cavelamb wrote:
Hi Steve,

I'm trying to figure out how to make a toy, and need a bit of help
this time.

This is a Tiller Trim for my sailboat.l
The idea is to lock the tiller down so I can go do something else
for a few moments without the boat heading for the nearest land mass
or other obstruction.

There are products on the market that address this, and I've used all
of them at one time or another.

But THIS is what I want.
It's a screw device that drops onto my autopilot mounts and allows the
tiller to be moved slightly by means of a threaded rod.

This is for those times that I just need my hands free for a few minutes.
I don't expect it to steer the boat for miles on end (although it actually
could on certain points of sail, since the boat behaves beautifully then).

The autopilot (Otto) needs electrical power - and being a mechanical device
moving several pounds - constantly - it uses quite a bit of battery.
It also has to have the GPS system up and running for compass information.
In all it pulls peak of 5 amps(!!).
Here is a pic of Otto in place...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~capri26/images/otto2.jpg

I have used it at times as a simple mechanical trimmer by powering up,
setting
the trim via the steering buttons, and powering back down. It _can_ be
done,but takes way too much time and attention.

My dream toy can be dropped in place and adjusted with a few twists of
the handle - done. And if it needs tweaking, just twist the handle a
bit again.
No powering up or down, no bumping buttons back and forth trying to hit the
right spot. No power needed (yea!).

So anyway, this is what I'd like to have, but plainly, I'm an engineer -
not
a machinist. Would you mind taking a few minutes and looking at the
attached
to see if there is an obvious way to have it made - correctly, or at least
sensibly?

If you don't have time, I'd certainly understand, but I could use the help!

Thanks,

Richard

It looks fairly easily buildable out of on-board resources without
access to a machine shop. There are a few small modifications I would
make though. Loose the pivot at the tiller end. The autopilot dowsn't
use or need one there, why should your rod? Much simpler to engage
without.

Make it about 4" to 8" over length and equip it with either three or
five sockets for the pin on the tiller, so it can be centered or quickly
biassed port ao starboard as required. It will vastly reduce the amount
of twiddling required to adjust it.

Use an old bottle screw that's been retired from rigging use for the
adjustment with a forked reverse threaded end. That's half the coaming
pivot done and most of the fiddly bits. The other half is a cut down
rigging link, anchor connector or random block of marine mystery metal
to fit the jaws of the bottle screw end. Use the normal pin from the
bottle screw end as the pivot.

The AP socket pin is then made from a bolt sized so the smooth shank is
a nice fit in the socket, locktited into a tapped hole drilled in the
bottom of the previous part and then the head is cut off.

The normal thread end of the bottle screw is then either cut off and
welded (if you farm it out), silver soldered or replaced with a length
of stainless all-thread long enough to give enough engagement to give a
reliable bond with whatever high strength polyurethane I have handy,
into a piece of stainless (or possibly alloy if glueing - if thick wall,
you may be able to tap it for at least partial thread engagement for
strength)

The other end has a durable hardwood plug glued in, lignum vitae if you
have a bit, or some Tufnol rod or other engineering plastic, nicely
fitted to be a light driving fit, and sufficiently out of round to offer
a decent glue line thickness on most of it's circumference and the
holes for the tiller pin carefully drilled using the one on the
autopilot for a model.

Should be reasonably light, strong, professional looking and do-able for
less than a drink out if I have scrounged enough parts from the marina
skip. I probably have enough materials on hand aboard to make one or two
though I'd have to buy some all-thread and the bolt to cut down for the
coming socket pin.

Usage is fit to coming ( or un-park from stowage there) drop the closest
socket over the tiller pin while helming with the other hand and twiddle
the bottle screw body for best course holding.

I wont be making one in a hurry though as I find a pair of lanyards and
a couple of slipped hitches quite adequate or I can always twiddle
'George's' push rod between my palms to adjust him with the power off.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:

Thanks Ian,

You have certainly come up with an idea or two to get things rolling.
A different perspective always helps...

The only minor problem with any of it is the AP mount point.
It has to articulate (3d) because it's not in plane with the tiller
attach point. the auto pilot actuator does that to - both ends.

I was stuck trying to figure out how to get the internal threaded bits
attached. I don't have a bottle screw handy for reference, but I do
have a larger turnbuckle. Hmmm...

I hadn't thought of the multiple sockets idea either.
Cool.
she will sail herself pretty steady close hauled or broad reach.
But there is probably 3 or 4 inches difference in tiller position
between he two.

