Our 2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP has developed a low speed miss. It is particularly noticeable when
the engine is cold. It seems to miss only at idling speed and is worse before the engine warms up.
The miss goes away when you load the engine under acceleration. At only 36000 miles it shouldn't
need a major tune-up. I am guessing a dirty fuel injector. Any ideas appreciated.

Bob Swinney

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:06:07 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

Our 2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP has developed a low speed miss. It is particularly noticeable when
the engine is cold. It seems to miss only at idling speed and is worse before the engine warms up.
The miss goes away when you load the engine under acceleration. At only 36000 miles it shouldn't
need a major tune-up. I am guessing a dirty fuel injector. Any ideas appreciated.

Bob Swinney
==========
Try the cheap fix first.

Add two cans of Berryman's B-12 FI cleaner to about 20 gallons of
gas and run that through the system.
http://www.berrymanproducts.com/Default.aspx?tabid=140

If this solves the problem you may want to start buying your gas
at another station.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:06:07 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

Our 2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP has developed a low speed miss. It is particularly noticeable when
the engine is cold. It seems to miss only at idling speed and is worse before the engine warms up.
The miss goes away when you load the engine under acceleration. At only 36000 miles it shouldn't
need a major tune-up. I am guessing a dirty fuel injector. Any ideas appreciated.

Bob Swinney

Silly question number one: Is it throwing a computer code and
lighting the Check Engine Light? And if so, what are the codes?

If it's enough to worry about, the OBD-II computer will notice it.

Only at idle, worse when cold... You might be right about a dirty
injector. Try some Chevron Techron additive in the tank first.

If that doesn't work, buy or borrow a fuel-rail connected injector
cleaning kit and a can of the cleaning solvent. The kit costs about
what you'd pay to have it done once, and if you are careful to buy a
decent one it will be good for many years.

-- Bruce --

Always start with the obvious. Spark plugs. Next, spray water on the plug
wires, see if it causes the miss, and check the ends for corrosion.

"Robert Swinney" wrote:

Our 2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP has developed a low speed miss. It is particularly noticeable when
the engine is cold. It seems to miss only at idling speed and is worse before the engine warms up.
The miss goes away when you load the engine under acceleration. At only 36000 miles it shouldn't
need a major tune-up. I am guessing a dirty fuel injector. Any ideas appreciated.

Bob Swinney


If it was my car, I'd say my number 1 intake runner gasket failed again. Try spraying
some brakekleen near intake / head junction and see if engine tone changes.

Wes

Stupendous Man wrote:
Always start with the obvious. Spark plugs. Next, spray water on the
plug wires, see if it causes the miss, and check the ends for corrosion.
yeah, I was going to suggest a loose plug wire....
R

Thanx to all repliers. The car is now in the hands of local, (capable ?) Pontiac, Buick, GMC
dealer's service department. Business must be way off there. Right off the bat the service advisor
tried to sell me some after-warranty "chemical" insurance when I explained the suspected injector
problem. I opted out of course.

Bob Swinney
"Wes" wrote in message ...
"Robert Swinney" wrote:

Our 2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP has developed a low speed miss. It is particularly noticeable when
the engine is cold. It seems to miss only at idling speed and is worse before the engine warms up.
The miss goes away when you load the engine under acceleration. At only 36000 miles it shouldn't
need a major tune-up. I am guessing a dirty fuel injector. Any ideas appreciated.

Bob Swinney


If it was my car, I'd say my number 1 intake runner gasket failed again. Try spraying
some brakekleen near intake / head junction and see if engine tone changes.

Wes

On Feb 25, 10:17*pm, "Robert Swinney" wrote:
Thanks for the tentative conformation, Bruce. *I have no OBD code reader so I don't know if it is
throwing a code. *The check engine light does not come on. *It did come on one time after heavy
acceleration at freeway speed to get out of a jam. *It stayed on for about 20 seconds and then went
off. *It hasn't come on since, although the low idle miss has gotten a little worse.

Bob Swinney
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in messagenews:iv2cq49oeuhlq0tuvlvfdie6svamsdfn7c@4ax .com...
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:06:07 -0600, "Robert Swinney"

wrote:
Our 2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP has developed a low speed miss. *It is particularly noticeable when
the engine is cold. *It seems to miss only at idling speed and is worse before the engine warms up.
The miss goes away when you load the engine under acceleration. *At only 36000 miles it shouldn't
need a major tune-up. *I am guessing a dirty fuel injector. *Any ideas appreciated.

Bob Swinney

* Silly question number one: *Is it throwing a computer code and
lighting the Check Engine Light? *And if so, what are the codes?

* If it's enough to worry about, the OBD-II computer will notice it.

* Only at idle, worse when cold... *You might be right about a dirty
injector. * Try some Chevron Techron additive in the tank first.

* If that doesn't work, buy or borrow a fuel-rail connected injector
cleaning kit and a can of the cleaning solvent. *The kit costs about
what you'd pay to have it done once, and if you are careful to buy a
decent one it will be good for many years.

* *-- Bruce --

What you want to do, is read out the code.
That vintage, they have temporary codes, that they save, for a while.
You can read out the code with nothing more than a jumper wire, it
will flash the codes out on the dashboard light.

For example, code 23 is two blinks, delay, three blinks, long delay,
repeat...

A problem that it notices, then goes away, it still saves, for a
while.
If the problem is solid, the light stays on. if it gets better, it
goes out, but remembbers the code(s).
I had very good luck, it told me exactly What was wrong.. Changing
that.. Fixed it.
Neat system.

