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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save
copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? Thanks, Ivan Vegvary |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
Ivan Vegvary wrote:
Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? Thanks, Ivan Vegvary Autos are going to use 34 volts in a couple of years. They are being designed now. Bill K7NOM |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
Bill Janssen wrote:
Ivan Vegvary wrote: Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? Thanks, Ivan Vegvary Autos are going to use 34 volts in a couple of years. They are being designed now. Bill K7NOM Was supposed to 42 volts several years back - what happened? |
#4
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in news:97Poj.33$f73.12@trndny08:
Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? Thanks, Ivan Vegvary From what I've heard, they're going to skip 24V and go straight to 48V. This will enable the use of 4 motorcycle-sized batteries that can be secreted in different areas of the vehicle for fuelled vehicles and 4 car- sized batteries for electric/hybrid cars. |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
On Feb 1, 4:50*pm, "Ivan Vegvary" wrote:
Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? The industry is working up standards for '42V' which will be a 36V battery with charge voltage circa 42 volts... just as '12V' has a 12V battery but charges at 14V or more. Practically this will make the electronics compatible with telephone type gear (which has 48V battery backup) instead of the aviation/military gear (which uses 24V battery). Probably they think it's cheaper this way. |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 00:50:13 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ivan
Vegvary" quickly quoth: Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? I vaguely remember an article about that in Popular Science or Pop Mech years ago, but I don't recall why it didn't catch on. Price of components, probably. --- The world is wide, and I will not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into momentum. --Frances Willard (1839 - 1898) ---------- |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
We are in the process of switching to ? 72 ? volts IIRC.
Yes high voltage. Low current. Less copper. Local power supplies for generating what ever voltage wanted. There are changes in the industry here and there and now a little more. I suspect the power for toys will ?maybe? be the same. You just have a local step-down switcher that can generate high current for boom box toys and nominal current for lights. Very clean for DVD and GPS and car CPU's. Martin Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal. NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/ Ivan Vegvary wrote: Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? Thanks, Ivan Vegvary |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
Maybe that was ? 42 ? - been a couple of years since I sat on a committee
that discussed and designed that long range stuff for automotive. Martin [ former IEEE and EIA/JEDEC member ] Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal. NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/ Martin H. Eastburn wrote: We are in the process of switching to ? 72 ? volts IIRC. Yes high voltage. Low current. Less copper. Local power supplies for generating what ever voltage wanted. There are changes in the industry here and there and now a little more. I suspect the power for toys will ?maybe? be the same. You just have a local step-down switcher that can generate high current for boom box toys and nominal current for lights. Very clean for DVD and GPS and car CPU's. Martin Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal. NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/ Ivan Vegvary wrote: Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? Thanks, Ivan Vegvary |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
I too think it's 42 volts that we'll see soon. Remember that it took
from the 1920's to about 1974 or 1980 to get electronics into cars except for the radio (and Cadillac's photomultiplier headlight dimmer). I heard that, along with 42 volts comes a combination starter/alternator built into the auto's flywheel. And electrically operated valves. One other big gain for higher voltages is that you loose less power in the wiring, particularly for the starter. Pete Stanaitis ---------------- Ivan Vegvary wrote: Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? Thanks, Ivan Vegvary |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message news:97Poj.33$f73.12@trndny08... Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? Thanks, Ivan Vegvary I think one of disadvantages of higher voltages is that it could be getting into the region where it would be a shock hazard under some conditions. Another is that even 24 volts is getting into the arc welding region where arcs are more likely to be sustained and more difficult to extinguish. A relative who is a Ford mechanic indicated that Ford has plans to use a high power 42-48 volt flywheel alternator and drive all accessories electrically, thus eliminating the belt drives. As an aside, the early Ford Model T used a flywheel alternator. Don Young |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 22:16:38 -0800, cavalamb himself