I've used the "line looped a couple of times over the tiller and tied
to the rails" trick myself since forever. It works. But the set up
time, and the obstructions on both sides of the cockpit, and the line
moving fore/aft on the tiller (which changes the setup) make it less
than ideal.

reset and rethink?

Ian, you gave me the germ of an idea, but again, implementing it is the question.

I had the problem over constrained (as usual).

Mcmaster ruined my bright idea.

Thread rod couplers aren't all that long.
Now, it I could find one 6 or 8 inches long???

cavelamb wrote:
Thanks Ian,

You have certainly come up with an idea or two to get things rolling.
A different perspective always helps...

The only minor problem with any of it is the AP mount point.
It has to articulate (3d) because it's not in plane with the tiller
attach point. the auto pilot actuator does that to - both ends.
The section that fits the coaming socket should of course be made as
one piece by anyone with access to a lathe. Turn pin end to spec, and
mill head end to fit the jaws of the bottle screw, bore pin hole, Job
done. JUST KEEP IT *SHORT*, definitely no longer than the equivalent
part of the autopilot as it has a lot of leverage on that little socket.

I was stuck trying to figure out how to get the internal threaded bits
attached. I don't have a bottle screw handy for reference, but I do
have a larger turnbuckle. Hmmm...
The beauty of starting with the right type of bottle screw or turnbuckle
is you get *all* the fiddly bits including the jaws of the pivot
essentially for free. If it has been retired from your rig on grounds
of age or minor damage, it is actually free as well.


I hadn't thought of the multiple sockets idea either.
Cool.
she will sail herself pretty steady close hauled or broad reach.
But there is probably 3 or 4 inches difference in tiller position
between he two.
I dont know if I was clear enough. I don't think I mentioned that the
end plug is nearly fully inside the tube. It has two non-critical
functions - provide a bearing surface softer than the tiller pin - plug
the end of the tube to keep out crap and let you round over any sharp
edges for safety

I've used the "line looped a couple of times over the tiller and tied
to the rails" trick myself since forever. It works. But the set up
time, and the obstructions on both sides of the cockpit, and the line
moving fore/aft on the tiller (which changes the setup) make it less
than ideal.
Agreed. A single line, often of an awkward thickness relative to the
tiller is a PITA to rig quickly. Most of my tiller is over the stern
deck so my lines are fairly 'square' and not an obstruction. The key is
to have two lines permanantly attached at the sides and do all the
fiddling at the tiller where the thumb or index finger of your helming
hand is available to assist with the one handed knot tying.

Try splicing up either two bits of cordage with small eyes to drop over
the autopilot pin or spliced to a short length of light chain with links
that will drop over the pin. Paint or mark the center link for quick
reference.


You loose the fine adjustment, but gain in stowability as it can now
live in a coaming cuddy when not in use. Just clip the two ends to the
attachment point either side taking care to put the chain OVER the pin
bracket on the tiller and drop the appropriate link over the pin.

My lines thread through eyes on the side of the tiller and go to trumpet
cleats on the tiller but its a little fiddly to thread on the hoof and
not exactly quick release, so don't get used in harbour mode usually
under way, definitely not as a pair but I can tie a rolling hitch in my
sleep, blind drunk or dead tired without even thinking about it and with
a slipped end its quick release.

Tension the other way is usually provided by a length of bungee with a
hook on one end I thread through one of the line attachments and cleat
and hook on port or starboard as required when I need to relive the
weather helm for comfort on long tacks. On its own, the bungee and
native qualities of the boat will hold any sort of windward course for
as long as the conditions stay reasonably constant and off the wind, its
usually to hand so is quick to grab and set, remembering to put it on
the windward side so I can still luff or start a tack instantly.

There have been many passages where I've not bothered to get 'George'
out when I've needed to leave the helm as the bungee will sail to the
wind. Its not unusual to leave her on the rubber helmsman while putting
a plot on the chart below and then decide that a good enough job is
being done to leave it on the helm for the rest of the watch with
occasional 'suggestions' *IF* required.


reset and rethink?
Or a good rummage for bits of junk that work for the idea or alternatively
inspire a third solution.


--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:

I would use either a pneumatic cylinder or a hydraulic cylinder, gimbaled at both ends. Connected by a clevis pin fork and tang
arrangement at the tiller. I would connect a small accumulator tank in series with a simple ball valve where one end goes to one
end of the cylinder. The other connection of the cylinder connects in series at the accumulator tank so that all of these are in
series with each other in a loop. When the valve is open air or fluid simply moves freely around the system as the tiller is
moved. The closing of the valve solidly locks the tiller in that position. The key here is to use the largest internal diameter
plumbing as possible to reduce drag when the valve is open. These parts are available surplus everywhere and they are inexpensive.
Steve

"IanM" wrote in message ...
cavelamb wrote:
Hi Steve,

I'm trying to figure out how to make a toy, and need a bit of help
this time.