Half-Nutz wrote:
On Feb 25, 10:17 pm, "Robert Swinney" wrote:
Thanks for the tentative conformation, Bruce. I have no OBD code reader so I don't know if it is
throwing a code. The check engine light does not come on. It did come on one time after heavy
acceleration at freeway speed to get out of a jam. It stayed on for about 20 seconds and then went
off. It hasn't come on since, although the low idle miss has gotten a little worse.

Bob Swinney
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in messagenews:iv2cq49oeuhlq0tuvlvfdie6svamsdfn7c@4ax .com...
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:06:07 -0600, "Robert Swinney"

wrote:
Our 2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP has developed a low speed miss. It is particularly noticeable when
the engine is cold. It seems to miss only at idling speed and is worse before the engine warms up.
The miss goes away when you load the engine under acceleration. At only 36000 miles it shouldn't
need a major tune-up. I am guessing a dirty fuel injector. Any ideas appreciated.
Bob Swinney
Silly question number one: Is it throwing a computer code and
lighting the Check Engine Light? And if so, what are the codes?

If it's enough to worry about, the OBD-II computer will notice it.

Only at idle, worse when cold... You might be right about a dirty
injector. Try some Chevron Techron additive in the tank first.

If that doesn't work, buy or borrow a fuel-rail connected injector
cleaning kit and a can of the cleaning solvent. The kit costs about
what you'd pay to have it done once, and if you are careful to buy a
decent one it will be good for many years.

-- Bruce --

What you want to do, is read out the code.
That vintage, they have temporary codes, that they save, for a while.
You can read out the code with nothing more than a jumper wire, it
will flash the codes out on the dashboard light.

For example, code 23 is two blinks, delay, three blinks, long delay,
repeat...

A problem that it notices, then goes away, it still saves, for a
while.
If the problem is solid, the light stays on. if it gets better, it
goes out, but remembbers the code(s).
I had very good luck, it told me exactly What was wrong.. Changing
that.. Fixed it.
Neat system.

if it was a 94 he could use a jumper wire. An 04 on the other hand
cannot use a jumper to pull the codes.

--
Steve W.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:17:28 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:

The check engine light does not come on. It did come on one time after heavy
acceleration at freeway speed to get out of a jam. It stayed on for about 20 seconds and then went
off. It hasn't come on since, although the low idle miss has gotten a little worse.
--------
I had the same problem on another make vehicle. Turned out to be
the exhaust gas recirculation valve. This will continue to get
worse as the valve continues to leak more and/or "carbons up" and
get stickier. Could also be an O2 sensor. Expensive to start
replacing parts though.

Try a couple of cans of fuel injector cleaner in 20 gallons of
gas first before going for the big bucks.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:17:28 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:
Half-Nutz wrote:
On Feb 25, 10:17 pm, "Robert Swinney" wrote:
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote

Silly question number one: Is it throwing a computer code and
lighting the Check Engine Light? And if so, what are the codes?

If it's enough to worry about, the OBD-II computer will notice it.

Only at idle, worse when cold... You might be right about a dirty
injector. Try some Chevron Techron additive in the tank first.

If that doesn't work, buy or borrow a fuel-rail connected injector
cleaning kit and a can of the cleaning solvent. The kit costs about
what you'd pay to have it done once, and if you are careful to buy a
decent one it will be good for many years.

What you want to do, is read out the code.
That vintage, they have temporary codes, that they save, for a while.
You can read out the code with nothing more than a jumper wire, it
will flash the codes out on the dashboard light.

For example, code 23 is two blinks, delay, three blinks, long delay,
repeat...

if it was a 94 he could use a jumper wire. An 04 on the other hand
cannot use a jumper to pull the codes.

The "short the T and E1 terminals and watch the blinkenlight" method
only works on OBD-I systems from the eighties and nineties. When they
switched to OBD-II fully computerized, that function went away.

A problem that it notices, then goes away, it still saves, for a
while. If the problem is solid, the light stays on. if it gets better,
it goes out, but remembbers the code(s).
I had very good luck, it told me exactly What was wrong.. Changing
that.. Fixed it. Neat system.

Exactly - you need a scanner handy and watch the data as the misfire
is happening, because the temporary codes go away after one or two
restarts. It may be picking up the fault and setting a temporary
code, but below the severity threshhold where the ECU sets a permanent
code and turns on the Check Engine Light.

You can get a decent OBD-II scanner for between $60 and $100 if all
you need is to keep the engine running right.

You can also spend $5,000 of you need a professional grade scanner
with every bell and whistle, including reading airbag systems, ABS
systems, transmission ECU's and other esoteric crap. But if thge
repairs are beyond your skill level you probably don't want to drop
that much coin on the fancy reader.

Lets hope for the next generation OBD-III they really follow the
mantra "On Board Diagnostics" and they use a "glass dashboard".

You plug in a keyboard and a mouse, the dashboard switches to
Diagnostic Mode and acts like a terminal. If they have a dozen CPUs
running the car, it should be trivial to program a rudimentary user
interface to access all the data going back and forth.

Would be invaluable for those of us that drive way off the beaten
path, and/or get stuck out in severe weather. Could make all the
difference between driving 20 miles out to civilization, or hiking
out. And if it's way below zero or above 120, you might not make it.

-- Bruce --

On Feb 26, 12:17*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
Half-Nutz wrote:
On Feb 25, 10:17 pm, "Robert Swinney" wrote:
Thanks for the tentative conformation, Bruce. *I have no OBD code reader so I don't know if it is
throwing a code. *The check engine light does not come on. *It did come on one time after heavy
acceleration at freeway speed to get out of a jam. *It stayed on for about 20 seconds and then went
off. *It hasn't come on since, although the low idle miss has gotten a little worse.

