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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Removing galled alumunm
I ran my trusty Kohler 301 12 hp a bit low on oil, trashed the con rod.
(My bad)It looks like the crank is ok but it has a decent buildup of galled aluminum on the one side. I could scrape it off but that would risk scratching the journal. Any bright ideas how to get the aluminum off without touching the journal? Maybe a few drops of a strong alkaline like lye??? |
#2
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Removing galled alumunm
RoyJ wrote:
I ran my trusty Kohler 301 12 hp a bit low on oil, trashed the con rod. (My bad)It looks like the crank is ok but it has a decent buildup of galled aluminum on the one side. I could scrape it off but that would risk scratching the journal. Any bright ideas how to get the aluminum off without touching the journal? Maybe a few drops of a strong alkaline like lye??? The last time I did this repair, I used my Swiss army knife carefully. Wes |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
Heavy emphasis on 'carefully'?? I'm looking for the magic bullet!!
Actually, I was really pleased that the engine looks rebuildable. Wes wrote: RoyJ wrote: I ran my trusty Kohler 301 12 hp a bit low on oil, trashed the con rod. (My bad)It looks like the crank is ok but it has a decent buildup of galled aluminum on the one side. I could scrape it off but that would risk scratching the journal. Any bright ideas how to get the aluminum off without touching the journal? Maybe a few drops of a strong alkaline like lye??? The last time I did this repair, I used my Swiss army knife carefully. Wes |
#4
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
RoyJ wrote:
... Maybe a few drops of a strong alkaline like lye??? Lye will do it. Much easier/faster if you can immerse it. Drop-by-drop would be tedious. The journal will not be affected, other than a very good degreasing. Bob |
#5
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Removing galled alumunm
On Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:42:32 -0500, Bob Engelhardt
wrote: RoyJ wrote: ... Maybe a few drops of a strong alkaline like lye??? Lye will do it. Much easier/faster if you can immerse it. Drop-by-drop would be tedious. The journal will not be affected, other than a very good degreasing. Bob I use the cling type oven cleaner. Works good. (but make sure you take the crank out of the aluminum crankcase first to be safe) |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
"RoyJ" wrote in message m... I ran my trusty Kohler 301 12 hp a bit low on oil, trashed the con rod. (My bad)It looks like the crank is ok but it has a decent buildup of galled aluminum on the one side. I could scrape it off but that would risk scratching the journal. Any bright ideas how to get the aluminum off without touching the journal? Maybe a few drops of a strong alkaline like lye??? A brass wire wheel, NOT brass plated wire. Check it with a magnet. |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
"RoyJ" wrote in message m... I ran my trusty Kohler 301 12 hp a bit low on oil, trashed the con rod. (My bad)It looks like the crank is ok but it has a decent buildup of galled aluminum on the one side. I could scrape it off but that would risk scratching the journal. Any bright ideas how to get the aluminum off without touching the journal? Maybe a few drops of a strong alkaline like lye??? Lye is good, but not a few drops. You'll need to cover it with solution. If your patience is slim and if you want to do it at room temperature (a safe idea), you can use some Pequa drain cleaner. That's a straight 45% lye solution in water, and it's so concentrated that it's actually slightly viscous. 45% is dangerous to handle but it does the job. Dilute 50% with water if you're edgy about using a concentrated solution. I've used 20% with success -- in fact, I've wrecked a few aluminum parts with it, trying to frost them. d8-) For reference, a 40% solution is 1 kg of lye to 1.5 liters (1.5 kg) of water. That 1 to 1-1/2 ratio is easy to remember. My lye tank for small parts is a plastic Tide bottle cut in half. Don't use it with hot lye. -- Ed Huntress |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
RoyJ wrote:
Heavy emphasis on 'carefully'?? I'm looking for the magic bullet!! Actually, I was really pleased that the engine looks rebuildable. If there isn't a hole in the case, you got a good chance. I've fixed a few law mowers when I was a kid. That lye thing is looking good from the responses. Wash crank then clean and oil after the lye bath. Just out of curiosity, what is the engine mounted in? Wes |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
This is the 12 hp Kohler K301 that is all cast iron. The output shaft
