Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Jim Chandler writes:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:35:26 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns
wrote:

Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
hit send before thinking about it Chris.


Apparently you are not familiar with the fact that the OFF position is
the first detent out of on and the LOCK is the second and requires the
wheel to be in a certain position to lock. Try it sometime. Turn off
your engine with the wheel turned to one side or the other. It will
not lock until the wheel is turned to a specific spot. Therefore, the
argument that the wheel will lock if you turn off the ignition is not
valid.


Since it turns out the car had a keyless ignition this is losing
relevance, but -- on all the cars I own, you do have to move the wheel
to one of a number of specific spots, but there are enough of them that
normal movement of the wheel to drive down the road would be certain to
hit one (more relevant would be that there is an intermediate key
position).
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
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"Stephen B." writes:

"Erik" wrote
"Bill Noble" wrote:
probably, but lawsuits don't bring back the dead. One advantage of
driving
a standard transmission car is that there is almost nothing that
can prevent
you from disconnecting the engine from the drive train - you have
both a
clutch and a shift lever (and the skill to use them).



Ahhh... but with some sticks you can be surprised by the occasional
busted clutch cable.


Been there done that it is no problem to push out of gear so one can
stop. The tricky part is knowing how to get home after the stop by
starting in first and then work your way up the gears by RPM matching
so as not to destroy the transmission. Every clutch owner should try
it out before it is absolutely needed.


My daughter's solution to that problem was to pull out her cell phone,
"Dad...."
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:08:51 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:14:18 -0800, Jim Chandler wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:41:21 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns
wrote:

Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

DL



How about just turning the key off? That would kill the engine and
the problem would go away. You are correct in your assessment that
everyone in the broadcast business is a clueless idiot. They can't be
bothered to research the subject.

Jim



Many vehicles these days do NOT use keys. The car in question didnt
have a key..but a "start button"..and to shut it down requires one to
press it for up to 4 seconds.

You just got here..right ?

G


Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton



So push the bloody button and hold it. Then go have the car modified
back to a saner system. :-)

Jim
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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:53:20 -0800, "Bill Noble"
wrote:



"Jim Chandler" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:41:21 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns
wrote:

Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

DL



How about just turning the key off? That would kill the engine and
the problem would go away. You are correct in your assessment that
everyone in the broadcast business is a clueless idiot. They can't be
bothered to research the subject.

Jim


and, mr Jim, perhaps you haven't been reading anything at all about this?
How else could you make the above post - Many journalists DID research the
subject, the links have been posted here, did you not see them?



My post regarding the "journalists" was a general one. How many times
have you seen/heard/read some so-called "journalist" make a statement
on a subject with which you were intimately familiar and noticed that
they didn't know WTF they were talking about? More often than not, I
suspect. The proper course of action here would have been to turn off
the engine, by whatever means necessary for that particular vehicle
and wrestle it to the side of the road. Unfortunately, most drivers
on the road today don't have the mental presence to accomplish this.
Their first reaction is to stomp the brakes and nothing else. The
problem is exacerbated by the fact that drivers today are not taught
to drive. If they have any training at all, it's to turn on the
ignition, put it in gear (automatic) and point it where you want to
go. Since Driver's Ed is no longer taught they haven't the foggiest
about what to do in an emergency. Even in Driver's Ed, they didn't go
into much detail or depth on emergencies. I've had my share (and then
some) of mechanical vehicular failures and have managed to survive
without so much as a scratch on the vehicle. The worst one was a
total brake failure on a 28' "bread" truck that I was driving. I had
just come over the top of a freeway crossing and pushed on the brake
to slow for the approaching lights. The pedal went to the floor and
the truck continued to build speed downhill. My action was to grab
the emergency brake, slam it into first gear and lay on the horn, all
while steering the beast to the side of the road to scrub off speed on
the curb. Turns out that, somehow, the puchrod for the master
cylinder had popped out and therefore there were no brakes. How many
drivers today do you think would have had the presence of mind to do
that? Not many I'd suspect. Fortunately, I've had several years of
emergency vehicle (police car) driving, and dirt track racing
experience to fall back on. A thorough understanding of how my
vehicles work also helps. Too bad that there isn't a requirement for
SOME kind of training prior to obtaining a driver's license. Hell,
most of them today can't even change a tire.