This is a Tiller Trim for my sailboat.l
The idea is to lock the tiller down so I can go do something else
for a few moments without the boat heading for the nearest land mass
or other obstruction.

There are products on the market that address this, and I've used all
of them at one time or another.

But THIS is what I want.
It's a screw device that drops onto my autopilot mounts and allows the
tiller to be moved slightly by means of a threaded rod.

This is for those times that I just need my hands free for a few minutes.
I don't expect it to steer the boat for miles on end (although it actually
could on certain points of sail, since the boat behaves beautifully then).

The autopilot (Otto) needs electrical power - and being a mechanical device
moving several pounds - constantly - it uses quite a bit of battery.
It also has to have the GPS system up and running for compass information.
In all it pulls peak of 5 amps(!!).
Here is a pic of Otto in place...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~capri26/images/otto2.jpg

I have used it at times as a simple mechanical trimmer by powering up, setting
the trim via the steering buttons, and powering back down. It _can_ be done,but takes way too much time and attention.

My dream toy can be dropped in place and adjusted with a few twists of the handle - done. And if it needs tweaking, just twist
the handle a bit again.
No powering up or down, no bumping buttons back and forth trying to hit the
right spot. No power needed (yea!).

So anyway, this is what I'd like to have, but plainly, I'm an engineer - not
a machinist. Would you mind taking a few minutes and looking at the attached
to see if there is an obvious way to have it made - correctly, or at least
sensibly?

If you don't have time, I'd certainly understand, but I could use the help!

Thanks,

Richard

It looks fairly easily buildable out of on-board resources without access to a machine shop. There are a few small modifications
I would make though. Loose the pivot at the tiller end. The autopilot dowsn't use or need one there, why should your rod? Much
simpler to engage without.

Make it about 4" to 8" over length and equip it with either three or five sockets for the pin on the tiller, so it can be
centered or quickly biassed port ao starboard as required. It will vastly reduce the amount of twiddling required to adjust it.

Use an old bottle screw that's been retired from rigging use for the adjustment with a forked reverse threaded end. That's half
the coaming pivot done and most of the fiddly bits. The other half is a cut down rigging link, anchor connector or random block
of marine mystery metal to fit the jaws of the bottle screw end. Use the normal pin from the bottle screw end as the pivot.

The AP socket pin is then made from a bolt sized so the smooth shank is a nice fit in the socket, locktited into a tapped hole
drilled in the bottom of the previous part and then the head is cut off.

The normal thread end of the bottle screw is then either cut off and welded (if you farm it out), silver soldered or replaced
with a length of stainless all-thread long enough to give enough engagement to give a reliable bond with whatever high strength
polyurethane I have handy, into a piece of stainless (or possibly alloy if glueing - if thick wall, you may be able to tap it
for at least partial thread engagement for strength)

The other end has a durable hardwood plug glued in, lignum vitae if you have a bit, or some Tufnol rod or other engineering
plastic, nicely fitted to be a light driving fit, and sufficiently out of round to offer a decent glue line thickness on most of
it's circumference and the holes for the tiller pin carefully drilled using the one on the autopilot for a model.

Should be reasonably light, strong, professional looking and do-able for less than a drink out if I have scrounged enough parts
from the marina skip. I probably have enough materials on hand aboard to make one or two though I'd have to buy some all-thread
and the bolt to cut down for the coming socket pin.

Usage is fit to coming ( or un-park from stowage there) drop the closest socket over the tiller pin while helming with the other
hand and twiddle the bottle screw body for best course holding.

I wont be making one in a hurry though as I find a pair of lanyards and a couple of slipped hitches quite adequate or I can
always twiddle 'George's' push rod between my palms to adjust him with the power off.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:

rethinking the mechanism...

How about this...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~capri26/#tiller

Ok, I'm not drawing threads! It's a greatbigpaininthebut.
But you get the idea?

Both end pieces (forks) have threaded rod firmly affixed.
They are joined in the center by a long coupler (my control handle).

I could probably make that center handle by screwing a couple of
nuts onto a piece of all-thread and brazing a tube between them.
However long that handle is determines total throw range.
But no reason it couldn't be a foot long if desired.

