SteveB wrote:
My grandkids have this ATV. It's plastic, and runs on a 12v 8AH battery
that won't charge any more. I haven't priced them, but they're probably
proprietary and spendy. Would a common lawnmower/motorcycle battery from
Checker work? They're close to the same size. Or would it have too much
amperage and burn up the motor?

A "starter" battery would work fine, but not for long. Starter
batteries are not meant for deep discharge. They're meant to deliver a
lot of current very briefly and then be recharged. Deep discharge is
about the worst thing to do to a starter battery.

The ATV needs a deep discharge battery, such as the battery for a
trolling (fishing) motor.

Bob
--
Nota for President

"SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:

My grandkids have this ATV. It's plastic, and runs on a 12v 8AH
battery that won't charge any more. I haven't priced them, but
they're probably proprietary and spendy. Would a common
lawnmower/motorcycle battery from Checker work? They're close to
the same size. Or would it have too much amperage and burn up the
motor?

Only if the battery's voltage is too high. If the battery voltage is
correct for the motor, it's the other way around, you need to know
whether the battery can supply enough current. Most batteries can
supply lots of current. The amp hour rating is just the battery
capacity. Greater amp hours at the same correct voltage just means
it will run the motor longer (and it takes longer to charge).

Whether your replacement battery is suitable might also depend on
whether it can withstand shock.



--
The first big front wheel rollerblades.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27532210@N04/2565924423/

FWIW, I agree with Bob's reply. Being a deep discharge battery is
important.

My grandkids have this ATV. It's plastic, and runs on a 12v 8AH battery
that won't charge any more. I haven't priced them, but they're probably
proprietary and spendy. Would a common lawnmower/motorcycle battery from
Checker work? They're close to the same size. Or would it have too much
amperage and burn up the motor?

Steve

--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly,
not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."
Theodore Roosevelt 1891

SteveB wrote:
My grandkids have this ATV. It's plastic, and runs on a 12v 8AH battery
that won't charge any more. I haven't priced them, but they're probably
proprietary and spendy. Would a common lawnmower/motorcycle battery from
Checker work? They're close to the same size. Or would it have too much
amperage and burn up the motor?

Steve

This ougha do. 20 bux.
http://www.batterywholesale.com/batt...ml?prodID=2818

--Winston

SteveB writes:

I haven't priced them, but they're probably proprietary and spendy.

Probably a stock item gel type:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA

Look in the digi-key.com catalog to find what you need, then shop on eBay.
I've replaced many in toys and UPSs. Shipping cost dominates. Make sure
you get current date codes, don't buy from anyone who doesn't report a date
code or says it doesn't matter.

At our local county recycling drop-off, you can pick all the VRLAs you want
for free from dud UPSs people have left off. Usually the batteries are
worn out, but some of them have pretty new batteries connected to dead
electronics.

On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:00:04 -0800, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas
wrote:

My grandkids have this ATV. It's plastic, and runs on a 12v 8AH battery
that won't charge any more. I haven't priced them, but they're probably
proprietary and spendy. Would a common lawnmower/motorcycle battery from
Checker work? They're close to the same size. Or would it have too much
amperage and burn up the motor?

It needs to be a Deep Cycle style battery for the usage. Most
Sealed Lead Acid "Gel Cell" batteries are, most motorcycle and car
batteries are not.

And a wet style trolling motor battery can leak battery acid all
over the kids if they turn the toy car over during play, and we
obviously don't want that.

Too much amperage or amp-hour capacity is not a problem, most of
these cars have a simple two- or three-stage controller that has one
or two big series speed regulation resistors, then straight through
12V to the motor.

The best battery is a generic 12V 8AH to 12AH Gel Cell battery that
will fit in the battery space under the "hood" - all you have to add
is an inline fuse holder to equal the "built-in" fuseholder in the
purpose built battery. And be sure to secure it in place with a clamp
or strap somewhat like the original.