Jim
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"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:14:18 -0800, Jim Chandler wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:41:21 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns
wrote:

Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

DL



How about just turning the key off? That would kill the engine and
the problem would go away. You are correct in your assessment that
everyone in the broadcast business is a clueless idiot. They can't be
bothered to research the subject.

Jim



Many vehicles these days do NOT use keys. The car in question didnt
have a key..but a "start button"..and to shut it down requires one to
press it for up to 4 seconds.

You just got here..right ?

G


Gunner


Actually you just have to pust the button with the brakes applied. And he
most likely was stomping on the brakes to slow down the car. So he probably
did not push the off button.




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In article ,
Jim Chandler wrote:

Too bad that there isn't a requirement for
SOME kind of training prior to obtaining a driver's license. Hell,
most of them today can't even change a tire.



I don't know if it's so or not, but have heard in Sweden you need to
pass an elementary 'automotive mechanical aptitude' test to get a
drivers license.

Simple basic stuff like correct use of jumper cables and putting on the
spare... and if your not physically able, at least be able to correctly
direct someone else in doing so.

Does anyone know if there's any truth to this? Sounds like a good idea
to me.

(An item on my 'list' would be explaining how to restart a fuel injected
engine after it's been run out of fuel... without burning up the
starter, and running down the battery.

How do you do it? On most cars, after adding a little fuel, turn the key
to the 'run' position, wait about 4 seconds then turn it back off.
Repeat 50 or 60 times. Each cycle runs the pump 2 or 3 seconds without
grinding away on the starter. Long vehicles, like limos will require
more cycles.

And how do you do it with a vehicle equipped with a 'start button? I
don't have a clue... probably there is a way to run the fuel pump with a
scan tool or jumper wire, but who knows...)

Erik
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"Jim Chandler" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:53:20 -0800, "Bill Noble"
wrote:


and, mr Jim, perhaps you haven't been reading anything at all about this?
How else could you make the above post - Many journalists DID research the
subject, the links have been posted here, did you not see them?



My post regarding the "journalists" was a general one. How many times
have you seen/heard/read some so-called "journalist" make a statement
on a subject with which you were intimately familiar and noticed that
they didn't know WTF they were talking about? More often than not, I
suspect. The proper course of action here would have been to turn off
the engine, by whatever means necessary for that particular vehicle
and wrestle it to the side of the road. Unfortunately, most drivers
on the road today don't have the mental presence to accomplish this.
Their first reaction is to stomp the brakes and nothing else. The
problem is exacerbated by the fact that drivers today are not taught
to drive. If they have any training at all, it's to turn on the
ignition, put it in gear (automatic) and point it where you want to
go. Since Driver's Ed is no longer taught they haven't the foggiest
about what to do in an emergency. Even in Driver's Ed, they didn't go
into much detail or depth on emergencies. I've had my share (and then
some) of mechanical vehicular failures and have managed to survive
without so much as a scratch on the vehicle. The worst one was a
total brake failure on a 28' "bread" truck that I was driving. I had
just come over the top of a freeway crossing and pushed on the brake
to slow for the approaching lights. The pedal went to the floor and
the truck continued to build speed downhill. My action was to grab
the emergency brake, slam it into first gear and lay on the horn, all
while steering the beast to the side of the road to scrub off speed on
the curb. Turns out that, somehow, the puchrod for the master
cylinder had popped out and therefore there were no brakes. How many
drivers today do you think would have had the presence of mind to do
that? Not many I'd suspect. Fortunately, I've had several years of
emergency vehicle (police car) driving, and dirt track racing
experience to fall back on. A thorough understanding of how my
vehicles work also helps. Too bad that there isn't a requirement for
SOME kind of training prior to obtaining a driver's license. Hell,
most of them today can't even change a tire.

