New Attack on Free Speech

A very troubling development in Washington - a new attack on the free speech
of Americans from the Obama Administration.

Yesterday, Senator John Cornyn (R-TX) wrote to President Obama expressing
his concerns about a recent post on the White House blog written by Macon
Phillips, the White House Director of New Media.

In his post, Phillips notes "[t]here is a lot of disinformation about health
insurance reform out there" both on the web and floating around in chain
emails. Phillips states that "[s]ince we can't keep track of all of them
here at the White House, we're asking for your help. If you get an email or
see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy,
send it to ."

In a nutshell, the White House is asking you to report on your neighbors,
family, and friends who disagree with the President's policy choices on
health care. The White House is also implying that you should think twice
before sending an email disagreeing with the President, since it might end
up being forwarded to them. The White House email address says it all - let's
"flag" those who disagree with us. For what purpose are these individuals
being flagged?

In his letter, Senator Cornyn rightly seeks assurances from President Obama
that this new reporting program will be "carried out in a manner consistent
with the First Amendment and America's tradition of free speech and public
discourse." He poses several questions, including, "[h]ow do you intend to
use the names, email addresses, IP addresses, and identities of citizens who
are reported to have engaged in 'fishy' speech" and "[w]hat action do you
intend to take against citizens who have been reported for engaging in
'fishy' speech."

The First Amendment states, in part, that "Congress shall make no law . . .
abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people
peaceably to assemble." Our Founding Fathers fought and died for the right
to speak openly and freely about the government.

President Obama campaigned on the promise of a more transparent and open
government. His new White House reporting program seems aimed at stifling
debate on his health care reform plan. While he knows that he cannot "ban"
such speech, I imagine that he thinks that the fear of being reported to the
authorities will discourage many naysayers from speaking out. I am
concerned about what White House "program" will come next. Who else do we
need to "flag?" Will it be those who attend town halls and speak in
opposition to health care reform? What about those who write op-eds? Or
perhaps those who speak out against mandated abortion coverage on the radio?

RogerN wrote:
New Attack on Free Speech

A very troubling development in Washington - a new attack on the free speech
of Americans from the Obama Administration.

Yesterday, Senator John Cornyn (R-TX) wrote to President Obama expressing
his concerns about a recent post on the White House blog written by Macon
Phillips, the White House Director of New Media.

In his post, Phillips notes "[t]here is a lot of disinformation about health
insurance reform out there" both on the web and floating around in chain
emails. Phillips states that "[s]ince we can't keep track of all of them
here at the White House, we're asking for your help. If you get an email or
see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy,
send it to ."


So, when you get the nutcase rants about how Obama's plan (there is
none, there are a few bills still in the house and senate) will require
euthanising your grandma, and demanding you send it to every one who you
know, so we can stop this bad bill, that you just forward it to the
White House too. What is wrong with that, if somebody sends me
something that says do not forward to people who can think for
themselves, and want to see reform, they have already screwed up, If you
send stuff out, I have every right to send it to anyone I choose, if it
isn't truthful, maybe you shouldn't be forwarding it...

In a nutshell, the White House is asking you to report on your neighbors,
family, and friends who disagree with the President's policy choices on
health care. The White House is also implying that you should think twice
before sending an email disagreeing with the President, since it might end
up being forwarded to them. The White House email address says it all - let's
"flag" those who disagree with us. For what purpose are these individuals
being flagged?

To correct the lies they are spreading?


In his letter, Senator Cornyn rightly seeks assurances from President Obama
that this new reporting program will be "carried out in a manner consistent
with the First Amendment and America's tradition of free speech and public
discourse." He poses several questions, including, "[h]ow do you intend to
use the names, email addresses, IP addresses, and identities of citizens who
are reported to have engaged in 'fishy' speech" and "[w]hat action do you
intend to take against citizens who have been reported for engaging in
'fishy' speech."

The First Amendment states, in part, that "Congress shall make no law . . .
abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people
peaceably to assemble." Our Founding Fathers fought and died for the right
to speak openly and freely about the government.


Congress hasn't made any laws, so we are safe! If congress made a law
and said that the PEOPLE could not tell their government about lies
being spread and dis-information being engaged in, then there would be a
constitutional problem.