Total parts count:

Two pieces of threaded rod, maybe identical, maybe one a bit longer?
Two identical threaded rod end pieces - Lock tight or pinned?
The center barrel a.k.a. control handle.
A fork for the tiller pin.
A fork for the AP mount.
And a couple of shear pins or bolts to hold the forks on...

Like I said, I had it over constrained.
You busted that loose.
Thanks, Ian.

So what kind of boat do you have?
And where do you sail?

Richard

Steve Lusardi wrote:
I would use either a pneumatic cylinder or a hydraulic cylinder,
gimbaled at both ends. Connected by a clevis pin fork and tang
arrangement at the tiller. I would connect a small accumulator tank in
series with a simple ball valve where one end goes to one end of the
cylinder. The other connection of the cylinder connects in series at the
accumulator tank so that all of these are in series with each other in a
loop. When the valve is open air or fluid simply moves freely around the
system as the tiller is moved. The closing of the valve solidly locks
the tiller in that position. The key here is to use the largest internal
diameter plumbing as possible to reduce drag when the valve is open.
These parts are available surplus everywhere and they are inexpensive.
Steve


Now there is an interesting idea.

That would certainly lock it in place easy enough.
And could even be fairly easy to trim.

But the first time it piddles hydraulic fluid into my clean
cockpit it's going overboard!

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 03:39:34 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Steve Lusardi wrote:
I would use either a pneumatic cylinder or a hydraulic cylinder,
gimbaled at both ends. Connected by a clevis pin fork and tang
arrangement at the tiller. I would connect a small accumulator tank in
series with a simple ball valve where one end goes to one end of the
cylinder. The other connection of the cylinder connects in series at the
accumulator tank so that all of these are in series with each other in a
loop. When the valve is open air or fluid simply moves freely around the
system as the tiller is moved. The closing of the valve solidly locks
the tiller in that position. The key here is to use the largest internal
diameter plumbing as possible to reduce drag when the valve is open.
These parts are available surplus everywhere and they are inexpensive.
Steve


Now there is an interesting idea.

That would certainly lock it in place easy enough.
And could even be fairly easy to trim.

But the first time it piddles hydraulic fluid into my clean
cockpit it's going overboard!


Sure you dont like my emailed idea of a large camera tripod leg with
either lever lock or standard "turn to adjust/lock"? Tough, fast to
adjust and easy to find.

Shrug

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 03:33:42 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

rethinking the mechanism...

How about this...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~capri26/#tiller

Ok, I'm not drawing threads! It's a greatbigpaininthebut.
But you get the idea?

Both end pieces (forks) have threaded rod firmly affixed.
They are joined in the center by a long coupler (my control handle).

I could probably make that center handle by screwing a couple of
nuts onto a piece of all-thread and brazing a tube between them.
However long that handle is determines total throw range.
But no reason it couldn't be a foot long if desired.

Total parts count:

Two pieces of threaded rod, maybe identical, maybe one a bit longer?
Two identical threaded rod end pieces - Lock tight or pinned?
The center barrel a.k.a. control handle.
A fork for the tiller pin.
A fork for the AP mount.
And a couple of shear pins or bolts to hold the forks on...

Like I said, I had it over constrained.
You busted that loose.
Thanks, Ian.

So what kind of boat do you have?
And where do you sail?

Richard

I think you have two problems here. First to make a rough adjustment
of the tiller - say 2 to 4 inches. Once you are sailing approximately
on course you probably will need to trim the tiller a bit to hit the
exact course.

Probably some sort of sliding tube arrangement with an over center
clamp (think bicycle seat post quick lock) and perhaps a rigging
screw/bottle screw/turnbuckle attachment to the tiller for the fine
adjustment.

Another solution might be to build a vane steerer :-)

(Note: If you'd posted over on the cruising group a certain individual
would have told you that "Real Sailors" hand steer :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 03:33:42 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

rethinking the mechanism...

How about this...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~capri26/#tiller

Ok, I'm not drawing threads! It's a greatbigpaininthebut.
But you get the idea?

Both end pieces (forks) have threaded rod firmly affixed.
They are joined in the center by a long coupler (my control handle).

I could probably make that center handle by screwing a couple of
nuts onto a piece of all-thread and brazing a tube between them.
However long that handle is determines total throw range.
But no reason it couldn't be a foot long if desired.

Total parts count:

Two pieces of threaded rod, maybe identical, maybe one a bit longer?
Two identical threaded rod end pieces - Lock tight or pinned?
The center barrel a.k.a. control handle.
A fork for the tiller pin.
A fork for the AP mount.
And a couple of shear pins or bolts to hold the forks on...