Jim


Noted, but in this case, the driver was a CHP officer, who presumably is
well trained in all these issues.

And, to put a different take on your brake failure - a few decades back I
was driving a 356 down a hill when I noticed torque steer - "this can't be
good" thinks I, so I back off on the gas and start to slow - at that moment
the rear wheel leaves the car, taking the brake drum with it. So, I'm
leaving a nice rooster tail of sparks as the car rides on three wheels and
one shock tower. Press the brakes - nothing (single brake system, not dual
like modern cars) - pull emergency brake - nothing - mechanical
differential, downshift - nothing - there's a differential in the gearbox
and no positraction - so I turned off the ignition to reduce chance of fire
(no steering lock on that car) and rode it out - but, look at the steps I
took - there was NOTHING more to do to slow it down - it finally stopped
when the road leveled out, the shock tower caught in a crack in the freeway
and spun me into the center divider, shortening the car by about 18 inches.
That's a ride I'd rather avoid in the future.

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"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...



How about just turning the key off? That would kill the engine and
the problem would go away. You are correct in your assessment that
everyone in the broadcast business is a clueless idiot. They can't be
bothered to research the subject.

Jim



Many vehicles these days do NOT use keys. The car in question didnt
have a key..but a "start button"..and to shut it down requires one to
press it for up to 4 seconds.

You just got here..right ?

G


Gunner


Actually you just have to pust the button with the brakes applied. And he
most likely was stomping on the brakes to slow down the car. So he
probably did not push the off button.


maybe, or maybe the software had locked up and nothing would do the trick -
there is no real "off" switch anywhere so you are depending on the software
working correctly at all times.

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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 22:32:32 -0800, Erik wrote:


(An item on my 'list' would be explaining how to restart a fuel injected
engine after it's been run out of fuel... without burning up the
starter, and running down the battery.

How do you do it? On most cars, after adding a little fuel, turn the key
to the 'run' position, wait about 4 seconds then turn it back off.
Repeat 50 or 60 times. Each cycle runs the pump 2 or 3 seconds without
grinding away on the starter. Long vehicles, like limos will require
more cycles.



Why not simply turn the key to the run position, open the hood and press
a ballpoint pen or other item, on the little gizmo in the Schraider
valve on the fuel injector rail until it spritzs gas up like a litle
fountain?

Or doesnt that work?

Please tell me! I might run out of gas someday.

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton
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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 21:24:22 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:14:18 -0800, Jim Chandler wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:41:21 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns
wrote:

Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

DL


How about just turning the key off? That would kill the engine and
the problem would go away. You are correct in your assessment that
everyone in the broadcast business is a clueless idiot. They can't be
bothered to research the subject.

Jim



Many vehicles these days do NOT use keys. The car in question didnt
have a key..but a "start button"..and to shut it down requires one to
press it for up to 4 seconds.

You just got here..right ?

G


Gunner


Actually you just have to pust the button with the brakes applied. And he
most likely was stomping on the brakes to slow down the car. So he probably
did not push the off button.

How long do you have to hold it (button) to kill the engine?

This is something Id LIKE to know..just in case someday it happens to
me.

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton


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On Nov 30, 12:24*am, "Bill McKee" wrote:

Actually you just have to pust the button with the brakes applied. *And he
most likely was stomping on the brakes to slow down the car. *So he probably
did not push the off button.


Whoever designed this should first sit in the vehicle, stand on the
brake pedal as hard as possible and then try to lean forward to reach
the button, while 10 people wave bright lights and throw stuff at them
as a distraction.

jsw, right in the middle of this issue but unable to say much.
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On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 01:35:12 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:


How long do you have to hold it (button) to kill the engine?

This is something Id LIKE to know..just in case someday it happens to
me.

Gunner


LOL On the day you're telling us that your electricity is to be cut
off momentarily due to non-payment, you're using the last of it to
ponder dealing with an emergency in a new vehicle! Why not some
discussion of how you'd handle a go/no-go decision on a moon landing?
Shouldn't you be working on a potato battery or something?

