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Default Toyota gas pedal

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:26:09 -0800, "Bill Noble"
wrote:
"TwoGuns" wrote in message
...


Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.


before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the
car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required
holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was
no key to turn to make it go off -


Cars long ago stopped being simple mechanical devices, and turned into
complex industrial equipment - they need to start applying the
standard industrial equipment design rules to them.

On the Lexus SUV incident with the Off Duty CHP Officer and family,
that was a dealer service loaner that the driver was NOT familiar
with, it had all the fancy goodies that are suspect in these failures.
The ignition system on those is a Security Key Fob in your pocket or
purse that activates the door locks, and allows you to push a green
"Engine Start" button on the dash - no key. You have to push and hold
the "Start" button for IIRC four seconds for it to turn the ignition
back off.

Any industrial design person would have placed a Big Red Button on
the dashboard clearly marked "Engine Stop" - even if it has a flip-up
bump cover so you can't hit it accidentally. And no time delay - NOW.

The shifter is something fancy with paddles to step through the
gears on some cars, and yes there should be a clearly marked control
or button for Neutral...

I thought that was covered by the FMVSS rules on controls
standardization in the late 1960's that got us away from a dozen
different auto-tranny shift patterns and toward the unified P-R-N-D-L
pattern, and the restrictor gate system so you can't slam straight
through to Park without stopping at Neutral first...

And eventually led to the "Press brake pedal to shift out of
Neutral" interlocks...

And away from odd push-pull-twist controls to the Multi-Function Stalk
with the lights wiper and turn signals all on one easy to break arm.

People are saying "The steering wheel will lock if you turn off the
key!" - NOT if you only go one click back to turn off the ignition.
And on most cars it should be interlocked to NOT go to Lock till the
shifter is in Park. (Yes, there are exceptions. Can't protect
everyone from everything.)

Everyone claims "Pedal Misapplication" - these cars have a "Fly By
Wire" throttle with a pedal sensor telling the ECU computer what the
driver wants, and an integrated Cruise Control. I'm betting we have a
systems failure there somewhere, and the computer goes "Full throttle?
Sure, Boss!"

There are claims of "You can stop it with the brakes, even if the
engine is at full throttle..." BULL****. An expert driver maybe,
immediate problem recognition, both feet mashing on the brakes for all
you are worth, and swing it straight to the shoulder. And it's going
to feel like you just went 9 rounds with Muhammad Ali.

But if you can't pull off the stop right this moment, and arent a big
strong guy with the brute leg strength to fight a V-8 and win, it
won't take long to heat-soak the brakes till they fade to nothing.

And then you have no chance at all - even if you get the engine shut
down, you still have to deal with 'no brakes' from the heat fade.

They need a brake pressure sensor input goiing to the computer - if
the brake pedal pressure is are over 25 lbs., ignore the throttle.
They want to stop.

RULE: Conflicting control inputs should invoke a Fail Safe.

Replacing the floormats and modifying the gas pedal is a classic Red
Herring. The problem is deeper, and allowing them to Mesmerize you
with a fake fix isn't helping anything.


I completely agree. I've made devices that have left/right controls and if
you try to do both at once, they cut each other out and stop because if
you're trying to do both at once, something is very wrong.

If these cars are really fly by wire, do they really lack any sort of
sensor on what the mechanical brake pedal is doing? ABS stuff has to know
when you're really trying to brake.




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Bill Noble wrote:
let's try this again R E A L S L O W L Y for those who weren't or
didn't want to listen - there is NO ignition switch that acts like you
say on this car,


It's (almost) impossible for me to believe that there are both
engineers and government agencies that would permit such a thing
to exist. How is it possible??????

Let us talk about the elimination of safety features, or the complexity
of a modern vehicle that makes it possible for such things to happen,
and quit calling the dead stupid for being unable to override the system
when there was no override available.


In that case the only "stupid" event that I can think of is
driving such a vehicle. Sorry but even a short contemplation
of doing so should cause one to break out in a cold sweat.

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On 2009-11-26, Bill Noble wrote:


"Lewis Hartswick" wrote in message
m...
TwoGuns wrote:
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

DL

What is even more UN-BELIEVABLE is doesn't ANYONE know
there is an ignition switch that if turned off stops
the motor??????? Just how STUPID can people be? Do
they expect the GOVERNMENT to do it for them??????
...lew...


let's try this again R E A L S L O W L Y for those who weren't or
didn't want to listen - there is NO ignition switch that acts like you say
on this car, there is NO WAY to select neutral under full throttle, and
there is solid evidence that the fault can be caused by software or
something other than the rug - If there had been a traditional ignition
switch, the passengers and driver would be alive. If there had been a
traditional mechanical linkage to the transmission, the passengers and
driver would be alive. These issues with Toyota go back a number of years,
and as some others are pointing out, have been denied by Toyota and by NTSB
despite significant evidence of a problem - if the dead had not included a
CHP officer and if the 911 call had not been made, the denial would be
continuing.


Do you have any links to articles that explore this in detail?

I shudder to think what would happen if I could not turn off my Taurus
back then. Someone would end up dead, very possibly it would not even
be me.

thanks

i

Let us talk about the elimination of safety features, or the complexity of a
modern vehicle that makes it possible for such things to happen, and quit
calling the dead stupid for being unable to override the system when there
was no override available.