President Obama campaigned on the promise of a more transparent and open
government. His new White House reporting program seems aimed at stifling
debate on his health care reform plan.

No stifling, just hearing what is being said so you can correct the lies.

While he knows that he cannot "ban"
such speech, I imagine that he thinks that the fear of being reported to the
authorities will discourage many naysayers from speaking out.

Lies are not protected speech, under oath they are called perjury.

I am
concerned about what White House "program" will come next. Who else do we
need to "flag?" Will it be those who attend town halls and speak in
opposition to health care reform? What about those who write op-eds? Or
perhaps those who speak out against mandated abortion coverage on the radio?

Hey everybody, Roger got his panties in a wad over abortion again! Who
would have thought it could happen....

So Roger how did those 6 years of complete Republican control work out
for you? Have you figured out that to them you are a patsy and reliable
source of funds, and they will never kill the golden goose?

"Stuart Wheaton" wrote in message
...

snipped
RogerN wrote:
New Attack on Free Speech

A very troubling development in Washington - a new attack on the free
speech of Americans from the Obama Administration.

Yesterday, Senator John Cornyn (R-TX) wrote to President Obama expressing
his concerns about a recent post on the White House blog written by Macon
Phillips, the White House Director of New Media.

In his post, Phillips notes "[t]here is a lot of disinformation about
health insurance reform out there" both on the web and floating around in
chain emails. Phillips states that "[s]ince we can't keep track of all
of them here at the White House, we're asking for your help. If you get
an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that
seems fishy, send it to ."


So, when you get the nutcase rants about how Obama's plan (there is none,
there are a few bills still in the house and senate) will require
euthanising your grandma, and demanding you send it to every one who you
know, so we can stop this bad bill, that you just forward it to the White
House too. What is wrong with that, if somebody sends me something that
says do not forward to people who can think for themselves, and want to
see reform, they have already screwed up, If you send stuff out, I have
every right to send it to anyone I choose, if it isn't truthful, maybe you
shouldn't be forwarding it...

To correct the lies they are spreading?

Congress hasn't made any laws, so we are safe! If congress made a law and
said that the PEOPLE could not tell their government about lies being
spread and dis-information being engaged in, then there would be a
constitutional problem.

No stifling, just hearing what is being said so you can correct the lies.

Lies are not protected speech, under oath they are called perjury.

Hey everybody, Roger got his panties in a wad over abortion again! Who
would have thought it could happen....

So Roger how did those 6 years of complete Republican control work out for
you? Have you figured out that to them you are a patsy and reliable
source of funds, and they will never kill the golden goose?

Stuart, that was the poorest justification for your heroes collecting
information on dissidents I could imagine. You use the word "Lies" like you
have access to the "Truth". Your "truth" as dictated by your party holds
little confidence, even among reasonable Democrats. If this was the
Republicans collecting information about the left, you would be screaming
bloody murder. You need to stop drinking the Kool-Aid, you are blinded to
the implications. And then to attack Roger? Then justify your party's
actions with references to Republican mistakes? You look foolish

On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 02:17:26 -0400, "Buerste"
wrote:


So Roger how did those 6 years of complete Republican control work out for
you? Have you figured out that to them you are a patsy and reliable
source of funds, and they will never kill the golden goose?

Stuart, that was the poorest justification for your heroes collecting
information on dissidents I could imagine. You use the word "Lies" like you
have access to the "Truth". Your "truth" as dictated by your party holds
little confidence, even among reasonable Democrats. If this was the
Republicans collecting information about the left, you would be screaming
bloody murder. You need to stop drinking the Kool-Aid, you are blinded to
the implications. And then to attack Roger? Then justify your party's
actions with references to Republican mistakes? You look foolish

Stu..pid doesnt just look foolish..he IS a fool.

But we have known that for years. Leftwing Extremists are always stone
stupid AND foolish.

Its part of the mental illness they suffer that turns them into
Leftists.


Gunner

'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith
becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact
equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man
because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the
person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...
There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag,
the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the
English language.. and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people.'
Theodore Ro osevelt 1907

Buerste wrote:
"Stuart Wheaton" wrote in message
...

snipped
RogerN wrote:
New Attack on Free Speech

A very troubling development in Washington - a new attack on the free
speech of Americans from the Obama Administration.