bearing is a standard ball bearing with a 1.574" ID and around 4" OD. I've never seen such a massive bearing on a small engine. The flywheel end is the same 7/8" that most similar engines use for the drive end. It took two of us using a chain and sling to move if from the garage to the shop, feels like it weighs around 100 pounds. Everything looks good inside except for a chip taken out of the lower cylinder, perhaps 3/4" square. My local supplier has a piston, rings, and rod package for about $70. I'll check for taper and all that, good chance I'll bore it oversize. It's about due after all those years! The engine was in a '64 Cub Cadet tractor that I've had since the '70's. About every 10 to 15 years I hone the bore and put new rings in. That little chore was scheduled for this fall, had one more 1/2 hour session before layup. Blew on startup. The cylinder fins were completely caked in dust, no air flow what so ever. Suspect is was running way hot, burned the oil, finally grabbed the rod bearing . Wes wrote: RoyJ wrote: Heavy emphasis on 'carefully'?? I'm looking for the magic bullet!! Actually, I was really pleased that the engine looks rebuildable. If there isn't a hole in the case, you got a good chance. I've fixed a few law mowers when I was a kid. That lye thing is looking good from the responses. Wash crank then clean and oil after the lye bath. Just out of curiosity, what is the engine mounted in? Wes |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
I have a couple of hot tanks that I use for stripping paint with strong
alkaline. The small one is for heat registers, would fit the crank perfectly. I normally run these at 160 degrees, I suppose that would be a bit of overkill. Paul wrote: "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "RoyJ" wrote in message m... I ran my trusty Kohler 301 12 hp a bit low on oil, trashed the con rod. (My bad)It looks like the crank is ok but it has a decent buildup of galled aluminum on the one side. I could scrape it off but that would risk scratching the journal. Any bright ideas how to get the aluminum off without touching the journal? Maybe a few drops of a strong alkaline like lye??? Lye is good, but not a few drops. You'll need to cover it with solution. If your patience is slim and if you want to do it at room temperature (a safe idea), you can use some Pequa drain cleaner. That's a straight 45% lye solution in water, and it's so concentrated that it's actually slightly viscous. 45% is dangerous to handle but it does the job. Dilute 50% with water if you're edgy about using a concentrated solution. I've used 20% with success -- in fact, I've wrecked a few aluminum parts with it, trying to frost them. d8-) For reference, a 40% solution is 1 kg of lye to 1.5 liters (1.5 kg) of water. That 1 to 1-1/2 ratio is easy to remember. My lye tank for small parts is a plastic Tide bottle cut in half. Don't use it with hot lye. -- Ed Huntress CLR (calcium, lime, rust remover) works too. Paul |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
"RoyJ" wrote in message ... I have a couple of hot tanks that I use for stripping paint with strong alkaline. The small one is for heat registers, would fit the crank perfectly. I normally run these at 160 degrees, I suppose that would be a bit of overkill. It should speed things up. It sounds like you're all set. -- Ed Huntress |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
RoyJ wrote:
My local supplier has a piston, rings, and rod package for about $70. I'll check for taper and all that, good chance I'll bore it oversize. It's about due after all those years! How do you plan to bore it? Lathe, mill or send it out? Wes |
#13
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
Bridgeport with the vertical extension block. Standard boring head.
Bottom of the block is flat, 12" high, 6" cylinder length. Not enough travel on the spindle, would need to use the knee. Mount the block on a tooling plate, clamp that down. Use a cylinder hone to get the surface finish I need. I checked the bore this afternoon, about .001" taper, about .001" oversize. Looks like a stock piston would just go in. Wes wrote: RoyJ wrote: My local supplier has a piston, rings, and rod package for about $70. I'll check for taper and all that, good chance I'll bore it oversize. It's about due after all those years! How do you plan to bore it? Lathe, mill or send it out? Wes |
#14
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 09:40:45 -0600, RoyJ
wrote: This is the 12 hp Kohler K301 that is all cast iron. The output shaft bearing is a standard ball bearing with a 1.574" ID and around 4" OD. I've never seen such a massive bearing on a small engine. The flywheel end is the same 7/8" that most similar engines use for the drive end. It took two of us using a chain and sling to move if from the garage to the shop, feels like it weighs around 100 pounds. Everything looks good inside except for a chip taken out of the lower cylinder, perhaps 3/4" square. My local supplier has a piston, rings, and rod package for about $70. I'll check for taper and all that, good chance I'll bore it oversize. It's about due after all those years! The engine was in a '64 Cub Cadet tractor that I've had since the '70's. About every 10 to 15 years I hone the bore and put new rings in. That little