If you feel like spending a lot of money ($100 - $150) on the battery
and doing some plastic body modifications to mount it, there's no
reason you can't go WAY bigger with the battery. The Optima Spiracell
starved-electrolyte cell (yellow or blue top for deep cycle) will work
fine and let the kids run around most of the day on one charge.

WARNING: The Optima batteries are very low internal resistance and
can dump a hellacious amount of current into a dead short, several
thousand amperes. This is good for some uses, bad for yours.
Therefore, you MUST take proper precautions.

Have a robust inline fuse that is rated to interrupt that level of
current - cheap ATO and AGC automotive fuses are NOT rated for this,
they could arc across. And you MUST protect the battery terminals from
any accidental short circuit contact. Bolting the hood closed with
tamper-resistant fasteners (Tamper Torx) to keep kiddie fingers out
would be a prudent idea. If it stops working, call Daddy.

-- Bruce --

Richard J Kinch wrote:
SteveB writes:

I haven't priced them, but they're probably proprietary and spendy.

Probably a stock item gel type:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA

Look in the digi-key.com catalog to find what you need, then shop on eBay.
I've replaced many in toys and UPSs. Shipping cost dominates. Make sure
you get current date codes, don't buy from anyone who doesn't report a date
code or says it doesn't matter.

so that rules out ebay on two counts- 1) crap source batteries 2) scam
shipping rates.

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:00:04 -0800, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas
wrote:

My grandkids have this ATV. It's plastic, and runs on a 12v 8AH battery
that won't charge any more. I haven't priced them, but they're probably
proprietary and spendy. Would a common lawnmower/motorcycle battery from
Checker work? They're close to the same size. Or would it have too much
amperage and burn up the motor?

It needs to be a Deep Cycle style battery for the usage. Most
Sealed Lead Acid "Gel Cell" batteries are, most motorcycle and car
batteries are not.

And a wet style trolling motor battery can leak battery acid all
over the kids if they turn the toy car over during play, and we
obviously don't want that.

Too much amperage or amp-hour capacity is not a problem, most of
these cars have a simple two- or three-stage controller that has one
or two big series speed regulation resistors, then straight through
12V to the motor.

The best battery is a generic 12V 8AH to 12AH Gel Cell battery that
will fit in the battery space under the "hood" - all you have to add
is an inline fuse holder to equal the "built-in" fuseholder in the
purpose built battery. And be sure to secure it in place with a clamp
or strap somewhat like the original.

If you feel like spending a lot of money ($100 - $150) on the battery
and doing some plastic body modifications to mount it, there's no
reason you can't go WAY bigger with the battery. The Optima Spiracell
starved-electrolyte cell (yellow or blue top for deep cycle) will work
fine and let the kids run around most of the day on one charge.

Interesting batteries. Are these somehow related (other than being rolled
up) to those "cyclone" batteries that were made by Gates years ago?

"SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote
"SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:

My grandkids have this ATV. It's plastic, and runs on a 12v 8AH
battery that won't charge any more. I haven't priced them, but
they're probably proprietary and spendy. Would a common
lawnmower/motorcycle battery from Checker work? They're close
to the same size. Or would it have too much amperage and burn up
the motor?

It needs to be a Deep Cycle style battery for the usage. Most
Sealed Lead Acid "Gel Cell" batteries are, most motorcycle and
car batteries are not.

I have tipped the battery upside down, and although it says
lead/acid, nothing came out.

There are sealed lead acid batteries that don't leak.

Those who suggested deep cycle RV and golf cart batteries were
simply overthinking this.

My first attempt was under thinking this. They are right and it's
not that big of a deal to get one. Being deep cycle/discharge has
nothing to do with battery size. They don't have to be big, ordinary
household batteries probably fit the description of being a deep
discharge/cycle battery. That's what you need. You just don't want a
battery made for starting equipment or motor vehicles.



--
The first big front wheel rollerblades.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27532210@N04/2565924423/

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:00:04 -0800, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas
wrote:

My grandkids have this ATV. It's plastic, and runs on a 12v 8AH battery
that won't charge any more. I haven't priced them, but they're probably
proprietary and spendy. Would a common lawnmower/motorcycle battery from
Checker work? They're close to the same size. Or would it have too much
amperage and burn up the motor?