Wayne

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Erik writes:

(An item on my 'list' would be explaining how to restart a fuel injected
engine after it's been run out of fuel... without burning up the
starter, and running down the battery.

How do you do it? On most cars, after adding a little fuel, turn the key
to the 'run' position, wait about 4 seconds then turn it back off.
Repeat 50 or 60 times. Each cycle runs the pump 2 or 3 seconds without
grinding away on the starter. Long vehicles, like limos will require
more cycles.

And how do you do it with a vehicle equipped with a 'start button? I
don't have a clue... probably there is a way to run the fuel pump with a
scan tool or jumper wire, but who knows...)


The trunk-mounted fuel pump, combined with the use of a regulator that
works by opening a bypass that lets fuel back to the tank, means you're
talking about a couple of seconds max if you just get in and start the
car without messing around with special procedures. You're not going to
burn out a starter motor or run down a battery.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
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Why not simply turn the key to the run position, open the hood and press
a ballpoint pen or other item, on the little gizmo in the Schraider
valve on the fuel injector rail until it spritzs gas up like a litle
fountain?

Or doesnt that work?

Please tell me! I might run out of gas someday.

Gunner


When the key is first turned on, the pump is only run a couple of
seconds to be sure the fuel rail is up to pressure. The pump isn't
allowed to run continuously unless the engine is actually running or in
the process of being cranked.

It's a safety thing, you don't want the pump running alone... if allowed
to do so, it could pump the tank contents out through a ruptured fuel
line at an accident site. It happened more than a few times back in the
early days of electric fuel pumps.

It's done several ways, and some also incorporate inertia switches in
the fuel pump power lead.

They all have a way to override this feature in order to quickly bleed
the system and do pressure/flow tests, but your not likely to have the
proper scan tool, jumper wires and/or whatever on the cold rainy night
you need to do a re start. The override procedure is in your shop manual.

Erik

PS, Also be aware that not all cars are equipped with fuel service
ports... in which case there is no Schrader valve to push.
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How long do you have to hold it (button) to kill the engine?

This is something Id LIKE to know..just in case someday it happens to
me.

Gunner


I think it's 3 continuous seconds for Toyota products.

Erik


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The trunk-mounted fuel pump, combined with the use of a regulator that
works by opening a bypass that lets fuel back to the tank, means you're
talking about a couple of seconds max if you just get in and start the
car without messing around with special procedures. You're not going to
burn out a starter motor or run down a battery.


You'd think so... but in the real world, it takes a good while. If you
just hop in and grind away, you'll grossly exceed the starters duty
cycle limits. It's rough on batteries too, and should the battery be
already partially discharged and/or it's very cold out, you may not get
it started.

Also keep in mind that system voltage is lower during starter operation,
and as a result fuel pump operation is handicapped to varying degrees...
further still slowing the fuel system bleed process.

Erik
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Gunner Asch wrote:

Many vehicles these days do NOT use keys. The car in question didnt
have a key..but a "start button"..and to shut it down requires one to
press it for up to 4 seconds.


Actually you just have to pust the button with the brakes applied. And he
most likely was stomping on the brakes to slow down the car. So he probably
did not push the off button.

How long do you have to hold it (button) to kill the engine?

This is something Id LIKE to know..just in case someday it happens to
me.


You need to push the button 5 times within 2 seconds. Repeat as necessary.

:^)
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"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 21:24:22 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:14:18 -0800, Jim Chandler wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:41:21 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns
wrote:

Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

DL


How about just turning the key off? That would kill the engine and
the problem would go away. You are correct in your assessment that
everyone in the broadcast business is a clueless idiot. They can't be
bothered to research the subject.

Jim


Many vehicles these days do NOT use keys. The car in question didnt
have a key..but a "start button"..and to shut it down requires one to
press it for up to 4 seconds.

You just got here..right ?