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Do you have any links to articles that explore this in detail?

I shudder to think what would happen if I could not turn off my Taurus
back then. Someone would end up dead, very possibly it would not even
be me.

thanks

i


Try these for starters... there are MANY more, go Googling a while to
see for yourself.

Erik
__________________________________________

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...rottle_control

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...ov26,0,7792141
,full.story

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...1/is-toyota-st
ill-endangering-its-owners-with-a-floor-mat-recall-solution-that-doesnt-g
o-far-enough/1

http://kansascity.injuryboard.com/au...ta-sudden-acce
leration-recall-company-focuses-on-wrong-problem.aspx?googleid=275014
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Erik, this is scary and fascinating, thanks for the links, I am going
through them now.

i

On 2009-11-27, Erik wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...rottle_control
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...141,full.story

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...o-far-enough/1

http://kansascity.injuryboard.com/au...oogleid=275014



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Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on
or about Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:49:53 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:20:20 -0600, "David R.Birch"
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a
couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine.

Gunner


I have some black tipped 30'06 that probably would work w/ one shot.

David


Almost true. Get an old engine some time and shoot up half a box of
it..and check how little damage you actually did.

Ive done it a number of times..and its damned surprising how little
damage you actually do. And Ive done it with a running engine about half
of those times.


Like people, engines are weird - something which should seem a
problem stops them dead.
Then sometimes, you can blow a hole in the crankcase, as the
piston comes loose from the crankshaft, with the bottom of the piston
rod hanging off the wires, and it still will run. Not as well on
three cylinders, but enough to get home and to the shop the next day.
Deranged English car with deranged English mechanic. His story, look
him up. I think he's now in California.

When one shoots to stop a moving vehicle..shoot the driver.


At the least, the breaking glass might distract him.

Shooting the engine might kill it - eventually. But it will take
a while to 'bleed out'.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!
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"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:26:09 -0800, "Bill Noble"


snip ----

They need a brake pressure sensor input goiing to the computer - if
the brake pedal pressure is are over 25 lbs., ignore the throttle.
They want to stop.

RULE: Conflicting control inputs should invoke a Fail Safe.

Replacing the floormats and modifying the gas pedal is a classic Red
Herring. The problem is deeper, and allowing them to Mesmerize you
with a fake fix isn't helping anything.

-- Bruce --


agree - there is both denial at Toyota, and a lack of safety concern - when
I designed safety critical systems that had software, I always assumed as
part of the design that the software would do whatever the worst thing was
(or worse things) and then made sure that there was a way to make the system
safe even when the software did that stuff. Your examples are what I would
call a "reasonableness check" - I also agree that all vehicles should have
at least 3 positive ways of removing power from the drive train - in a
manual transmission, the clutch does the trick, as does the shift lever, and
a traditional ignition switch. an automatic would require a kill switch,
fuel cutoff or other means. Since most cars have an electric fuel pump,
stopping the pump will stop the car in short order so that is a possibility.
If I had one of the affected Toyotas, or anything with a lot of software
control, I'd add a manual switch that could interrupt power to the fuel pump
or to the engine computer - either one will work, though the fuel pump will
probably be easier and less likely to cause side effects.



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today's LA Times had two front page articles (in business section? in first
section? I don't remember) on toyota, it's problem with acceleration and
it's problem with frame corrosion in the Tundras - it quotes someone saying
that they were so intent on growth that they forgot quality. Sounds like
GM of the 60s through 80s.... maybe we will start selling US made cars again

"Ignoramus17202" wrote in message
...
Erik, this is scary and fascinating, thanks for the links, I am going
through them now.

i

On 2009-11-27, Erik wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...rottle_control
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...141,full.story

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...o-far-enough/1

http://kansascity.injuryboard.com/au...oogleid=275014


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"Bill Noble" writes:

before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the
car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required
holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was
no key to turn to make it go off -


4 sec.

If he'd thought of it, he could have tossed the RFID keys out the window...

Get them far enough away and it stops.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
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Gunner Asch writes:

On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:53:04 +0000, Christopher Tidy
Or if you're Gunner, you take out your piece and shoot the engine :-).

Chris



With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a
couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine.



Depends where the ignition computer is mounted...


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433


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On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 07:52:42 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
wrote:

Gunner Asch writes:

On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:53:04 +0000, Christopher Tidy
Or if you're Gunner, you take out your piece and shoot the engine :-).

Chris



With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a
couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine.



Depends where the ignition computer is mounted...



Indeed. So one cannot simply "shoot the front of the vehicle" a few
times and stop it with any reliablity.

Do you know where the computer of that car/truck that is aimed at you
in anger? And is the motor in the way..if its in the passenger side?

and is it verticle or horizontal? And is it behind a number of steel
members that could easily deflect the bullet?

Shoot the driver. Its a clear target.

G

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton
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On Nov 26, 2:49*pm, Ignoramus17202 ignoramus17...@NOSPAM.
17202.invalid wrote:
Bruce, I liked your write up, but I have a much simpler solution to
proper (read ergonomic and idiot proof) car design, when it comes to
stuck gas pedals. As someone who experienced this situation, I
sympathize with all others who had it.