It needs to be a Deep Cycle style battery for the usage. Most
Sealed Lead Acid "Gel Cell" batteries are, most motorcycle and car
batteries are not.

And a wet style trolling motor battery can leak battery acid all
over the kids if they turn the toy car over during play, and we
obviously don't want that.

Too much amperage or amp-hour capacity is not a problem, most of
these cars have a simple two- or three-stage controller that has one
or two big series speed regulation resistors, then straight through
12V to the motor.

The best battery is a generic 12V 8AH to 12AH Gel Cell battery that
will fit in the battery space under the "hood" - all you have to add
is an inline fuse holder to equal the "built-in" fuseholder in the
purpose built battery. And be sure to secure it in place with a clamp
or strap somewhat like the original.

If you feel like spending a lot of money ($100 - $150) on the battery
and doing some plastic body modifications to mount it, there's no
reason you can't go WAY bigger with the battery. The Optima Spiracell
starved-electrolyte cell (yellow or blue top for deep cycle) will work
fine and let the kids run around most of the day on one charge.

WARNING: The Optima batteries are very low internal resistance and
can dump a hellacious amount of current into a dead short, several
thousand amperes. This is good for some uses, bad for yours.
Therefore, you MUST take proper precautions.

Have a robust inline fuse that is rated to interrupt that level of
current - cheap ATO and AGC automotive fuses are NOT rated for this,
they could arc across. And you MUST protect the battery terminals from
any accidental short circuit contact. Bolting the hood closed with
tamper-resistant fasteners (Tamper Torx) to keep kiddie fingers out
would be a prudent idea. If it stops working, call Daddy.

-- Bruce --

This whole thing is just a kids toy. The battery is about half the size of
a motorcycle battery. There is a squeeze/pull terminal that Ray Charles
couldn't get wrong. I have tipped the battery upside down, and although it
says lead/acid, nothing came out. I have had it on the charger now for 12+
hours, and it doesn't work except to turn the wheels slowly. So, I guess
I'll just go get another battery. One of the first posters posted a link to
a very similar looking battery for $20, at Battery Depot, IIRC. Probably
could get one locally. Plus, inside the cowling, it says you can put two
batteries together to double riding time.

Those who suggested deep cycle RV and golf cart batteries were simply
overthinking this. The actual battery is about six inches high, eight
inches long, and 2.5 inches thick. We're talking PlayHouse toys here. The
ATV would stand on its nose if I put one of those big honkers in there.

Steve

Cydrome Leader wrote:
Richard J Kinch wrote:
SteveB writes:

I haven't priced them, but they're probably proprietary and spendy.
Probably a stock item gel type:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA

Look in the digi-key.com catalog to find what you need, then shop on eBay.
I've replaced many in toys and UPSs. Shipping cost dominates. Make sure
you get current date codes, don't buy from anyone who doesn't report a date
code or says it doesn't matter.

so that rules out ebay on two counts- 1) crap source batteries 2) scam
shipping rates.


If you are going with the gel cell battery, they should be available at
your nearby burglar alarm company office, most electronics stores, and
even radio shak (expensive!)


technomaNge
--

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 19:25:56 -0800, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas
wrote:


"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:00:04 -0800, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas
wrote:

My grandkids have this ATV. It's plastic, and runs on a 12v 8AH battery
that won't charge any more. I haven't priced them, but they're probably
proprietary and spendy. Would a common lawnmower/motorcycle battery from
Checker work? They're close to the same size. Or would it have too much
amperage and burn up the motor?

It needs to be a Deep Cycle style battery for the usage. Most
Sealed Lead Acid "Gel Cell" batteries are, most motorcycle and car
batteries are not.

And a wet style trolling motor battery can leak battery acid all
over the kids if they turn the toy car over during play, and we
obviously don't want that.

Too much amperage or amp-hour capacity is not a problem, most of
these cars have a simple two- or three-stage controller that has one
or two big series speed regulation resistors, then straight through
12V to the motor.