G


Gunner


Actually you just have to pust the button with the brakes applied. And he
most likely was stomping on the brakes to slow down the car. So he
probably
did not push the off button.

How long do you have to hold it (button) to kill the engine?

This is something Id LIKE to know..just in case someday it happens to
me.

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton


Went off about as soon as the button was pressed.


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"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 22:32:32 -0800, Erik wrote:


(An item on my 'list' would be explaining how to restart a fuel injected
engine after it's been run out of fuel... without burning up the
starter, and running down the battery.

How do you do it? On most cars, after adding a little fuel, turn the key
to the 'run' position, wait about 4 seconds then turn it back off.
Repeat 50 or 60 times. Each cycle runs the pump 2 or 3 seconds without
grinding away on the starter. Long vehicles, like limos will require
more cycles.



Why not simply turn the key to the run position, open the hood and press
a ballpoint pen or other item, on the little gizmo in the Schraider
valve on the fuel injector rail until it spritzs gas up like a litle
fountain?

Or doesnt that work?

Please tell me! I might run out of gas someday.

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton


Do not know on a gas rig, but I think you can just cycle the ignition switch
a few times to get the fuel pumped to the engine. On a diesel, take an air
hose and a rag and pressurize the tank while cranking the motor. One of my
drivers ran a delivery truck F550 out of fuel and another trucker showed him
the trick. This was in the early 80's.


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"Erik" wrote in message
...

The trunk-mounted fuel pump, combined with the use of a regulator that
works by opening a bypass that lets fuel back to the tank, means you're
talking about a couple of seconds max if you just get in and start the
car without messing around with special procedures. You're not going to
burn out a starter motor or run down a battery.


You'd think so... but in the real world, it takes a good while. If you
just hop in and grind away, you'll grossly exceed the starters duty
cycle limits. It's rough on batteries too, and should the battery be
already partially discharged and/or it's very cold out, you may not get
it started.

Also keep in mind that system voltage is lower during starter operation,
and as a result fuel pump operation is handicapped to varying degrees...
further still slowing the fuel system bleed process.

Erik



The main problem is not the starter, but the fuel pumps. The high pressure
pump will fail shortly from running dry, and the one in the tank will fail
from being overheated.




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"Michael A. Terrell" wrote
"Stephen B." wrote:

"Erik" wrote
"Bill Noble" wrote:
probably, but lawsuits don't bring back the dead. One advantage
of
driving
a standard transmission car is that there is almost nothing that
can prevent
you from disconnecting the engine from the drive train - you
have
both a
clutch and a shift lever (and the skill to use them).


Ahhh... but with some sticks you can be surprised by the
occasional
busted clutch cable.


Been there done that it is no problem to push out of gear so one
can
stop. The tricky part is knowing how to get home after the stop by
starting in first and then work your way up the gears by RPM
matching
so as not to destroy the transmission. Every clutch owner should
try
it out before it is absolutely needed.



Try getting home when every rivet in the clutch shears off,
allowing
the inner steel disk to spin inside the clutch disks.


I hope I will pass on that one.


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"Bill McKee" writes:

"Erik" wrote in message
...

The trunk-mounted fuel pump, combined with the use of a regulator that
works by opening a bypass that lets fuel back to the tank, means you're
talking about a couple of seconds max if you just get in and start the
car without messing around with special procedures. You're not going to
burn out a starter motor or run down a battery.


You'd think so... but in the real world, it takes a good while. If you
just hop in and grind away, you'll grossly exceed the starters duty
cycle limits. It's rough on batteries too, and should the battery be
already partially discharged and/or it's very cold out, you may not get
it started.

Also keep in mind that system voltage is lower during starter operation,
and as a result fuel pump operation is handicapped to varying degrees...
further still slowing the fuel system bleed process.

Erik



The main problem is not the starter, but the fuel pumps. The high pressure
pump will fail shortly from running dry, and the one in the tank will fail
from being overheated.