Like I said, I had it over constrained.
You busted that loose.
Thanks, Ian.

So what kind of boat do you have?
And where do you sail?

Richard

I think you have two problems here. First to make a rough adjustment
of the tiller - say 2 to 4 inches. Once you are sailing approximately
on course you probably will need to trim the tiller a bit to hit the
exact course.

Probably some sort of sliding tube arrangement with an over center
clamp (think bicycle seat post quick lock) and perhaps a rigging
screw/bottle screw/turnbuckle attachment to the tiller for the fine
adjustment.

Another solution might be to build a vane steerer :-)

(Note: If you'd posted over on the cruising group a certain individual
would have told you that "Real Sailors" hand steer :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


Copy that on the quick adjust, Bruce,
That was Gunners point as well.
It would take a while to set the length.

So rough set via the sliding tubes and over center clamp - which allows
the thing to be "disengaged" and set in place easily.

OR? Just live with the need to preset length to preserve the mechanical
simplicity of the jack screw only set up?

I've studied several sources for self steering vanes.
Intriguing, and bound to be a God-send on a long passage.
On my boat, the spade rudder would require the "trim tab" approach.
But that's not really what I'm after at this time.

I've played around a bit with the "sheet to tiller" approach too.
But I haven't hit on the right set up yet.
The tiller forces are so light...

Lastly, the sailing groups have become so tacky (no, make that down right
hateful) that there is little point in even bothering.
And Wilbur, bless his shriveled black heart, is hardly the worst of it.

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 03:39:34 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Steve Lusardi wrote:
I would use either a pneumatic cylinder or a hydraulic cylinder,
gimbaled at both ends. Connected by a clevis pin fork and tang
arrangement at the tiller. I would connect a small accumulator tank in
series with a simple ball valve where one end goes to one end of the
cylinder. The other connection of the cylinder connects in series at the
accumulator tank so that all of these are in series with each other in a
loop. When the valve is open air or fluid simply moves freely around the
system as the tiller is moved. The closing of the valve solidly locks
the tiller in that position. The key here is to use the largest internal
diameter plumbing as possible to reduce drag when the valve is open.
These parts are available surplus everywhere and they are inexpensive.
Steve

Now there is an interesting idea.

That would certainly lock it in place easy enough.
And could even be fairly easy to trim.

But the first time it piddles hydraulic fluid into my clean
cockpit it's going overboard!


Sure you dont like my emailed idea of a large camera tripod leg with
either lever lock or standard "turn to adjust/lock"? Tough, fast to
adjust and easy to find.

Shrug

Gunner


Point taken for a couple of good reasons.

It's not the way I would want to adjust tiller trim.
But might be necessary for quick rough set and to disengage in order
to maneuver - without removing the link.

But how much does that complicate the simple screw device?


BTW, you guys were really kind for not hammering me on the opposite
threads requirement. I caught it as soon as I thought about drawing threads.

I'm blaming it on G. Killian (again)...


Richard

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:26:14 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 03:39:34 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Steve Lusardi wrote:
I would use either a pneumatic cylinder or a hydraulic cylinder,
gimbaled at both ends. Connected by a clevis pin fork and tang
arrangement at the tiller. I would connect a small accumulator tank in
series with a simple ball valve where one end goes to one end of the
cylinder. The other connection of the cylinder connects in series at the
accumulator tank so that all of these are in series with each other in a
loop. When the valve is open air or fluid simply moves freely around the
system as the tiller is moved. The closing of the valve solidly locks
the tiller in that position. The key here is to use the largest internal
diameter plumbing as possible to reduce drag when the valve is open.
These parts are available surplus everywhere and they are inexpensive.
Steve

Now there is an interesting idea.

That would certainly lock it in place easy enough.
And could even be fairly easy to trim.

But the first time it piddles hydraulic fluid into my clean
cockpit it's going overboard!


Sure you dont like my emailed idea of a large camera tripod leg with
either lever lock or standard "turn to adjust/lock"? Tough, fast to
adjust and easy to find.

Shrug

Gunner


Point taken for a couple of good reasons.

It's not the way I would want to adjust tiller trim.
But might be necessary for quick rough set and to disengage in order
to maneuver - without removing the link.

What rough set and trim?? One simply sets the critter to the tiller
angle desired and voila!

If you are a half point above or below..its very simple to reset the
critter when needed.

But how much does that complicate the simple screw device?

You do know that I too sail, right? Ive done many thousands of hours
of lightwind lake sailing..where adjusting to the wind requires a
fraction of a degree of tiller change...far far less than you will ever
likely use. Most folks who sail on Big Water are simply unable to sail
in the sort of "light wind" that us California lake sailors have to deal
with. And Id never bother with "fractional inch" adjustment of a tiller
lock.