The best battery is a generic 12V 8AH to 12AH Gel Cell battery that
will fit in the battery space under the "hood" - all you have to add
is an inline fuse holder to equal the "built-in" fuseholder in the
purpose built battery. And be sure to secure it in place with a clamp
or strap somewhat like the original.

If you feel like spending a lot of money ($100 - $150) on the battery
and doing some plastic body modifications to mount it, there's no
reason you can't go WAY bigger with the battery. The Optima Spiracell
starved-electrolyte cell (yellow or blue top for deep cycle) will work
fine and let the kids run around most of the day on one charge.

WARNING: The Optima batteries are very low internal resistance and
can dump a hellacious amount of current into a dead short, several
thousand amperes. This is good for some uses, bad for yours.
Therefore, you MUST take proper precautions.

Have a robust inline fuse that is rated to interrupt that level of
current - cheap ATO and AGC automotive fuses are NOT rated for this,
they could arc across. And you MUST protect the battery terminals from
any accidental short circuit contact. Bolting the hood closed with
tamper-resistant fasteners (Tamper Torx) to keep kiddie fingers out
would be a prudent idea. If it stops working, call Daddy.

-- Bruce --

This whole thing is just a kids toy. The battery is about half the size of
a motorcycle battery. There is a squeeze/pull terminal that Ray Charles
couldn't get wrong. I have tipped the battery upside down, and although it
says lead/acid, nothing came out. I have had it on the charger now for 12+
hours, and it doesn't work except to turn the wheels slowly. So, I guess
I'll just go get another battery. One of the first posters posted a link to
a very similar looking battery for $20, at Battery Depot, IIRC. Probably
could get one locally. Plus, inside the cowling, it says you can put two
batteries together to double riding time.

Those who suggested deep cycle RV and golf cart batteries were simply
overthinking this. The actual battery is about six inches high, eight
inches long, and 2.5 inches thick. We're talking PlayHouse toys here. The
ATV would stand on its nose if I put one of those big honkers in there.

Steve

A standard Alarm Battery...any electronics house or alarm store will
have them. The electronics houses are much cheaper


Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do
something damned nasty to all three of them.

technomaNge wrote:

Cydrome Leader wrote:
Richard J Kinch wrote:
SteveB writes:

I haven't priced them, but they're probably proprietary and spendy.
Probably a stock item gel type:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA

Look in the digi-key.com catalog to find what you need, then shop on eBay.
I've replaced many in toys and UPSs. Shipping cost dominates. Make sure
you get current date codes, don't buy from anyone who doesn't report a date
code or says it doesn't matter.

so that rules out ebay on two counts- 1) crap source batteries 2) scam
shipping rates.

If you are going with the gel cell battery, they should be available at
your nearby burglar alarm company office, most electronics stores, and
even radio shak (expensive!)


Some are used in emergency lighting, as well. The local Home Depot
had a couple sizes in stock, the last time I checked.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:25:30 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

If you feel like spending a lot of money ($100 - $150) on the battery
and doing some plastic body modifications to mount it, there's no
reason you can't go WAY bigger with the battery. The Optima Spiracell
starved-electrolyte cell (yellow or blue top for deep cycle) will work
fine and let the kids run around most of the day on one charge.

Interesting batteries. Are these somehow related (other than being rolled
up) to those "cyclone" batteries that were made by Gates years ago?

The Gates Cyclon is the same basic idea - rolled up positive and
negative plates, mat separators and insulating separators, and a
little squirt of electrolyte. Just like a big electrolytic capacitor.

If you can find them, they make smaller batteries out of the Cyclon
cells that can fit in the existing battery wells. But you still have
to watch out for that short circuit dump current and use a fuse with a
high interrupt rating - but not nearly as nasty as a car-sized Optima.

-- Bruce --

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 19:25:56 -0800, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas
wrote:

This whole thing is just a kids toy. The battery is about half the size of
a motorcycle battery. There is a squeeze/pull terminal that Ray Charles
couldn't get wrong. I have tipped the battery upside down, and although it
says lead/acid, nothing came out.