Bob Swinney
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in messagenews:iv2cq49oeuhlq0tuvlvfdie6svamsdfn7c@4ax .com...
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:06:07 -0600, "Robert Swinney"

wrote:
Our 2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP has developed a low speed miss. *It is particularly noticeable when
the engine is cold. *It seems to miss only at idling speed and is worse before the engine warms up.
The miss goes away when you load the engine under acceleration. *At only 36000 miles it shouldn't
need a major tune-up. *I am guessing a dirty fuel injector. *Any ideas appreciated.
Bob Swinney
* Silly question number one: *Is it throwing a computer code and
lighting the Check Engine Light? *And if so, what are the codes?

* If it's enough to worry about, the OBD-II computer will notice it.

* Only at idle, worse when cold... *You might be right about a dirty
injector. * Try some Chevron Techron additive in the tank first.

* If that doesn't work, buy or borrow a fuel-rail connected injector
cleaning kit and a can of the cleaning solvent. *The kit costs about
what you'd pay to have it done once, and if you are careful to buy a
decent one it will be good for many years.

* *-- Bruce --

What you want to do, is read out the code.
That vintage, they have temporary codes, that they save, for a while.
You can read out the code with nothing more than a jumper wire, it
will flash the codes out on the dashboard light.

For example, code 23 is two blinks, delay, three blinks, long delay,
repeat...

A problem that it notices, then goes away, it still saves, for a
while.
If the problem is solid, the light stays on. if it gets better, it
goes out, but remembbers the code(s).
I had very good luck, it told me exactly What was wrong.. Changing
that.. Fixed it.
Neat system.

if it was a 94 he could use a jumper wire. An 04 on the other hand
cannot use a jumper to pull the codes.

--
Steve W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A moot point now that's in the hands of the local reps, but most of
the local chain auto parts places will get their reader out and read
out your codes for free. Autozone definitely will do this. They
probably make a few sales of sensors that way.

Stan

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:58:21 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

Thanx to all repliers. The car is now in the hands of local, (capable ?) Pontiac, Buick, GMC
dealer's service department. Business must be way off there. Right off the bat the service advisor
tried to sell me some after-warranty "chemical" insurance when I explained the suspected injector
problem. I opted out of course.

Business IS way off, the New Car Sales side of the house at some
dealers has dropped 90% or more.

So the Service side of the house has been co-opted by the Gods Of
Profit to push many (usually of dubious utility) flushing services as
a form of prerventative maintenance. Radiator flushes, intake
cleaning, transmission flushes, final drive gears, oil system flushes,
power steering, brakes, air ducts in the Heater and Air
Conditioning...

You name a system, and they have a way to apply a vacuum cleaner to
your wallet to flush all the excess cash out of it.

Brake Bleeding $40 - Brake Flushing Service $129 for the same thing,
just done by an impressive looking machine that they wheel up to the
car and wave their hands while chanting "Ohwatta Foolheis."

Same thing for Power Streering, the most understressed system on a
car. Mine I have to actually worry about - but only because the truck
has a Hydrovac brake booster, and failure is not an appealing option.
A good way to judge the honesty level of a shop IMNSHO is to have a
frank talk with the mechanic and/or Service Writer, and tell them you
know these "Profit Center" services are all mostly worthless -
radiator backflushing is the only reasonable one because radiators
don't come apart for cleaning anymore.

If they "drank the Flushing Kool-Aid" and keep insisting they are
all totally needed and highly valuable services "And we're having a
Special on them this week!" you need to turn around and RUN.

They are putting earning an extra commission above integrity. What
else are they going to lie to you about?

-- Bruce --

The problem was a faulty ignition coil. They are sold in sets of 2. I got a new "Bank 2 Ignition
Coil Cassette". Also had them do the "BG- INJ W/TB Service" which is touted to effectively clean
fuel injectors, intake manifold ports, intake valve and combustion chamber. Supposedly they open
the fuel line and feed the engine from a cannister of whatever the cleaning agent is.

Thanks for all the hints, suggestions, etc, etc.

Bob Swinney


"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:58:21 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

Thanx to all repliers. The car is now in the hands of local, (capable ?) Pontiac, Buick, GMC
dealer's service department. Business must be way off there. Right off the bat the service
advisor
tried to sell me some after-warranty "chemical" insurance when I explained the suspected injector
problem. I opted out of course.

Business IS way off, the New Car Sales side of the house at some
dealers has dropped 90% or more.

So the Service side of the house has been co-opted by the Gods Of
Profit to push many (usually of dubious utility) flushing services as
a form of prerventative maintenance. Radiator flushes, intake
cleaning, transmission flushes, final drive gears, oil system flushes,
power steering, brakes, air ducts in the Heater and Air
Conditioning...

You name a system, and they have a way to apply a vacuum cleaner to
your wallet to flush all the excess cash out of it.

Brake Bleeding $40 - Brake Flushing Service $129 for the same thing,
just done by an impressive looking machine that they wheel up to the
car and wave their hands while chanting "Ohwatta Foolheis."

Same thing for Power Streering, the most understressed system on a
car. Mine I have to actually worry about - but only because the truck
has a Hydrovac brake booster, and failure is not an appealing option.
A good way to judge the honesty level of a shop IMNSHO is to have a
frank talk with the mechanic and/or Service Writer, and tell them you
know these "Profit Center" services are all mostly worthless -
radiator backflushing is the only reasonable one because radiators
don't come apart for cleaning anymore.

If they "drank the Flushing Kool-Aid" and keep insisting they are
all totally needed and highly valuable services "And we're having a
Special on them this week!" you need to turn around and RUN.