chore was scheduled for this fall, had one more 1/2 hour session before layup. Blew on startup. The cylinder fins were completely caked in dust, no air flow what so ever. Suspect is was running way hot, burned the oil, finally grabbed the rod bearing . I hope your luck is better than mine. I've tried this more than once with old Kohlers and not had much luck. First one I did it right. I had it bored and the crank ground. I replaced every wear part (with Kohler brand not after market). Full rebuild. I ran it one month when it threw the counter balance gear through the side of the block. Moral of this lesson check the wear on the timing gear. Unfortunately it's made on the crankshaft and can't be replaced without a full crank (be sure your sitting when they qoute you the price). If you have some wear on the gear and have the counter balance gears my recommendation is to leave them out. It vibrates more but if the gear happens to get on top of the tooth and snaps the shaft like mine then it's not pretty. I tried at least three other times after getting several of the same engines in a trade. None lasted more than a year or two (though I admit to cutting more corners on the later ones) . The last had the chip you talk about out of it and it ran about 1 1/2 years before the oil burning got bad enough I had to give it up. I finally broke down and put a new 16HP Kohler on my old John Deere mower. It's been running great for 10 years now (though I've noticed it's been a little harder to start lately). That was another adventure since John Deere didn't use a standard Kohler engine but rather had a special oil pan to drop the engine lower over the front axle and had a smaller out put shaft than normal. The special engine was $1600 when the standard 16HP I replaced it with as $700. Just a heads up of potential problems. |
#15
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Removing galled alumunm
On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 01:07:55 -0500, "Paul"
wrote: "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "RoyJ" wrote in message m... I ran my trusty Kohler 301 12 hp a bit low on oil, trashed the con rod. (My bad)It looks like the crank is ok but it has a decent buildup of galled aluminum on the one side. I could scrape it off but that would risk scratching the journal. Any bright ideas how to get the aluminum off without touching the journal? Maybe a few drops of a strong alkaline like lye??? Lye is good, but not a few drops. You'll need to cover it with solution. If your patience is slim and if you want to do it at room temperature (a safe idea), you can use some Pequa drain cleaner. That's a straight 45% lye solution in water, and it's so concentrated that it's actually slightly viscous. 45% is dangerous to handle but it does the job. Dilute 50% with water if you're edgy about using a concentrated solution. I've used 20% with success -- in fact, I've wrecked a few aluminum parts with it, trying to frost them. d8-) For reference, a 40% solution is 1 kg of lye to 1.5 liters (1.5 kg) of water. That 1 to 1-1/2 ratio is easy to remember. My lye tank for small parts is a plastic Tide bottle cut in half. Don't use it with hot lye. -- Ed Huntress CLR (calcium, lime, rust remover) works too. Paul Not in my experience.. If it does it's awfiull slow |
#16
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Paul" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "RoyJ" wrote in message m... I ran my trusty Kohler 301 12 hp a bit low on oil, trashed the con rod. (My bad)It looks like the crank is ok but it has a decent buildup of galled aluminum on the one side. I could scrape it off but that would risk scratching the journal. Any bright ideas how to get the aluminum off without touching the journal? Maybe a few drops of a strong alkaline like lye??? Lye is good, but not a few drops. You'll need to cover it with solution. If your patience is slim and if you want to do it at room temperature (a safe idea), you can use some Pequa drain cleaner. That's a straight 45% lye solution in water, and it's so concentrated that it's actually slightly viscous. 45% is dangerous to handle but it does the job. Dilute 50% with water if you're edgy about using a concentrated solution. I've used 20% with success -- in fact, I've wrecked a few aluminum parts with it, trying to frost them. d8-) For reference, a 40% solution is 1 kg of lye to 1.5 liters (1.5 kg) of water. That 1 to 1-1/2 ratio is easy to remember. My lye tank for small parts is a plastic Tide bottle cut in half. Don't use it with hot lye. -- Ed Huntress CLR (calcium, lime, rust remover) works too. Paul It contains some mild organic acids. They probably will have no harmful effect over a short time, but I wonder how long you can leave a steel crankshaft in them. Any idea? -- Ed Huntress Ed, I've soaked HSS taps in CLR for upto a week to remove aluminum stuck in the teeth. The surface of the steel turns black but the cutting edges are still sharp. Paul |
#17
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