Two pumps? Just checked, and this is absolutely not the case for my
Intrepid. One pump, in the tank. With lots of liquid around it to cool
it.

FSM calls for using a scan tool to pressurize the system; I'd have to go
out in the rain (yes, it looks like Seattle outside. Snarl) to see if
the owner's manual calls for anything special in the event of running
out of gas. I'd be really, really surprised.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
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"Stephen B." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote
"Stephen B." wrote:

"Erik" wrote
"Bill Noble" wrote:
probably, but lawsuits don't bring back the dead. One advantage
of
driving
a standard transmission car is that there is almost nothing that
can prevent
you from disconnecting the engine from the drive train - you
have
both a
clutch and a shift lever (and the skill to use them).


Ahhh... but with some sticks you can be surprised by the
occasional
busted clutch cable.

Been there done that it is no problem to push out of gear so one
can
stop. The tricky part is knowing how to get home after the stop by
starting in first and then work your way up the gears by RPM
matching
so as not to destroy the transmission. Every clutch owner should
try
it out before it is absolutely needed.



Try getting home when every rivet in the clutch shears off,
allowing
the inner steel disk to spin inside the clutch disks.


I hope I will pass on that one.



I would have liked to. I went to shift gears, and only heard a high
pitched squeal when i let out the clutch. it was in a '73 Chevy Step
van, and had been replaced just before I bought the truck from a fleet
upgrade. The clutch looked like new, except for the missing rivets. They
had bought a bunch of imported crap parts, and it was obvious they
weren't up to the task when compared to the OEM clutch. The replacement
lasted until I retired the truck, almost 20 years later.


--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!
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"Joe Pfeiffer" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" writes:

"Erik" wrote in message
...

The trunk-mounted fuel pump, combined with the use of a regulator that
works by opening a bypass that lets fuel back to the tank, means you're
talking about a couple of seconds max if you just get in and start the
car without messing around with special procedures. You're not going
to
burn out a starter motor or run down a battery.

You'd think so... but in the real world, it takes a good while. If you
just hop in and grind away, you'll grossly exceed the starters duty
cycle limits. It's rough on batteries too, and should the battery be
already partially discharged and/or it's very cold out, you may not get
it started.

Also keep in mind that system voltage is lower during starter operation,
and as a result fuel pump operation is handicapped to varying degrees...
further still slowing the fuel system bleed process.

Erik



The main problem is not the starter, but the fuel pumps. The high
pressure
pump will fail shortly from running dry, and the one in the tank will
fail
from being overheated.


Two pumps? Just checked, and this is absolutely not the case for my
Intrepid. One pump, in the tank. With lots of liquid around it to cool
it.

FSM calls for using a scan tool to pressurize the system; I'd have to go
out in the rain (yes, it looks like Seattle outside. Snarl) to see if
the owner's manual calls for anything special in the event of running
out of gas. I'd be really, really surprised.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)



My fuel injection Chevy in the boat has a low pressure and a high pressure.
But when you run out of gas, the tank pump will fail in the not to long
future.


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On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:30:50 -0800, Erik wrote:


Why not simply turn the key to the run position, open the hood and press
a ballpoint pen or other item, on the little gizmo in the Schraider
valve on the fuel injector rail until it spritzs gas up like a litle
fountain?

Or doesnt that work?

Please tell me! I might run out of gas someday.

Gunner


When the key is first turned on, the pump is only run a couple of
seconds to be sure the fuel rail is up to pressure. The pump isn't
allowed to run continuously unless the engine is actually running or in
the process of being cranked.

It's a safety thing, you don't want the pump running alone... if allowed
to do so, it could pump the tank contents out through a ruptured fuel
line at an accident site. It happened more than a few times back in the
early days of electric fuel pumps.


Ah! Thanks!

So If the schrader valve is pressed and held down...then the ignition
turned on and off repeatedly...it should bleed?

Gunner


It's done several ways, and some also incorporate inertia switches in
the fuel pump power lead.

