On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 17:32:29 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Aug 17, 9:14 pm, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:
wrote in message

...



On Aug 17, 2:01 pm, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:
"Don Foreman" wrote in message

. ..

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 00:37:00 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

In my relentless efforts to make the County happy...I have to close
off one end of my carport.."no one driving by wants to look at those
ugly machines" (end exact verbal quote of lady inspector)

I scored a nice steel roll up door, was told it was 10' wide..but its
12' 5" wide x 7 feet tall.

The problem is...my carport is 11' 1.5" wide with a roof line that
tapers from 11' down to 7' 6'

http://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/Rollup

I know Im gonna have to cut it down in width..but the problem comes in
that the roll above the opening is about 15" in diameter...requireing
the opening at its smallest to be 8' 3" tall....and its only 7'6"

Now I can cut the door narrower..by about 3' to clear the tapering
roofline and making the rollup door about 9' wide, ...or I can mount
the roll on the OUTSIDE of the carport...letting the roll be above the
roofline on one end, and then box it in to hide the roll. Not gonna
be pretty..but.."the ugly machines wont be visible from the street"
and I can make the box out of OSB covered light square tubing, and
paint it to match the house.

Are there any bad downsides to doing this? Other than having a gap
that might have what little rain we have here (4" a year) run down the
inside of the door...... and I might be able to flash it a bit with
sheet metal

I Could lift the roofline the 9ish inches necessary to clear the
roll..but it would look really really wierd being done on one end..and
leave a wide gap above the rain gutter on that end for a few feet.

I put a 4x6 steel tube on the two 4" steel posts that follows the
roof line

http://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/Rollup

and lifting the roof metal would be really ugly at that point, plus I
will be putting in a matching bit of OSB to seal off the tapered
portion

Lastly..I could lower the roll, and give myself a door opening about
6' 5" tall, and put the roll inside. Given that Im 6'3+ in boots and
often wear a cowboy hat.......

In the pictures..the horizontal 2x4 is at 7' and is only there to be a
common reference point as "grade" has a slight angle down to the
building. The lot is low at the rear..and at the left side....the
roofline is almost 3' higher above ground at the rear end....sigh

The bottom of the 2x4 is where the bottom of the "box" hiding the roll
would be and the box would be full width and would cross below the
roof line at about 4' to the left of the right hand post..about 17" x
17" in cross section and extend a bit past both posts.

What to do..what to do????

Gunner, who has to put this up Sunday...

You have a bunch of inferred requirements in there, including a
schedule deadline of Sunday (today).

The reason for doing it is to provide visual concealment to satify the
county ... right? So mount the thing like a windowshade in front of
the opening, nevermind whether it fits or is raintight. All the
county requires is a screen -- and you've gotten along so far with
nothing but an open hole there. Right?

And don't forget to put pictures of nekkid wimmin on the front doing
disgusting things. Refer to US Constitution for justification.

Steve

My first inclination would be to argue with the county that "Beauty is
in the eye of the beholder".

Mentally of course be prepared to make some changes... I like the idea
of a bedsheet curtain across the middle of the carport. Or just toss
some camouflage tarpaulin over it. Ugly machinery indeed. All
machinery is beautiful if it functions as required in a minimalist
sort of way. Otherwise it is an ornament or statue to wastefulness.

How about a sign in front of the carport with the admonition "Looking
This Way Verboten; County Deems Ugly".

If you really want ugly look at some of "modern art".

If the roll-up door is strictly to appease the county lady I wouldn't
do it... What is next? The colour scheme of your house and car clash?

Writing a few letters is a lot less effort that putting up that
door :-)).