They are putting earning an extra commission above integrity. What
else are they going to lie to you about?

-- Bruce --

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:44:53 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

The problem was a faulty ignition coil. They are sold in sets of 2. I got a new "Bank 2 Ignition
Coil Cassette". Also had them do the "BG- INJ W/TB Service" which is touted to effectively clean
fuel injectors, intake manifold ports, intake valve and combustion chamber. Supposedly they open
the fuel line and feed the engine from a cannister of whatever the cleaning agent is.

Thanks for all the hints, suggestions, etc, etc.

Bob Swinney

Thanks for the feed-back. I always wonder how things turned out.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Business IS way off, the New Car Sales side of the house at some
dealers has dropped 90% or more.


Not just them. Walmart is where I go for an oil change in the winter. The first thing
that burns my ass is that I only use 4 quarts nad the cost is figured around 5.

They used to haved a no frills, oil and filter change but the last time I stopped in it
was one price only. The 'deluxe' package. I don't need my car vaccumed, the driver side
floor tends to be a frozen mass of ice this time of year. Pasenger side generally has
mail, tools I transport back and forth and the back is the same way as far as tools.

They ask the typical questions, do you want to have your air filter replaced if it needs
it, do you want your wipers replaced if it needs it. Must be a lot of suckers for that
one.

Then they tell me my battery is bad. I just bought one from them two months ago. If I
had replaced the starter first, I'd still be running the OEM from 2001.

The topper was that they told me my tires were down to 4/32 and need replacing. Maybe
over the wear bars but no where else.

Oh yes, they tried to sell me injector cleaner also.

I gotta get either the lathe or the bridgeport moved so I can get a car into the garage to
diy it in winter. Each blocks one bay. (metal working content)

Wes

injector cleaning is pretty much a joke to real mechanics. Add a cleaner
like Chemtool 2-4 times a year to a full tank, and the only thing that can
get into your injectors is insoluable grit that passes thru the filter.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:44:53 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

The problem was a faulty ignition coil. They are sold in sets of 2. I got a new "Bank 2 Ignition
Coil Cassette". Also had them do the "BG- INJ W/TB Service" which is touted to effectively clean
fuel injectors, intake manifold ports, intake valve and combustion chamber. Supposedly they open
the fuel line and feed the engine from a cannister of whatever the cleaning agent is.

Thanks for all the hints, suggestions, etc, etc.

Bob Swinney

The BG stuff works pretty good (and those coils ARE a common problem)

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:58:21 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

Thanx to all repliers. The car is now in the hands of local, (capable ?) Pontiac, Buick, GMC
dealer's service department. Business must be way off there. Right off the bat the service
advisor
tried to sell me some after-warranty "chemical" insurance when I explained the suspected injector
problem. I opted out of course.

Business IS way off, the New Car Sales side of the house at some
dealers has dropped 90% or more.

So the Service side of the house has been co-opted by the Gods Of
Profit to push many (usually of dubious utility) flushing services as
a form of prerventative maintenance. Radiator flushes, intake
cleaning, transmission flushes, final drive gears, oil system flushes,
power steering, brakes, air ducts in the Heater and Air
Conditioning...

You name a system, and they have a way to apply a vacuum cleaner to
your wallet to flush all the excess cash out of it.

Brake Bleeding $40 - Brake Flushing Service $129 for the same thing,
just done by an impressive looking machine that they wheel up to the
car and wave their hands while chanting "Ohwatta Foolheis."

Same thing for Power Streering, the most understressed system on a
car. Mine I have to actually worry about - but only because the truck
has a Hydrovac brake booster, and failure is not an appealing option.
A good way to judge the honesty level of a shop IMNSHO is to have a
frank talk with the mechanic and/or Service Writer, and tell them you
know these "Profit Center" services are all mostly worthless -
radiator backflushing is the only reasonable one because radiators
don't come apart for cleaning anymore.

If they "drank the Flushing Kool-Aid" and keep insisting they are
all totally needed and highly valuable services "And we're having a
Special on them this week!" you need to turn around and RUN.

They are putting earning an extra commission above integrity. What
else are they going to lie to you about?

-- Bruce --

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:36:51 -0800, "Stupendous Man"
wrote:


injector cleaning is pretty much a joke to real mechanics. Add a cleaner
like Chemtool 2-4 times a year to a full tank, and the only thing that can
get into your injectors is insoluable grit that passes thru the filter.


You a mechanic Stupendous?
Injector cleaning is no jike to this mechanic, nor to many others I
know. Your "Chemtool" is an injector cleaner too - and IF used
regularly the "real stuff" is likely not needed. Thing is, likely 99%
of drivers don't/won't use it regularly (heck, they won't even change
their oil often enough -) and when a vehicle runs poorly or fails
e-test an "injector clean" often solves the problem. I'm partial to
MotoVac myself. Cleans the lines, regulator, injectors, combustion
chambers and ports quite effectively.

If you use BG 44K it does almost as good a job, but it takes time. The
MotoVac gives results NOW that will show up on the sniffer as a
quantifiable and proveable improvement BEFORE the car goes out the
door. No guessing whether it will do the job or not.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:07:58 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:58:21 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

Thanx to all repliers. The car is now in the hands of local, (capable ?) Pontiac, Buick, GMC
dealer's service department. Business must be way off there. Right off the bat the service advisor
tried to sell me some after-warranty "chemical" insurance when I explained the suspected injector
problem. I opted out of course.

Business IS way off, the New Car Sales side of the house at some
dealers has dropped 90% or more.

So the Service side of the house has been co-opted by the Gods Of
Profit to push many (usually of dubious utility) flushing services as
a form of prerventative maintenance. Radiator flushes, intake
cleaning, transmission flushes, final drive gears, oil system flushes,
power steering, brakes, air ducts in the Heater and Air
Conditioning...