My proposed solution would be to detect when gas AND brake pedals are
engaged simultaneously, and perform the following:

1) Disengage the transmission
2) Ignore the gas pedal signal and treat it as not depressed at all.

These two things can cure those dangerous situations.

I agree also that any car, no matter how "smart", should have a very
easy means of killing the engine NO MATTER WHAT.

i


That assumes the pedal sensors are giving the correct output. Their
wiring and connectors are high on the list of potential malfunctions,
and although out-of-range sensor detection is simple, choosing a
proper response isn't. Would you want the brakes to jam on while you
were cornering on a wet mountain road, entering the freeway or barely
beating a red light?

Unless you have your hand on a big rheostat control lever all electric
vehicles use remote electronic throttle control, and some like the
Segway steer and brake electronically as well. Unfortunately I can't
pursue this line of discussion further, but I share the concern and do
what I can to make them safer.

jsw
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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Nov 26, 2:49 pm, Ignoramus17202 ignoramus17...@NOSPAM.
17202.invalid wrote:
Bruce, I liked your write up, but I have a much simpler solution to
proper (read ergonomic and idiot proof) car design, when it comes to
stuck gas pedals. As someone who experienced this situation, I
sympathize with all others who had it.

My proposed solution would be to detect when gas AND brake pedals are
engaged simultaneously, and perform the following:

1) Disengage the transmission
2) Ignore the gas pedal signal and treat it as not depressed at all.

These two things can cure those dangerous situations.

I agree also that any car, no matter how "smart", should have a very
easy means of killing the engine NO MATTER WHAT.

I



beware - this logic would probably be implemented via software, and as one
who has in the past worked with safety critical systems, a software lockup
is one thing to suspect - from a safety design point of view, an override
that requries no software of any kind, and operates through separate wires
and switches is needed.

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On Nov 27, 12:33*pm, "Bill Noble" wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

....

beware - this logic would probably be implemented via software, and as one
who has in the past worked with safety critical systems, a software lockup
is one thing to suspect - from a safety design point of view, an override
that requries no software of any kind, and operates through separate wires
and switches is needed.-


The connection between the batteries, drive bridge and motors needs to
be short and as low in resistance as reasonably possible. The
components you might use to break that connection have their own
failure modes, FETs can short and mechanical relays contacts can weld
closed, mercury relays are TOO DANGEROUS FOR OUR CHILDREN. I'ved
worked on designs that had an SCR across the load to blow ("crowbar")
the main fuse, but that solution isn't perfect either. Even a big
knife switch can weld and stick. I'm told the electric motor control
panel on an old Diesel sub was a dangerous duty station.

jsw
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On 2009-11-27, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 26, 2:49?pm, Ignoramus17202 ignoramus17...@NOSPAM.
17202.invalid wrote:
Bruce, I liked your write up, but I have a much simpler solution to
proper (read ergonomic and idiot proof) car design, when it comes to
stuck gas pedals. As someone who experienced this situation, I
sympathize with all others who had it.

My proposed solution would be to detect when gas AND brake pedals are
engaged simultaneously, and perform the following:

1) Disengage the transmission
2) Ignore the gas pedal signal and treat it as not depressed at all.

These two things can cure those dangerous situations.

I agree also that any car, no matter how "smart", should have a very
easy means of killing the engine NO MATTER WHAT.

i


That assumes the pedal sensors are giving the correct output. Their
wiring and connectors are high on the list of potential malfunctions,
and although out-of-range sensor detection is simple, choosing a
proper response isn't. Would you want the brakes to jam on while you
were cornering on a wet mountain road, entering the freeway or barely
beating a red light?


That's not great, but what is the alternative to stopping the car when
a brake is sensed as actuated?

i

Unless you have your hand on a big rheostat control lever all
electric vehicles use remote electronic throttle control, and some
like the Segway steer and brake electronically as
well. Unfortunately I can't pursue this line of discussion further,
but I share the concern and do what I can to make them safer.



i


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Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 27, 12:33 pm, "Bill Noble" wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

...
beware - this logic would probably be implemented via software, and as one
who has in the past worked with safety critical systems, a software lockup
is one thing to suspect - from a safety design point of view, an override
that requries no software of any kind, and operates through separate wires
and switches is needed.-


The connection between the batteries, drive bridge and motors needs to
be short and as low in resistance as reasonably possible. The
components you might use to break that connection have their own
failure modes, FETs can short and mechanical relays contacts can weld
closed, mercury relays are TOO DANGEROUS FOR OUR CHILDREN. I'ved
worked on designs that had an SCR across the load to blow ("crowbar")
the main fuse, but that solution isn't perfect either. Even a big
knife switch can weld and stick. I'm told the electric motor control
panel on an old Diesel sub was a dangerous duty station.



An explosive squib firing a contained blade
through one of the conductors. First cost
probably a lot less than an airbag.

This technique was used on Pershing surface
to surface missiles to implement an emergency
power off.
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On Nov 27, 1:33*pm, Ignoramus11641 ignoramus11...@NOSPAM.
11641.invalid wrote:
On 2009-11-27, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...

That's not great, but what is the alternative to stopping the car when
a brake is sensed as actuated?

i


A demonstrably reliable mechanical or hydraulic emergency brake that
can overpower the motors long enough to stop???