Wolfgang

We have a local rowdy. I haven't lived here long enough to know the whole
story, but he has a auto scrap yard on a main thoroughfare in town. There
is a sign up there that says, " IF YOU WANT TO KILL YOUR BUSINESS, JUST MOVE
IT TO LAVERKIN. THE CITY COUNCIL WILL DO IT FOR YOU." He also has stuff up
about the United Nations and stuff. The place is clearly a dump. Lots of
wrecks that look like they were ran over by a semi, then hit by a
locomotive, then went over a cliff. If there were any salvageable parts,
it's only metal. And there are clearly many more hulks there than
customers. BUT, he stays in the lines, having everything sorted and
stacked, and on his property, much to the dismay of the council.

Gunner, learn the lines and stay within them. Most of the time, the lines
are able to be stretched immensely if you know them.

A neighbor complained about a travel trailer I had parked on the side of the
house. Zoning said I had to move it, as it was on dirt. In front of my
house, it is concrete, and zoning wise an acceptable part of a yard on which
to park a travel trailer. So, I moved it in FRONT of my house on the
concrete driveway, directly across the street from Mr. Nosy. He called in
again, and was quoted the law. Since a report had been made I could NOT
move it back over to the dirt strip where it would have made everyone happy.
I sold it about two months later, but I had two months of laughing at an
idiot who didn't know when it was better to just shut the **** up.

The zoning guy was nice, and we had a chuckle at the neighbor.

Steve


Interesting comment re.: zoning/bylaws. I have had to deal with by-
law enforcement people in my town (neighbour bitched about my privacy
fence) on a privacy issue. I approached them politely with some
questions and they were most helpful with advice, and with some
insight into what they would look for. By and large they would
enforce the by-laws if infractions were visible from the street.

They also told me that hedges are utterly and completely exempt from
any fencing restrictions:-)).

Within 5 years we grew a beautiful 10' high juniper sky rocket hedge.

Gunner: My comments were, of course, a little tongue-in-cheek. You
are closest to the action and must decide what are reasonable
requests. Bending a little will earn you kudos when you have a
legitimate complaint. Its just that installing that door sounds like
a lot of grief for 'nice to look at'.

Anyways, good luck with your 'local improvement initiative'. Hey,
that sounds like federal money may be available here!!!

Wolfgang


I suspect that Fed money is at the heart of everything. In a dying
town...they want every dollar they can get.

GUnner

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those
who in times of great moral crisis maintain their neutrality",
John F. Kennedy.

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Sun, 17 Aug 2008 13:55:03 -0700
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 12:35:52 -0700, JR North
wrote:

I hope you filed a complaint with the County, demanding the Lady
Inspector cover up her fat calfs and bad complexion, which I'm sure no
one wants to look at either.
JR
Dweller in the cellar


Chuckle..the old inspector..when he started going around and letting
people know that they were goinna start tightening up..rode around for
3 months with an armed female deputy as backup.

Folks here didnt take kindly to them pushing their weight around too
hard..in fact..its been said that he was taken off the case and a
grandmother type put on the case because of the residents taking not
too kindly to him...and his body guard.

Got to watch them Grandmother types. They may appear all sweet
and 'harmless' - but they're Grandmothers. They've got kids older
than you, and they don't take lip from them either!

Shrug
Its an odd area...and a heavily armed one.

If only it wasn't in California.
--
pyotr filipivich
"I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed
over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender
whether they served zombies he said, ‘Sure, what'll you have?'"
from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 23:25:44 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Gunner Asch quickly quoth:

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 18:02:57 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:
I meant home-brew 2'-wide-panel accordians (with scrap steel and scrap
door hinges). Well, I guess the fiberglass roofing would set you back
a Benjy, so settle for white-painted scrap corrugated roofing.


If she who must enforce the code bitches..I may well do just that. So
far..Im only out a little welding rod and a few bags of sackcrete and
a couple gallons of gas.

That's awfully hard to beat.


Ive got to cut 11" off the door and move the spool and wind up spring,
got the framework and hangers up. Not going to be easy moving the
windup spring assembly on one end..its welded on, so will have to
grind out the welds, move everything over 11", reweld, etc etc..then
cut 11" off one edge of the door. I thought about cutting 5.5" off
each end but after I saw what was involved..said ****it.