You name a system, and they have a way to apply a vacuum cleaner to
your wallet to flush all the excess cash out of it.

Brake Bleeding $40 - Brake Flushing Service $129 for the same thing,
just done by an impressive looking machine that they wheel up to the
car and wave their hands while chanting "Ohwatta Foolheis."

Same thing for Power Streering, the most understressed system on a
car. Mine I have to actually worry about - but only because the truck
has a Hydrovac brake booster, and failure is not an appealing option.
A good way to judge the honesty level of a shop IMNSHO is to have a
frank talk with the mechanic and/or Service Writer, and tell them you
know these "Profit Center" services are all mostly worthless -
radiator backflushing is the only reasonable one because radiators
don't come apart for cleaning anymore.

If they "drank the Flushing Kool-Aid" and keep insisting they are
all totally needed and highly valuable services "And we're having a
Special on them this week!" you need to turn around and RUN.

They are putting earning an extra commission above integrity. What
else are they going to lie to you about?

-- Bruce --
They should not be "wholesaled" as a profit center - but they are a
usefull tool in many cases. Would you like a $45 Power Stearing flush
to see if we can quiet down that nasty whine, or should we just go
ahead and throw a $300 rack and a $200 pump (and another 250 bucks
worth of hoses) at it right away? Oh, and by the way, the labour to
replace the pump and rack is $700.And you'll still need the fluid too.

Durn right I'll try the flush and the $8 bottle of conditioner.

Brake bleeding or brake flush? Depends how well the system will be
bled for $40. Will ALL of the fluid be changed? How about the ABS
accumulators? A proper brake flush will remove the moisture
contaminated and heat deteriorated fluid from the system in it's
entirety - and replace it with fresh clean fluid.

IF the fluid is "changed" every 48 months by a proper bleeding, the
"hot dog" flush is not required. How many vehicles EVER get a brake
bleed unless a component goes bad, REQUIRING the system to be
opened???? They should. And the car will last longer with less
problems if all the "recommmended services" are done at or before the
recommended interval.

Ever price out replacing all flex lines, all caliprs, master cyl and
ABS assembly on a 3 year old car??? I see cars go to the scrapyard
because "they just are not worth repairing" whn they need a complete
brake job (abs problems) and the steering rack is "notchy"

THAT is criminal.
Selling proper maintenance is not.
Overselling IS - but so is "purposeful neglect"

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:06:18 -0500, Wes wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Business IS way off, the New Car Sales side of the house at some
dealers has dropped 90% or more.


Not just them. Walmart is where I go for an oil change in the winter. The first thing
that burns my ass is that I only use 4 quarts nad the cost is figured around 5.

They used to haved a no frills, oil and filter change but the last time I stopped in it
was one price only. The 'deluxe' package. I don't need my car vaccumed, the driver side
floor tends to be a frozen mass of ice this time of year. Pasenger side generally has
mail, tools I transport back and forth and the back is the same way as far as tools.

They ask the typical questions, do you want to have your air filter replaced if it needs
it, do you want your wipers replaced if it needs it. Must be a lot of suckers for that
one.

Then they tell me my battery is bad. I just bought one from them two months ago. If I
had replaced the starter first, I'd still be running the OEM from 2001.

The topper was that they told me my tires were down to 4/32 and need replacing. Maybe
over the wear bars but no where else.

Oh yes, they tried to sell me injector cleaner also.

I gotta get either the lathe or the bridgeport moved so I can get a car into the garage to
diy it in winter. Each blocks one bay. (metal working content)

Wes
Go to a MECHANIC for crying out loud!!! What do you expect from a
MASS MARKETER like WALLMART????????????????????????????????????????

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:58:31 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Feb 26, 12:17Â*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
Half-Nutz wrote:
On Feb 25, 10:17 pm, "Robert Swinney" wrote:
Thanks for the tentative conformation, Bruce. Â*I have no OBD code reader so I don't know if it is
throwing a code. Â*The check engine light does not come on. Â*It did come on one time after heavy
acceleration at freeway speed to get out of a jam. Â*It stayed on for about 20 seconds and then went
off. Â*It hasn't come on since, although the low idle miss has gotten a little worse.

Bob Swinney
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in messagenews:iv2cq49oeuhlq0tuvlvfdie6svamsdfn7c@4ax .com...
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:06:07 -0600, "Robert Swinney"

wrote:
Our 2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP has developed a low speed miss. Â*It is particularly noticeable when
the engine is cold. Â*It seems to miss only at idling speed and is worse before the engine warms up.
The miss goes away when you load the engine under acceleration. Â*At only 36000 miles it shouldn't
need a major tune-up. Â*I am guessing a dirty fuel injector. Â*Any ideas appreciated.
Bob Swinney
Â* Silly question number one: Â*Is it throwing a computer code and
lighting the Check Engine Light? Â*And if so, what are the codes?

Â* If it's enough to worry about, the OBD-II computer will notice it.

Â* Only at idle, worse when cold... Â*You might be right about a dirty
injector. Â* Try some Chevron Techron additive in the tank first.

Â* If that doesn't work, buy or borrow a fuel-rail connected injector
cleaning kit and a can of the cleaning solvent. Â*The kit costs about
what you'd pay to have it done once, and if you are careful to buy a
decent one it will be good for many years.

Â* Â*-- Bruce --

What you want to do, is read out the code.
That vintage, they have temporary codes, that they save, for a while.
You can read out the code with nothing more than a jumper wire, it
will flash the codes out on the dashboard light.