That's the whole idea behind a gelled electrolyte - no leaks, even
if you cut it open it mostly stays in place.

I have had it on the charger now for 12+
hours, and it doesn't work except to turn the wheels slowly. So, I guess
I'll just go get another battery. One of the first posters posted a link to
a very similar looking battery for $20, at Battery Depot, IIRC. Probably
could get one locally.

Yes you can - but they charge extra for the ones from the toy maker
with the built-in fuseholder and the purpose made plug-in leads.

A generic gel-cell battery you'll have to cut off the connecting
harness from the old batteries and splice it to your own fuseholder
and QC terminals for the battery posts - but you'll also save 30% or
more.

Plus, inside the cowling, it says you can put two
batteries together to double riding time.

They are putting two 12V batteries in parallel to get 12V at double
the AH capacity - that works, but only if the two batteries are very
closely matched from the factory and always used together. And even
then, one battery always has a slightly lower internal resistance and
gets discharged first - if it gets driven into reverse charge it can
be permanently damaged.

If you want to increase the run time, pick out two 6V gel batteries
that will fit in the two wells, and wire them in series. They will
live a lot longer than two 12V batteries in parallel.

Those who suggested deep cycle RV and golf cart batteries were simply
overthinking this. The actual battery is about six inches high, eight
inches long, and 2.5 inches thick. We're talking PlayHouse toys here. The
ATV would stand on its nose if I put one of those big honkers in there.

This is r.c.m - We /always/ overthink things, it's more fun! ;-)

Remember what Tim 'The Tool Man' Taylor says:
"What do we need? More Power!!"

-- Bruce --

Get a pair of 7 or 8 ah AGM batteries commonly used in alarm systems,
emergency lighting systems, computer UPS, and other rechargeable
devices. Should cost about 25-30 each - possibly as much as 35
depending where you buy them. Put the pigtail from the old battery on
and GO!

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 19:25:56 -0800, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas
wrote:


"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:00:04 -0800, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas
wrote:

My grandkids have this ATV. It's plastic, and runs on a 12v 8AH battery
that won't charge any more. I haven't priced them, but they're probably
proprietary and spendy. Would a common lawnmower/motorcycle battery from
Checker work? They're close to the same size. Or would it have too much
amperage and burn up the motor?

It needs to be a Deep Cycle style battery for the usage. Most
Sealed Lead Acid "Gel Cell" batteries are, most motorcycle and car
batteries are not.

And a wet style trolling motor battery can leak battery acid all
over the kids if they turn the toy car over during play, and we
obviously don't want that.

Too much amperage or amp-hour capacity is not a problem, most of
these cars have a simple two- or three-stage controller that has one
or two big series speed regulation resistors, then straight through
12V to the motor.

The best battery is a generic 12V 8AH to 12AH Gel Cell battery that
will fit in the battery space under the "hood" - all you have to add
is an inline fuse holder to equal the "built-in" fuseholder in the
purpose built battery. And be sure to secure it in place with a clamp
or strap somewhat like the original.

If you feel like spending a lot of money ($100 - $150) on the battery
and doing some plastic body modifications to mount it, there's no
reason you can't go WAY bigger with the battery. The Optima Spiracell
starved-electrolyte cell (yellow or blue top for deep cycle) will work
fine and let the kids run around most of the day on one charge.

WARNING: The Optima batteries are very low internal resistance and
can dump a hellacious amount of current into a dead short, several
thousand amperes. This is good for some uses, bad for yours.
Therefore, you MUST take proper precautions.

Have a robust inline fuse that is rated to interrupt that level of
current - cheap ATO and AGC automotive fuses are NOT rated for this,
they could arc across. And you MUST protect the battery terminals from
any accidental short circuit contact. Bolting the hood closed with
tamper-resistant fasteners (Tamper Torx) to keep kiddie fingers out
would be a prudent idea. If it stops working, call Daddy.