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-9670835-1.html
Of course skis and skates don't have brakes either, but they aren't
dangerous.

If I had an airtight answer to this problem I'd patent it and get rich
rather than revealing it here.

jsw
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"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
"Bill Noble" writes:

before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the
car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off
required
holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there
was
no key to turn to make it go off -


4 sec.

If he'd thought of it, he could have tossed the RFID keys out the
window...

Get them far enough away and it stops.




Nope, the car keeps running. But when you turn in off, can not restart.
Learned this the hard way on wifes Venza. Dropped her off at the library
and then went to Subway a couple blocks away to get lunch to go. At least
it was only 4 blocks away from the library. Called her on the cell and said
start walking.


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Lewis Hartswick wrote:

Bill Noble wrote:
let's try this again R E A L S L O W L Y for those who weren't or
didn't want to listen - there is NO ignition switch that acts like you
say on this car,


It's (almost) impossible for me to believe that there are both
engineers and government agencies that would permit such a thing
to exist. How is it possible??????



It's part of the Democratic health care plan. Kill you off before you
need a doctor.


--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!
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Ignoramus20054 wrote:
This happened to me once (gas pedal stuck under a mat). I was driving
a Ford Taurus back then. I had about 1-2 seconds to think about it.

My solution was to turn off the engine with the key.

I almost **** my pants, as this happened in a parking lot full of
people.


Glad it worked for you, Igor. Sounds like my idea wasn't so bad, in a
logically designed vehicle.

Chris



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Ignoramus20054 wrote:

This happened to me once (gas pedal stuck under a mat). I was driving
a Ford Taurus back then. I had about 1-2 seconds to think about it.

My solution was to turn off the engine with the key.

I almost **** my pants, as this happened in a parking lot full of
people.

i


My 1991 Ranger 4x4 extended cab did the stuck pedal thing quite often. No big deal, 2.9L
of non-performance engine, seldom had me going too fast while I dealt with it. I quick
stomp cleared the problem.

Heck, every time I passed a vehicle a head, my wife at the time, turned off the air
conditioner w/o me having to ask her to do so.

We joked, next truck we are going to get the optional engine.

Now scary would be an electric car with a stuck throttle. Torque out the arse at low rpm.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
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On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:56:38 -0800, the infamous Jim Stewart
scrawled the following:

TwoGuns wrote:
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.


I've had the misfortune of calling 911 a few times
over the last 30 years. My experience is that the
dispatchers are rote trained to dispatch and nothing
else. It probably never entered the dispatcher's
mind to solve the problem if he/she had never been
trained to.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.


No quarrel there. I think in most cars, a *hard*
*sustained* braking effort would probably also
work. Both feet on the pedal and don't let up
until it grinds to a stop.


And whatever you do, don't turn off the ignition to slow the car.
Even if they turn it too far and lock the steering, it's not nearly as
dangerous as WFO.

--
Q: How many climate scientists does it take to change a light bulb?

A: None. There's a consensus that it's going to change, so they've
decided to keep us in the dark.
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On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:53:50 -0600, the infamous Ignoramus20054
scrawled the following:

This happened to me once (gas pedal stuck under a mat). I was driving
a Ford Taurus back then. I had about 1-2 seconds to think about it.

My solution was to turn off the engine with the key.

I almost **** my pants, as this happened in a parking lot full of
people.


Ditto here, in my 1970 Javelin Mark Donahue Special. My friend said I
spun the manhole cover off and sent it spinning a couple blocks down
the street, but I was busy with the WFO. By the time I hit 3rd, I
could finally (without redlining the 425 horsepower 390) reach up and
switch off the key. Once shut down, it returned to normal and never
locked again. Whew! I stopped about 50' short of the next blvd.

--
Q: How many climate scientists does it take to change a light bulb?

A: None. There's a consensus that it's going to change, so they've
decided to keep us in the dark.
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On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:17:25 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

[snip]

When one shoots to stop a moving vehicle..shoot the driver.


That'll just randomize its direction of travel. Engine blocks are what a
Barrett is for.


True indeed. But its rare that when the driver takes a couple hits to
the chest and head..his foot stays on the gas.

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton
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On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:41:12 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:53:50 -0600, the infamous Ignoramus20054
scrawled the following:

This happened to me once (gas pedal stuck under a mat). I was driving
a Ford Taurus back then. I had about 1-2 seconds to think about it.

My solution was to turn off the engine with the key.

I almost **** my pants, as this happened in a parking lot full of
people.


Ditto here, in my 1970 Javelin Mark Donahue Special. My friend said I
spun the manhole cover off and sent it spinning a couple blocks down
the street, but I was busy with the WFO. By the time I hit 3rd, I
could finally (without redlining the 425 horsepower 390) reach up and
switch off the key. Once shut down, it returned to normal and never
locked again. Whew! I stopped about 50' short of the next blvd.


Never had that happen...well..once..in a big International water truck.
Had an Allison 12speed automatic..and 8000 pounds of water works
boosters in crates on the deck. A very safe explosive..but the 200
blasting caps in the cab with me were a certain concern.