Grok that. It's too bad your neighbor would notice a bend in his fence
or you could have simply made room and put 'er up. vbg


Ive got to have the ex at surgery at 5am Monday morning..so will put
off cutting it down till tommorow, else Id do an all nighter and
finish it up before sunup. Shrug

Oy, vay. Best of luck to boafaya.

(To those of you in Rio Linda, that means "both of you." And if some
still didn't understand that, see http://tinyurl.com/6pbchf

--
It is pretty hard to tell what does bring happiness;
poverty and wealth have both failed.
-- Kin Hubbard

You also might want to consider planting a "green screen". If your
neighbors or the drive by inspectors cant see your stuff they have no

Gunner gets 4" rain a year.

On Aug 18, 10:04 pm, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


Gunner gets 4" rain a year.

4 inches a year! - such wealth!

Andrew VK3BFA.

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote: (clip) PS: Said coach doesn't have aluminum
wiring, does it? And if it
does, you *have* had it all pigtailed, right?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'd like to know more about pigtailing. Is it what it sounds like: putting
copper "pigtails" on the ends of the aluminum wire? Is this an accepted
fix?

wrote:

On Aug 18, 10:04 pm, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


Gunner gets 4" rain a year.

4 inches a year! - such wealth!


Heh! It looks like I'll be getting that much per hour, tomorrow, as
T.S. Fay passes my area.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

You could get 100s of guys to write to the county commenting on the improved
appearance of your place due to the machinery present.

=)

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
In my relentless efforts to make the County happy...I have to close
off one end of my carport.."no one driving by wants to look at those
ugly machines" (end exact verbal quote of lady inspector)

I scored a nice steel roll up door, was told it was 10' wide..but its
12' 5" wide x 7 feet tall.

The problem is...my carport is 11' 1.5" wide with a roof line that
tapers from 11' down to 7' 6'

http://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/Rollup

I know Im gonna have to cut it down in width..but the problem comes in
that the roll above the opening is about 15" in diameter...requireing
the opening at its smallest to be 8' 3" tall....and its only 7'6"

Now I can cut the door narrower..by about 3' to clear the tapering
roofline and making the rollup door about 9' wide, ...or I can mount
the roll on the OUTSIDE of the carport...letting the roll be above the
roofline on one end, and then box it in to hide the roll. Not gonna
be pretty..but.."the ugly machines wont be visible from the street"
and I can make the box out of OSB covered light square tubing, and
paint it to match the house.

Are there any bad downsides to doing this? Other than having a gap
that might have what little rain we have here (4" a year) run down the
inside of the door...... and I might be able to flash it a bit with
sheet metal

I Could lift the roofline the 9ish inches necessary to clear the
roll..but it would look really really wierd being done on one end..and
leave a wide gap above the rain gutter on that end for a few feet.

I put a 4x6 steel tube on the two 4" steel posts that follows the
roof line

http://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/Rollup

and lifting the roof metal would be really ugly at that point, plus I
will be putting in a matching bit of OSB to seal off the tapered
portion

Lastly..I could lower the roll, and give myself a door opening about
6' 5" tall, and put the roll inside. Given that Im 6'3+ in boots and
often wear a cowboy hat.......

In the pictures..the horizontal 2x4 is at 7' and is only there to be a
common reference point as "grade" has a slight angle down to the
building. The lot is low at the rear..and at the left side....the
roofline is almost 3' higher above ground at the rear end....sigh

The bottom of the 2x4 is where the bottom of the "box" hiding the roll
would be and the box would be full width and would cross below the
roof line at about 4' to the left of the right hand post..about 17" x
17" in cross section and extend a bit past both posts.

What to do..what to do????

Gunner, who has to put this up Sunday...





