, there goes the
brake booster's remaining stored vacuum reserve...)

Which brings us to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire

Just make ya wanna drink...

There are 'drive by wire' and 'electronic throttle control' articles as
well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...rottle_control

Erik

On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:20:20 -0600, "David R.Birch"
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a
couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine.

Gunner

I have some black tipped 30'06 that probably would work w/ one shot.

David

Almost true. Get an old engine some time and shoot up half a box of
it..and check how little damage you actually did.

Ive done it a number of times..and its damned surprising how little
damage you actually do. And Ive done it with a running engine about half
of those times.

When one shoots to stop a moving vehicle..shoot the driver.

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:56:38 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

TwoGuns wrote:
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

I've had the misfortune of calling 911 a few times
over the last 30 years. My experience is that the
dispatchers are rote trained to dispatch and nothing
else. It probably never entered the dispatcher's
mind to solve the problem if he/she had never been
trained to.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

No quarrel there. I think in most cars, a *hard*
*sustained* braking effort would probably also
work. Both feet on the pedal and don't let up
until it grinds to a stop.
20+ years ago, I rode the brakes on a '84 Citation for about 5 miles,
through a freeway exit, to a major uphill grade where I was able to
kick it out of suicide mode. I never did figure out what the problem
was, just refused to drive that particular piece of crap again!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada