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#41
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Toyota gas pedal
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:26:09 -0800, "Bill Noble" wrote: "TwoGuns" wrote in message ... Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT? Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL. PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience the proper way to react to a situation like this. before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was no key to turn to make it go off - Cars long ago stopped being simple mechanical devices, and turned into complex industrial equipment - they need to start applying the standard industrial equipment design rules to them. On the Lexus SUV incident with the Off Duty CHP Officer and family, that was a dealer service loaner that the driver was NOT familiar with, it had all the fancy goodies that are suspect in these failures. The ignition system on those is a Security Key Fob in your pocket or purse that activates the door locks, and allows you to push a green "Engine Start" button on the dash - no key. You have to push and hold the "Start" button for IIRC four seconds for it to turn the ignition back off. Any industrial design person would have placed a Big Red Button on the dashboard clearly marked "Engine Stop" - even if it has a flip-up bump cover so you can't hit it accidentally. And no time delay - NOW. The shifter is something fancy with paddles to step through the gears on some cars, and yes there should be a clearly marked control or button for Neutral... I thought that was covered by the FMVSS rules on controls standardization in the late 1960's that got us away from a dozen different auto-tranny shift patterns and toward the unified P-R-N-D-L pattern, and the restrictor gate system so you can't slam straight through to Park without stopping at Neutral first... And eventually led to the "Press brake pedal to shift out of Neutral" interlocks... And away from odd push-pull-twist controls to the Multi-Function Stalk with the lights wiper and turn signals all on one easy to break arm. People are saying "The steering wheel will lock if you turn off the key!" - NOT if you only go one click back to turn off the ignition. And on most cars it should be interlocked to NOT go to Lock till the shifter is in Park. (Yes, there are exceptions. Can't protect everyone from everything.) Everyone claims "Pedal Misapplication" - these cars have a "Fly By Wire" throttle with a pedal sensor telling the ECU computer what the driver wants, and an integrated Cruise Control. I'm betting we have a systems failure there somewhere, and the computer goes "Full throttle? Sure, Boss!" There are claims of "You can stop it with the brakes, even if the engine is at full throttle..." BULL****. An expert driver maybe, immediate problem recognition, both feet mashing on the brakes for all you are worth, and swing it straight to the shoulder. And it's going to feel like you just went 9 rounds with Muhammad Ali. But if you can't pull off the stop right this moment, and arent a big strong guy with the brute leg strength to fight a V-8 and win, it won't take long to heat-soak the brakes till they fade to nothing. And then you have no chance at all - even if you get the engine shut down, you still have to deal with 'no brakes' from the heat fade. They need a brake pressure sensor input goiing to the computer - if the brake pedal pressure is are over 25 lbs., ignore the throttle. They want to stop. RULE: Conflicting control inputs should invoke a Fail Safe. Replacing the floormats and modifying the gas pedal is a classic Red Herring. The problem is deeper, and allowing them to Mesmerize you with a fake fix isn't helping anything. I completely agree. I've made devices that have left/right controls and if you try to do both at once, they cut each other out and stop because if you're trying to do both at once, something is very wrong. If these cars are really fly by wire, do they really lack any sort of sensor on what the mechanical brake pedal is doing? ABS stuff has to know when you're really trying to brake. |
#42
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Toyota gas pedal
Bill Noble wrote:
let's try this again R E A L S L O W L Y for those who weren't or didn't want to listen - there is NO ignition switch that acts like you say on this car, It's (almost) impossible for me to believe that there are both engineers and government agencies that would permit such a thing to exist. How is it possible?????? Let us talk about the elimination of safety features, or the complexity of a modern vehicle that makes it possible for such things to happen, and quit calling the dead stupid for being unable to override the system when there was no override available. In that case the only "stupid" event that I can think of is driving such a vehicle. Sorry but even a short contemplation of doing so should cause one to break out in a cold sweat. |
#43
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Toyota gas pedal
On 2009-11-26, Bill Noble wrote:
"Lewis Hartswick" wrote in message m... TwoGuns wrote: Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT? Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL. PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience the proper way to react to a situation like this. DL What is even more UN-BELIEVABLE is doesn't ANYONE know there is an ignition switch that if turned off stops the motor??????? Just how STUPID can people be? Do they expect the GOVERNMENT to do it for them?????? ...lew... let's try this again R E A L S L O W L Y for those who weren't or didn't want to listen - there is NO ignition switch that acts like you say on this car, there is NO WAY to select neutral under full throttle, and there is solid evidence that the fault can be caused by software or something other than the rug - If there had been a traditional ignition switch, the passengers and driver would be alive. If there had been a traditional mechanical linkage to the transmission, the passengers and driver would be alive. These issues with Toyota go back a number of years, and as some others are pointing out, have been denied by Toyota and by NTSB despite significant evidence of a problem - if the dead had not included a CHP officer and if the 911 call had not been made, the denial would be continuing. Do you have any links to articles that explore this in detail? I shudder to think what would happen if I could not turn off my Taurus back then. Someone would end up dead, very possibly it would not even be me. thanks i Let us talk about the elimination of safety features, or the complexity of a modern vehicle that makes it possible for such things to happen, and quit calling the dead stupid for being unable to override the system when there was no override available. |
#44
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Toyota gas pedal
Do you have any links to articles that explore this in detail? I shudder to think what would happen if I could not turn off my Taurus back then. Someone would end up dead, very possibly it would not even be me. thanks i Try these for starters... there are MANY more, go Googling a while to see for yourself. Erik __________________________________________ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...rottle_control http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...ov26,0,7792141 ,full.story http://content.usatoday.com/communit...1/is-toyota-st ill-endangering-its-owners-with-a-floor-mat-recall-solution-that-doesnt-g o-far-enough/1 http://kansascity.injuryboard.com/au...ta-sudden-acce leration-recall-company-focuses-on-wrong-problem.aspx?googleid=275014 |
#45
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Toyota gas pedal
Erik, this is scary and fascinating, thanks for the links, I am going
through them now. i On 2009-11-27, Erik wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...rottle_control http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...141,full.story http://content.usatoday.com/communit...o-far-enough/1 http://kansascity.injuryboard.com/au...oogleid=275014 |
#46
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Toyota gas pedal
Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on
or about Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:49:53 -0800 did write/type or cause to appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:20:20 -0600, "David R.Birch" wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine. Gunner I have some black tipped 30'06 that probably would work w/ one shot. David Almost true. Get an old engine some time and shoot up half a box of it..and check how little damage you actually did. Ive done it a number of times..and its damned surprising how little damage you actually do. And Ive done it with a running engine about half of those times. Like people, engines are weird - something which should seem a problem stops them dead. Then sometimes, you can blow a hole in the crankcase, as the piston comes loose from the crankshaft, with the bottom of the piston rod hanging off the wires, and it still will run. Not as well on three cylinders, but enough to get home and to the shop the next day. Deranged English car with deranged English mechanic. His story, look him up. I think he's now in California. When one shoots to stop a moving vehicle..shoot the driver. At the least, the breaking glass might distract him. Shooting the engine might kill it - eventually. But it will take a while to 'bleed out'. - pyotr filipivich We will drink no whiskey before its nine. It's eight fifty eight. Close enough! |
#47
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Toyota gas pedal
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message ... On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:26:09 -0800, "Bill Noble" snip ---- They need a brake pressure sensor input goiing to the computer - if the brake pedal pressure is are over 25 lbs., ignore the throttle. They want to stop. RULE: Conflicting control inputs should invoke a Fail Safe. Replacing the floormats and modifying the gas pedal is a classic Red Herring. The problem is deeper, and allowing them to Mesmerize you with a fake fix isn't helping anything. -- Bruce -- agree - there is both denial at Toyota, and a lack of safety concern - when I designed safety critical systems that had software, I always assumed as part of the design that the software would do whatever the worst thing was (or worse things) and then made sure that there was a way to make the system safe even when the software did that stuff. Your examples are what I would call a "reasonableness check" - I also agree that all vehicles should have at least 3 positive ways of removing power from the drive train - in a manual transmission, the clutch does the trick, as does the shift lever, and a traditional ignition switch. an automatic would require a kill switch, fuel cutoff or other means. Since most cars have an electric fuel pump, stopping the pump will stop the car in short order so that is a possibility. If I had one of the affected Toyotas, or anything with a lot of software control, I'd add a manual switch that could interrupt power to the fuel pump or to the engine computer - either one will work, though the fuel pump will probably be easier and less likely to cause side effects. |
#48
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Toyota gas pedal
today's LA Times had two front page articles (in business section? in first
section? I don't remember) on toyota, it's problem with acceleration and it's problem with frame corrosion in the Tundras - it quotes someone saying that they were so intent on growth that they forgot quality. Sounds like GM of the 60s through 80s.... maybe we will start selling US made cars again "Ignoramus17202" wrote in message ... Erik, this is scary and fascinating, thanks for the links, I am going through them now. i On 2009-11-27, Erik wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...rottle_control http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...141,full.story http://content.usatoday.com/communit...o-far-enough/1 http://kansascity.injuryboard.com/au...oogleid=275014 |
#49
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Toyota gas pedal
"Bill Noble" writes:
before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was no key to turn to make it go off - 4 sec. If he'd thought of it, he could have tossed the RFID keys out the window... Get them far enough away and it stops. -- A host is a host from coast to & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 |
#50
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Toyota gas pedal
Gunner Asch writes:
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:53:04 +0000, Christopher Tidy Or if you're Gunner, you take out your piece and shoot the engine :-). Chris With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine. Depends where the ignition computer is mounted... -- A host is a host from coast to & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 |
#51
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Toyota gas pedal
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 07:52:42 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
wrote: Gunner Asch writes: On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:53:04 +0000, Christopher Tidy Or if you're Gunner, you take out your piece and shoot the engine :-). Chris With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine. Depends where the ignition computer is mounted... Indeed. So one cannot simply "shoot the front of the vehicle" a few times and stop it with any reliablity. Do you know where the computer of that car/truck that is aimed at you in anger? And is the motor in the way..if its in the passenger side? and is it verticle or horizontal? And is it behind a number of steel members that could easily deflect the bullet? Shoot the driver. Its a clear target. G Gunner "Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout" Unknown Usnet Poster Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls. Keyton |
#52
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Toyota gas pedal
On Nov 26, 2:49*pm, Ignoramus17202 ignoramus17...@NOSPAM.
17202.invalid wrote: Bruce, I liked your write up, but I have a much simpler solution to proper (read ergonomic and idiot proof) car design, when it comes to stuck gas pedals. As someone who experienced this situation, I sympathize with all others who had it. My proposed solution would be to detect when gas AND brake pedals are engaged simultaneously, and perform the following: 1) Disengage the transmission 2) Ignore the gas pedal signal and treat it as not depressed at all. These two things can cure those dangerous situations. I agree also that any car, no matter how "smart", should have a very easy means of killing the engine NO MATTER WHAT. i That assumes the pedal sensors are giving the correct output. Their wiring and connectors are high on the list of potential malfunctions, and although out-of-range sensor detection is simple, choosing a proper response isn't. Would you want the brakes to jam on while you were cornering on a wet mountain road, entering the freeway or barely beating a red light? Unless you have your hand on a big rheostat control lever all electric vehicles use remote electronic throttle control, and some like the Segway steer and brake electronically as well. Unfortunately I can't pursue this line of discussion further, but I share the concern and do what I can to make them safer. jsw |
#53
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Toyota gas pedal
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... On Nov 26, 2:49 pm, Ignoramus17202 ignoramus17...@NOSPAM. 17202.invalid wrote: Bruce, I liked your write up, but I have a much simpler solution to proper (read ergonomic and idiot proof) car design, when it comes to stuck gas pedals. As someone who experienced this situation, I sympathize with all others who had it. My proposed solution would be to detect when gas AND brake pedals are engaged simultaneously, and perform the following: 1) Disengage the transmission 2) Ignore the gas pedal signal and treat it as not depressed at all. These two things can cure those dangerous situations. I agree also that any car, no matter how "smart", should have a very easy means of killing the engine NO MATTER WHAT. I beware - this logic would probably be implemented via software, and as one who has in the past worked with safety critical systems, a software lockup is one thing to suspect - from a safety design point of view, an override that requries no software of any kind, and operates through separate wires and switches is needed. |
#54
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Toyota gas pedal
On Nov 27, 12:33*pm, "Bill Noble" wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message .... beware - this logic would probably be implemented via software, and as one who has in the past worked with safety critical systems, a software lockup is one thing to suspect - from a safety design point of view, an override that requries no software of any kind, and operates through separate wires and switches is needed.- The connection between the batteries, drive bridge and motors needs to be short and as low in resistance as reasonably possible. The components you might use to break that connection have their own failure modes, FETs can short and mechanical relays contacts can weld closed, mercury relays are TOO DANGEROUS FOR OUR CHILDREN. I'ved worked on designs that had an SCR across the load to blow ("crowbar") the main fuse, but that solution isn't perfect either. Even a big knife switch can weld and stick. I'm told the electric motor control panel on an old Diesel sub was a dangerous duty station. jsw |
#55
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Toyota gas pedal
On 2009-11-27, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 26, 2:49?pm, Ignoramus17202 ignoramus17...@NOSPAM. 17202.invalid wrote: Bruce, I liked your write up, but I have a much simpler solution to proper (read ergonomic and idiot proof) car design, when it comes to stuck gas pedals. As someone who experienced this situation, I sympathize with all others who had it. My proposed solution would be to detect when gas AND brake pedals are engaged simultaneously, and perform the following: 1) Disengage the transmission 2) Ignore the gas pedal signal and treat it as not depressed at all. These two things can cure those dangerous situations. I agree also that any car, no matter how "smart", should have a very easy means of killing the engine NO MATTER WHAT. i That assumes the pedal sensors are giving the correct output. Their wiring and connectors are high on the list of potential malfunctions, and although out-of-range sensor detection is simple, choosing a proper response isn't. Would you want the brakes to jam on while you were cornering on a wet mountain road, entering the freeway or barely beating a red light? That's not great, but what is the alternative to stopping the car when a brake is sensed as actuated? i Unless you have your hand on a big rheostat control lever all electric vehicles use remote electronic throttle control, and some like the Segway steer and brake electronically as well. Unfortunately I can't pursue this line of discussion further, but I share the concern and do what I can to make them safer. i |
#56
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Toyota gas pedal
Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 27, 12:33 pm, "Bill Noble" wrote: "Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... beware - this logic would probably be implemented via software, and as one who has in the past worked with safety critical systems, a software lockup is one thing to suspect - from a safety design point of view, an override that requries no software of any kind, and operates through separate wires and switches is needed.- The connection between the batteries, drive bridge and motors needs to be short and as low in resistance as reasonably possible. The components you might use to break that connection have their own failure modes, FETs can short and mechanical relays contacts can weld closed, mercury relays are TOO DANGEROUS FOR OUR CHILDREN. I'ved worked on designs that had an SCR across the load to blow ("crowbar") the main fuse, but that solution isn't perfect either. Even a big knife switch can weld and stick. I'm told the electric motor control panel on an old Diesel sub was a dangerous duty station. An explosive squib firing a contained blade through one of the conductors. First cost probably a lot less than an airbag. This technique was used on Pershing surface to surface missiles to implement an emergency power off. |
#57
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Toyota gas pedal
On Nov 27, 1:33*pm, Ignoramus11641 ignoramus11...@NOSPAM.
11641.invalid wrote: On 2009-11-27, Jim Wilkins wrote: ... That's not great, but what is the alternative to stopping the car when a brake is sensed as actuated? i A demonstrably reliable mechanical or hydraulic emergency brake that can overpower the motors long enough to stop??? http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-9670835-1.html Of course skis and skates don't have brakes either, but they aren't dangerous. If I had an airtight answer to this problem I'd patent it and get rich rather than revealing it here. jsw |
#58
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Toyota gas pedal
"David Lesher" wrote in message ... "Bill Noble" writes: before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was no key to turn to make it go off - 4 sec. If he'd thought of it, he could have tossed the RFID keys out the window... Get them far enough away and it stops. Nope, the car keeps running. But when you turn in off, can not restart. Learned this the hard way on wifes Venza. Dropped her off at the library and then went to Subway a couple blocks away to get lunch to go. At least it was only 4 blocks away from the library. Called her on the cell and said start walking. |
#59
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Toyota gas pedal
Lewis Hartswick wrote: Bill Noble wrote: let's try this again R E A L S L O W L Y for those who weren't or didn't want to listen - there is NO ignition switch that acts like you say on this car, It's (almost) impossible for me to believe that there are both engineers and government agencies that would permit such a thing to exist. How is it possible?????? It's part of the Democratic health care plan. Kill you off before you need a doctor. -- The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary! |
#60
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Toyota gas pedal
Ignoramus20054 wrote:
This happened to me once (gas pedal stuck under a mat). I was driving a Ford Taurus back then. I had about 1-2 seconds to think about it. My solution was to turn off the engine with the key. I almost **** my pants, as this happened in a parking lot full of people. Glad it worked for you, Igor. Sounds like my idea wasn't so bad, in a logically designed vehicle. Chris |
#61
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Toyota gas pedal
Ignoramus20054 wrote:
This happened to me once (gas pedal stuck under a mat). I was driving a Ford Taurus back then. I had about 1-2 seconds to think about it. My solution was to turn off the engine with the key. I almost **** my pants, as this happened in a parking lot full of people. i My 1991 Ranger 4x4 extended cab did the stuck pedal thing quite often. No big deal, 2.9L of non-performance engine, seldom had me going too fast while I dealt with it. I quick stomp cleared the problem. Heck, every time I passed a vehicle a head, my wife at the time, turned off the air conditioner w/o me having to ask her to do so. We joked, next truck we are going to get the optional engine. Now scary would be an electric car with a stuck throttle. Torque out the arse at low rpm. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
#62
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Toyota gas pedal
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:56:38 -0800, the infamous Jim Stewart
scrawled the following: TwoGuns wrote: Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT? Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL. I've had the misfortune of calling 911 a few times over the last 30 years. My experience is that the dispatchers are rote trained to dispatch and nothing else. It probably never entered the dispatcher's mind to solve the problem if he/she had never been trained to. PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience the proper way to react to a situation like this. No quarrel there. I think in most cars, a *hard* *sustained* braking effort would probably also work. Both feet on the pedal and don't let up until it grinds to a stop. And whatever you do, don't turn off the ignition to slow the car. Even if they turn it too far and lock the steering, it's not nearly as dangerous as WFO. -- Q: How many climate scientists does it take to change a light bulb? A: None. There's a consensus that it's going to change, so they've decided to keep us in the dark. |
#63
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Toyota gas pedal
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:53:50 -0600, the infamous Ignoramus20054
scrawled the following: This happened to me once (gas pedal stuck under a mat). I was driving a Ford Taurus back then. I had about 1-2 seconds to think about it. My solution was to turn off the engine with the key. I almost **** my pants, as this happened in a parking lot full of people. Ditto here, in my 1970 Javelin Mark Donahue Special. My friend said I spun the manhole cover off and sent it spinning a couple blocks down the street, but I was busy with the WFO. By the time I hit 3rd, I could finally (without redlining the 425 horsepower 390) reach up and switch off the key. Once shut down, it returned to normal and never locked again. Whew! I stopped about 50' short of the next blvd. -- Q: How many climate scientists does it take to change a light bulb? A: None. There's a consensus that it's going to change, so they've decided to keep us in the dark. |
#64
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Toyota gas pedal
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:17:25 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: [snip] When one shoots to stop a moving vehicle..shoot the driver. That'll just randomize its direction of travel. Engine blocks are what a Barrett is for. True indeed. But its rare that when the driver takes a couple hits to the chest and head..his foot stays on the gas. Gunner "Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout" Unknown Usnet Poster Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls. Keyton |
#65
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Toyota gas pedal
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:41:12 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:53:50 -0600, the infamous Ignoramus20054 scrawled the following: This happened to me once (gas pedal stuck under a mat). I was driving a Ford Taurus back then. I had about 1-2 seconds to think about it. My solution was to turn off the engine with the key. I almost **** my pants, as this happened in a parking lot full of people. Ditto here, in my 1970 Javelin Mark Donahue Special. My friend said I spun the manhole cover off and sent it spinning a couple blocks down the street, but I was busy with the WFO. By the time I hit 3rd, I could finally (without redlining the 425 horsepower 390) reach up and switch off the key. Once shut down, it returned to normal and never locked again. Whew! I stopped about 50' short of the next blvd. Never had that happen...well..once..in a big International water truck. Had an Allison 12speed automatic..and 8000 pounds of water works boosters in crates on the deck. A very safe explosive..but the 200 blasting caps in the cab with me were a certain concern. Anyways..was coming down a trail and something "happened"..and the rig started roaring and speeding and just jumping around going faster and faster downhill. There was a sharp 90' turn at the bottom and I hit the jake brake, stomped on the brake pedal as hard as it would go..and Im going faster and faster and blowing my horn hoping no one would be driving around that 90' corner and its getting closer and closer and then I hit the corner and ran right straight through it and wound up about a mile away from it before the rig shut itself down. There I was..in the middle of the Great Plains..out in the middle of the biggest flat spot Id ever seen..but..I was safe. The little hill behind me that Id come roaring down, had about 20 guys sitting on it, all eating lunch and paying no attention at all. Now...brake failures...Ive got a couple nasty stories about those....brrrrr... Gunner "Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout" Unknown Usnet Poster Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls. Keyton |
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Toyota gas pedal
Hot off the press, another LA Times front page article on the Toyota's
runaway issue... http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...9nov29,0,52545 84.story Erik |
#67
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Toyota gas pedal
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:38:17 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote: "David Lesher" wrote in message ... "Bill Noble" writes: before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was no key to turn to make it go off - 4 sec. If he'd thought of it, he could have tossed the RFID keys out the window... Get them far enough away and it stops. Nope, the car keeps running. But when you turn in off, can not restart. Learned this the hard way on wifes Venza. Dropped her off at the library and then went to Subway a couple blocks away to get lunch to go. At least it was only 4 blocks away from the library. Called her on the cell and said start walking. Precisely - those brilliant Spit! engineers didn't want to possibly inconvenience the driver with the car inadvertently shutting down on the freeway just because Mom's Purse with the key-fob in it got thrown to the back of the car by playing children. And the driver might want the car to stay idling as they walk around to the tailgate to get something out of the ice chest, or get out to go close and lock the gates as they leave home - we can't all afford electric gate operators. BUT they didn't think through the What If's, the emergency situations. And I did the first time I saw an advertising slick with that whiz-bang new Start button, and no Stop button nearby... Deja Vu to the max. -- Bruce -- |
#68
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Toyota gas pedal
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 23:42:03 -0800, "Bill Noble"
wrote: "Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:26:09 -0800, "Bill Noble" snip ---- They need a brake pressure sensor input goiing to the computer - if the brake pedal pressure is are over 25 lbs., ignore the throttle. They want to stop. RULE: Conflicting control inputs should invoke a Fail Safe. Replacing the floormats and modifying the gas pedal is a classic Red Herring. The problem is deeper, and allowing them to Mesmerize you with a fake fix isn't helping anything. -- Bruce -- agree - there is both denial at Toyota, and a lack of safety concern - when I designed safety critical systems that had software, I always assumed as part of the design that the software would do whatever the worst thing was (or worse things) and then made sure that there was a way to make the system safe even when the software did that stuff. Your examples are what I would call a "reasonableness check" - I also agree that all vehicles should have at least 3 positive ways of removing power from the drive train - in a manual transmission, the clutch does the trick, as does the shift lever, and a traditional ignition switch. an automatic would require a kill switch, fuel cutoff or other means. Since most cars have an electric fuel pump, stopping the pump will stop the car in short order so that is a possibility. If I had one of the affected Toyotas, or anything with a lot of software control, I'd add a manual switch that could interrupt power to the fuel pump or to the engine computer - either one will work, though the fuel pump will probably be easier and less likely to cause side effects. Just have to be careful what you cut, and how. You don't want to damage things in the shudown or start throwing diagnostic codes, so cutting the fuel pump power is probably safest. Or if you want a mechanical backup, pull a knob and a cable operated valve shuts off a ball valve on the fuel line. On a diesel, the good old fashioned manual air damper works - pull a lever, cable linkage drops a cork into the air cleaner snout. Very useful on an engine that has sprung a leak and is ingesting it's own motor oil and running away. (Happens often enough to mention on the horizontal Detroits on mid- engine Crown Coaches. Other than that, the darned things will live just about forever if you keep fresh oil and grease in them. ) -- Bruce -- |
#69
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Toyota gas pedal
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:56:09 -0700, Lewis Hartswick
wrote: Bill Noble wrote: let's try this again R E A L S L O W L Y for those who weren't or didn't want to listen - there is NO ignition switch that acts like you say on this car, It's (almost) impossible for me to believe that there are both engineers and government agencies that would permit such a thing to exist. How is it possible?????? Some (politician-type) body in charge of the DOT Oversight Committee probably got greased with a big political contribution (or a "Friends of Angelo" style deal on a new Lexus) and the rules in the FMVSS were magically modified to allow it - or they just interpreeted the existing rules do not apply to the "Start Button" system. I still have nightmares from my wayward youth, hosteling a dozen different cars between home and work and friends and neighbors. All of them with radically different controls placements - Other than the gas and brakes and sterering wheel, you could not react by reflex, because inevitabgly you werern't grabbing in the right place. The headlight dimmer could be in a half dozen places - the new stalk style, on the floor high and between the gas and brake, down low left of the brakes, up high left of the brakes, high and waaaaay over to the left by the sidewall of the motorhome that you had to hunt for... A dozen different shifters, including Richard's Dodge Dart with the Pushbutton Fluid Drive, my Corvair Powerglide with the paddle for R-N-D-L (no park pawl, no Park!) the 67 Dodge 600 chassis Executive motorhome with a different style cluster shifter, on the tree, on the floor, six different stick patterns with reverse in odd directions, one truck with "Three On the Tree", another with a Granny Box 4-speed on the Tree... And then there's the parking brakes, operation and location... And the wiper switch... And the headlights... It's nice nowadays to only have to grab through two or three spots before you find the control you want. Let us talk about the elimination of safety features, or the complexity of a modern vehicle that makes it possible for such things to happen, and quit calling the dead stupid for being unable to override the system when there was no override available. In that case the only "stupid" event that I can think of is driving such a vehicle. Sorry but even a short contemplation of doing so should cause one to break out in a cold sweat. Much of this would be solved if they made the new vehicle owner read the Owners Manual of their new car cover to cover /for comprehension/ - and you have to pass a written mixed Multiple Choice and Essay test, and a Practical test on basic under-hood maintenance and daily inspection, before they let you drive it off the lot. One of the questions on that Lexus-specific test would be "How do you stop the engine in an emergency? A: Open the door and drag your feet on the ground B: Start praying Hail Mary's at the top of your lungs C: Call the dealer on your cellphone and ask them D: Press and hold in the Start button for at least four seconds E: All of the above Modern automobiles are far too complex for the driver to be totally and blissfully clueless about their proper operation. In the immortal words of Dean Vernon Wormer, "Fat Drunk and Stupid is no way to go through life, son!" Even if you will call the Auto Club 99% of the time, there will be that time they are swamped. All drivers should be know what a bad tire looks like and how to change a flat. Where the jack and spare are stowed, and check monthly that the spare has air in it... Know how to do a Circle Of Safety check every time they get in the car to drive. That alone would eliminate the "Father backs car out of driveway, runs over child playing in driveway" tragedies. Do a full daily walk-around check for tail-lights and tires and leaks, and a full light function check once a week. Be able to check the fluids under the hood once a week, and the air in the all tires at least once a month. Know where your Fire Extinguisher is mounted, how to use it, and how to check the gauge. Have a stash of 12 road flares and know how to light and safely place one (NOT in a puddle of gas!), basic hand tools, gloves and goggles in the trunk. -- Bruce -- |
#70
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Toyota gas pedal
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:02:47 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote: On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:38:17 -0800, "Bill McKee" wrote: "David Lesher" wrote in message ... "Bill Noble" writes: before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was no key to turn to make it go off - 4 sec. If he'd thought of it, he could have tossed the RFID keys out the window... Get them far enough away and it stops. Nope, the car keeps running. But when you turn in off, can not restart. Learned this the hard way on wifes Venza. Dropped her off at the library and then went to Subway a couple blocks away to get lunch to go. At least it was only 4 blocks away from the library. Called her on the cell and said start walking. Precisely - those brilliant Spit! engineers didn't want to possibly inconvenience the driver with the car inadvertently shutting down on the freeway just because Mom's Purse with the key-fob in it got thrown to the back of the car by playing children. And the driver might want the car to stay idling as they walk around to the tailgate to get something out of the ice chest, or get out to go close and lock the gates as they leave home - we can't all afford electric gate operators. BUT they didn't think through the What If's, the emergency situations. And I did the first time I saw an advertising slick with that whiz-bang new Start button, and no Stop button nearby... Deja Vu to the max. -- Bruce -- Aren't these cars push to start, hold down to stop, just like most computers? Faced with that in an unfamiliar car, and presuming that no big button labeled "stop" was obvious, I'm pretty sure that the logic of its operation would be instinctive. But if it wasn't, I'd expect it to be my job to get out the owner's manual. I suppose one could make a case that a person could say, borrow one of these cars and drive it away without ever knowing how to shut it off, and that such a situation must be prevented. I'm sure there's a way to further idiot-proof such machines, but no matter how they're changed, a better idiot will always find a way to defeat the best of intentions. Consider how many accidents are caused by drivers standing on the gas pedal when they intended the brake. Expect a LOT more of that with aging, oft times barely conscious drivers who never did learn to use their turn signal *before* slowing down. It's one of my pet peeves that as a society we've accepted that no one should be counted on to accept responsibility, even for the most trivial of decisions such as wearing sensible shoes. I fear that the majority reaction to the case at hand is just another example of encouraging people to believe that somebody else is always responsible for every mishap. The irony is that thousands of people who've complained that cars these days are too difficult and expensive to repair, will now join the chorus demanding yet another interlock system taking up an additional page in the owner's manual that they'll refuse to read. Plus 5 extra pages of the shop manual, which already costs so much that few individuals can afford it. In case there's anyone reading who'd like to review a shop manual for a modern vehicle, here's a link to the one for my car. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8WC2QLY0 (300 MB download) For fun, try to guess how many pages it might be before you scroll through to the end. Prefer a paper copy? It's about $500 IIRC. We have met the enemy, and he is us. Wayne |
#71
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Toyota gas pedal
On Nov 28, 3:28*pm, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote: * One of the questions on that Lexus-specific test would be "How do you stop the engine in an emergency? A: Open the door and drag your feet on the ground .... E: All of the above F: Jesus Take the Wheel * Modern automobiles are far too complex for the driver to be totally and blissfully clueless about their proper operation. * Ask people if they were taught not to brake while cornering hard. * Do a full daily walk-around check for tail-lights and tires and leaks, and a full light function check once a week. -- Bruce -- If I do that in public half the time someone will come over to ask what's the problem (that I couldn't fix) I tell them I learned to pre-flight an aircraft and like to do it to the car, too. jsw |
#72
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Toyota gas pedal
wrote in message ... On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:02:47 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman wrote: On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:38:17 -0800, "Bill McKee" wrote: "David Lesher" wrote in message ... "Bill Noble" writes: before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was no key to turn to make it go off - 4 sec. If he'd thought of it, he could have tossed the RFID keys out the window... Get them far enough away and it stops. Nope, the car keeps running. But when you turn in off, can not restart. Learned this the hard way on wifes Venza. Dropped her off at the library and then went to Subway a couple blocks away to get lunch to go. At least it was only 4 blocks away from the library. Called her on the cell and said start walking. Precisely - those brilliant Spit! engineers didn't want to possibly inconvenience the driver with the car inadvertently shutting down on the freeway just because Mom's Purse with the key-fob in it got thrown to the back of the car by playing children. And the driver might want the car to stay idling as they walk around to the tailgate to get something out of the ice chest, or get out to go close and lock the gates as they leave home - we can't all afford electric gate operators. BUT they didn't think through the What If's, the emergency situations. And I did the first time I saw an advertising slick with that whiz-bang new Start button, and no Stop button nearby... Deja Vu to the max. -- Bruce -- Aren't these cars push to start, hold down to stop, just like most computers? Faced with that in an unfamiliar car, and presuming that no big button labeled "stop" was obvious, I'm pretty sure that the logic of its operation would be instinctive. But if it wasn't, I'd expect it to be my job to get out the owner's manual. I suppose one could make a case that a person could say, borrow one of these cars and drive it away without ever knowing how to shut it off, and that such a situation must be prevented. I'm sure there's a way to further idiot-proof such machines, but no matter how they're changed, a better idiot will always find a way to defeat the best of intentions. Consider how many accidents are caused by drivers standing on the gas pedal when they intended the brake. Expect a LOT more of that with aging, oft times barely conscious drivers who never did learn to use their turn signal *before* slowing down. It's one of my pet peeves that as a society we've accepted that no one should be counted on to accept responsibility, even for the most trivial of decisions such as wearing sensible shoes. I fear that the majority reaction to the case at hand is just another example of encouraging people to believe that somebody else is always responsible for every mishap. The irony is that thousands of people who've complained that cars these days are too difficult and expensive to repair, will now join the chorus demanding yet another interlock system taking up an additional page in the owner's manual that they'll refuse to read. Plus 5 extra pages of the shop manual, which already costs so much that few individuals can afford it. In case there's anyone reading who'd like to review a shop manual for a modern vehicle, here's a link to the one for my car. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8WC2QLY0 (300 MB download) For fun, try to guess how many pages it might be before you scroll through to the end. Prefer a paper copy? It's about $500 IIRC. We have met the enemy, and he is us. Wayne In gear, and with the brakes applied, the engine turned off as soon as I pushed the button on the wifes Venza today. Admitted I was not driving 100 miles an hour, was stopped in the Costco parking lot. So if the guy had hit the start stop button while trying to brake the car, the engine would of stopped, at least on a new Venza. |
#73
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Toyota gas pedal
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 21:17:05 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:02:47 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman wrote: On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:38:17 -0800, "Bill McKee" wrote: "David Lesher" wrote in message ... "Bill Noble" writes: before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was no key to turn to make it go off - 4 sec. If he'd thought of it, he could have tossed the RFID keys out the window... Get them far enough away and it stops. Nope, the car keeps running. But when you turn in off, can not restart. Learned this the hard way on wifes Venza. Dropped her off at the library and then went to Subway a couple blocks away to get lunch to go. At least it was only 4 blocks away from the library. Called her on the cell and said start walking. Precisely - those brilliant Spit! engineers didn't want to possibly inconvenience the driver with the car inadvertently shutting down on the freeway just because Mom's Purse with the key-fob in it got thrown to the back of the car by playing children. And the driver might want the car to stay idling as they walk around to the tailgate to get something out of the ice chest, or get out to go close and lock the gates as they leave home - we can't all afford electric gate operators. BUT they didn't think through the What If's, the emergency situations. And I did the first time I saw an advertising slick with that whiz-bang new Start button, and no Stop button nearby... Deja Vu to the max. -- Bruce -- Aren't these cars push to start, hold down to stop, just like most computers? Faced with that in an unfamiliar car, and presuming that no big button labeled "stop" was obvious, I'm pretty sure that the logic of its operation would be instinctive. But if it wasn't, I'd expect it to be my job to get out the owner's manual. I suppose one could make a case that a person could say, borrow one of these cars and drive it away without ever knowing how to shut it off, and that such a situation must be prevented. I'm sure there's a way to further idiot-proof such machines, but no matter how they're changed, a better idiot will always find a way to defeat the best of intentions. Consider how many accidents are caused by drivers standing on the gas pedal when they intended the brake. Expect a LOT more of that with aging, oft times barely conscious drivers who never did learn to use their turn signal *before* slowing down. It's one of my pet peeves that as a society we've accepted that no one should be counted on to accept responsibility, even for the most trivial of decisions such as wearing sensible shoes. I fear that the majority reaction to the case at hand is just another example of encouraging people to believe that somebody else is always responsible for every mishap. The irony is that thousands of people who've complained that cars these days are too difficult and expensive to repair, will now join the chorus demanding yet another interlock system taking up an additional page in the owner's manual that they'll refuse to read. Plus 5 extra pages of the shop manual, which already costs so much that few individuals can afford it. In case there's anyone reading who'd like to review a shop manual for a modern vehicle, here's a link to the one for my car. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8WC2QLY0 (300 MB download) For fun, try to guess how many pages it might be before you scroll through to the end. Prefer a paper copy? It's about $500 IIRC. We have met the enemy, and he is us. Wayne In gear, and with the brakes applied, the engine turned off as soon as I pushed the button on the wifes Venza today. Admitted I was not driving 100 miles an hour, was stopped in the Costco parking lot. So if the guy had hit the start stop button while trying to brake the car, the engine would of stopped, at least on a new Venza. According to Toyota, they can be stopped with 150 pounds of force of the brake pedal. It seems to me that standing on the brake would be the first instinct of most. Of course in a panic situation there will always be plenty who won't do the obvious, plus some more who lack the coordination to do much more than steer. Wayne |
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Toyota gas pedal
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... On Nov 25, 7:13 pm, Christopher Tidy wrote: Or just switch off the engine. Chris In a panic it would be difficult to switch it one faint click to kill the engine, and not two clicks and lock the steering. jsw On a Toyota you have to push a button to rotate the key to "lock" position. Other cars have some mechanism top prevent a panic switch off from locking the steering. On some you need to remove the key, some you need to have the car in park or some have the button or lever. -- Roger Shoaf About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then they come up with this striped stuff. |
#75
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Toyota gas pedal
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:41:21 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns
wrote: Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT? Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL. PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience the proper way to react to a situation like this. DL How about just turning the key off? That would kill the engine and the problem would go away. You are correct in your assessment that everyone in the broadcast business is a clueless idiot. They can't be bothered to research the subject. Jim |
#76
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Toyota gas pedal
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:35:26 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns
wrote: On Nov 25, 6:13*pm, Christopher Tidy wrote: TwoGuns wrote: Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT? Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL. PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience the proper way to react to a situation like this. Or just switch off the engine. Chris Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and hit send before thinking about it Chris. DL Apparently you are not familiar with the fact that the OFF position is the first detent out of on and the LOCK is the second and requires the wheel to be in a certain position to lock. Try it sometime. Turn off your engine with the wheel turned to one side or the other. It will not lock until the wheel is turned to a specific spot. Therefore, the argument that the wheel will lock if you turn off the ignition is not valid. Jim |
#77
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Toyota gas pedal
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:14:18 -0800, Jim Chandler wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:41:21 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns wrote: Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT? Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL. PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience the proper way to react to a situation like this. DL How about just turning the key off? That would kill the engine and the problem would go away. You are correct in your assessment that everyone in the broadcast business is a clueless idiot. They can't be bothered to research the subject. Jim Many vehicles these days do NOT use keys. The car in question didnt have a key..but a "start button"..and to shut it down requires one to press it for up to 4 seconds. You just got here..right ? G Gunner "Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout" Unknown Usnet Poster Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls. Keyton |
#78
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Toyota gas pedal
"Jim Chandler" wrote in message ... On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:41:21 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns wrote: Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT? Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL. PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience the proper way to react to a situation like this. DL How about just turning the key off? That would kill the engine and the problem would go away. You are correct in your assessment that everyone in the broadcast business is a clueless idiot. They can't be bothered to research the subject. Jim and, mr Jim, perhaps you haven't been reading anything at all about this? How else could you make the above post - Many journalists DID research the subject, the links have been posted here, did you not see them? |
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Toyota gas pedal
"Erik" wrote
"Bill Noble" wrote: probably, but lawsuits don't bring back the dead. One advantage of driving a standard transmission car is that there is almost nothing that can prevent you from disconnecting the engine from the drive train - you have both a clutch and a shift lever (and the skill to use them). Ahhh... but with some sticks you can be surprised by the occasional busted clutch cable. Been there done that it is no problem to push out of gear so one can stop. The tricky part is knowing how to get home after the stop by starting in first and then work your way up the gears by RPM matching so as not to destroy the transmission. Every clutch owner should try it out before it is absolutely needed. Stephen B. |
#80
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Toyota gas pedal
"Stephen B." wrote: "Erik" wrote "Bill Noble" wrote: probably, but lawsuits don't bring back the dead. One advantage of driving a standard transmission car is that there is almost nothing that can prevent you from disconnecting the engine from the drive train - you have both a clutch and a shift lever (and the skill to use them). Ahhh... but with some sticks you can be surprised by the occasional busted clutch cable. Been there done that it is no problem to push out of gear so one can stop. The tricky part is knowing how to get home after the stop by starting in first and then work your way up the gears by RPM matching so as not to destroy the transmission. Every clutch owner should try it out before it is absolutely needed. Try getting home when every rivet in the clutch shears off, allowing the inner steel disk to spin inside the clutch disks. -- The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary! |
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