For example, code 23 is two blinks, delay, three blinks, long delay,
repeat...

A problem that it notices, then goes away, it still saves, for a
while.
If the problem is solid, the light stays on. if it gets better, it
goes out, but remembbers the code(s).
I had very good luck, it told me exactly What was wrong.. Changing
that.. Fixed it.
Neat system.

if it was a 94 he could use a jumper wire. An 04 on the other hand
cannot use a jumper to pull the codes.

--
Steve W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A moot point now that's in the hands of the local reps, but most of
the local chain auto parts places will get their reader out and read
out your codes for free. Autozone definitely will do this. They
probably make a few sales of sensors that way.

Stan
Yeah, they sell a LOT of sensors that are not required. A lot of
catalytic converters too.

And one in a while they sell you what fixes the problem.
You NEED to know the code - but the code does NOT ALWAYS point
straight to the problem....

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:44:53 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

The problem was a faulty ignition coil. They are sold in sets of 2. I got a new "Bank 2 Ignition
Coil Cassette". Also had them do the "BG- INJ W/TB Service" which is touted to effectively clean
fuel injectors, intake manifold ports, intake valve and combustion chamber. Supposedly they open
the fuel line and feed the engine from a cannister of whatever the cleaning agent is.

Thanks for all the hints, suggestions, etc, etc.

For precision's sake,they aren't "sold in sets of two" - one coil
does two cylinders.

The cylinder that is in compression stroke approaching TDC fires,
and the other cylinder is on the exhaust stroke and the spark is
wasted.

-- Bruce --

You a mechanic Stupendous?

Since 75. I passed all the NAISE tests back in the mid 80s. Not that that
having a "master mechanic" paper makes one any smarter. I don't play much
with post 95 cars anymore. I prefer to stick to Euro, antiques, and exotics,
but living in the mountains I also have experience with the general mix.
I have a nice gig now restoring and building parts for vintage Lotus race
cars. Lots of nice machine tools and welders all to myself.

Chevron's Techroline fuel additive does keep systems clean, but everyone
buys the cheapest fuel. The high amounts of ethanol in California's gas
should do the same. I havent seen any data in the last ten years showing
what, if anything, collects in fuel systems other than water and actual
below-10 micron gritty dirt, unless the cars sits for years. This kind of
grit is generally insoluable and requires physical removal rather than a
magic chemical solution. Experience has taught me to never accept the words
of chemical salesmen as fact.
.. Diesel injectors used to plug up with algea, but i havent seen that in a
while either. Thier filters generally strain down to 1 micron. I have a
Bosch diesel injector cleaner pump and find that new nozzles are usualy the
best repair. By the same token new gas injectors are not a bad idea. No
chemical will repair erosion of the pintle and jet.
--
Stupendous Man,
Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty

THAT is criminal.
Selling proper maintenance is not.

There is a reason that Mercedes shops charge a lot for a major service. It
takes most of the day, and there are many parts designed to be serviced at
specific intervals. Fail to do so and it will cost you big. Do it on
schedule and the car will last. My 1963 190Dc went for 774,000 miles with no
engine work. Never had the head or oil pan off. It finally needed an
overhaul and got scrapped. My 82 300TD is at 250,000 and runs great. My 82
VW Jetta diesel is at about the same, getting tired though. Carbureted cars
didnt usually make it to 200,000 miles.

Chrysler got into big trouble when brake systems failed and there was no
interval recommended to change the fluid. For some reason American car
makers tend to recommend under-maintenance. I don't understand why BMW
thinks steering fluid (Dexron ATF) should be replaced at 30,000 miles and
Ford doesn't think you need to change it at all.

A BMW will idle bad if the dipstick isn't seated in the tube. A spark plug
with 36,000 miles on it should be bad. A rat's nest in the intake doesn't
filter air very well.
This is a machining NG, but there are some guys here who know a lot.
Answering a question online like the OP's is usually futile, unless he gives
full symptoms, maintenance history, and tells us what he has checked. Even
then it's a crapshoot, I cant hear it, so my wild guess is likely to be
wrong.

--
Stupendous Man,
Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:48:40 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:


The "short the T and E1 terminals and watch the blinkenlight" method
only works on OBD-I systems from the eighties and nineties. When they
switched to OBD-II fully computerized, that function went away.

A problem that it notices, then goes away, it still saves, for a
while. If the problem is solid, the light stays on. if it gets better,
it goes out, but remembbers the code(s).
I had very good luck, it told me exactly What was wrong.. Changing
that.. Fixed it. Neat system.

Exactly - you need a scanner handy and watch the data as the misfire
is happening, because the temporary codes go away after one or two
restarts. It may be picking up the fault and setting a temporary
code, but below the severity threshhold where the ECU sets a permanent
code and turns on the Check Engine Light.

You can get a decent OBD-II scanner for between $60 and $100 if all
you need is to keep the engine running right.


auto zone and others will loan you a reader. Generally need a credit
card and they will often bill you for the cost of the reader, then
credit it back to you when you bring it back in good condition.

Dont..dont use a debit card unless you have enough money in the bank to
cover the cost of the reader. They pullt the money immediately..it may
take several days to put the money back into youraccount.

It cost me$30 in fees to "borrow" a reader last year.
I could have bought one from Harbor Freight for not much more money.

Gunner

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

Snip stuff

You can get a decent OBD-II scanner for between $60 and $100 if all
you need is to keep the engine running right.


auto zone and others will loan you a reader. Generally need a credit
card and they will often bill you for the cost of the reader, then
credit it back to you when you bring it back in good condition.

Dont..dont use a debit card unless you have enough money in the bank to
cover the cost of the reader. They pullt the money immediately..it may
take several days to put the money back into youraccount.