wrote: spaco wrote: I too think it's 42 volts that we'll see soon. Remember that it took from the 1920's to about 1974 or 1980 to get electronics into cars except for the radio (and Cadillac's photomultiplier headlight dimmer). I heard that, along with 42 volts comes a combination starter/alternator built into the auto's flywheel. And electrically operated valves. One other big gain for higher voltages is that you loose less power in the wiring, particularly for the starter. Pete Stanaitis ---------------- That big gain comes with an interesting drawback... 40+ volts DC is dangerous as all hell! Richard Which is why the 42 volt (36 nominal) system is being proposed instead of a 48volt nominal (54 volt charging) system.Anything over 40 volts (or is it 42? somewhere real close anyway) is no longer "low voltage" and ends up regulated much more stringently. I know 48 volt DC switches tend to have a short lifespan unless properly designed with arc blowout or VERY fast snap action. The advent of solid state high-power DC switching is making the 36/42 volt system almost feasible today. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 22:41:02 -0600, "Don Young"
wrote: "Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message news:97Poj.33$f73.12@trndny08... Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? Thanks, Ivan Vegvary I think one of disadvantages of higher voltages is that it could be getting into the region where it would be a shock hazard under some conditions. Another is that even 24 volts is getting into the arc welding region where arcs are more likely to be sustained and more difficult to extinguish. A relative who is a Ford mechanic indicated that Ford has plans to use a high power 42-48 volt flywheel alternator and drive all accessories electrically, thus eliminating the belt drives. As an aside, the early Ford Model T used a flywheel alternator. Don Young And this is when the hood will only open for the manufacturer certified technician. Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
#13
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
spaco wrote:
I too think it's 42 volts that we'll see soon. Remember that it took from the 1920's to about 1974 or 1980 to get electronics into cars except for the radio (and Cadillac's photomultiplier headlight dimmer). I heard that, along with 42 volts comes a combination starter/alternator built into the auto's flywheel. And electrically operated valves. One other big gain for higher voltages is that you loose less power in the wiring, particularly for the starter. Pete Stanaitis ---------------- That big gain comes with an interesting drawback... 40+ volts DC is dangerous as all hell! Richard |
#14
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 00:57:05 GMT, Bill Janssen wrote:
Ivan Vegvary wrote: Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? Thanks, Ivan Vegvary Autos are going to use 34 volts in a couple of years. They are being designed now. Bill K7NOM I read it was going to be 48 volts Gunner |
#15
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
there are a several reasons:
1. light bulbs - as you increase the voltage, filaments get thinner. Thin filaments cannot survive the vibration in a car for very long. Switching to LEDs which is happening now will eliminate this constraint, but it was in place for a long time 2. inertia - there's a lot of 12V stuff, costs $$ to change over 3. safety - above 24V, the electrical safety requirements are much more stringent 4. cost - relative cost of batteries and wire 5. other, such as cold starting versus jump starting, accessories, spare parts, etc "Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message news:97Poj.33$f73.12@trndny08... Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? Thanks, Ivan Vegvary -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#16
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 22:16:38 -0800, cavalamb himself wrote: spaco wrote: I too think it's 42 volts that we'll see soon. Remember that it took from the 1920's to about 1974 or 1980 to get electronics into cars except for the radio (and Cadillac's photomultiplier headlight dimmer). I heard that, along with 42 volts comes a combination starter/alternator built into the auto's flywheel. And electrically operated valves. One other big gain for higher voltages is that you loose less power in the wiring, particularly for the starter. Pete Stanaitis ---------------- That big gain comes with an interesting drawback... 40+ volts DC is dangerous as all hell! Richard Which is why the 42 volt (36 nominal) system is being proposed instead of a 48volt nominal (54 volt charging) system.Anything over 40 volts (or is it 42? somewhere real close anyway) is no longer "low voltage" and ends up regulated much more stringently. I know 48 volt DC switches tend to have a short lifespan unless properly designed with arc blowout or VERY fast snap action. The advent of solid state high-power DC switching is making the 36/42 volt system almost feasible today. All real good questions, Clare. Wish I had a valid answer or two... |
#17
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
If you think THAT is dangerous, how about this?