Yesterday, Senator John Cornyn (R-TX) wrote to President Obama expressing
his concerns about a recent post on the White House blog written by Macon
Phillips, the White House Director of New Media.

In his post, Phillips notes "[t]here is a lot of disinformation about
health insurance reform out there" both on the web and floating around in
chain emails. Phillips states that "[s]ince we can't keep track of all
of them here at the White House, we're asking for your help. If you get
an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that
seems fishy, send it to ."

So, when you get the nutcase rants about how Obama's plan (there is none,
there are a few bills still in the house and senate) will require
euthanising your grandma, and demanding you send it to every one who you
know, so we can stop this bad bill, that you just forward it to the White
House too. What is wrong with that, if somebody sends me something that
says do not forward to people who can think for themselves, and want to
see reform, they have already screwed up, If you send stuff out, I have
every right to send it to anyone I choose, if it isn't truthful, maybe you
shouldn't be forwarding it...
To correct the lies they are spreading?

Congress hasn't made any laws, so we are safe! If congress made a law and
said that the PEOPLE could not tell their government about lies being
spread and dis-information being engaged in, then there would be a
constitutional problem.
No stifling, just hearing what is being said so you can correct the lies.

Lies are not protected speech, under oath they are called perjury.

Hey everybody, Roger got his panties in a wad over abortion again! Who
would have thought it could happen....

So Roger how did those 6 years of complete Republican control work out for
you? Have you figured out that to them you are a patsy and reliable
source of funds, and they will never kill the golden goose?

Stuart, that was the poorest justification for your heroes collecting
information on dissidents I could imagine. You use the word "Lies" like you
have access to the "Truth".

So, can you cite something in the proposed bills, the actual ones in
congress, that require a person to schedule themselves for counseling on
how to end their lives more quickly? I keep hearing it, it has been
thoroughly debunked, yet it keeps circulating, as does a whole lot of
other completely fabricated stuff about the plans in question.

I'm not thrilled with any of the 4 plans, I just want the debate to be
based on the actual facts in question, not far right whacko propaganda.

And I support the admin in gathering the propaganda that they need to
correct in order to have that fact based discussion.

You loved Bush tapping your phone and gathering your Amazon records, but
you don't want Obama reading the lies people are spreading on the open
internet? Strange double standard there.


Your "truth" as dictated by your party holds
little confidence, even among reasonable Democrats. If this was the
Republicans collecting information about the left, you would be screaming
bloody murder.

You just feel free to send copies of anything I post on the internet to
Druggie Limpdick or the Cave Troll or whoever it is that is leading the
Party of NO at this time. I stand by my public statements and have no
worries about them being read. I'm sure Druggie Limpdick could twist
them into things I never said, but fabrication is clearly his line of work.

You need to stop drinking the Kool-Aid, you are blinded to
the implications. And then to attack Roger? Then justify your party's
actions with references to Republican mistakes? You look foolish

I guess you are thrilled that 6 years of republican domination didn't
change anything with to abortion....

"Stuart Wheaton" wrote in message
...
RogerN wrote:
snip

So Roger how did those 6 years of complete Republican control work out for
you? Have you figured out that to them you are a patsy and reliable
source of funds, and they will never kill the golden goose?

My income increased every year up until the time Obama pulled ahead in the
polls and the economy went South. From the end of Clinton to the end of
Bush my income increased 83%, mostly by working overtime though. This year
I'll be making a little less but still able to meet my budget, just having
to make minimum payments until the property taxes get saved up for next
month.

RogerN

RogerN wrote:
"Stuart Wheaton" wrote in message
...
RogerN wrote:
snip
So Roger how did those 6 years of complete Republican control work out for
you? Have you figured out that to them you are a patsy and reliable
source of funds, and they will never kill the golden goose?

My income increased every year up until the time Obama pulled ahead in the
polls and the economy went South. From the end of Clinton to the end of
Bush my income increased 83%, mostly by working overtime though. This year
I'll be making a little less but still able to meet my budget, just having
to make minimum payments until the property taxes get saved up for next
month.


Right...

Personal profit while Bush / Cheney used the Constitution and Laws of
the US as toilet paper and destroyed our international reputation.
While the poor got shafted for the fat cats.

I seem to recall that Judas was plenty happy to take his bag of gold as
well.

Ah well, you are in good company I guess.