It cost me$30 in fees to "borrow" a reader last year.
I could have bought one from Harbor Freight for not much more money.

Gunner


Autoparts stores in Kalifornia are no longer allowed to "loan" readers. As a result Kragen had a
blowout sale on OBD II readers for less than $25 in Jan.

Also, never never never never never never never ever use a debit card. Way to dangerous as you and
many others have found out. A credit card is the only way to go as long as you pay off the balance
every month. Oh, and did I say never use a debit card.......Paul

"catguy" wrote:

Autoparts stores in Kalifornia are no longer allowed to "loan" readers. As a result Kragen had a
blowout sale on OBD II readers for less than $25 in Jan.

Details please on why ODBII readers can't be loaned. California always amuses me.

Wes

"Wes" wrote in message ...
"catguy" wrote:

Autoparts stores in Kalifornia are no longer allowed to "loan" readers. As a result Kragen had a
blowout sale on OBD II readers for less than $25 in Jan.

Details please on why ODBII readers can't be loaned. California always amuses me.

Wes

I can't find the official info right now, here is a forum thread that discusses it....Paul

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=154282

In article ,
Wes wrote:

"catguy" wrote:

Autoparts stores in Kalifornia are no longer allowed to "loan" readers. As a
result Kragen had a
blowout sale on OBD II readers for less than $25 in Jan.

Details please on why ODBII readers can't be loaned. California always
amuses me.

Wes

In basic language, California requires that emissions repairs be
performed by persons who have met the state certifications for emissions
repairs.

The law was brought about because codes and freeze frame data were being
erased under the tool loan deal. The erased data made legitimate
attempts to repair the emissions failure much more difficult and,
motorists were having the codes and freeze frames erased and then going
in for their smog tests but because the codes had just been erased, the
OBD system monitors were not completed resulting in an automatic fail.

It's a good law actually, based upon some common sense from the
perspective of those who perform (and are scored on) these types of
repairs for a living and have to work within the BS of the California
IM program.

Details please on why ODBII readers can't be loaned. California always
amuses me.

Wes

In basic language, California requires that emissions repairs be
performed by persons who have met the state certifications for emissions
repairs.

The law was brought about because codes and freeze frame data were being
erased under the tool loan deal. The erased data made legitimate
attempts to repair the emissions failure much more difficult and,
motorists were having the codes and freeze frames erased and then going
in for their smog tests but because the codes had just been erased, the
OBD system monitors were not completed resulting in an automatic fail.

It's a good law actually, based upon some common sense from the
perspective of those who perform (and are scored on) these types of
repairs for a living and have to work within the BS of the California
IM program.

maybe it would be helpful to remember that Los Angeles has a lot of people
and a lot of cars, and a weather system that traps emissions - automotive
and other pollution was actually quite severe - it was literally killing
people - read articles about what it was like here before pollution controls
(the first being banning back yard incenerators in the late 50s) - there
were days when you literally could not see across the street due to
pollution - it was as bad as china (or mexico city, where birds would fal
dead out of the sky).

so it is very much NOT BS to try to make the place where we live livable -
even a rodent doesn't defecate in its own nest and we were doing worse.

As for the readers, there are a lot of barely educated people who think that
they can "fix" something - Oh, I cleared the code, the fault is fixed - of
course not only is it not fixed, but now the vehcile will fail test because
the cycle codes are not set - why does the tester check these cycle codes?
because idiots would "fix" their car by clearing the code (or removing the
MAF light bulb). testing showed, a few years ago, that about 5% of the cars
created 80 or 90 percent of the total automotive related pollution.

And, nothing prevents you from buyng a scanner in california, and a scanner,
at $14 from Harbor Freight, is so cheap that if you can't afford one, you
really can't afford to drive a car either.

In article ,
"Bill Noble" wrote:

Details please on why ODBII readers can't be loaned. California always
amuses me.

Wes

In basic language, California requires that emissions repairs be
performed by persons who have met the state certifications for emissions
repairs.

The law was brought about because codes and freeze frame data were being
erased under the tool loan deal. The erased data made legitimate
attempts to repair the emissions failure much more difficult and,
motorists were having the codes and freeze frames erased and then going
in for their smog tests but because the codes had just been erased, the
OBD system monitors were not completed resulting in an automatic fail.

It's a good law actually, based upon some common sense from the
perspective of those who perform (and are scored on) these types of
repairs for a living and have to work within the BS of the California
IM program.

maybe it would be helpful to remember that Los Angeles has a lot of people
and a lot of cars, and a weather system that traps emissions - automotive
and other pollution was actually quite severe -

I am aware of the situation in so.cal

it was literally killing
people - read articles about what it was like here before pollution controls
(the first being banning back yard incenerators in the late 50s) - there
were days when you literally could not see across the street due to
pollution - it was as bad as china (or mexico city, where birds would fal
dead out of the sky).

so it is very much NOT BS to try to make the place where we live livable -
even a rodent doesn't defecate in its own nest and we were doing worse.

I don't think the IM programs themselves are BS, I -do- believe the way
California administers their program is BS.
I read the accounts from others in California about the hoops they have
to jump thru as shop owners and mechanics and compare them to how my own
state administers their program and just shake my head in disgust.


As for the readers, there are a lot of barely educated people who think that
they can "fix" something - Oh, I cleared the code, the fault is fixed - of
course not only is it not fixed, but now the vehcile will fail test because
the cycle codes are not set - why does the tester check these cycle codes?
because idiots would "fix" their car by clearing the code (or removing the
MAF light bulb). testing showed, a few years ago, that about 5% of the cars
created 80 or 90 percent of the total automotive related pollution.

And, nothing prevents you from buyng a scanner in california, and a scanner,
at $14 from Harbor Freight, is so cheap that if you can't afford one, you
really can't afford to drive a car either.

The EPA and CARB have no jurisdiction (and shouldn't have) over tools
and equipment sold.

"Bill Noble" wrote:

maybe it would be helpful to remember that Los Angeles has a lot of people
and a lot of cars, and a weather system that traps emissions - automotive
and other pollution was actually quite severe - it was literally killing
people - read articles about what it was like here before pollution controls
(the first being banning back yard incenerators in the late 50s) - there
were days when you literally could not see across the street due to
pollution - it was as bad as china (or mexico city, where birds would fal
dead out of the sky).

so it is very much NOT BS to try to make the place where we live livable -
even a rodent doesn't defecate in its own nest and we were doing worse.

As for the readers, there are a lot of barely educated people who think that
they can "fix" something - Oh, I cleared the code, the fault is fixed - of
course not only is it not fixed, but now the vehcile will fail test because
the cycle codes are not set - why does the tester check these cycle codes?
because idiots would "fix" their car by clearing the code (or removing the
MAF light bulb). testing showed, a few years ago, that about 5% of the cars
created 80 or 90 percent of the total automotive related pollution.

And, nothing prevents you from buyng a scanner in california, and a scanner,
at $14 from Harbor Freight, is so cheap that if you can't afford one, you
really can't afford to drive a car either.


I thought the I/M readyness flags were only were set if a successful drive cycle was
performed? I don't live in a state that checks emissions so I've never got really
interested in this stuff other than fixing what causes the MIL light to come on.

So, thinking logically, if a code was set, and reset, the I/M flags would not indicate
pass.

14 bucks at harbor fright? I'll tell the two guys that borrow my scanner from time to
time.

Wes

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Bill Noble" wrote:



snip

As for the readers, there are a lot of barely educated people who think
that
they can "fix" something - Oh, I cleared the code, the fault is fixed - of
course not only is it not fixed, but now the vehcile will fail test
because
the cycle codes are not set - why does the tester check these cycle codes?
because idiots would "fix" their car by clearing the code (or removing the
MAF light bulb). testing showed, a few years ago, that about 5% of the
cars
created 80 or 90 percent of the total automotive related pollution.

And, nothing prevents you from buyng a scanner in california, and a
scanner,
at $14 from Harbor Freight, is so cheap that if you can't afford one, you
really can't afford to drive a car either.


I thought the I/M readyness flags were only were set if a successful drive
cycle was
performed? I don't live in a state that checks emissions so I've never
got really
interested in this stuff other than fixing what causes the MIL light to
come on.

So, thinking logically, if a code was set, and reset, the I/M flags would
not indicate
pass.

14 bucks at harbor fright? I'll tell the two guys that borrow my scanner
from time to
time.

Wes


I can only speak with authoirity with respect to a specific 1997 model year
car - on this specific car, there are 5 flags, each of which requires a
specific condition to occur to set - generally two drive cycles. some set
easily, but two are nearly impossible to set (that's the reason I bought my
$$$ scanner). Anyway, for a more normal car, two drive cycles should do
it - but the question is, "what is a drive cycle". if you are lucky,
driving around for a few days will set the flags.

The purpose of the flags is to prevent someone from clearing the codes
immediatly prior to a test to get a false pass.

Gunner Asch wrote:

auto zone and others will loan you a reader. Generally need a credit
card and they will often bill you for the cost of the reader, then
credit it back to you when you bring it back in good condition.

Dont..dont use a debit card unless you have enough money in the bank to
cover the cost of the reader. They pullt the money immediately..it may
take several days to put the money back into youraccount.

It cost me$30 in fees to "borrow" a reader last year.
I could have bought one from for not much more money.

Gunner


I bought the Harbor Freight 94169 to find that the check engine light
was on because the freon was low in the A/C.

At least I caught it on sale for $39, and it has a CDROM of 7000
trouble codes.

--
And another motherboard bites the dust!

On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 10:46:11 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

auto zone and others will loan you a reader. Generally need a credit
card and they will often bill you for the cost of the reader, then
credit it back to you when you bring it back in good condition.

Dont..dont use a debit card unless you have enough money in the bank to
cover the cost of the reader. They pullt the money immediately..it may
take several days to put the money back into youraccount.

It cost me$30 in fees to "borrow" a reader last year.
I could have bought one from for not much more money.

Gunner


I bought the Harbor Freight 94169 to find that the check engine light
was on because the freon was low in the A/C.

At least I caught it on sale for $39, and it has a CDROM of 7000
trouble codes.


But it worked ok? Thanks! Ill check it out!

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 10:46:11 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

auto zone and others will loan you a reader. Generally need a credit
card and they will often bill you for the cost of the reader, then
credit it back to you when you bring it back in good condition.

Dont..dont use a debit card unless you have enough money in the bank to
cover the cost of the reader. They pullt the money immediately..it may
take several days to put the money back into youraccount.

It cost me$30 in fees to "borrow" a reader last year.
I could have bought one from for not much more money.

Gunner


I bought the Harbor Freight 94169 to find that the check engine light
was on because the freon was low in the A/C.

At least I caught it on sale for $39, and it has a CDROM of 7000
trouble codes.

But it worked ok? Thanks! I'll check it out!


I missed your reply. I bought it the day before I got sick in
December and didn't even open the package. I figured out the
refrigerant was low, because the error cleared itself after a couple
more starts. I turned the A/C on because I was running a high fever and
the light came back on. I still have to recharge the A/C, and will try
it then.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!