The hottest places in hell are reserved for those
who in times of great moral crisis maintain their neutrality",
John F. Kennedy.

I love this stuff.

municipalities around here have zoning rules about signs, so lots of guys
just mount the signs on top of legal automobiles and park them anywhere it
is legal to park.

The new thing is old Uhaul trucks with billboards on the side, again, parked
anywhere it is legal to park.

On any given day you'll see 3 of em at wal-mart


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
In my relentless efforts to make the County happy...I have to close
off one end of my carport.."no one driving by wants to look at those
ugly machines" (end exact verbal quote of lady inspector)

I scored a nice steel roll up door, was told it was 10' wide..but its
12' 5" wide x 7 feet tall.

The problem is...my carport is 11' 1.5" wide with a roof line that
tapers from 11' down to 7' 6'

http://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/Rollup

I know Im gonna have to cut it down in width..but the problem comes in
that the roll above the opening is about 15" in diameter...requireing
the opening at its smallest to be 8' 3" tall....and its only 7'6"

Now I can cut the door narrower..by about 3' to clear the tapering
roofline and making the rollup door about 9' wide, ...or I can mount
the roll on the OUTSIDE of the carport...letting the roll be above the
roofline on one end, and then box it in to hide the roll. Not gonna
be pretty..but.."the ugly machines wont be visible from the street"
and I can make the box out of OSB covered light square tubing, and
paint it to match the house.

Are there any bad downsides to doing this? Other than having a gap
that might have what little rain we have here (4" a year) run down the
inside of the door...... and I might be able to flash it a bit with
sheet metal

I Could lift the roofline the 9ish inches necessary to clear the
roll..but it would look really really wierd being done on one end..and
leave a wide gap above the rain gutter on that end for a few feet.

I put a 4x6 steel tube on the two 4" steel posts that follows the
roof line

http://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/Rollup

and lifting the roof metal would be really ugly at that point, plus I
will be putting in a matching bit of OSB to seal off the tapered
portion

Lastly..I could lower the roll, and give myself a door opening about
6' 5" tall, and put the roll inside. Given that Im 6'3+ in boots and
often wear a cowboy hat.......

In the pictures..the horizontal 2x4 is at 7' and is only there to be a
common reference point as "grade" has a slight angle down to the
building. The lot is low at the rear..and at the left side....the
roofline is almost 3' higher above ground at the rear end....sigh

The bottom of the 2x4 is where the bottom of the "box" hiding the roll
would be and the box would be full width and would cross below the
roof line at about 4' to the left of the right hand post..about 17" x
17" in cross section and extend a bit past both posts.

What to do..what to do????

Gunner, who has to put this up Sunday...





The hottest places in hell are reserved for those
who in times of great moral crisis maintain their neutrality",
John F. Kennedy.

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 07:04:31 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Karl Townsend" quickly quoth:


You also might want to consider planting a "green screen". If your
neighbors or the drive by inspectors cant see your stuff they have no

Gunner gets 4" rain a year.

That's during a strong El Niño. Other years drip less.

http://ggweather.com/enso/calenso.htm

--
It is pretty hard to tell what does bring happiness;
poverty and wealth have both failed.
-- Kin Hubbard

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 18:03:44 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 07:04:31 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Karl Townsend" quickly quoth:


You also might want to consider planting a "green screen". If your
neighbors or the drive by inspectors cant see your stuff they have no

Gunner gets 4" rain a year.

That's during a strong El Niño. Other years drip less.

http://ggweather.com/enso/calenso.htm


There is sometimes a wet fog.....shrug


The hottest places in hell are reserved for those
who in times of great moral crisis maintain their neutrality",
John F. Kennedy.

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:35:33 GMT, "Leo Lichtman" wrote:
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

(clip) PS: Said coach doesn't have aluminum wiring, does it?
And if it does, you *have* had it all pigtailed, right?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'd like to know more about pigtailing. Is it what it sounds like: putting
copper "pigtails" on the ends of the aluminum wire? Is this an accepted
fix?