Anyways..was coming down a trail and something "happened"..and the rig
started roaring and speeding and just jumping around going faster and
faster downhill. There was a sharp 90' turn at the bottom and I hit the
jake brake, stomped on the brake pedal as hard as it would go..and Im
going faster and faster and blowing my horn hoping no one would be
driving around that 90' corner and its getting closer and closer and
then I hit the corner and ran right straight through it and wound up
about a mile away from it before the rig shut itself down. There I
was..in the middle of the Great Plains..out in the middle of the biggest
flat spot Id ever seen..but..I was safe. The little hill behind me that
Id come roaring down, had about 20 guys sitting on it, all eating lunch
and paying no attention at all.

Now...brake failures...Ive got a couple nasty stories about
those....brrrrr...

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton


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Hot off the press, another LA Times front page article on the Toyota's
runaway issue...

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...9nov29,0,52545
84.story

Erik
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On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:38:17 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
"Bill Noble" writes:

before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the
car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off
required
holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there
was
no key to turn to make it go off -


4 sec.

If he'd thought of it, he could have tossed the RFID keys out the
window...

Get them far enough away and it stops.




Nope, the car keeps running. But when you turn in off, can not restart.
Learned this the hard way on wifes Venza. Dropped her off at the library
and then went to Subway a couple blocks away to get lunch to go. At least
it was only 4 blocks away from the library. Called her on the cell and said
start walking.


Precisely - those brilliant Spit! engineers didn't want to
possibly inconvenience the driver with the car inadvertently shutting
down on the freeway just because Mom's Purse with the key-fob in it
got thrown to the back of the car by playing children.

And the driver might want the car to stay idling as they walk around
to the tailgate to get something out of the ice chest, or get out to
go close and lock the gates as they leave home - we can't all afford
electric gate operators.

BUT they didn't think through the What If's, the emergency
situations. And I did the first time I saw an advertising slick with
that whiz-bang new Start button, and no Stop button nearby... Deja Vu
to the max.

-- Bruce --
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On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 23:42:03 -0800, "Bill Noble"
wrote:



"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:26:09 -0800, "Bill Noble"


snip ----

They need a brake pressure sensor input goiing to the computer - if
the brake pedal pressure is are over 25 lbs., ignore the throttle.
They want to stop.

RULE: Conflicting control inputs should invoke a Fail Safe.

Replacing the floormats and modifying the gas pedal is a classic Red
Herring. The problem is deeper, and allowing them to Mesmerize you
with a fake fix isn't helping anything.

-- Bruce --


agree - there is both denial at Toyota, and a lack of safety concern - when
I designed safety critical systems that had software, I always assumed as
part of the design that the software would do whatever the worst thing was
(or worse things) and then made sure that there was a way to make the system
safe even when the software did that stuff. Your examples are what I would
call a "reasonableness check" - I also agree that all vehicles should have
at least 3 positive ways of removing power from the drive train - in a
manual transmission, the clutch does the trick, as does the shift lever, and
a traditional ignition switch. an automatic would require a kill switch,
fuel cutoff or other means. Since most cars have an electric fuel pump,
stopping the pump will stop the car in short order so that is a possibility.
If I had one of the affected Toyotas, or anything with a lot of software
control, I'd add a manual switch that could interrupt power to the fuel pump
or to the engine computer - either one will work, though the fuel pump will
probably be easier and less likely to cause side effects.


Just have to be careful what you cut, and how. You don't want to
damage things in the shudown or start throwing diagnostic codes, so
cutting the fuel pump power is probably safest. Or if you want a
mechanical backup, pull a knob and a cable operated valve shuts off a
ball valve on the fuel line.

On a diesel, the good old fashioned manual air damper works - pull a
lever, cable linkage drops a cork into the air cleaner snout. Very
useful on an engine that has sprung a leak and is ingesting it's own
motor oil and running away.

(Happens often enough to mention on the horizontal Detroits on mid-
engine Crown Coaches. Other than that, the darned things will live
just about forever if you keep fresh oil and grease in them. )

-- Bruce --
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On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:56:09 -0700, Lewis Hartswick
wrote:

Bill Noble wrote:
let's try this again R E A L S L O W L Y for those who weren't or
didn't want to listen - there is NO ignition switch that acts like you
say on this car,


It's (almost) impossible for me to believe that there are both
engineers and government agencies that would permit such a thing
to exist. How is it possible??????


Some (politician-type) body in charge of the DOT Oversight Committee
probably got greased with a big political contribution (or a "Friends
of Angelo" style deal on a new Lexus) and the rules in the FMVSS were
magically modified to allow it - or they just interpreeted the
existing rules do not apply to the "Start Button" system.

I still have nightmares from my wayward youth, hosteling a dozen
different cars between home and work and friends and neighbors. All
of them with radically different controls placements - Other than the
gas and brakes and sterering wheel, you could not react by reflex,
because inevitabgly you werern't grabbing in the right place.

The headlight dimmer could be in a half dozen places - the new stalk
style, on the floor high and between the gas and brake, down low left
of the brakes, up high left of the brakes, high and waaaaay over to
the left by the sidewall of the motorhome that you had to hunt for...

A dozen different shifters, including Richard's Dodge Dart with the
Pushbutton Fluid Drive, my Corvair Powerglide with the paddle for
R-N-D-L (no park pawl, no Park!) the 67 Dodge 600 chassis Executive
motorhome with a different style cluster shifter, on the tree, on the
floor, six different stick patterns with reverse in odd directions,
one truck with "Three On the Tree", another with a Granny Box 4-speed
on the Tree...