Single hand a Thistle in 1mph wind...or in 25mph...(over that..one needs
a crew simply for ballast in a Thistle) (Thistle #1308) in stronger
winds..one can have a minute or two of angle off course and never pay
any price. And frankly..if you want to adjust the critter with a screw
in/screw out gizmo..its doable..but Id put as big a handwheel in the
middle of the threaded on both ends rod..so you can spin the ******* in
and out. You are going to need at least..least 8-12" of adjustment
range..and while thats not a big deal...screwing in your threaded ends
say...6" is going to take some time.

Hence my suggestion that something fast and easy to adjust and lock the
bar/rod/gizmo, along with strong enough to hold the tiller in a blow
makes more sense TO ME..than does something that will take -5 minutes to
set up and adjust.

BTW, you guys were really kind for not hammering me on the opposite
threads requirement. I caught it as soon as I thought about drawing threads.

G

Unless you do it all the time...thinking about lefthand threads isnt all
that common.

I'm blaming it on G. Killian (again)...

Blame it on being human.

Gunner, who still has issues with turnbuckles now and then...G The
second to the last one he made had 2 right hand threads...damnit.

Richard

"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the
means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not
making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of
it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different
countries, that the more public provisions were made for the
poor the less they provided for themselves, and of course became
poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the
more they did for themselves, and became richer." -- Benjamin
Franklin, /The Encouragement of Idleness/, 1766

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:19:38 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 03:33:42 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

rethinking the mechanism...

How about this...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~capri26/#tiller

I think you have two problems here. First to make a rough adjustment
of the tiller - say 2 to 4 inches. Once you are sailing approximately
on course you probably will need to trim the tiller a bit to hit the
exact course.

Probably some sort of sliding tube arrangement with an over center
clamp (think bicycle seat post quick lock) and perhaps a rigging
screw/bottle screw/turnbuckle attachment to the tiller for the fine
adjustment.

Another solution might be to build a vane steerer :-)

(Note: If you'd posted over on the cruising group a certain individual
would have told you that "Real Sailors" hand steer :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


Copy that on the quick adjust, Bruce,
That was Gunners point as well.
It would take a while to set the length.

So rough set via the sliding tubes and over center clamp - which allows
the thing to be "disengaged" and set in place easily.

If you have a tube in tube that slides smoothly and has a fairly long
travel you can drop it in place and then hand steer for a bit. When
things look right clamp the tube and then if you need to tweak it
twist the turnbuckle.

OR? Just live with the need to preset length to preserve the mechanical
simplicity of the jack screw only set up?

I think that you will find that different headings and different wind
strengths will require different tiller location.

I've studied several sources for self steering vanes.
Intriguing, and bound to be a God-send on a long passage.
On my boat, the spade rudder would require the "trim tab" approach.
But that's not really what I'm after at this time.

The simplest "vane steerer" would be a swinging rudder type with lines
running to the tiller.

I've played around a bit with the "sheet to tiller" approach too.
But I haven't hit on the right set up yet.
The tiller forces are so light...

On another boat I used a light line from the side of the cockpit and a
jam cleat on the tiller. It didn't work very well, but then the boat
was so skitterish that looking back over your shoulder caused the
course to change :-)

Lastly, the sailing groups have become so tacky (no, make that down right
hateful) that there is little point in even bothering.
And Wilbur, bless his shriveled black heart, is hardly the worst of it.


Too true.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:

If you have a tube in tube that slides smoothly and has a fairly long
travel you can drop it in place and then hand steer for a bit. When
things look right clamp the tube and then if you need to tweak it
twist the turnbuckle.

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


We are on the same page here, Bruce.
That's exactly what I was thinking.

Another option, easier to make, but more hassle to set would be to
drill the tube-in-tube with a bunch of pin holes - pick one close to
the right place and twist away.

But I really like the clamp idea best for the basic set.
It would be, by far, the easiest to operate and quickest to set.

Now if I can just convince Gunner that this rig needs the vernier
adjustment to make it really precise and easy to operate???

Gunner! Put that troll down an come get in the damned boat!!!



Richard

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 01:57:44 -0500, cavelamb wrote:

Ian, you gave me the germ of an idea, but again, implementing it is the
question.

I had the problem over constrained (as usual).

Mcmaster ruined my bright idea.

Thread rod couplers aren't all that long. Now, it I could find one 6 or
8 inches long???