My neighbor is a volunteer firefighter. He recently told me that (at least some) of the new hybrids have 300 or 400 volt systems. They have been trained NOT to go near one of them that has caught fire or even put water on them for fear of being electrocuted! ----"Even if you hear then screaming", he says. So, to me, 42 volts doesn't sound that bad. Hey, what do you think of having 120 volts and 240 volts running around your house? Pete Stanaitis ---------------------- cavalamb himself wrote: spaco wrote: I too think it's 42 volts that we'll see soon. Remember that it took from the 1920's to about 1974 or 1980 to get electronics into cars except for the radio (and Cadillac's photomultiplier headlight dimmer). I heard that, along with 42 volts comes a combination starter/alternator built into the auto's flywheel. And electrically operated valves. One other big gain for higher voltages is that you loose less power in the wiring, particularly for the starter. Pete Stanaitis ---------------- That big gain comes with an interesting drawback... 40+ volts DC is dangerous as all hell! Richard |
#18
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
syoung wrote:
Bill Janssen wrote: Ivan Vegvary wrote: Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? Thanks, Ivan Vegvary Autos are going to use 34 volts in a couple of years. They are being designed now. Bill K7NOM Was supposed to 42 volts several years back - what happened? POSSIBLY: The NEC limit on "safe" voltage level. ????? ...lew... |
#19
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
spaco wrote:
I heard that, along with 42 volts comes a combination starter/alternator built into the auto's flywheel. Pete Stanaitis OH MY GOD!!! Not a "Dynastart" like my NSU Sport Ptinz had. :-) ...lew... |
#20
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
cavalamb himself wrote:
That big gain comes with an interesting drawback... 40+ volts DC is dangerous as all hell! Richard Isn't the NEC limit 30 volts? ...lew... |
#21
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
syoung wrote:
Bill Janssen wrote: Ivan Vegvary wrote: Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? Thanks, Ivan Vegvary Autos are going to use 34 volts in a couple of years. They are being designed now. Bill K7NOM Was supposed to 42 volts several years back - what happened? You are correct. I should have said 42 volts. Bill K7NOM |
#22
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
In article ,
Lew Hartswick wrote: syoung wrote: Bill Janssen wrote: Ivan Vegvary wrote: Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? Thanks, Ivan Vegvary Autos are going to use 34 volts in a couple of years. They are being designed now. Bill K7NOM Was supposed to 42 volts several years back - what happened? POSSIBLY: The NEC limit on "safe" voltage level. ????? Has to be at least 48 volts, or telephone wires would have to be handled as power, not signal, wires. And ring power on telephone lines is 100 volts 20 Hz riding on top of the -48 volts DC. One can measure the 48 volts across any telephone pair with no off-hook telephones. When a phone is taken off-hook, the voltage drops to about 6 volts. Phantom power in microphone circuits is also 48 volts DC. Joe Gwinn |
#23
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
On Feb 2, 3:23 pm, spaco wrote:
If you think THAT is dangerous, how about this? My neighbor is a volunteer firefighter. He recently told me that (at least some) of the new hybrids have 300 or 400 volt systems. They have been trained NOT to go near one of them that has caught fire or even put water on them for fear of being electrocuted! ----"Even if you hear then screaming", he says. So, to me, 42 volts doesn't sound that bad. Hey, what do you think of having 120 volts and 240 volts running around your house? Pete Stanaitis ---------------------- I am a bit surprised. In general firefighters try to disconnect the house power, but if they can't, hit the fire with lots of water. The water will pop the breakers, the firemen are wearing insulating boots, and if using a hose from a hydrant, are holding a grounded hose. Also a stream of water from a fire hose is not contiuous and does not conduct. Dan |
#24
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 23:25:38 -0800, Gunner
wrote: On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 00:57:05 GMT, Bill Janssen wrote: Ivan Vegvary wrote: Okay, so the switch from 6 volts to 12 volts (automobiles) was made to save copper and other benefits that I don't remember. Why, for the same reasons, are we not switching to 24 volts? I understand that a few military vehicles and commercial trucks are 24 volts. Why not our automobiles? Anybody know? Thanks, Ivan Vegvary Autos are going to use 34 volts in a couple of years. They are being designed now. Bill K7NOM I read it was going to be 48 volts Gunner Nope. 48 volts has not been in the running except in electric drive apps where even 96 and above have been used.. The scuttlebutt for the last several years has been 36/42 -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#25
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 01:06:20 -0800, cavalamb himself