And then there's the parking brakes, operation and location... And
the wiper switch... And the headlights...

It's nice nowadays to only have to grab through two or three spots
before you find the control you want.

Let us talk about the elimination of safety features, or the complexity
of a modern vehicle that makes it possible for such things to happen,
and quit calling the dead stupid for being unable to override the system
when there was no override available.


In that case the only "stupid" event that I can think of is
driving such a vehicle. Sorry but even a short contemplation
of doing so should cause one to break out in a cold sweat.


Much of this would be solved if they made the new vehicle owner read
the Owners Manual of their new car cover to cover /for comprehension/
- and you have to pass a written mixed Multiple Choice and Essay test,
and a Practical test on basic under-hood maintenance and daily
inspection, before they let you drive it off the lot.

One of the questions on that Lexus-specific test would be "How do
you stop the engine in an emergency?
A: Open the door and drag your feet on the ground
B: Start praying Hail Mary's at the top of your lungs
C: Call the dealer on your cellphone and ask them
D: Press and hold in the Start button for at least four seconds
E: All of the above

Modern automobiles are far too complex for the driver to be totally
and blissfully clueless about their proper operation. In the immortal
words of Dean Vernon Wormer, "Fat Drunk and Stupid is no way to go
through life, son!"

Even if you will call the Auto Club 99% of the time, there will be
that time they are swamped. All drivers should be know what a bad
tire looks like and how to change a flat. Where the jack and spare
are stowed, and check monthly that the spare has air in it...

Know how to do a Circle Of Safety check every time they get in the
car to drive. That alone would eliminate the "Father backs car out of
driveway, runs over child playing in driveway" tragedies.

Do a full daily walk-around check for tail-lights and tires and
leaks, and a full light function check once a week.

Be able to check the fluids under the hood once a week, and the air
in the all tires at least once a month. Know where your Fire
Extinguisher is mounted, how to use it, and how to check the gauge.

Have a stash of 12 road flares and know how to light and safely
place one (NOT in a puddle of gas!), basic hand tools, gloves and
goggles in the trunk.

-- Bruce --
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On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:02:47 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:38:17 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
"Bill Noble" writes:

before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the
car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off
required
holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there
was
no key to turn to make it go off -

4 sec.

If he'd thought of it, he could have tossed the RFID keys out the
window...

Get them far enough away and it stops.




Nope, the car keeps running. But when you turn in off, can not restart.
Learned this the hard way on wifes Venza. Dropped her off at the library
and then went to Subway a couple blocks away to get lunch to go. At least
it was only 4 blocks away from the library. Called her on the cell and said
start walking.


Precisely - those brilliant Spit! engineers didn't want to
possibly inconvenience the driver with the car inadvertently shutting
down on the freeway just because Mom's Purse with the key-fob in it
got thrown to the back of the car by playing children.

And the driver might want the car to stay idling as they walk around
to the tailgate to get something out of the ice chest, or get out to
go close and lock the gates as they leave home - we can't all afford
electric gate operators.

BUT they didn't think through the What If's, the emergency
situations. And I did the first time I saw an advertising slick with
that whiz-bang new Start button, and no Stop button nearby... Deja Vu
to the max.

-- Bruce --


Aren't these cars push to start, hold down to stop, just like most
computers? Faced with that in an unfamiliar car, and presuming that no
big button labeled "stop" was obvious, I'm pretty sure that the logic
of its operation would be instinctive. But if it wasn't, I'd expect it
to be my job to get out the owner's manual. I suppose one could make a
case that a person could say, borrow one of these cars and drive it
away without ever knowing how to shut it off, and that such a
situation must be prevented. I'm sure there's a way to further
idiot-proof such machines, but no matter how they're changed, a better
idiot will always find a way to defeat the best of intentions.
Consider how many accidents are caused by drivers standing on the gas
pedal when they intended the brake. Expect a LOT more of that with
aging, oft times barely conscious drivers who never did learn to use
their turn signal *before* slowing down.

It's one of my pet peeves that as a society we've accepted that no one
should be counted on to accept responsibility, even for the most
trivial of decisions such as wearing sensible shoes. I fear that the
majority reaction to the case at hand is just another example of
encouraging people to believe that somebody else is always responsible
for every mishap. The irony is that thousands of people who've
complained that cars these days are too difficult and expensive to
repair, will now join the chorus demanding yet another interlock
system taking up an additional page in the owner's manual that they'll
refuse to read. Plus 5 extra pages of the shop manual, which already
costs so much that few individuals can afford it. In case there's
anyone reading who'd like to review a shop manual for a modern
vehicle, here's a link to the one for my car.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8WC2QLY0 (300 MB download) For fun, try
to guess how many pages it might be before you scroll through to the
end. Prefer a paper copy? It's about $500 IIRC. We have met the enemy,
and he is us.

Wayne


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On Nov 28, 3:28*pm, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

* One of the questions on that Lexus-specific test would be "How do
you stop the engine in an emergency?
A: Open the door and drag your feet on the ground

....
E: All of the above


F: Jesus Take the Wheel

* Modern automobiles are far too complex for the driver to be totally
and blissfully clueless about their proper operation. *


Ask people if they were taught not to brake while cornering hard.

* Do a full daily walk-around check for tail-lights and tires and
leaks, and a full light function check once a week.
-- Bruce --


If I do that in public half the time someone will come over to ask
what's the problem (that I couldn't fix)
I tell them I learned to pre-flight an aircraft and like to do it to
the car, too.

jsw
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wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:02:47 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:38:17 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
"Bill Noble" writes:

before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts -
the
car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off
required
holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there
was
no key to turn to make it go off -

4 sec.

If he'd thought of it, he could have tossed the RFID keys out the
window...

Get them far enough away and it stops.




Nope, the car keeps running. But when you turn in off, can not restart.
Learned this the hard way on wifes Venza. Dropped her off at the library
and then went to Subway a couple blocks away to get lunch to go. At
least
it was only 4 blocks away from the library. Called her on the cell and
said
start walking.


Precisely - those brilliant Spit! engineers didn't want to
possibly inconvenience the driver with the car inadvertently shutting
down on the freeway just because Mom's Purse with the key-fob in it
got thrown to the back of the car by playing children.

And the driver might want the car to stay idling as they walk around
to the tailgate to get something out of the ice chest, or get out to
go close and lock the gates as they leave home - we can't all afford
electric gate operators.

BUT they didn't think through the What If's, the emergency
situations. And I did the first time I saw an advertising slick with
that whiz-bang new Start button, and no Stop button nearby... Deja Vu
to the max.

-- Bruce --


Aren't these cars push to start, hold down to stop, just like most
computers? Faced with that in an unfamiliar car, and presuming that no
big button labeled "stop" was obvious, I'm pretty sure that the logic
of its operation would be instinctive. But if it wasn't, I'd expect it
to be my job to get out the owner's manual. I suppose one could make a
case that a person could say, borrow one of these cars and drive it
away without ever knowing how to shut it off, and that such a
situation must be prevented. I'm sure there's a way to further
idiot-proof such machines, but no matter how they're changed, a better
idiot will always find a way to defeat the best of intentions.
Consider how many accidents are caused by drivers standing on the gas
pedal when they intended the brake. Expect a LOT more of that with
aging, oft times barely conscious drivers who never did learn to use
their turn signal *before* slowing down.

It's one of my pet peeves that as a society we've accepted that no one
should be counted on to accept responsibility, even for the most
trivial of decisions such as wearing sensible shoes. I fear that the
majority reaction to the case at hand is just another example of
encouraging people to believe that somebody else is always responsible
for every mishap. The irony is that thousands of people who've
complained that cars these days are too difficult and expensive to
repair, will now join the chorus demanding yet another interlock
system taking up an additional page in the owner's manual that they'll
refuse to read. Plus 5 extra pages of the shop manual, which already
costs so much that few individuals can afford it. In case there's
anyone reading who'd like to review a shop manual for a modern
vehicle, here's a link to the one for my car.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8WC2QLY0 (300 MB download) For fun, try
to guess how many pages it might be before you scroll through to the
end. Prefer a paper copy? It's about $500 IIRC. We have met the enemy,
and he is us.

Wayne


In gear, and with the brakes applied, the engine turned off as soon as I
pushed the button on the wifes Venza today. Admitted I was not driving 100
miles an hour, was stopped in the Costco parking lot. So if the guy had hit
the start stop button while trying to brake the car, the engine would of
stopped, at least on a new Venza.


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On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 21:17:05 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:02:47 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:38:17 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
"Bill Noble" writes:

before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts -
the
car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off
required
holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there
was
no key to turn to make it go off -

4 sec.

If he'd thought of it, he could have tossed the RFID keys out the
window...

Get them far enough away and it stops.




Nope, the car keeps running. But when you turn in off, can not restart.
Learned this the hard way on wifes Venza. Dropped her off at the library
and then went to Subway a couple blocks away to get lunch to go. At
least
it was only 4 blocks away from the library. Called her on the cell and
said
start walking.

Precisely - those brilliant Spit! engineers didn't want to
possibly inconvenience the driver with the car inadvertently shutting
down on the freeway just because Mom's Purse with the key-fob in it
got thrown to the back of the car by playing children.

And the driver might want the car to stay idling as they walk around
to the tailgate to get something out of the ice chest, or get out to
go close and lock the gates as they leave home - we can't all afford
electric gate operators.

BUT they didn't think through the What If's, the emergency
situations. And I did the first time I saw an advertising slick with
that whiz-bang new Start button, and no Stop button nearby... Deja Vu
to the max.

-- Bruce --


Aren't these cars push to start, hold down to stop, just like most
computers? Faced with that in an unfamiliar car, and presuming that no
big button labeled "stop" was obvious, I'm pretty sure that the logic
of its operation would be instinctive. But if it wasn't, I'd expect it
to be my job to get out the owner's manual. I suppose one could make a
case that a person could say, borrow one of these cars and drive it
away without ever knowing how to shut it off, and that such a
situation must be prevented. I'm sure there's a way to further
idiot-proof such machines, but no matter how they're changed, a better
idiot will always find a way to defeat the best of intentions.
Consider how many accidents are caused by drivers standing on the gas
pedal when they intended the brake. Expect a LOT more of that with
aging, oft times barely conscious drivers who never did learn to use
their turn signal *before* slowing down.