You could use the screw and nuts from a wood clamp,
if you invert the arrangement you show in your picture,
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~capri26/#tiller. That is,
put the clamp screw in place of your tube, and put tubes in
place of the threaded rod, with the clamp nuts captured in
the ends of the tubes. The wheel suggested by Gunner could
be fastened at the center of the clamp screw.

--
jiw

James Waldby wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 01:57:44 -0500, cavelamb wrote:

Ian, you gave me the germ of an idea, but again, implementing it is the
question.

I had the problem over constrained (as usual).

Mcmaster ruined my bright idea.

Thread rod couplers aren't all that long. Now, it I could find one 6 or
8 inches long???

You could use the screw and nuts from a wood clamp,
if you invert the arrangement you show in your picture,
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~capri26/#tiller. That is,
put the clamp screw in place of your tube, and put tubes in
place of the threaded rod, with the clamp nuts captured in
the ends of the tubes. The wheel suggested by Gunner could
be fastened at the center of the clamp screw.



It would still take a left and right hand thread to make this work.

I went by the local fastener place today.
They can get L and R threaded rod (but not bolts), which is ok.
And they can get L and R nuts.

They also had several sizes of largish turnbuckles.
(All of which felt like a lawnmower full of bailing wire)

Still working on it.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 00:37:07 -0500, cavelamb wrote:
James Waldby wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 01:57:44 -0500, cavelamb wrote:
....
Mcmaster ruined my bright idea.

Thread rod couplers aren't all that long. Now, it I could find one 6
or 8 inches long???

You could use the screw and nuts from a wood clamp, if you invert the
arrangement you show in your picture,
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~capri26/#tiller. That is, put the
clamp screw in place of your tube, and put tubes in place of the
threaded rod, with the clamp nuts captured in the ends of the tubes.
The wheel suggested by Gunner could be fastened at the center of the
clamp screw.

It would still take a left and right hand thread to make this work.

I went by the local fastener place today. They can get L and R threaded
rod (but not bolts), which is ok. And they can get L and R nuts.

They also had several sizes of largish turnbuckles. (All of which felt
like a lawnmower full of bailing wire)

By "wood clamp", I meant clamps which each have 2 screws, with several
inches of left-hand thread and right-hand thread per screw. See
http://search.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?keyword=Handscrew
and http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=6987.
In the latter $4 item, the screw diameter is about .28" and one screw
has 2.6" LH and 3.2" RH thread, while the other screw has about 3" LH,
a .5" unthreaded middle section, and 3" RH.

My Jorgensen 10" clamps have 3/8" diameter screws with about
4" LH and RH per screw; my Brink and Cotton 12" clamps have
..45" diameter screws with about 6" LH and RH per screw.


--
jiw

Hey Richard,

I had a tiller extension that was adjustable. It was permanently
mounted atop the tiller just behind the hand "comfort zone" and when
not in use is lined aft and sits in a clip near the gudgeons. Similar
to:

http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10007|10169&product=4199048

If you were to find a way to clamp the "free end" of it to some point
roughly perpendicular to the tiller, like a gunwale or coaming. or
better yet to a cockpit seat, you would have what you want and a
useful gadget too. The "adjustable" part would allow clamping/holding
at any position you want within reason.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

Brian Lawson wrote:
Hey Richard,

I had a tiller extension that was adjustable. It was permanently
mounted atop the tiller just behind the hand "comfort zone" and when
not in use is lined aft and sits in a clip near the gudgeons. Similar
to:

http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10007|10169&product=4199048

If you were to find a way to clamp the "free end" of it to some point
roughly perpendicular to the tiller, like a gunwale or coaming. or
better yet to a cockpit seat, you would have what you want and a
useful gadget too. The "adjustable" part would allow clamping/holding
at any position you want within reason.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

That thing is a little pricy, but you just may be on to something...

Brian Lawson wrote:
Hey Richard,

I had a tiller extension that was adjustable. It was permanently
mounted atop the tiller just behind the hand "comfort zone" and when
not in use is lined aft and sits in a clip near the gudgeons. Similar
to:

http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10007|10169&product=4199048

If you were to find a way to clamp the "free end" of it to some point
roughly perpendicular to the tiller, like a gunwale or coaming. or
better yet to a cockpit seat, you would have what you want and a
useful gadget too. The "adjustable" part would allow clamping/holding
at any position you want within reason.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.


Guess what they also had on that site, Brian?


http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10007|10017&product=4199520


Sogeman Tiller Brake


Free yourself from the helm - Features course and fine adjustment. Installs
easily with fasteners supllied. Instant release safety feature. Constructed of
pultruded fiberglass, lexan and stainless steel. Folds out of way when not in use.