"Paul" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Paul" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "RoyJ" wrote in message m... I ran my trusty Kohler 301 12 hp a bit low on oil, trashed the con rod. (My bad)It looks like the crank is ok but it has a decent buildup of galled aluminum on the one side. I could scrape it off but that would risk scratching the journal. Any bright ideas how to get the aluminum off without touching the journal? Maybe a few drops of a strong alkaline like lye??? Lye is good, but not a few drops. You'll need to cover it with solution. If your patience is slim and if you want to do it at room temperature (a safe idea), you can use some Pequa drain cleaner. That's a straight 45% lye solution in water, and it's so concentrated that it's actually slightly viscous. 45% is dangerous to handle but it does the job. Dilute 50% with water if you're edgy about using a concentrated solution. I've used 20% with success -- in fact, I've wrecked a few aluminum parts with it, trying to frost them. d8-) For reference, a 40% solution is 1 kg of lye to 1.5 liters (1.5 kg) of water. That 1 to 1-1/2 ratio is easy to remember. My lye tank for small parts is a plastic Tide bottle cut in half. Don't use it with hot lye. -- Ed Huntress CLR (calcium, lime, rust remover) works too. Paul It contains some mild organic acids. They probably will have no harmful effect over a short time, but I wonder how long you can leave a steel crankshaft in them. Any idea? -- Ed Huntress Ed, I've soaked HSS taps in CLR for upto a week to remove aluminum stuck in the teeth. The surface of the steel turns black but the cutting edges are still sharp. Paul Hmm. That black oxide may be a problem on a crankshaft. At the very least it would have to be removed. Have you ever tried using a lye solution? It eats aluminum pretty fast and it doesn't hurt the steel. Warm, 40% lye solution will actually bubble hydrogen gas off fairly violently as it eats the aluminum. But you don't need a 40% solution to do the job on cutting tools. A couple of tablespoons of lye in a cup of room-temp water will do it. -- Ed Huntress |
#18
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
On Sat, 10 Jan 2009 00:10:21 -0500, "Paul"
wrote: "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Paul" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "RoyJ" wrote in message m... I ran my trusty Kohler 301 12 hp a bit low on oil, trashed the con rod. (My bad)It looks like the crank is ok but it has a decent buildup of galled aluminum on the one side. I could scrape it off but that would risk scratching the journal. Any bright ideas how to get the aluminum off without touching the journal? Maybe a few drops of a strong alkaline like lye??? Lye is good, but not a few drops. You'll need to cover it with solution. If your patience is slim and if you want to do it at room temperature (a safe idea), you can use some Pequa drain cleaner. That's a straight 45% lye solution in water, and it's so concentrated that it's actually slightly viscous. 45% is dangerous to handle but it does the job. Dilute 50% with water if you're edgy about using a concentrated solution. I've used 20% with success -- in fact, I've wrecked a few aluminum parts with it, trying to frost them. d8-) For reference, a 40% solution is 1 kg of lye to 1.5 liters (1.5 kg) of water. That 1 to 1-1/2 ratio is easy to remember. My lye tank for small parts is a plastic Tide bottle cut in half. Don't use it with hot lye. -- Ed Huntress CLR (calcium, lime, rust remover) works too. Paul It contains some mild organic acids. They probably will have no harmful effect over a short time, but I wonder how long you can leave a steel crankshaft in them. Any idea? -- Ed Huntress Ed, I've soaked HSS taps in CLR for upto a week to remove aluminum stuck in the teeth. The surface of the steel turns black but the cutting edges are still sharp. Paul And lye would do the same in about 5 minutes. It won'e embrittle the taps either. |
#19
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Paul" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Paul" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "RoyJ" wrote in message m... I ran my trusty Kohler 301 12 hp a bit low on oil, trashed the con rod. (My bad)It looks like the crank is ok but it has a decent buildup of galled aluminum on the one side. I could scrape it off but that would risk scratching the journal. Any bright ideas how to get the aluminum off without touching the journal? Maybe a few drops of a strong alkaline like lye??? Lye is good, but not a few drops. You'll need to cover it with solution. If your patience is slim and if you want to do it at room temperature (a safe idea), you can use some Pequa drain cleaner. That's a straight 45% lye solution in water, and it's so concentrated that it's actually slightly viscous. 