It's one of my pet peeves that as a society we've accepted that no one
should be counted on to accept responsibility, even for the most
trivial of decisions such as wearing sensible shoes. I fear that the
majority reaction to the case at hand is just another example of
encouraging people to believe that somebody else is always responsible
for every mishap. The irony is that thousands of people who've
complained that cars these days are too difficult and expensive to
repair, will now join the chorus demanding yet another interlock
system taking up an additional page in the owner's manual that they'll
refuse to read. Plus 5 extra pages of the shop manual, which already
costs so much that few individuals can afford it. In case there's
anyone reading who'd like to review a shop manual for a modern
vehicle, here's a link to the one for my car.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8WC2QLY0 (300 MB download) For fun, try
to guess how many pages it might be before you scroll through to the
end. Prefer a paper copy? It's about $500 IIRC. We have met the enemy,
and he is us.

Wayne


In gear, and with the brakes applied, the engine turned off as soon as I
pushed the button on the wifes Venza today. Admitted I was not driving 100
miles an hour, was stopped in the Costco parking lot. So if the guy had hit
the start stop button while trying to brake the car, the engine would of
stopped, at least on a new Venza.


According to Toyota, they can be stopped with 150 pounds of force of
the brake pedal. It seems to me that standing on the brake would be
the first instinct of most. Of course in a panic situation there will
always be plenty who won't do the obvious, plus some more who lack the
coordination to do much more than steer.

Wayne
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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Nov 25, 7:13 pm, Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Or just switch off the engine.

Chris


In a panic it would be difficult to switch it one faint click to kill
the engine, and not two clicks and lock the steering.

jsw

On a Toyota you have to push a button to rotate the key to "lock" position.
Other cars have some mechanism top prevent a panic switch off from locking
the steering. On some you need to remove the key, some you need to have the
car in park or some have the button or lever.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.


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On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:41:21 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns
wrote:

Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

DL



How about just turning the key off? That would kill the engine and
the problem would go away. You are correct in your assessment that
everyone in the broadcast business is a clueless idiot. They can't be
bothered to research the subject.

Jim


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On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:35:26 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns
wrote:

On Nov 25, 6:13*pm, Christopher Tidy
wrote:
TwoGuns wrote:
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?


Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.


PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.


Or just switch off the engine.

Chris


Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
hit send before thinking about it Chris.

DL



Apparently you are not familiar with the fact that the OFF position is
the first detent out of on and the LOCK is the second and requires the
wheel to be in a certain position to lock. Try it sometime. Turn off
your engine with the wheel turned to one side or the other. It will
not lock until the wheel is turned to a specific spot. Therefore, the
argument that the wheel will lock if you turn off the ignition is not
valid.

Jim
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Default Toyota gas pedal

On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:14:18 -0800, Jim Chandler wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:41:21 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns
wrote:

Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

DL



How about just turning the key off? That would kill the engine and
the problem would go away. You are correct in your assessment that
everyone in the broadcast business is a clueless idiot. They can't be
bothered to research the subject.

Jim



Many vehicles these days do NOT use keys. The car in question didnt
have a key..but a "start button"..and to shut it down requires one to
press it for up to 4 seconds.

You just got here..right ?

G


Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
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Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton
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Default Toyota gas pedal



"Jim Chandler" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:41:21 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns
wrote:

Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

DL



How about just turning the key off? That would kill the engine and
the problem would go away. You are correct in your assessment that
everyone in the broadcast business is a clueless idiot. They can't be
bothered to research the subject.

Jim


and, mr Jim, perhaps you haven't been reading anything at all about this?
How else could you make the above post - Many journalists DID research the
subject, the links have been posted here, did you not see them?

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Default Toyota gas pedal

"Erik" wrote
"Bill Noble" wrote:
probably, but lawsuits don't bring back the dead. One advantage of
driving
a standard transmission car is that there is almost nothing that
can prevent
you from disconnecting the engine from the drive train - you have
both a
clutch and a shift lever (and the skill to use them).



Ahhh... but with some sticks you can be surprised by the occasional
busted clutch cable.


Been there done that it is no problem to push out of gear so one can
stop. The tricky part is knowing how to get home after the stop by
starting in first and then work your way up the gears by RPM matching
so as not to destroy the transmission. Every clutch owner should try
it out before it is absolutely needed.

Stephen B.


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"Stephen B." wrote:

"Erik" wrote
"Bill Noble" wrote:
probably, but lawsuits don't bring back the dead. One advantage of
driving
a standard transmission car is that there is almost nothing that
can prevent
you from disconnecting the engine from the drive train - you have
both a
clutch and a shift lever (and the skill to use them).



Ahhh... but with some sticks you can be surprised by the occasional
busted clutch cable.


Been there done that it is no problem to push out of gear so one can
stop. The tricky part is knowing how to get home after the stop by
starting in first and then work your way up the gears by RPM matching
so as not to destroy the transmission. Every clutch owner should try
it out before it is absolutely needed.



Try getting home when every rivet in the clutch shears off, allowing
the inner steel disk to spin inside the clutch disks.


--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!
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