$71 US

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 01:53:03 -0400, Brian Lawson
wrote:

Hey Richard,

I had a tiller extension that was adjustable. It was permanently
mounted atop the tiller just behind the hand "comfort zone" and when
not in use is lined aft and sits in a clip near the gudgeons. Similar
to:

http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10007|10169&product=4199048

If you were to find a way to clamp the "free end" of it to some point
roughly perpendicular to the tiller, like a gunwale or coaming. or
better yet to a cockpit seat, you would have what you want and a
useful gadget too. The "adjustable" part would allow clamping/holding
at any position you want within reason.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.


Oh my god..its..its.its a tripod leg!

Whoda thunkit?

G

Gunner

"IMHO, some people here give Jeff far more attention than he deserves,
but obviously craves. The most appropriate response, and perhaps the
cruelest, IMO, is to simply killfile and ignore him. An alternative, if
you must, would be to post the same standard reply to his every post,
listing the manifold reasons why he ought to be ignored. Just my $0.02
worth."

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 02:56:35 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Brian Lawson wrote:
Hey Richard,

I had a tiller extension that was adjustable. It was permanently
mounted atop the tiller just behind the hand "comfort zone" and when
not in use is lined aft and sits in a clip near the gudgeons. Similar
to:

http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10007|10169&product=4199048

If you were to find a way to clamp the "free end" of it to some point
roughly perpendicular to the tiller, like a gunwale or coaming. or
better yet to a cockpit seat, you would have what you want and a
useful gadget too. The "adjustable" part would allow clamping/holding
at any position you want within reason.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.


Guess what they also had on that site, Brian?


http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10007|10017&product=4199520


Sogeman Tiller Brake


Free yourself from the helm - Features course and fine adjustment. Installs
easily with fasteners supllied. Instant release safety feature. Constructed of
pultruded fiberglass, lexan and stainless steel. Folds out of way when not in use.

$71 US


Oh no! Another Tripod Leg!!! AAAAAHHHHHH!!!

chuckle

Gunner

"IMHO, some people here give Jeff far more attention than he deserves,
but obviously craves. The most appropriate response, and perhaps the
cruelest, IMO, is to simply killfile and ignore him. An alternative, if
you must, would be to post the same standard reply to his every post,
listing the manifold reasons why he ought to be ignored. Just my $0.02
worth."

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 02:56:35 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Brian Lawson wrote:
Hey Richard,

I had a tiller extension that was adjustable. It was permanently
mounted atop the tiller just behind the hand "comfort zone" and when
not in use is lined aft and sits in a clip near the gudgeons. Similar
to:

http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10007|10169&product=4199048

If you were to find a way to clamp the "free end" of it to some point
roughly perpendicular to the tiller, like a gunwale or coaming. or
better yet to a cockpit seat, you would have what you want and a
useful gadget too. The "adjustable" part would allow clamping/holding
at any position you want within reason.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

Guess what they also had on that site, Brian?


http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10007|10017&product=4199520


Sogeman Tiller Brake


Free yourself from the helm - Features course and fine adjustment. Installs
easily with fasteners supllied. Instant release safety feature. Constructed of
pultruded fiberglass, lexan and stainless steel. Folds out of way when not in use.

$71 US


Oh no! Another Tripod Leg!!! AAAAAHHHHHH!!!

chuckle

Gunner


Yep! But it also has the "fine adjustment" SCREW too!

So there...

Brian Lawson wrote:
Hey Richard,

I had a tiller extension that was adjustable. It was permanently
mounted atop the tiller just behind the hand "comfort zone" and when
not in use is lined aft and sits in a clip near the gudgeons. Similar
to:

http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10007|10169&product=4199048

If you were to find a way to clamp the "free end" of it to some point
roughly perpendicular to the tiller, like a gunwale or coaming. or
better yet to a cockpit seat, you would have what you want and a
useful gadget too. The "adjustable" part would allow clamping/holding
at any position you want within reason.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.


Brian,

You win the "most helpful" prize. It's probably just empty gum wrappers,
but it's free! and a prize!

So thanks many times.

The wind was 22 gusting 30+ this weekend.
Under reefed main and a scrap of jib I was still overpowered (solo -
more enough rail weight to keep her on her feet).

AND, the rope on the tiller slipped at just the wrong moment...
But nothing hurt but my pride (everybody else out then saw me looking
foolish)

I ordered the Sogeman Tiller Brake from Pride Marine (in Canada) today.