wrote in message
...
On Aug 10, 10:51 pm, rangerssuck wrote:

Yes, you will lose diamond, but define "rapidly." If I was running a
cutter sharpening service, I might be concerned. For the few dozen
tools a year that I will grind, I doubt it's much of an issue.

For a 6 inch wheel at 3450 rpm grinding dry, I would define rapidly as
less than 5 minutes to noticeably reduce the cutting speed.


Well, of course. I was really trying to suggest that it's easier to
get the angles you want by setting them up on the machine table than
it is to estimate, cut and measure. There's certainly no reason why
you couldn't do just as well by hand. Especially for those of us who
don't do this every day (or even every week).

I do not grind tool bits everyday or even every week, but I think it
is kind of like riding a bicycle. Not something that needs to be
relearned after not doing it.

Dan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In my years of grinding brazed carbide tools, I have inadvertently hit the
wheel with steel, not having relieved the tool enough. Trust me, if you
hit diamond with steel, the change is almost instantaneous. By the time
you have surfaced one tool, the wheel behaves as if it's greased, so greater
cutting pressure is required. It's really a good idea to avoid contact
with steel unless the wheel runs at a temperature well under a red heat.
Carbon burns at what, 1,100 degrees F? You'd certainly want to keep the
temperature below that (at the point of contact).

Harold

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Kevin(Bluey)" wrote in message
...
Ignoramus13611 wrote:
Has anyone tried freehand grinding of lathe bits (those with inserts
and without). The use would be a diamond wheel that cuts on the side.
I tried it with simple bits and it seems to work well, but maybe I am
missing some finer points of grinding. i

I've always ground my lathe tools by hand ,neverhad any fancy jigs or such
.
As far as brazed on carbide tips go ,use a silicon carbide wheel (Green)
to sharpen ,it doesnt matter if some steel get ground with this wheel.

Ah! But it does! Just like diamond is dissolved in steel, so, too, is
silicon. Silicon carbide wheels are NEVER intended for use on steel. The
big difference with the green wheels is they are bonded so softly that they
slough away too fast for you to recognize that they are dull. No harm to the
steel, just a waste of the wheel.

You should move to a diamond wheel, one that runs wet. Today's diamond
wheels are but a tiny fraction of the cost of diamond wheels early on. A
wheel that cost more than $600 in the 50's now costs under $100. Considering
the loss of buying power of the American dollar, they cost about 5% of what
they used to. A single diamond wheel, roughly a 220 grit, will see you
through your entire lifetime, unless you use it for commercial
applications, and will prolong the life of your cutting tools. In the end,
a diamond wheel is so cheap to use that a silicon wheel makes no sense,
especially when you consider the miserable surface finish they yield on
carbide.

Think diamond. You won't regret the decision. Be sure to run it wet.

Harold




I don't have the facilties to run a grinding wheel wet ,all my grinders
are normal workshop bench mounted affairs .
I pay only $23.00 for an 8 inch silicon carbide wheel so the cost is not
much to worry about.
I rarely use anything but HSS any way ,occasionaly carbide tips for
harder materials.

--
Kevin (Bluey)
"I'm not young enough to know everything."

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

On their website -- the actual Drill Doctor website, not the distributor
website -- they say one wheel is good for around 200 drill bits. If they're
using diamond, that fits. That's not very long for a superabrasive wheel of
any kind.

Well that ruined any thought I had of buying a DD.

Thanks,

Wes

On Aug 12, 6:14*pm, Wes wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote:
On their website -- the actual Drill Doctor website, not the distributor
website -- they say one wheel is good for around 200 drill bits. If they're
using diamond, that fits. That's not very long for a superabrasive wheel of
any kind.

Well that ruined any thought I had of buying a DD. *

Thanks,

Wes

Why? The spare cost me $20, or ten cents a sharpening. I practice
regrinding the chipped and broken ones freehand first, trying to leave
the DD very little to clean up.

jsw

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 18:14:32 -0400, Wes wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

On their website -- the actual Drill Doctor website, not the distributor
website -- they say one wheel is good for around 200 drill bits. If they're
using diamond, that fits. That's not very long for a superabrasive wheel of
any kind.

Well that ruined any thought I had of buying a DD.

Thanks,

Wes
AFAIK I get much better mileage than that, but then, if there is much
material to be removed, ie. a broken 3/8" bit, I will grind it
freehand, also, once the cutting edge is ground, I quit rather than
grind un till the whole end view is freshly ground.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

It's not that simple. The wheel loses performance drastically, and it
happens quickly. It's obvious if you know the difference. I'd sweat
it, and plenty, as I have in all of my years in the shop. Why taunt the
piranha? Would you also paint your car with a broom? Why not-----it's
painted, isn't it? :-)


I saw a rusted old 57 Caddie that the owner painted orange and black
with a roller and house paint. he drove it whenever his 67 Corvette was
in the shop for bodywork, which was about half the time. He had me
install a stereo system in it in the early '70s. Does that count?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

It's not that simple. The wheel loses performance drastically, and it
happens quickly. It's obvious if you know the difference. I'd sweat
it, and plenty, as I have in all of my years in the shop. Why taunt the
piranha? Would you also paint your car with a broom? Why not-----it's
painted, isn't it? :-)


I saw a rusted old 57 Caddie that the owner painted orange and black
with a roller and house paint. he drove it whenever his 67 Corvette was
in the shop for bodywork, which was about half the time. He had me
install a stereo system in it in the early '70s. Does that count?


Chuckle!

Now that's a discriminating car lover! Nothing quite like a nice orange and
black rolled paint job to set off a nice car! sigh Bet he painted the
bumpers with aluminum paint, too, eh? g

Harold

On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 01:24:16 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

It's not that simple. The wheel loses performance drastically, and it
happens quickly. It's obvious if you know the difference. I'd sweat
it, and plenty, as I have in all of my years in the shop. Why taunt the
piranha? Would you also paint your car with a broom? Why not-----it's
painted, isn't it? :-)


I saw a rusted old 57 Caddie that the owner painted orange and black
with a roller and house paint. he drove it whenever his 67 Corvette was
in the shop for bodywork, which was about half the time. He had me
install a stereo system in it in the early '70s. Does that count?
A hot, sunny day and rattle cans is the way to go, great, pebbled
finnish!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

It's not that simple. The wheel loses performance drastically, and it
happens quickly. It's obvious if you know the difference. I'd sweat
it, and plenty, as I have in all of my years in the shop. Why taunt the
piranha? Would you also paint your car with a broom? Why not-----it's
painted, isn't it? :-)


I saw a rusted old 57 Caddie that the owner painted orange and black
with a roller and house paint. he drove it whenever his 67 Corvette was
in the shop for bodywork, which was about half the time. He had me
install a stereo system in it in the early '70s. Does that count?


Chuckle!

Now that's a discriminating car lover! Nothing quite like a nice orange and
black rolled paint job to set off a nice car! sigh Bet he painted the
bumpers with aluminum paint, too, eh? g


No. He still had some black house paint left...

BTW, it fit right in on Halloween. ;-)


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Gerald Miller wrote:

A hot, sunny day and rattle cans is the way to go, great, pebbled
finnish!


Why go all the way to Finland for rattle cans?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

It's not that simple. The wheel loses performance
drastically, and it
happens quickly. It's obvious if you know the
difference. I'd sweat
it, and plenty, as I have in all of my years in the
shop.

Harold



Question for you Harold. What can the HSM do to recover such
a
diamond wheel other than the white stick that comes with it?
Got any
tricks to reclaim? The first one I bought has been abused,
not the second
one......;) I'd be nice to fix the first.
phil kangas

On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:35:31 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gerald Miller wrote:

A hot, sunny day and rattle cans is the way to go, great, pebbled
finnish!


Why go all the way to Finland for rattle cans?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland
Spill chucker wanted to capitalize the "f" so I selected "finish" then
pushed the ignore button.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

"Phil Kangas" wrote in message
...
snip---

Question for you Harold. What can the HSM do to recover such
a
diamond wheel other than the white stick that comes with it?
Got any
tricks to reclaim? The first one I bought has been abused,
not the second
one......;) I'd be nice to fix the first.
phil kangas


My only experience extends to the dressing stick, Phil. A lot depends on
what they've done to the wheel. If it was run dry, and is heavily loaded,
and dulled by having ground steel, but runs true, you may enjoy perfect
success using the stick. What it does is attack the matrix, releasing the
dull diamond and exposing new. The problem is, it shortens wheel life
considerably, so you can't use it routinely. That's what's wrong with
"clever" guys that think they know more than the folks that have done the
research. I've never disputed that a diamond wheel will cut steel--but I
know beyond doubt that it does so only briefly, and at considerable loss to
the wheel.

If your wheel runs out of true, and has been badly abused that way, you may
have some success mounting it such that you can rotate it slowly, with the
back running dead true, then run a grinding wheel against the diamond wheel,
barely making contact. Assuming it's a resinoid bonded wheel (the choice
for brazed carbide, by the way), you may succeed in removing enough of the
matrix to true the diamond wheel. Be careful, for some are only 1/16"
thick when new, while others are 1/8". When you break through the matrix,
what you have left is a piece of aluminum that is worth nothing more than
scrap. I would use the grinding concept ONLY if the wheel is badly out of
true.

Hope this helps, Phil.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
"Phil Kangas" wrote in message
snip---

Question for you Harold. What can the HSM do to recover
such
a
diamond wheel other than the white stick that comes with
it?
Got any
tricks to reclaim? The first one I bought has been
abused,
not the second
one......;) I'd be nice to fix the first.
phil kangas


My only experience extends to the dressing stick, Phil.
A lot depends on
what they've done to the wheel. If it was run dry, and is
heavily loaded,
and dulled by having ground steel, but runs true, you may
enjoy perfect
success using the stick. What it does is attack the
matrix, releasing the
dull diamond and exposing new. The problem is, it
shortens wheel life
considerably, so you can't use it routinely. That's
what's wrong with
"clever" guys that think they know more than the folks
that have done the
research. I've never disputed that a diamond wheel will
cut steel--but I
know beyond doubt that it does so only briefly, and at
considerable loss to
the wheel.

If your wheel runs out of true, and has been badly abused
that way, you may
have some success mounting it such that you can rotate it
slowly, with the
back running dead true, then run a grinding wheel against
the diamond wheel,
barely making contact. Assuming it's a resinoid bonded
wheel (the choice
for brazed carbide, by the way), you may succeed in
removing enough of the
matrix to true the diamond wheel. Be careful, for some
are only 1/16"
thick when new, while others are 1/8". When you break
through the matrix,
what you have left is a piece of aluminum that is worth
nothing more than
scrap. I would use the grinding concept ONLY if the wheel
is badly out of
true.

Hope this helps, Phil.

Harold

Thank you very much for your input, Harold!
phil

OK, last dumb question, I swear.

Carbide inserts do not need grinding.

Brazed carbide bits cannot be ground with diamond.

Anything else can be ground with green wheels.

Why,. then, the need for diamond wheels?

i

"Ignoramus21124" wrote in message
...
OK, last dumb question, I swear.

Carbide inserts do not need grinding.

Brazed carbide bits cannot be ground with diamond.

Anything else can be ground with green wheels.

Why,. then, the need for diamond wheels?

i

Who told you brazed carbide can't be sharpened with diamond?
Better yet, who suggested to you that green wheels are an acceptable
compromise for a diamond wheel? I'd recommend you stay far away from that
individual, for he surely doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.
Mean time, NEVER use a silicon carbide wheel for grinding steel. That is
just as stupid as using diamond for steel.

You are very best served to take advice from those of us that have actually
worked with these grinders. I have, and have extensive experience in hand
grinding lathe cutting tools. My advice will serve you perfectly well and
keep you out of trouble. I can, and do, grind toolbits that work, and work
as they are supposed to work. I am not lost on the subject of grinding
toolbits, and have many years to my credit, and have authored several
documents that are available for those that care to learn the art of
grinding toolbits.

Sharpening brazed carbide toolbits is very best accomplished with a diamond
wheel. In order to achieve the desired results, you must relieve the
supporting steel substrate. That's not a big issue, and is easily
accomplished by simply grinding a slightly greater relief angle that that
which is ground on the carbide. Using the existing carbide as a guide,
grind the steel beneath the cutting edge until the wheel is grinding on the
carbide. You'd use an aluminum oxide wheel for this task, which is too soft
to move much carbide, so it is more or less self gauging. You now have
prepared the tool to be ground on a diamond wheel, which should be run wet,
and supported by a table that can be set for the desired amount of relief.
If, in the process of sharpening the carbide, you must remove enough to make
contact with the supporting steel once again, regrind the steel with the
aluminum oxide wheel. None of this is difficult.

A good idea is to have a wet diamond on one end of a double shaft motor,
with an aluminum oxide wheel on the opposite end. That way you are properly
setup to sharpen both brazed carbide and HSS with one grinder. I have
operated in that manner since 1967 with excellent results.

Harold

"Phil Kangas" wrote in message
...
snip--

Thank you very much for your input, Harold!
phil


Welcome!

:-)

Harold

On 2009-08-18, Ignoramus21124 wrote:
OK, last dumb question, I swear.

Carbide inserts do not need grinding.

They may in their production -- but you don't want to grind ones
after they have gotten dull in use.

Brazed carbide bits cannot be ground with diamond.

They can -- if you *first* undercut the steel with standard
grinding wheels, so the diamond won't touch the steel. The brazing is
no problem to the diamond, just steel or iron. It would help to have
fixtures to prevent the angle shifting which might allow the steel to
touch the diamond wheel.

Anything else can be ground with green wheels.

Not well. You get poor edges with green wheels on carbide, and
green wheels are too soft to work well on mild steels.

Why,. then, the need for diamond wheels?

To make a good sharp edge on the carbide -- either the brazed
carbide inserts, or as a manufacturing step in the production of the
replaceable carbide inserts.

Listen to Harold -- this is his primary field.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
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