IF it is done with the proper equipment and techniques, that is the
accepted and legal way to fix the problem.

They have to open up every single receptacle, light, switch, and
splice box in the entire coach, and if some dummy installed the
furnace or water heater in front of a box it has to come out. And
they have to practically tear the joint apart to search - If they miss
just one splice box, guess where the trouble will start...

The first step is to take notes of how it's all connected in the box
you are working on. (This step is quite important, you want things to
work when you are done...) ;-)

Take all the existing splice connections apart, strip back the wire
to clean aluminum with no stripping nicks, then scrub it with Noalox
and an aluminum brush. Then they take 1' pre-cuts of THHN/THWN copper
wire and crimp them on with special barrel splice connectors and a
special battery operated crimping tool from TYCO/Amphenol.

Then they insulate the crimp splice with the heavy heat-shrink
tubing with a bit of hot-melt glue inside as a sealant. Tuck it all
into the back into the box, and then make the connections to the
receptacle or light switch with the copper wire.

The tools are Not Cheap and they only sell or lease them to
contractors who go to the Midwest (Cleveland?) and take a two day
training course. Same falderol with only selling the supplies to
authorized installers, unless there's a distributor that develops
"temporary amnesia" - but if anything went wrong their asses would be
in a sling. I looked into getting the stuff, but if you don't do it
all day every day it wouldn't pay. And I don't.

The other legal way is special Purple CO/ALR wirenuts with double
springs to maintain tension, and they are pre-filled with Noalox
compound. But they are over $1 wholesale each even in bulk (I carry a
25 pack) so you don't want to use hundreds of them, and they are
larger than the usual wirenuts so they fill boxes fast. But they are
the only option for working with aluminum house wiring.

Unless you want to strip open the interior walls and ceilings of the
coach or house and re-rope it all with Copper Romex - which might be a
viable choice if large portions of the paneling has gone to crap, or
you know the exterior walls aren't insulated properly.

-- Bruce --

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote: (clip) The tools are Not Cheap and they only
sell or lease them to
contractors who go to the Midwest (Cleveland?) and take a two day
training course. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I had the idea of silver soldering copper pigtails to the aluminum wire and
then shrinkwrapping. Assuming that the torch technique doesn't mess up the
aluminum insulation too much (strip back far enough, in and out quickly with
the heat, Vise-grip heat sink on the aluminum wire and maybe use a squirt
bottle to cool) do you think it has possibilities?

On 2008-08-19, Bruce L Bergman wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:35:33 GMT, "Leo Lichtman" wrote:
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

(clip) PS: Said coach doesn't have aluminum wiring, does it?
And if it does, you *have* had it all pigtailed, right?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'd like to know more about pigtailing. Is it what it sounds like: putting
copper "pigtails" on the ends of the aluminum wire? Is this an accepted
fix?

IF it is done with the proper equipment and techniques, that is the
accepted and legal way to fix the problem.

[ ... ]

Take all the existing splice connections apart, strip back the wire
to clean aluminum with no stripping nicks, then scrub it with Noalox
and an aluminum brush. Then they take 1' pre-cuts of THHN/THWN copper
wire and crimp them on with special barrel splice connectors and a
special battery operated crimping tool from TYCO/Amphenol.

Lots of useful information snipped. Thanks!

Just one minor nit here. The crimper/connector company which
was absorbed by TYCO is "AMP" not "Amphenol". Amphenol also makes
connectors (and has for years), many with crimp insert terminals, but
also many with solder cup terminals. AMP, the best of my knowledge, has
always made only connectors with crimp insert terminals.

IIRC, "AMP" originally stood for "American Molded Phenol", and
Amphenol does sound very similar -- but they are a different company.
Amphenol (and Cannon) made the MS (Mil Standard) series connectors,
while all by AMP have been their own design, except for commodity things
like the DB-25 connectors used for RS-232.