They all have a way to override this feature in order to quickly bleed
the system and do pressure/flow tests, but your not likely to have the
proper scan tool, jumper wires and/or whatever on the cold rainy night
you need to do a re start. The override procedure is in your shop manual.

Erik

PS, Also be aware that not all cars are equipped with fuel service
ports... in which case there is no Schrader valve to push.


Ok. Never saw one without..but then Im not a big car guy.

Gunner


"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton


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In article ,
Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:30:50 -0800, Erik wrote:


Why not simply turn the key to the run position, open the hood and press
a ballpoint pen or other item, on the little gizmo in the Schraider
valve on the fuel injector rail until it spritzs gas up like a litle
fountain?

Or doesnt that work?

Please tell me! I might run out of gas someday.

Gunner


When the key is first turned on, the pump is only run a couple of
seconds to be sure the fuel rail is up to pressure. The pump isn't
allowed to run continuously unless the engine is actually running or in
the process of being cranked.

It's a safety thing, you don't want the pump running alone... if allowed
to do so, it could pump the tank contents out through a ruptured fuel
line at an accident site. It happened more than a few times back in the
early days of electric fuel pumps.


Ah! Thanks!

So If the schrader valve is pressed and held down...then the ignition
turned on and off repeatedly...it should bleed?

Gunner


Just put in a gallon or two of fuel, do the switch cycle dance and your
back in business. There is no need to mess with the fuel service port.
The fuel pressure regulator returns trapped air back to the tank.

If your going to do a lot of them, like bleeding fuel systems on the
assembly line, then yea, the service port/scan tool thing is the way to
go. In the real world, most dealers & shops don't mess with the service
port for just bleeding fuel systems... they just cycle the switch.

Erik
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Gunner Asch wrote:

snip

I have some black tipped 30'06 that probably would work w/ one shot.

David



Almost true. Get an old engine some time and shoot up half a box of
it..and check how little damage you actually did.

Ive done it a number of times..and its damned surprising how little
damage you actually do. And Ive done it with a running engine about half
of those times.


This is what I like about Gunner. Ask something like this, and he's the
guy who speaks from experience :-).

Chris

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On Tue, 01 Dec 2009 16:32:47 +0000, Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

snip

I have some black tipped 30'06 that probably would work w/ one shot.

David



Almost true. Get an old engine some time and shoot up half a box of
it..and check how little damage you actually did.

Ive done it a number of times..and its damned surprising how little
damage you actually do. And Ive done it with a running engine about half
of those times.


This is what I like about Gunner. Ask something like this, and he's the
guy who speaks from experience :-).

Chris


Well...if it has something to do with beautiful women, dogs, cats and
firearms....shrug..Its may well be in my experience.

If its about economics, tatting yarn, little league, golf, bowling..its
probably not in my experience.

While Im not old yet...yet...I have experienced some portions of life
with a great deal of gusto and enthusiasm. I tend to not only
wonder..but to Go and See.

I wanted to know how morticians did their grim work. So I went to one I
knew and asked. And watched several procedures. Same with autopseys,
slaughter houses, babies being born, how fork life wheels are
reconditioned and so forth and so on.

Others...not so much.

No idea how they make pool table felt. Probably some sort of weaving
process. Shrug. Its of no interest to me, yet people get rich running
weaving factories.

Artifical insemination of turkeys. No intention of every viewing the
proceedure. Not interested.

Its a very very big world out there..with an insurmontable number of
things of interest for a man with an open mind..such as myself. G
And an equally insurmountable number of things of disinterest. Womans
cosmetics? Dont care, dont have a clue about them. No interest. Which
is just one of a tremendous number of things that make me different from
say...Leftwingers. They..and their males, all depend on wearing
warpaint and bondo to keep their smiles in place. Shrug. But
then..they are so small minded that one can toss a make up kit to a
group of Leftwing males..and they will keep themselves occupied for many
hours trying it all on.

G

Gunner


Gunner


"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton
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On Tue, 01 Dec 2009 16:32:47 +0000, Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

snip

I have some black tipped 30'06 that probably would work w/ one shot.

David



Almost true. Get an old engine some time and shoot up half a box of
it..and check how little damage you actually did.

Ive done it a number of times..and its damned surprising how little
damage you actually do. And Ive done it with a running engine about half
of those times.


This is what I like about Gunner. Ask something like this, and he's the
guy who speaks from experience :-).

Chris


Well...if it has something to do with beautiful women, dogs, cats and
firearms....shrug..Its may well be in my experience.

If its about economics, tatting yarn, little league, golf, bowling..its
probably not in my experience.

While Im not old yet...yet...I have experienced some portions of life
with a great deal of gusto and enthusiasm. I tend to not only
wonder..but to Go and See.

I wanted to know how morticians did their grim work. So I went to one I
knew and asked. And watched several procedures. Same with autopseys,
slaughter houses, babies being born, how fork life wheels are
reconditioned and so forth and so on.

Others...not so much.

No idea how they make pool table felt. Probably some sort of weaving
process. Shrug. Its of no interest to me, yet people get rich running
weaving factories.

Artifical insemination of turkeys. No intention of every viewing the
proceedure. Not interested.

Its a very very big world out there..with an insurmontable number of
things of interest for a man with an open mind..such as myself. G
And an equally insurmountable number of things of disinterest. Womans
cosmetics? Dont care, dont have a clue about them. No interest. Which
is just one of a tremendous number of things that make me different from
say...Leftwingers. They..and their males, all depend on wearing
warpaint and bondo to keep their smiles in place. Shrug. But
then..they are so small minded that one can toss a make up kit to a
group of Leftwing males..and they will keep themselves occupied for many
hours trying it all on.

G

Gunner


Gunner


"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton
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Gunner Asch wrote:

Well...if it has something to do with beautiful women, dogs, cats and
firearms....shrug..Its may well be in my experience.

If its about economics, tatting yarn, little league, golf, bowling..its
probably not in my experience.

While Im not old yet...yet...I have experienced some portions of life
with a great deal of gusto and enthusiasm. I tend to not only
wonder..but to Go and See.

I wanted to know how morticians did their grim work. So I went to one I
knew and asked. And watched several procedures. Same with autopseys,
slaughter houses, babies being born, how fork life wheels are
reconditioned and so forth and so on.

Others...not so much.

No idea how they make pool table felt. Probably some sort of weaving
process. Shrug. Its of no interest to me, yet people get rich running
weaving factories.

Artifical insemination of turkeys. No intention of every viewing the
proceedure. Not interested.

Its a very very big world out there..with an insurmontable number of
things of interest for a man with an open mind..such as myself. G
And an equally insurmountable number of things of disinterest. Womans
cosmetics? Dont care, dont have a clue about them. No interest. Which
is just one of a tremendous number of things that make me different from
say...Leftwingers. They..and their males, all depend on wearing
warpaint and bondo to keep their smiles in place. Shrug. But
then..they are so small minded that one can toss a make up kit to a
group of Leftwing males..and they will keep themselves occupied for many
hours trying it all on.


Like it. So if you had the option to meet either Obama or Osama for one
hour, which would you pick? Maybe you can bring your gun, I'm not sure.

Chris



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"Bill McKee" writes:



In gear, and with the brakes applied, the engine turned off as soon as I
pushed the button on the wifes Venza today. Admitted I was not driving 100
miles an hour, was stopped in the Costco parking lot. So if the guy had hit
the start stop button while trying to brake the car, the engine would of
stopped, at least on a new Venza.


But the poor ******* was driving a Lexus E350.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
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"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" writes:



In gear, and with the brakes applied, the engine turned off as soon as I
pushed the button on the wifes Venza today. Admitted I was not driving
100
miles an hour, was stopped in the Costco parking lot. So if the guy had
hit
the start stop button while trying to brake the car, the engine would of
stopped, at least on a new Venza.


But the poor ******* was driving a Lexus E350.



Same manufacturer. So most likely the same electronics. Almost the same
engine.


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