wrote: clare at snyder.on.ca wrote: On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 22:16:38 -0800, cavalamb himself wrote: spaco wrote: I too think it's 42 volts that we'll see soon. Remember that it took from the 1920's to about 1974 or 1980 to get electronics into cars except for the radio (and Cadillac's photomultiplier headlight dimmer). I heard that, along with 42 volts comes a combination starter/alternator built into the auto's flywheel. And electrically operated valves. One other big gain for higher voltages is that you loose less power in the wiring, particularly for the starter. Pete Stanaitis ---------------- That big gain comes with an interesting drawback... 40+ volts DC is dangerous as all hell! Richard Which is why the 42 volt (36 nominal) system is being proposed instead of a 48volt nominal (54 volt charging) system.Anything over 40 volts (or is it 42? somewhere real close anyway) is no longer "low voltage" and ends up regulated much more stringently. I know 48 volt DC switches tend to have a short lifespan unless properly designed with arc blowout or VERY fast snap action. The advent of solid state high-power DC switching is making the 36/42 volt system almost feasible today. All real good questions, Clare. Wish I had a valid answer or two... I'm likely one of the few on this list who has both been an auto mechanic and built and driven his own electric car. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#26
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
On Feb 2, 3:23 pm, spaco wrote: If you think THAT is dangerous, how about this? My neighbor is a volunteer firefighter. He recently told me that (at least some) of the new hybrids have 300 or 400 volt systems. They have been trained NOT to go near one of them that has caught fire or even put water on them for fear of being electrocuted! ----"Even if you hear then screaming", he says. So, to me, 42 volts doesn't sound that bad. Hey, what do you think of having 120 volts and 240 volts running around your house? Pete Stanaitis If that 120 and 240 volts was DC instead of AC, I'd be VERY CONCERNED. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#27
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
wrote in message ... On Feb 2, 3:23 pm, spaco wrote: If you think THAT is dangerous, how about this? My neighbor is a volunteer firefighter. He recently told me that (at least some) of the new hybrids have 300 or 400 volt systems. They have been trained NOT to go near one of them that has caught fire or even put water on them for fear of being electrocuted! ----"Even if you hear then screaming", he says. So, to me, 42 volts doesn't sound that bad. Hey, what do you think of having 120 volts and 240 volts running around your house? Pete Stanaitis ---------------------- I am a bit surprised. In general firefighters try to disconnect the house power, but if they can't, hit the fire with lots of water. The water will pop the breakers, the firemen are wearing insulating boots, and if using a hose from a hydrant, are holding a grounded hose. Also a stream of water from a fire hose is not contiuous and does not conduct. Dan The training I've received on hybrid cars, SUV's and buses offered no such advice (don't go near). The primary tactical changes in dealing with hybrids concerned extrication techniques. IE: don't cut the orange wires, don't try to disconnect the power. As far as fire conditions go we now need to be concerned with the run off water due to acid/basic electrolyte volume & fumes. Also some time is spent on battery locations because the weights involved can affect the center of gravity and how you might stabilize the vehicle.(some hybrid buses have the batteries on the roof) Concerning electricity and structure fires we (my dept, others handle it different) list shutting off the power as a priority but it's not at the top of the list unless the power is the main problem... like the panel is on fire or the metal roof/siding is charged... as a rule we shut off the main breaker prior to overhaul and almost never pull meters, that gets left for the utility workers. Over the years more firefighters have gotten injured pulling meters then just fighting fires with the power on. In probie school our instructor told us fire boots will not protect from shock any better then a wet pair of sneakers and that electricity will only travel a few feet up a hose stream. I have been zapped but not often and I could always id the source.. like burned wires. About 2 months ago my ladder truck became entangled in the high tension primaries in front of a fire building lucky for us the ladder stopped on a well insulated section so the arc damage was minimal, I really would of hated to stand by and watch my NEW hook & ladder burn. We waited for the utility guys to come and shut off the juice. Andrew |
#28
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
"AndrewV" wrote:
our instructor told us fire boots will not protect from shock any better then a wet pair of sneakers and that electricity will only travel a few feet up a hose stream. I have been zapped but not often and I could always id the source.. like burned wires. About 2 months ago my ladder truck became I don't know about the boots, but the hose bit is bs IF you have a continuous stream and a complete path (such as a connection to a hydrant. It will travel the whole loop. If you have a discontinuous stream (as in broken up with air) It won't travel at all [Until you get to medium voltage] jk |
#29
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
clare wrote: I'm likely one of the few on this list who has both been an auto mechanic and built and driven his own electric car. I'd be real interested in hearing more about it. I built an electric car out of a friend's rusted-out VW bug. No way would it pass inspection, so it was for tinkering, only. I used a jet engine starter motor/generator, rated at 400 A 28 V continuous. I ran it from an armature supply of 48 v (4 90 AH trolling motor batteries). I had a switching regulator on the field supply. It ran suprisingly well, had LOTS of pep. One problem was the motor was real loud. I was trying to make a hybrid, and had a motorcycle engine that I'd brought out an extension from the crankshaft to a stratofortress generator (the smallest, lightest 400A 28 V electric machine you will EVER see!) My coupling was junk, and the inline-twin engine had uneven power strokes, so it was going to snap the shaft real soon. If I could get another stratofort generator, that might make a really fine drive scheme. I'd need some reduction gears, though. Jon |
#30
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Another Car Battery question
"jk" wrote in message ... "AndrewV" wrote: our instructor told us fire boots will not protect from shock any better then a wet pair of sneakers and that electricity will only travel a few feet up a hose stream. I have been zapped but not often and I could always id the source.. like burned wires. About 2 months ago my ladder truck became I don't know about the boots, but the hose bit is bs Well it could be, I don't know of any legit testing, but it was 15 yrs ago and at that point in my career I felt it unwise to argue with the Deputy Chief. I don't work with hoselines too often since I'm assigned to a truck company so I haven't given it much thought. I don't know anybody that's gotten zapped from a electrified hose line so in practice the stream must not make a good ground. About the boots I've seen rubber fireboots tested during a utility demo and if your the ground path its time for the dirtnap. IF you have a continuous stream and a complete path (such as a connection to a hydrant. It will travel the whole loop. If you have a discontinuous stream (as in broken up with air) It won't travel at all [Until you get to medium voltage] jk the path would likely be something like this: electrical source---water stream how solid it is depends on the type of nozzle and how far away it is---some amount of cotton jacket hose w/metal fittings every 50'-100' wet and laying on the ground ---fire pump on the engine prob have several other hoselines off and on the ground---body of the pump---5' rubber jacket feeder line--- hydrant. so it's not straight forward, if it made a good path I would think the pump operator would get a tingle from time to time. I just try to avoid the electrons if possible Andrew |
#31
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Another Car Battery question
spaco wrote: If you think THAT is dangerous, how about this? My neighbor is a volunteer firefighter. He recently told me that (at least some) of the new hybrids have 300 or 400 volt systems. They have been trained NOT to go near one of them that has caught fire or even put water on them for fear of being electrocuted! ----"Even if you hear then screaming", he says. So, to me, 42 volts doesn't sound that bad. Hey, what do you think of having 120 volts and 240 volts running around your house? They have an inertial interrupter that splits the battery system into two 150 V sets. That works like the inertial fuel cutoff switch that is on many cars today. So, is thes for real, that no rescues are to be performed on hybrids? You just let them burn, then tow the hulk to the junkyard with the skeletons inside? Or, is this an insane reaction by some higly misinformed fire chief who knows nothing about electricity except that it "can hurt you"? Since I consider myself to actually know something about electricity, I have REAL doubts anyone could get hurt spraying water on a burning hybrid car. It is a self-contained electrical system, so how the current could get back through the water spray is hard to imagine. Now, I CAN imagine how somebody extricating an accident victim from a smashed car could get hurt by touching the wrong thing, especially when using various extrication gear (saws, jaws of life, bolt cutters, etc.) But, that's part of why the inertial cutoff system is there. Jon |
#32
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Another Car Battery question
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:20:05 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:
clare wrote: I'm likely one of the few on this list who has both been an auto mechanic and built and driven his own electric car. I'd be real interested in hearing more about it. I built an electric car out of a friend's rusted-out VW bug. No way would it pass inspection, so it was for tinkering, only. I used a jet engine starter motor/generator, rated at 400 A 28 V continuous. I ran it from an armature supply of 48 v (4 90 AH trolling motor batteries). I had a switching regulator on the field supply. It ran suprisingly well, had LOTS of pep. One problem was the motor was real loud. I was trying to make a hybrid, and had a motorcycle engine that I'd brought out an extension from the crankshaft to a stratofortress generator (the smallest, lightest 400A 28 V electric machine you will EVER see!) My coupling was junk, and the inline-twin engine had uneven power strokes, so it was going to snap the shaft real soon. If I could get another stratofort generator, that might make a really fine drive scheme. I'd need some reduction gears, though. Jon Mine was a 1975 Fiat 128L Sport Coupe with first a 200 amp aircraft generator, later updated to a 400. Series aprallel switching (24/48) through a startup resistor of 16ga stainless steel ribbon, with a rheostat on the field for feild weakening. A drum switch handled the switching (using 200A contactors) and an industrial magnetic circuit breaker handled overload protection (with very good arc suppression). Ran 8 GC2H cart batteries. They were configured as a 24 volt pack for charging, using a charger from a Sebring Vanguard. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
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