RogerN

I have been subscribing to this group for a couple of years and
reading a lot of the totally non-metalworking related discourse that
occurs here, and I find that so much of it degenerates into name-
calling and personal attacks that it has absolutely no value. This is
clearly an indication of extremely unproductive polarization of the
populace when it comes to the political directions of the country.

The ability of new media and communications methods to almost
instantly spread both real information and complete hogwash is
unparalleled, and the unfortunate result of this capability, and its
availability to everyone, is the almost instant groundswell of "public
opinion" to be mobilized in response to hogwash, even in the face of
black and white facts. I have received chain emails previously, on a
number of topics of concern to the writers, that are so loaded with
mis-statements, omissions, and outright falsehoods that they are
worthless at best, and certainly damaging to any intelligent
propagation of useful information. The news media outlets, depending
on whether they have some political leaning, are full of breathless
"this-just-in" updates on the most outrageous statements of the last
five minutes from a Democrat or Republican officeholder, or an email
from a single individual that then gets national attention because of
some ridiculous extreme opinion that supports the bias of the media
outlet.

The current debate on health care reform, both here and in the
national stream of discussion, is a prime example of this. The root
cause of the "heat without light" pandemonium seems to be the
combination of the political right's Congressional caucus and their
desire to not communicate the actual facts of the proposed legislation
in their entirety, along with the general unwillingness of the people
listening to them (on both sides) to actually go do some independent
research, perform their own due diligence, and actually think for
themselves about what the actual words say and mean. "Stirring the
pot" for what appears to be short-term political gain, rather than
using that energy and expertise to craft usable long-term solutions,
is an unfortunate but all-too-common activity in this country. The
individuals who are on the other end of the stirring stick need to get
their brains out and use them, and instruct their representatives in
Congress to represent them and work the problem, rather than playing
to the extremists on both sides of the issue. Jingoism and demagoguery
help nothing.

I am not a big fan of the various parts of the various proposals being
put forth, but something must be done, and people need to apply
critical thinking to this issue. It will involve sacrifice, period,
and no amount of whining is going to make it go away. I am an investor/
part-owner/employee of a start-up company, with 12 employees, and I
have a $10K/month bill for employee health insurance. That is patently
ridiculous. Solutions need to be found for this problem. Obfuscation
and deliberate misrepresentation on these serious issues are a huge
impediment.

On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 19:30:57 -0500, RogerN wrote:

New Attack on Free Speech

A very troubling development in Washington - a new attack on the free speech
of Americans from the Obama Administration.


It's happening:
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/...ckground_Check

Sounds a lot like Nixon and his "enemies list".

Can you say, "Heil Obama"?

Thanks,
Rich

Richard the Dreaded Libertarian wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 19:30:57 -0500, RogerN wrote:

New Attack on Free Speech

A very troubling development in Washington - a new attack on the free speech
of Americans from the Obama Administration.


It's happening:
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/...ckground_Check

Sounds a lot like Nixon and his "enemies list".

Can you say, "Heil Obama"?


Huh? Cop abuses the authority vested in him by the government, and
wastes departmental resources, and gets in trouble for it. This is the
start of a police state? This leads to 'Heil Obama'?

Seems just the opposite to me, cops are held to a high standard of
behaviour and the records of a citizen are protected from unwarranted
invasion by the police.

You Bozos will twist anything won't you.

Good thing my country is in the hands of better men than you.

On Aug 9, 2:45*pm, Stuart Wheaton wrote:
Richard the Dreaded Libertarian wrote:

On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 19:30:57 -0500, RogerN wrote:

New Attack on Free Speech

A very troubling development in Washington - a new attack on the free speech
of Americans from the Obama Administration.

You Bozos will twist anything won't you.

Good thing my country is in the hands of better men than you.


Indeed they will. When they've got nothing, they just make something
up, and make it scary enough that someone will believe them. "Death
Panel", Oh, give me a break. Notice ho Sarah Palin's Down Syndrome
baby is suddenly no longer off limits.

And how this is framed as a fight against Obama is purely sickening.
I heard the entire panel on George Stephanopoulus this morning
referring to all of this mis-information as points that the Right is
scoring against the left. My republican friends ALL want health care
reform, but their party "leaders" seem to be perfectly willing to
shoot them in the back, while they shoot their party in the foot. Wile
they pause to reload and make up some more outrageous lies.