I've been collecting *good* crimpers and crimp terminals for
years -- since about the late 1960s IIRC, and among other things now
have the crimpers (and most of the ring terminals) from 28 Ga wire up to
4/0. Everything from 8 Ga up through 4/0 is hydraulically powered, the
smaller ones are simple compound leverage ones with ratchets controlling
travel so you *have* to complete a crimp cycle before you can open your
crimper.

Your battery operated ones are likely to be a battery powering a
built-in hydraulic pump, since a worm screw would be likely to wear and
produce a looser crimp over the years. I've not seen the ones you are
talking about -- but would like to. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:42:29 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:


"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote: (clip) The tools are Not Cheap and they only
sell or lease them to
contractors who go to the Midwest (Cleveland?) and take a two day
training course. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I had the idea of silver soldering copper pigtails to the aluminum wire and
then shrinkwrapping. Assuming that the torch technique doesn't mess up the
aluminum insulation too much (strip back far enough, in and out quickly with
the heat, Vise-grip heat sink on the aluminum wire and maybe use a squirt
bottle to cool) do you think it has possibilities?

Dont. Even. Think. About. It.

If you don't stick with approved methods and materials, *after* the
fire they will tear the place apart looking for the point of origin.

The investigators will find your handiwork in the area that burned,
and can easily take apart another box at the other end of the house to
see an unburned example. And then there will be much displeasure -
Your homeowners policy could easily decide to not pay to rebuild the
house, and you don't want that. Especially since the bank still wants
that last 15 or 20 years of payments.

It's not a bad idea, though you would have big problems with cooked
insulation because aluminum is too good a heat conductor. You'd have
to be lightning fast and I know how easily it is (NOT) to get aluminum
clean enough to wet with the tin or silver. You'll be concentrating
on getting the end tinned and the cooked insulation could easily
extend back outside the box before you see it and can react, making a
huge mess to fix.

When they make tinned aluminum busbars or wire, it's done with bare
bar stock or bare wire - they add the insulation later.

-- Bruce --

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:42:29 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:


"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote: (clip) The tools are Not Cheap and they only
sell or lease them to
contractors who go to the Midwest (Cleveland?) and take a two day
training course. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I had the idea of silver soldering copper pigtails to the aluminum wire and
then shrinkwrapping. Assuming that the torch technique doesn't mess up the
aluminum insulation too much (strip back far enough, in and out quickly with
the heat, Vise-grip heat sink on the aluminum wire and maybe use a squirt
bottle to cool) do you think it has possibilities?

Dont. Even. Think. About. It.

If you don't stick with approved methods and materials, *after* the
fire they will tear the place apart looking for the point of origin.

The investigators will find your handiwork in the area that burned,
and can easily take apart another box at the other end of the house to
see an unburned example. And then there will be much displeasure -
Your homeowners policy could easily decide to not pay to rebuild the
house, and you don't want that. Especially since the bank still wants
that last 15 or 20 years of payments.

It's not a bad idea, though you would have big problems with cooked
insulation because aluminum is too good a heat conductor. You'd have
to be lightning fast and I know how easily it is (NOT) to get aluminum
clean enough to wet with the tin or silver. You'll be concentrating
on getting the end tinned and the cooked insulation could easily
extend back outside the box before you see it and can react, making a
huge mess to fix.

When they make tinned aluminum busbars or wire, it's done with bare
bar stock or bare wire - they add the insulation later.

-- Bruce --


There is a guy on news:rec.antiques.radio+phono who bragged about his
half assed method, and that he doesn't have to comply, because he owns
the rental houses. We tried to explain to him why it was wrong, but as
always, everyone else in the universe is a drooling moron, and anyone
who doesn't kiss his ass gets nasty e-mails. One fire, or even worse,
one death will bankrupt him, and family members that have rental houses
in their names.