-- Bruce --

This whole thing is just a kids toy. The battery is about half the size of
a motorcycle battery. There is a squeeze/pull terminal that Ray Charles
couldn't get wrong. I have tipped the battery upside down, and although it
says lead/acid, nothing came out. I have had it on the charger now for 12+
hours, and it doesn't work except to turn the wheels slowly. So, I guess
I'll just go get another battery. One of the first posters posted a link to
a very similar looking battery for $20, at Battery Depot, IIRC. Probably
could get one locally. Plus, inside the cowling, it says you can put two
batteries together to double riding time.

Those who suggested deep cycle RV and golf cart batteries were simply
overthinking this. The actual battery is about six inches high, eight
inches long, and 2.5 inches thick. We're talking PlayHouse toys here. The
ATV would stand on its nose if I put one of those big honkers in there.

Steve


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 23:42:46 -0400, clare at snyder dot ontario dot
canada wrote:


Get a pair of 7 or 8 ah AGM batteries commonly used in alarm systems,
emergency lighting systems, computer UPS, and other rechargeable
devices. Should cost about 25-30 each - possibly as much as 35
depending where you buy them. Put the pigtail from the old battery on
and GO!

Note that the batteries made for UPS Systems have special codes
added to the standard model numbers, with a higher discharge rate, and
a corresponding higher price cause they cost more to make. And they
have different terminals (usually bolted lugs instead of QC Tabs) that
can pass the higher current levels.

Your standard 7AH batteries have a 20A fuse and will see a 6A - 10A
max load for an hour or two - the same size batteries in a UPS might
see 40A to 60A load, but only for three to ten minutes.

About the only other place this would be useful is driving an
electric starter for a small (under 10 HP) gasoline engine, where the
battery size and weight is an issue.

-- Bruce --

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

clare at snyder dot ontario dot

Get a pair of 7 or 8 ah AGM batteries commonly used in alarm
systems, emergency lighting systems, computer UPS, and other
rechargeable devices. Should cost about 25-30 each - possibly as
much as 35 depending where you buy them. Put the pigtail from the
old battery on and GO!

Note that the batteries made for UPS Systems have special codes
added to the standard model numbers, with a higher discharge rate,
and a corresponding higher price cause they cost more to make. And
they have different terminals (usually bolted lugs instead of QC
Tabs) that can pass the higher current levels.

My Internet Office 500 uninterruptible power supply UPS battery by
Tripp-Lite does not have bolted lugs, it has tabs that the
connectors slide onto. But I'm wondering how a sturdier connector
would be an issue anyway.

Your standard 7AH batteries have a 20A fuse and will see a 6A -
10A
max load for an hour or two - the same size batteries in a UPS
might see 40A to 60A load, but only for three to ten minutes.

About the only other place this would be useful is driving an
electric starter for a small (under 10 HP) gasoline engine, where
the battery size and weight is an issue.

Why is being able to source more current a problem?
The motor will draw only the current it needs and the fuse will
work, whether the battery can source 20 amps or 1000 amps.

The buyer can easily decide simply based on comparing prices.


--
The first big front wheel rollerblades.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27532210@N04/2565924423/

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 21:39:02 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 23:42:46 -0400, clare at snyder dot ontario dot
canada wrote:


Get a pair of 7 or 8 ah AGM batteries commonly used in alarm systems,
emergency lighting systems, computer UPS, and other rechargeable
devices. Should cost about 25-30 each - possibly as much as 35
depending where you buy them. Put the pigtail from the old battery on
and GO!

Note that the batteries made for UPS Systems have special codes
added to the standard model numbers, with a higher discharge rate, and
a corresponding higher price cause they cost more to make. And they
have different terminals (usually bolted lugs instead of QC Tabs) that
can pass the higher current levels.


Not true.
I replace at least 50 UPS batteries a year - many different
manufacturers - and they all use either PE12V7.2 or NP4-6 batteries
with 1/4 or 5/16" push-on spade connectors.(or as you call them, QC)
Same batteries as in the emergency exit lamps, the burglar alarm, and
my rechargable spotlight. Same battery in my old cordless weedwacker
too. Same as in my kid's electric scooter, too.
When you get up into the 16AH batteries lugged connectors are more or
less standard (like the ones in my Black and Decker cordless lawn
mower)
Your standard 7AH batteries have a 20A fuse and will see a 6A - 10A
max load for an hour or two - the same size batteries in a UPS might
see 40A to 60A load, but only for three to ten minutes.