On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 12:45:01 -0400, Stuart Wheaton
wrote:


Personal profit while Bush / Cheney used the Constitution and Laws of
the US as toilet paper and destroyed our international reputation.
While the poor got shafted for the fat cats.

Cites?

Use as much white space as necessary.


'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith
becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact
equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man
because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the
person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...
There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag,
the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the
English language.. and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people.'
Theodore Ro osevelt 1907

"matt" wrote in message
...
snip
I am an investor/
part-owner/employee of a start-up company, with 12 employees, and I
have a $10K/month bill for employee health insurance. That is patently
ridiculous. Solutions need to be found for this problem. Obfuscation
and deliberate misrepresentation on these serious issues are a huge
impediment.


Are you going to complain when it hits $20k/month? And, when your energy
costs triple? When your savings are devalued by half? Just watch...call me
crazy but remember that I told you.

rangerssuck wrote:
On Aug 10, 2:14 pm, "Buerste" wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message

...

On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 07:17:23 -0400, "Buerste"
wrote:

"rangerssuck" wrote in message

...
On Aug 9, 2:45 pm, Stuart Wheaton wrote:
Richard the Dreaded Libertarian wrote:

Gunner, Steve and Tom, in a frantic race to the bottom.

The race is over.
They've arrived.
LOL


--
John R. Carroll

On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 22:36:56 +0000 (UTC), (Edward
A. Falk) wrote:

IIRC, this was a blog post by a white house staffer who was
complaining that the lies and hysterical rumors from the right
were being generated so fast it was hard to keep track of them
all, and inviting readers to forward things they should be
aware of.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts...ubborn-Things/

Naturally, of course, the right used this blog post to
fabricate a whole new hysterical rumor.

They're not asking you to sneak around your neighbor's house
with a microphone, or read their mail. They're asking you to
forward examples of bull**** which were forwarded to you.


Hell..thats easy. In fact..I just forwarded a group of your posts to
them.

Gunner

'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith
becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact
equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man
because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the
person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...
There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag,
the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the
English language.. and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people.'
Theodore Ro osevelt 1907

On Aug 10, 8:02*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 22:36:56 +0000 (UTC), (Edward

A. Falk) wrote:
IIRC, this was a blog post by a white house staffer who was
complaining that the lies and hysterical rumors from the right
were being generated so fast it was hard to keep track of them
all, and inviting readers to forward things they should be
aware of.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts...ubborn-Things/

Naturally, of course, the right used this blog post to
fabricate a whole new hysterical rumor.

They're not asking you to sneak around your neighbor's house
with a microphone, or read their mail. *They're asking you to
forward examples of bull**** which were forwarded to you.

Hell..thats easy. *In fact..I just forwarded a group of your posts to
them.

Gunner


Once again, the man with nothing to offer. Nothing at all.

Edward A. Falk wrote:
IIRC, this was a blog post by a white house staffer who was
complaining that the lies and hysterical rumors from the right
were being generated so fast it was hard to keep track of them
all, and inviting readers to forward things they should be
aware of.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts...ubborn-Things/

Naturally, of course, the right used this blog post to
fabricate a whole new hysterical rumor.

They're not asking you to sneak around your neighbor's house
with a microphone, or read their mail. They're asking you to
forward examples of bull**** which were forwarded to you.

Yeah, and they are asking, unlike the Bush administration which would just
have had NSA begin a pattern search analysis on private citizens in secret.


--
John R. Carroll

John R. Carroll wrote:
Edward A. Falk wrote:
In article ,
John R. Carroll wrote:
Yeah, and they are asking, unlike the Bush administration which
would just have had NSA begin a pattern search analysis on private
citizens in secret.
That's the ironic part. The Bush administration implemented
unprecedented spying on innocent Americans. Illegal warrantless
wiretaps courtesy
of AT&T. Ordering librarians to report on patrons book-borrowing
records and forbidding them to even tell the patrons that they were
being spied on. A "national security letter" is a document from
the government ordering an ordinary citizen to spy on other ordinary
citizens. Google for "patriot act abuses" and get an eyeful.

No need. While it is illegal to disclose even the existence of an NSL, I
believe I have been the subject of just exactly that.

Tom Gardner complains here occasionally about someone he encountered on
Usenet that spam bombed him.

He's lucky. There really are some worked up nut jobs in the world.

What we are currently seeing from the Republican party is fear. They know
that if the economy turns smartly, health care passes and people realize the
benefit, or America moves towards an energy solution that really has the
promise of turning the stranglehold imported energy into a sort of Mexican
stand off - they will suffer the fate Republican's suffered once America
began to emerge from the carnage of the 30's.

America has been stripping away the protections wrought during the Roosevelt
years from the beginning. They didn't have real success until Reagan assumed
office and have dismantled the protections of out financial systems one
piece at a time since. "Free the Market's!".
OK, how did that work out for ya'?

We are looking dead on into the abyss and the only reason we aren't over our
heads in tar right now is a group of very good men doing their best using
tools that were created after the last failure of capitalism.

Republican's can't run on the issues or facts on that basis so everything is
a moral crusade. That is how you get people to consistently vote against
their own best interests and cheer while they do it. You couldn't explain
Sarah Palin and her kind any other way and this has been going on as an
increasingly preferred approach for nearly four decades.


I have never in my life seen a better example of revisionist "history".

You don't really believe all that horse****, do you?

Edward A. Falk wrote:
In article ,
John R. Carroll wrote:

Yeah, and they are asking, unlike the Bush administration which
would just have had NSA begin a pattern search analysis on private
citizens in secret.

That's the ironic part. The Bush administration implemented
unprecedented spying on innocent Americans. Illegal warrantless
wiretaps courtesy
of AT&T. Ordering librarians to report on patrons book-borrowing
records and forbidding them to even tell the patrons that they were
being spied on. A "national security letter" is a document from
the government ordering an ordinary citizen to spy on other ordinary
citizens. Google for "patriot act abuses" and get an eyeful.

No need. While it is illegal to disclose even the existence of an NSL, I
believe I have been the subject of just exactly that.

Tom Gardner complains here occasionally about someone he encountered on
Usenet that spam bombed him.

He's lucky. There really are some worked up nut jobs in the world.

What we are currently seeing from the Republican party is fear. They know
that if the economy turns smartly, health care passes and people realize the
benefit, or America moves towards an energy solution that really has the
promise of turning the stranglehold imported energy into a sort of Mexican
stand off - they will suffer the fate Republican's suffered once America
began to emerge from the carnage of the 30's.

America has been stripping away the protections wrought during the Roosevelt
years from the beginning. They didn't have real success until Reagan assumed
office and have dismantled the protections of out financial systems one
piece at a time since. "Free the Market's!".
OK, how did that work out for ya'?

We are looking dead on into the abyss and the only reason we aren't over our
heads in tar right now is a group of very good men doing their best using
tools that were created after the last failure of capitalism.

Republican's can't run on the issues or facts on that basis so everything is
a moral crusade. That is how you get people to consistently vote against
their own best interests and cheer while they do it. You couldn't explain
Sarah Palin and her kind any other way and this has been going on as an
increasingly preferred approach for nearly four decades.

--
John R. Carroll

"John R. Carroll" wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

The United States, like most countries, has long had a lunatic fringe who
channel in the flotsam of delusion, half-facts and conspiracy theories.

Since you are one of the chief spokescritters for that "lunatic Fringe",
your candor is surprising!


--
I used to be an anarchist but had to give it up: _far_ too many rules.

RBnDFW wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
Edward A. Falk wrote:
In article ,
John R. Carroll wrote:
Yeah, and they are asking, unlike the Bush administration which
would just have had NSA begin a pattern search analysis on private
citizens in secret.
That's the ironic part. The Bush administration implemented
unprecedented spying on innocent Americans. Illegal warrantless
wiretaps courtesy
of AT&T. Ordering librarians to report on patrons book-borrowing
records and forbidding them to even tell the patrons that they were
being spied on. A "national security letter" is a document from
the government ordering an ordinary citizen to spy on other ordinary
citizens. Google for "patriot act abuses" and get an eyeful.

No need. While it is illegal to disclose even the existence of an
NSL, I believe I have been the subject of just exactly that.

Tom Gardner complains here occasionally about someone he encountered
on Usenet that spam bombed him.

He's lucky. There really are some worked up nut jobs in the world.

What we are currently seeing from the Republican party is fear. They
know that if the economy turns smartly, health care passes and
people realize the benefit, or America moves towards an energy
solution that really has the promise of turning the stranglehold
imported energy into a sort of Mexican stand off - they will suffer
the fate Republican's suffered once America began to emerge from the
carnage of the 30's.

America has been stripping away the protections wrought during the
Roosevelt years from the beginning. They didn't have real success
until Reagan assumed office and have dismantled the protections of
out financial systems one piece at a time since. "Free the
Market's!".
OK, how did that work out for ya'?

We are looking dead on into the abyss and the only reason we aren't
over our heads in tar right now is a group of very good men doing
their best using tools that were created after the last failure of
capitalism.

Republican's can't run on the issues or facts on that basis so
everything is a moral crusade. That is how you get people to
consistently vote against their own best interests and cheer while
they do it. You couldn't explain Sarah Palin and her kind any other
way and this has been going on as an increasingly preferred approach
for nearly four decades.


I have never in my life seen a better example of revisionist
"history".

You don't really believe all that horse****, do you?

The financial services industry has been removing more than six
hundred billion dollars per year from the real economy since the turn of
the century, more or less, and you can't remove that much capital
without consequences. It is worth considering how financial services became
so"exciting" in the first place. "Exciting", by the way, is the term used
in the banking and financial services industries for clerical help that
receives a $90,000.00 bonus or a junior account executive getting a million
bucks at the end of the year. What's not to be excited about?

We started down this road not in August of 2008, but in March of 1982, and
what seemed clever at the time is now ingrained habit. The consequences of
failure have become systemic.

In 1980/81, Savings and Loans were collapsing.

The initial S&L crisis was dealt with using tax policy and revisions to
regulatory legislation. The advantage of formulating or modifying tax laws
over having the Federal government just write a check is that nobody
understands tax law. The benefits can be substantial but they are indirect.
It's easy to pass a tax cut and very hard to put money directly into
someone's hands without voters noticing. Long term debt, mortgages returning
six percent, was being supported by short term borrowings a rates well above
six percent. Mortgages didn't have to default in order to be toxic assets,
they were toxic by definition. Usury laws prevented interest rates on short
term debt from exceeding certain levels -about 18 percent - but these were
State, not Federal, laws. The Federal Reserve raised interest rates
dramatically under Paul Volker, a Reagan appointee, to get inflation under
control and the cost of money skyrocketed. Prime plus one meant 21 percent
interest in 1982. You couldn't get a mortgage at all really, and the economy
suffered with high unemployment as a result.

Inflation, however, was tamed.

Garn-St. Germaine, meant to help S&L's compete, was a key legislative
alteration in the financial landscape. S&L's entered all sorts of areas with
products they hadn't been able to offer and interest rate caps were
removed.The complete "cure" under the Reagan administration was to allow
S&L's to sell off mortgages with low returns, sustain the losses, and then
apply those losses directly against taxes paid to the Federal government
over the preceding ten years. Initially, there was neither a mechanism to
accomplish such sales or a means to dispose of the offloaded mortgages. This
defect was corrected by the creation of mortgage backed securities in the
form of bonds. The sale of these instruments to Federally chartered banks
was illegal initially and had been for 50 years but that was rectified in
short order. Fannie and Freddie promptly blessed or "Franked" the things and
we had the first example of the moral hazards involved with the GSE model.
This act, not CRA mortgages or any other horse crap, is why GSE's failed.

The S&L industry didn't just get well, they made a lot of profit on these
tax abetted transactions.S&L's were chock full of money in an environment
where demand for their product, mortgages, was low. Before anyone could say
"Boo", entire mortgage portfolios had been sold and the IRS/Treasury
Department had filled the coffers with yesterdays tax payments.. This is
where the money came to fund the explosive growth of the next bubble
andbust - High Yield Bonds.That "boom" busted out and the taxpayers bailed
out the S&L's with actual cash at that point through the FSLIC and REITC.
The cost of failure hadn't been either avoided or even shifted. It had grown
significantly, however, and the American taxpayer shouldered a burden of
$200
Bn that was originally less than twenty five.

This cycle has repeated several times since. The financial services sector
sucks one vein dry only to move on the next, and with a larger bore needle
for each subsequent vein, always with the support of bought and paid for
politicians ( on both sides of the aisle ) and with the full knowledge that
the Republican Party had adopted the pattern as one of its formal,
underlying policies. If only the markets were truly free, so went the
mantra, and beginning in 1999, the markets were so freed, or at least the
major impediments removed. The repeal of Glass-Steagal, a seminal event,
went almost unnoticed. By the end of the first Bush term, banking rules and
regulations had been rewritten to allow pensions to invest directly in hedge
funds, hedge funds to own banks, investment banks to own chartered
banks,hedge funds and so forth. This was something that had been completely
illegal - for the obvious reason. The regualtors also decided, as a policy
matter,
to slow roll their oversight and regulatory responsibilities.

Congress, in it's infinite wisdom, had passed the Graham amendment to the
Commodity Futures Trading Act with language that specifically precluded any
government regulatory agency from regulating, in anyway, or even
asking about derivatives. It was literally against the law, as an example,
for the SEC to ask AIG what was going on inside their financial products
subsidiary. Furthermore, to add a little gasoline to the fire, Henry Paulson
restated the regulatory cap on leverage as one of his first acts as
Secretary of the Treasury. What had previously been capped at $1 dollar in
cash for $10 in borrowed money was officially raised to $1 dollar in cash or
assets to $35 dollars in borrowed money and these ratios were just guidance.
Some people went as high as 60:1, intra quarter, without having a regulator
complain. The rationale was that markets would self correct if things got
out of hand.

This is the very definition of a license to steal. The question being asked
in the industry was "is this actually legal?" not "is this a good idea
and sustainable?".

The result has been predictable. America's business schools,
Harvard,Wharton, and the like, admit selectively, and they specifically
select in favor of sociopaths. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone
when the graduates, upon rising tothe pinnacle of their respective
professions, create havoc in their wake, but that indeed seems to be the
case.

I'm shocked that anyone would be shocked. Repeating a process and expecting
alternative results on a regular basisisn't a sign of a higher power or
greater intellect. It also doesn't mean anyone knows what they are doing at
all. It means they are literally insane, even if they do happen to know what
they are doing.

The single remaining bastion in 2004 was The Social Security Trust fund.That
money would have provided a fresh vein - the additional fuel to keep what is
really a giant Ponzi scheme, rolling.

Unfortunately for the Bush administration and Wall Street, Americans were
beginning to understand that they had been repeatedly played for fools.
Thank the deity of your choice that the administration of George W. Bush had
incompetence and deceit as it's hallmarks. The Bush administration's plan to
privatize SS was met with what can only be called a resounding THUD, largely
because the President of the United States wasn't trusted to tell anything
resembling the truth or believed capable of exercising good judgment.

In the event, America dodged a bullet.

At this point, American's needn't worry that the guys running the show
areWall Street insiders colluding with their peers. They are not. They are,
however, the product of the culture of bail outs that has grown upover 30
years or so. Given that the only tool they know and can use is a hammer,
every problem looks like a nail. Bernanke, Paulson, Geithner and Kashkari
run around forcefully making the case that there was nothing else to do when
the real truth is that there wasn't anything else that THEY knew how to do.
Their response has been entirely Pavlovian.

The peasant class has also responded in kind, repeating and voting a mantra
that they don't understand and is actually contrary to their own best
interests.

The failure of the domestic automobile industry was said to be due to the
costs of union labor and pension benefit overhead. What this analysis
overlooks is the $2,500.00 per vehicle disadvantage GM had which would only
have dropped to $1,000.00 or so if the labor and cost differential were
removed completely. In other words, they still wouldn't have made money on
sales of the vehicles people wanted to buy in the face of $4.50 per gallon
gasoline.I n fact, the losses would have continued at a grand per vehicle
and the costs that they had divested would just have been shifted to the
State and Federal governments. The other consequence is that the American
standard ofliving would have taken another hit. Taken to it's logical
conclusion, the last thing GM or anyone else ought to be cheering is labor
cost reductions to the point of profitability. You end up looking just like
Chinese then, and everyone knows Chinese, in China, can't afford cars at
all. This is where Ronald Reagan's firing of the striking Air Traffic
Controller's has lead us as an unintended consequence.



--
John R. Carroll