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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:44:36 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

snip

It's not a bad idea, though you would have big problems with cooked
insulation because aluminum is too good a heat conductor. You'd have
to be lightning fast and I know how easily it is (NOT) to get aluminum
clean enough to wet with the tin or silver. You'll be concentrating
on getting the end tinned and the cooked insulation could easily
extend back outside the box before you see it and can react, making a
huge mess to fix.



On the contrary. Aluminium is a lousy heat conductor (at least, compared with
the copper that would be the other end of the pigtail). A properly
manufactured heat shunt clamped on an inch or two away from the joint,
depending on wire gauge, will prevent damage to the insulation further away.



Mark Rand
RTFM

"Mark Rand" wrote: On the contrary. Aluminium is a lousy heat conductor
(at least, compared with
the copper that would be the other end of the pigtail). A properly
manufactured heat shunt clamped on an inch or two away from the joint,
depending on wire gauge, will prevent damage to the insulation further
away.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think "lousy" is too strong a term. Aluminum is a better conductor than
most other metals, but worse than copper. For some reason that physicists
can probably explain, thermal and electrical conductivity go hand in hand.
But I am sure that a split block of copper, properly grooved, and clamped on
the aluminum wire could protect the insulation.

Bruce, I am not suggesting that anyone go ahead and apply pigtails based on
my suggestion. If I were going to do it, I would experiment with the
technique at the bench. I am convinced that someone that is used to torch
brazing and soldering could make it work. I consider the insurance question
is important, but secondary. If I had any idea that the technique might
start a fire, I would not try it--no one wants to lose a house, with or
without insurance.

As an aside, if someone were inept enough to burn or melt the insulation,
and tried to put the wiring in service anyway, the result would likely be a
short to ground, or less likely, wire to wire. This would blow a breaker,
not start a fire.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 21:59:37 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:


"Mark Rand" wrote: On the contrary. Aluminium is a lousy heat conductor
(at least, compared with
the copper that would be the other end of the pigtail). A properly
manufactured heat shunt clamped on an inch or two away from the joint,
depending on wire gauge, will prevent damage to the insulation further
away.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think "lousy" is too strong a term. Aluminum is a better conductor than
most other metals, but worse than copper. For some reason that physicists
can probably explain, thermal and electrical conductivity go hand in hand.
But I am sure that a split block of copper, properly grooved, and clamped on
the aluminum wire could protect the insulation.

Bruce, I am not suggesting that anyone go ahead and apply pigtails based on
my suggestion. If I were going to do it, I would experiment with the
technique at the bench. I am convinced that someone that is used to torch
brazing and soldering could make it work. I consider the insurance question
is important, but secondary. If I had any idea that the technique might
start a fire, I would not try it--no one wants to lose a house, with or
without insurance.

As an aside, if someone were inept enough to burn or melt the insulation,
and tried to put the wiring in service anyway, the result would likely be a
short to ground, or less likely, wire to wire. This would blow a breaker,
not start a fire.

As one of the first in the area to use Aluminium wire, I worked very
closely with the electrical inspection authority. The fact that the
inspector was fully aware that I did not have any form of trade
certificate probably got even closer scrutiny. the only flack I ever
got was from the city building inspector who was frustrated in his
effort to issue a $25.00 city business licence due to the fact that he
couldn't fill the space with a trade certificate number - his
solution? "Don't wire any more houses in my jurisdiction!"

When I encounter Aluminium wire, I replace it, end of discussion.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:29:19 -0400, Gerald Miller
wrote:

When I encounter Aluminium wire, I replace it, end of discussion.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Just remember, it's okay to use on single-point circuits like from
the main panel to the AC Disconnect or the range, where it has been
properly treated and uses rated compression lugs.

And when you start going long distances it's a LOT less money than
copper - if you aren't paying the bill, you don't get to choose.

But no multi-point AL wire for receptacles and light circuits.

-- Bruce --