A 600 va UPS draws approx 60 amps at full load (Blazer with one
PE12V7.2 battery) An 800 va unit usually runs on 24 volts (2 PE12V7.2
batteries or 4 NP4-6 batteries. so sees a draw of 50 amps The 1000VA
units I service run on 36 volts (6 NP4-6) except the extended run
capable system which runs on 42 volts (7 of the same) and sees about
27 amps draw at full load. Most UPS systems run at less than 1/2
capacity.

For a while we could only get the 1/4" tabs, and we saw a few where
the connections heated up under load. My supplier now stocks the
proper 5/15" (nominal) tabs.

The 24 volt scooter (350 watt) draws approx 15 amps (and runs about
1/2 hour on a full charge, pretty well flat out, or an hour just
tooting around)

About the only other place this would be useful is driving an
electric starter for a small (under 10 HP) gasoline engine, where the
battery size and weight is an issue.

-- Bruce --

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:54:33 GMT, John Doe
wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

clare at snyder dot ontario dot

Get a pair of 7 or 8 ah AGM batteries commonly used in alarm
systems, emergency lighting systems, computer UPS, and other
rechargeable devices. Should cost about 25-30 each - possibly as
much as 35 depending where you buy them. Put the pigtail from the
old battery on and GO!

Note that the batteries made for UPS Systems have special codes
added to the standard model numbers, with a higher discharge rate,
and a corresponding higher price cause they cost more to make. And
they have different terminals (usually bolted lugs instead of QC
Tabs) that can pass the higher current levels.

My Internet Office 500 uninterruptible power supply UPS battery by
Tripp-Lite does not have bolted lugs, it has tabs that the
connectors slide onto. But I'm wondering how a sturdier connector
would be an issue anyway.

Your standard 7AH batteries have a 20A fuse and will see a 6A -
10A
max load for an hour or two - the same size batteries in a UPS
might see 40A to 60A load, but only for three to ten minutes.

About the only other place this would be useful is driving an
electric starter for a small (under 10 HP) gasoline engine, where
the battery size and weight is an issue.

Why is being able to source more current a problem?
The motor will draw only the current it needs and the fuse will
work, whether the battery can source 20 amps or 1000 amps.

The buyer can easily decide simply based on comparing prices.


I have some Hawker 22AH batteries that will gladly dish out 2000 amps
into a short circuit that would also make good batteries for the kid's
little sidewalk car. (at about $279 each. last I recall). It will very
handily crank the 165 inch Chevy Corvair.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

What's that Lassie? You say that SteveB fell down the old
rec.crafts.metalworking mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
by Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:00:04 -0800:

My grandkids have this ATV. It's plastic, and runs on a 12v 8AH battery
that won't charge any more. I haven't priced them, but they're probably
proprietary and spendy. Would a common lawnmower/motorcycle battery from
Checker work? They're close to the same size. Or would it have too much
amperage and burn up the motor?

Steve

Look he
http://www.batterystation.com/

under 'sealed lead acid'.
--

Dan H.

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:54:33 GMT, John Doe
wrote:
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
clare at snyder dot ontario dot

Get a pair of 7 or 8 ah AGM batteries commonly used in alarm
systems, emergency lighting systems, computer UPS, and other
rechargeable devices. Should cost about 25-30 each - possibly as
much as 35 depending where you buy them. Put the pigtail from the
old battery on and GO!

Note that the batteries made for UPS Systems have special codes
added to the standard model numbers, with a higher discharge rate,
and a corresponding higher price cause they cost more to make. And
they have different terminals (usually bolted lugs instead of QC
Tabs) that can pass the higher current levels.

My Internet Office 500 uninterruptible power supply UPS battery by
Tripp-Lite does not have bolted lugs, it has tabs that the
connectors slide onto. But I'm wondering how a sturdier connector
would be an issue anyway.