45% is dangerous to handle but it does the job. Dilute 50% with water if you're edgy about using a concentrated solution. I've used 20% with success -- in fact, I've wrecked a few aluminum parts with it, trying to frost them. d8-) For reference, a 40% solution is 1 kg of lye to 1.5 liters (1.5 kg) of water. That 1 to 1-1/2 ratio is easy to remember. My lye tank for small parts is a plastic Tide bottle cut in half. Don't use it with hot lye. -- Ed Huntress CLR (calcium, lime, rust remover) works too. Paul It contains some mild organic acids. They probably will have no harmful effect over a short time, but I wonder how long you can leave a steel crankshaft in them. Any idea? -- Ed Huntress Ed, I've soaked HSS taps in CLR for upto a week to remove aluminum stuck in the teeth. The surface of the steel turns black but the cutting edges are still sharp. Paul Hmm. That black oxide may be a problem on a crankshaft. At the very least it would have to be removed. Have you ever tried using a lye solution? It eats aluminum pretty fast and it doesn't hurt the steel. Warm, 40% lye solution will actually bubble hydrogen gas off fairly violently as it eats the aluminum. But you don't need a 40% solution to do the job on cutting tools. A couple of tablespoons of lye in a cup of room-temp water will do it. -- Ed Huntress I have not tried using lye. When I first did some online research about removing aluminum a few years ago I found recommendations for both lye and CLR. I already had some CLR so I gave it a shot and it worked, so that's what I've been using. Also, the CLR appears to less hazardous, at least according to the MSDS. The black oxide may be problem on a crank shaft, but taps I use the CLR on (normally 3/8 & 1/2 NPT 8" lg. pulley taps) actually get aluminum stuck in the teeth less often after they have been in the CLR. Paul |
#20
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Removing galled alumunm
"Paul" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Paul" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Paul" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "RoyJ" wrote in message m... I ran my trusty Kohler 301 12 hp a bit low on oil, trashed the con rod. (My bad)It looks like the crank is ok but it has a decent buildup of galled aluminum on the one side. I could scrape it off but that would risk scratching the journal. Any bright ideas how to get the aluminum off without touching the journal? Maybe a few drops of a strong alkaline like lye??? Lye is good, but not a few drops. You'll need to cover it with solution. If your patience is slim and if you want to do it at room temperature (a safe idea), you can use some Pequa drain cleaner. That's a straight 45% lye solution in water, and it's so concentrated that it's actually slightly viscous. 45% is dangerous to handle but it does the job. Dilute 50% with water if you're edgy about using a concentrated solution. I've used 20% with success -- in fact, I've wrecked a few aluminum parts with it, trying to frost them. d8-) For reference, a 40% solution is 1 kg of lye to 1.5 liters (1.5 kg) of water. That 1 to 1-1/2 ratio is easy to remember. My lye tank for small parts is a plastic Tide bottle cut in half. Don't use it with hot lye. -- Ed Huntress CLR (calcium, lime, rust remover) works too. Paul It contains some mild organic acids. They probably will have no harmful effect over a short time, but I wonder how long you can leave a steel crankshaft in them. Any idea? -- Ed Huntress Ed, I've soaked HSS taps in CLR for upto a week to remove aluminum stuck in the teeth. The surface of the steel turns black but the cutting edges are still sharp. Paul Hmm. That black oxide may be a problem on a crankshaft. At the very least it would have to be removed. Have you ever tried using a lye solution? It eats aluminum pretty fast and it doesn't hurt the steel. Warm, 40% lye solution will actually bubble hydrogen gas off fairly violently as it eats the aluminum. But you don't need a 40% solution to do the job on cutting tools. A couple of tablespoons of lye in a cup of room-temp water will do it. -- Ed Huntress I have not tried using lye. When I first did some online research about removing aluminum a few years ago I found recommendations for both lye and CLR. I already had some CLR so I gave it a shot and it worked, so that's what I've been using. Also, the CLR appears to less hazardous, at least according to the MSDS. The black oxide may be problem on a crank shaft, but taps I use the CLR on (normally 3/8 & 1/2 NPT 8" lg. pulley taps) actually get aluminum stuck in the teeth less often after they have been in the CLR. Paul Ok, I could see that. The black form of oxide sometimes has a pretty weak grip on steel (the electrical de-rusting method produces some black smut like that, for example), so maybe it's forming a barrier. Interesting. Since I have 85-year-old plumbing in my house, I'm very comfortable working with lye. g It can be a little tricky in higher concentrations. But the small quantities and low concentrations needed for frosting aluminum, or for dissolving it in moderate quantitites, aren't much of a problem. You can flush it down the drain. I do it weekly, as a matter of fact. -- Ed Huntress |
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