On Nov 26, 1:55*pm, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:26:09 -0800, "Bill Noble"



wrote:
"TwoGuns" wrote in message
....
Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS ****ING IDIOT?

Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.

PUT THE ****ING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.

before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the
car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required
holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was
no key to turn to make it go off -

Cars long ago stopped being simple mechanical devices, and turned into
complex industrial equipment - they need to start applying the
standard industrial equipment design rules to them. *

* On the Lexus SUV incident with the Off Duty CHP Officer and family,
that was a dealer service loaner that the driver was NOT familiar
with, it had all the fancy goodies that are suspect in these failures.
* The ignition system on those is a Security Key Fob in your pocket or
purse that activates the door locks, and allows you to push a green
"Engine Start" button on the dash - no key. *You have to push and hold
the "Start" button for IIRC four seconds for it to turn the ignition
back off.

* Any industrial design person would have placed a Big Red Button on
the dashboard clearly marked "Engine Stop" - even if it has a flip-up
bump cover so you can't hit it accidentally. *And no time delay - NOW.

* The shifter is something fancy with paddles to step through the
gears on some cars, and yes there should be a clearly marked control
or button for Neutral...

* I thought that was covered by the FMVSS rules on controls
standardization in the late 1960's that got us away from a dozen
different auto-tranny shift patterns and toward the unified P-R-N-D-L
pattern, and the restrictor gate system so you can't slam straight
through to Park without stopping at Neutral first...

* And eventually led to the "Press brake pedal to shift out of
Neutral" interlocks...

And away from odd push-pull-twist controls to the Multi-Function Stalk
with the lights wiper and turn signals all on one easy to break arm.

People are saying "The steering wheel will lock if you turn off the
key!" - NOT if you only go one click back to turn off the ignition.
And on most cars it should be interlocked to NOT go to Lock till the
shifter is in Park. *(Yes, there are exceptions. Can't protect
everyone from everything.)

* Everyone claims "Pedal Misapplication" - these cars have a "Fly By
Wire" throttle with a pedal sensor telling the ECU computer what the
driver wants, and an integrated Cruise Control. *I'm betting we have a
systems failure there somewhere, and the computer goes "Full throttle?
Sure, Boss!"

There are claims of "You can stop it with the brakes, even if the
engine is at full throttle..." *BULL****. *An expert driver maybe,
immediate problem recognition, both feet mashing on the brakes for all
you are worth, and swing it straight to the shoulder. *And it's going
to feel like you just went 9 rounds with Muhammad Ali.

*But if you can't pull off the stop right this moment, and arent a big
strong guy with the brute leg strength to fight a V-8 and win, *it
won't take long to heat-soak the brakes till they fade to nothing. *

And then you have no chance at all - even if you get the engine shut
down, you still have to deal with 'no brakes' from the heat fade.

They need a brake pressure sensor input goiing to the computer - if
the brake pedal pressure is are over 25 lbs., ignore the throttle.
They want to stop.

RULE: *Conflicting control inputs should invoke a Fail Safe.

Replacing the floormats and modifying the gas pedal is a classic Red
Herring. *The problem is deeper, and allowing them to Mesmerize you
with a fake fix isn't helping anything.

-- Bruce --

As the control systems become more and more complex, ie fly by wire,
stability control, traction control, ABS, automatic braking etc. the
potential for software screw ups becomes more and more interesting. I
would imagine it would be next to impossible to design the software on
the Radar/Auto Braking used on some of the new Benz's to not cause
unintended results in some circumstances. At least in a fighter jet
you can bail out if the fly by wire quits.
How would anyone even know if a given crash was caused by an incorrect
stability control intervention? What happens if the car is
incorrectly serviced or non OEM parts are installed 10 years down the
road?

In any case, most cars have brake torque well in excess of what the
engine can produce, except for perhaps some older muscle cars with
drum brakes and big blocks, but in a panic I guess anything can
happen. My '67 Jaguar E type had a bad motor mount when I first
bought it. This allowed the throttle arms on the triple carbs. to jam
on the frame tube, (mainly only at, or close to wide open throttle).
My dad had a wild ride in reverse when he decided to take the car one
day. Not sure why, but he goosed it hard in reverse, the throttle
jammed and he wound up in the neighbors front yard. If the throttles
had not popped shut when he went over the curb at the street, the car
would have wound up in the neighbors house. Left two nice black
stripes down the driveway, broke an exhaust connection, but no damage
otherwise. He said he never got his foot on the brake until he was in
the neighbors yard. The driveway was 180 feet long..