The 500W to 1000W size is at the upper end of how much current you
can send reliably through a .250 Tab Quick Connect fitting.

My Tripp-Lite Smart-UPS 2200W unit has four 12V 17AH high-rate
batteries - two 24V battery banks in series-parallel, bolted posts
with ring terminals, each battery bank fused at 100A and feeding into
the unit through 100A Anderson Powerpole slide connectors.

And I'm about ready to replace them AGAIN, but this time with four
low maintenance type deep-cycle batteries (90AH or 105AH) that will
cost about the same as the special batteries but give roughly 4X to 6X
the run time.

Your standard 7AH batteries have a 20A fuse and will see a 6A -
10A max load for an hour or two - the same size batteries in a
UPS might see 40A to 60A load, but only for three to ten minutes.

About the only other place this would be useful is driving an
electric starter for a small (under 10 HP) gasoline engine, where
the battery size and weight is an issue.

Why is being able to source more current a problem?
The motor will draw only the current it needs and the fuse will
work, whether the battery can source 20 amps or 1000 amps.

The batteries being able to source more current than the load needs
is not a problem at all, it's smart design and/or overkill. In the
case of the Power Toy that the OP wants to repower, those batteries
should last longer with the same treatment.

But the opposite can be a HUGE problem, when the load needs more
current than the batteries can provide /something/ isn't going to work
as designed. And THAT is the reason I brought up the warning in the
first place.

The buyer can easily decide simply based on comparing prices.

If you buy batteries for a UPS or other high-draw application based
on price alone (and buy the wrong batteries) you are setting yourself
up for a very painful and expensive fall. Saving $10 on batteries in
a critical application is dangerously false thinking.

A small UPS needs to reliably source a full 40A to 60A battery bank
draw continuously for ten minutes or so before the voltage starts to
fall off indicating a dead battery. The UPS is expecting high-rate
batteries with a predictable discharge voltage curve.

If you put in cheaper regular gel-cell batteries built for a 10A max
discharge rate, the voltage will start to drop almost immediately
because of the higher internal resistance, and when the battery
reaches total discharge instead of a slow and steady voltage drop the
output voltage will crash like a rock.

The UPS is expecting 30 seconds of remaining run time to issue
shutdown commands to the attached computer before the batteries run
critically dry. If the power fails only 5 or 10 seconds after the
low-voltage point (before the shutdown process can complete) you can
hose the computer, and corrupt all the program data from whatever
software and database applications that were running.

If the lost or scrambled records are the main bookkeeping database
with all the Accounts Receivable, or customer service queue for your
company, expect months of reconstructing them - if you are still in
business in three months...

And that's the real message here.

-- Bruce --

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 18:18:50 -0400, clare at snyder dot ontario dot
canada wrote:

I have some Hawker 22AH batteries that will gladly dish out 2000 amps
into a short circuit that would also make good batteries for the kid's
little sidewalk car. (at about $279 each. last I recall). It will very
handily crank the 165 inch Chevy Corvair.

Why? I can go get a Group 51R battery (from a newer Hyundai, IIRC)
that drops right in an early Corvair and works fine - and a LOT less
than $279, more like $50.

The Group 57 batteries are almost unobtanium now.

-- Bruce --

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:16:08 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 18:18:50 -0400, clare at snyder dot ontario dot
canada wrote:

I have some Hawker 22AH batteries that will gladly dish out 2000 amps
into a short circuit that would also make good batteries for the kid's
little sidewalk car. (at about $279 each. last I recall). It will very
handily crank the 165 inch Chevy Corvair.

Why? I can go get a Group 51R battery (from a newer Hyundai, IIRC)
that drops right in an early Corvair and works fine - and a LOT less
than $279, more like $50.

The Group 57 batteries are almost unobtanium now.

-- Bruce --
These little fellers are a bit lighter - the CorvAir engine will be in
an airplane.

I actually got the batteries with the idea of a bike pusher trailer,
and they will likely go in the replica "Red Bug".
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **