Won this on ebay. This backplate should fit my lathe. It did not cost
much, so I am sure that I can use it for various purposes, whatever
they might be.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=190239479425

And my question is, how hard is it to find a 5C collet adaptor/chuck
that would fit this, perhaps with some machining. I am not sure what
is the exact name of the thing that I would be looking for. "plain
back 5C chuck" or something?

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http://www.totalcnctools.com/item.ph...cqIgodkxTO AQ

Or watch ebay.

Karl

On 2008-07-31, Karl Townsend wrote:
http://www.totalcnctools.com/item.ph...cqIgodkxTO AQ

Or watch ebay.

That is a very scary item, with legal consequences: ``Can be sued on
lathe and grinding machines''.

seriously, thanks.

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On 2008-07-31, Ignoramus25244 wrote:
Won this on ebay. This backplate should fit my lathe. It did not cost
much, so I am sure that I can use it for various purposes, whatever
they might be.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=190239479425

And my question is, how hard is it to find a 5C collet adaptor/chuck
that would fit this, perhaps with some machining. I am not sure what
is the exact name of the thing that I would be looking for. "plain
back 5C chuck" or something?

Bison makes one -- actually two. One with rigid coupling to the
backplate and one with the adjust-true feature.

I think that you can at least turn the step on the backplate
down to fit the Bison 5C collet chuck -- but I find myself wondering
*why*? A L1 spindle nose is certainly large enough to have sufficient
spindle bore to accept an adaptor and a drawtube -- ideally a lever
closing drawbar for convenience.

The collet chucks have three major disadvantages and one minor
in my opinion which is why they are normally used only on lathes with
too small a spindle bore to accept a drawtube style closer.

1) The extension takes up some of the distance between the spindle
nose and the tailstock center or drill chuck.

2) Because of that extension, there is less rigidity.

3) The runout is typically worse on this than on a proper
adaptor -- especially if you don't get an adjust-tru style
collet chuck.

4) (minor disadvantage) -- it takes an amazing number of turns of
the key to change one collet for another.

However -- if you *really* want the collet chuck, one place which
carried them (and from which I have bought Bison chucks and backplates
in the past), let's see what they have at the moment:

URL: http://www.brassandtool.com/Chucks-Collet.html

7-862-0501 5 inch 3/64 to 1 1/8 10 lbs. $ 350.00 (backplate mount)
7-862-0505 5 inch 3/64 to 1 1/8 12 lbs. $ 495.00 (set-true -- you'l
have to modify the backplate
quite a bit more.)

There is also one for 16-C which would be a better ftt for the
backplate which you have, but 16-C collets -- while they hold a lot
larger workpiece, are much more expensive. 5C can be dirt cheap because
they are so common.

On this page:

http://www.brassandtool.com/Backplate-Adaptors.html

you can find your backplate:

7-879-083 8 inch L1 $ 150.00

While they have direct-mount versions of the collet chuck, there
is none for any of the L series spindle noses, and certainly none for as
large a spindle as the L2 -- because the spindle chuck is really a poor
choice for such a large lathe. It is intended to adapt small lathes to
being able to use 5C collets, and is normally not needed for one as
large as you have.

Enjoy,
DoN.

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Don, maybe you are right. Can you point me to an example of a 5C
drawtube system?

i

Don, maybe you are right. Can you point me to an example of a 5C
drawtube system?

Search eBay for collet closer. There are several, I just looked. You'll most
likely PAY to get one for your lathe. Maybe more than your purshase price.
But DoN is right, they are nice.

Karl

On 2008-08-01, Ignoramus25244 wrote:
Don, maybe you are right. Can you point me to an example of a 5C
drawtube system?

Well ... for an *example* -- there is what came with my
Clausing. A lever at the outboard end of the headstock which operates
some levers in a hub to pull the collet in firmly as you operate the
lever, and it works through a bearing so the hub can rotate without the
lever needing to rotate. Connected to the hub is a tube with an OD of
1-1/4" (on mine -- needs a 1-3/8 bore through the spindle -- yours will
handle larger pieces. The tube is hollow, and the end nearest the
spindle nose has a female thread to match the outer thread on the end of
the collets. The ID must be large enough to pass a 1" diameter
workpiece through the spindle. The collets will handle up to 1-1/2"
stock -- but only short pieces for sizes over 1" diameter. 1" and
smaller will pass all the way through.

At the spindle nose end, there is an adaptor which is a piece of
precision hardened steel with a ground finish which fits into the taper
of the spindle (in my case Morse taper 4-1/2 -- probably MT-5 or larger
for your spindle), with a hole which is a slip fit for the cylindrical
part of the collet (and with a pin to keep the collet from rotating in
the adapter while you're tightening it. The outboard end of the adaptor
has a flange a bit larger than the small end of your L1 spindle nose, so
a protector which mounts on the taper can be used for extracting the
adaptor when you want to put a chuck back on the spindle.

So -- you put on the nose protector, slap in the nose adaptor
(which fits the spindle's internal taper), feed the collet through the
nose adaptor, and screw the drawtube onto it (by rotating the hub) until
a movement of the lever will firmly grip stock in the collet. Then you
flip an item projecting from the hub so it engages notches in the piece
permanently attached to the outboard end of the spindle. (This looks
like a gear with very shallow teeth, and there may be one on your
spindle already.)

The length of the drawtube needs to match the spindle. When I
converted my spindle from the original 2-1/4x8 thread to an L-00, I had
to make a 1" long extension piece for the drawtube -- one external
thread to match the internal at the end of the drawtube and a matching
internal thread to accept the collets.

Now -- what I have described is a lever collet closer, which is
nicer for production operations, but there are also ones with a bearing
and a handwheel on the outboard end of the spindle, which you just screw
onto the collet to tighten it, and unscrew to loosen. Not bad, but not
as nice as the lever style.

So -- first you'll need to verify what the internal taper is on
your spindle. MT-5 is a first guess, but maybe larger. Then you'll
need the overall length of the spindle. Then you'll need to either
order what you need, or to make your own or find one on eBay and adapt
it. The length can be fixed, so one for a shorter spindle can be made
to work.

I had to order a new nosepiece and protector from Royal when I
got my L-00 spindle -- but I understand that Royal no longer sells these
for anything but CNC machines these days. (Scott Logan - is that
right?)

The handwheel type is fairly easy to build, if you can get some
tube which will fit loosely in the spindle, and which you can internally
thread to match the collet thread. The lever system is quite a bit more
complex, and it is easier to find and adapt one than to make one from
scratch without one to examine.

Haunt e-Bay with the Morse taper and spindle bore and length
measurements and you will eventually find one.

Maybe others can point you to someone who still makes them for
manual machines.

Enjoy,
DoN.

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On 1 Aug 2008 04:23:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2008-08-01, Ignoramus25244 wrote:
Don, maybe you are right. Can you point me to an example of a 5C
drawtube system?

big snip
I had to order a new nosepiece and protector from Royal when I
got my L-00 spindle -- but I understand that Royal no longer sells these
for anything but CNC machines these days. (Scott Logan - is that
right?)

The handwheel type is fairly easy to build, if you can get some
tube which will fit loosely in the spindle, and which you can internally
thread to match the collet thread. The lever system is quite a bit more
complex, and it is easier to find and adapt one than to make one from
scratch without one to examine.

Haunt e-Bay with the Morse taper and spindle bore and length
measurements and you will eventually find one.

Maybe others can point you to someone who still makes them for
manual machines.

Enjoy,
DoN.

What DoN said. I made my own handwheel type, including the protector.
I made the handwheel from aluminum plate, used an aircraft torque tube
ball bearing for the thrust bearing, and a tube of almost perfect
dimensions of 4140, just had to thread the ends. However, I didn't
get the performance I wanted (runout) until I replaced the homemade
adapter with one from Royal. Just tell Royal the exact model of your
lathe and they'll tell you what adapter. As a bonus, you'll find out
what your headstock taper is. Mine wound up being a shortened MT5.
Good luck.

Pete Keillor

"Pete Keillor" wrote in message
...
On 1 Aug 2008 04:23:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2008-08-01, Ignoramus25244 wrote:
Don, maybe you are right. Can you point me to an example of a 5C
drawtube system?

big snip
I had to order a new nosepiece and protector from Royal when I
got my L-00 spindle -- but I understand that Royal no longer sells these
for anything but CNC machines these days. (Scott Logan - is that
right?)

The handwheel type is fairly easy to build, if you can get some
tube which will fit loosely in the spindle, and which you can internally
thread to match the collet thread. The lever system is quite a bit more
complex, and it is easier to find and adapt one than to make one from
scratch without one to examine.

Haunt e-Bay with the Morse taper and spindle bore and length
measurements and you will eventually find one.

Maybe others can point you to someone who still makes them for
manual machines.

Enjoy,
DoN.

What DoN said. I made my own handwheel type, including the protector.
I made the handwheel from aluminum plate, used an aircraft torque tube
ball bearing for the thrust bearing, and a tube of almost perfect
dimensions of 4140, just had to thread the ends. However, I didn't
get the performance I wanted (runout) until I replaced the homemade
adapter with one from Royal. Just tell Royal the exact model of your
lathe and they'll tell you what adapter. As a bonus, you'll find out
what your headstock taper is. Mine wound up being a shortened MT5.
Good luck.

Get ready for the sticker shock at Royal. iirc, about $1500 for a complete
snap-handle system, depending depending.

I have two machines with these snap handles/draw tubes, a Clausing
Colchester and an Enco, both 13". The Enco is actually pretty nice bec it
has cam lock chucks, making the swap real easy. The CC req's a big-assed
spanner wrench, and is a real pita.

Snap handles are very nice, but are more for production. For prototyping,
the Bison collet chuck deal Karl showed seems unbeatable for the price,
altho mounting it will certainly require some care.
--
DT



Pete Keillor

On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 07:44:33 -0400, "DrollTroll"
wrote:


"Pete Keillor" wrote in message
.. .
On 1 Aug 2008 04:23:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2008-08-01, Ignoramus25244 wrote:
Don, maybe you are right. Can you point me to an example of a 5C
drawtube system?

big snip
I had to order a new nosepiece and protector from Royal when I
got my L-00 spindle -- but I understand that Royal no longer sells these
for anything but CNC machines these days. (Scott Logan - is that
right?)

The handwheel type is fairly easy to build, if you can get some
tube which will fit loosely in the spindle, and which you can internally
thread to match the collet thread. The lever system is quite a bit more
complex, and it is easier to find and adapt one than to make one from
scratch without one to examine.

Haunt e-Bay with the Morse taper and spindle bore and length
measurements and you will eventually find one.

Maybe others can point you to someone who still makes them for
manual machines.

Enjoy,
DoN.

What DoN said. I made my own handwheel type, including the protector.
I made the handwheel from aluminum plate, used an aircraft torque tube
ball bearing for the thrust bearing, and a tube of almost perfect
dimensions of 4140, just had to thread the ends. However, I didn't
get the performance I wanted (runout) until I replaced the homemade
adapter with one from Royal. Just tell Royal the exact model of your
lathe and they'll tell you what adapter. As a bonus, you'll find out
what your headstock taper is. Mine wound up being a shortened MT5.
Good luck.

Get ready for the sticker shock at Royal. iirc, about $1500 for a complete
snap-handle system, depending depending.

I have two machines with these snap handles/draw tubes, a Clausing
Colchester and an Enco, both 13". The Enco is actually pretty nice bec it
has cam lock chucks, making the swap real easy. The CC req's a big-assed
spanner wrench, and is a real pita.

Snap handles are very nice, but are more for production. For prototyping,
the Bison collet chuck deal Karl showed seems unbeatable for the price,
altho mounting it will certainly require some care.

The only part I bought from Royal was the taper adapter. It was
expensive, but less than $200 IIRC. The rest is pretty easy to make.
I put pics in the dropbox a long time ago. Let's see...

http://metalworking.com/dropbox/_200...5CComplete.JPG

This one has my homemade taper adapter. I never could get less than
..001-.002 runout upon reinstallation.

http://metalworking.com/dropbox/_200...oseAdapter.JPG

The nose adapter is aluminum, works well. At the time, I didn't have
a shaper and hadn't heard of the cross slide as hand shaper trick,
filed the keyway.

http://metalworking.com/dropbox/_200...oj-5CParts.JPG

The handwheel was made of 3/4" al plate, with a separate piece for the
hub, bearing carrier is mild steel, tube is 4140.

Pete Keillor

On 1 Aug 2008 04:23:25 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

I had to order a new nosepiece and protector from Royal when I
got my L-00 spindle -- but I understand that Royal no longer sells these
for anything but CNC machines these days. (Scott Logan - is that
right?)

Sort of. Royal Products no longer manufactures the lever operated
collet closers, but they do still have many parts. I'm not clear if
they are using up old stock or still manufacturing.

We do have a new supplier of US made lever operated collet closers, in
case anyone is interested. Drop me an email for details.


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| Harvard, IL |
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| Montgomery Wards Lathes |
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+--------------------------------------------+
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On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 08:55:04 -0500, Scott S. Logan
wrote:

We do have a new supplier of US made lever operated collet closers, in
case anyone is interested. Drop me an email for details.


Id be very interested Scott

Gunner, Machine tool repair wonk.


"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group, they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core, and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr

Iggy,

I had a "chuck" style closer on my old import because it's spindle bore was
too small for 5C.. It was quite adequite and well with in .0005 once I
dialed it in, no need for a "tru-set" kinda thingy here. Biggest down side
is it's a real pain when you swap collets, and if I had my choice would be
last.

Have used "handwheel draw tubes", servicable but a pain, make it a second
choice.

Have a Royal "lever draw tube" on the 5914... It's the way to go... Good
deals are tough but $125, for all the important pieces is about right...
Important pieces includes the splined coller that mounts on the back of the
spindle, without that it's just not worth the effort.

I managed to purchase a used Royal lever setup with the spline and tube,
that was the correct mount and length for the 5914, but I had to fab the
pivot arm.

BTW DoN, I bought the 4.5 morse to 5C on e-bay (it's reasonably common) for
$25.00 and made my "nose cover" from scrap AL.

Iggy, you at least need to see some pictures of a lever action, but you
really need to see one in action.
..
--.- Dave

"Ignoramus25244" wrote in message
...
Won this on ebay. This backplate should fit my lathe. It did not cost
much, so I am sure that I can use it for various purposes, whatever
they might be.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=190239479425

And my question is, how hard is it to find a 5C collet adaptor/chuck
that would fit this, perhaps with some machining. I am not sure what
is the exact name of the thing that I would be looking for. "plain
back 5C chuck" or something?

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their
inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On 2008-08-02, Dave August wrote:
Iggy,

I had a "chuck" style closer on my old import because it's spindle bore was
too small for 5C.. It was quite adequite and well with in .0005 once I
dialed it in, no need for a "tru-set" kinda thingy here. Biggest down side
is it's a real pain when you swap collets, and if I had my choice would be
last.

O.K. My only real experience with a 5C collet chuck was on a
friend's Logan and it had terrible runout -- but we finally discovered
that the spindle nose was bent, and found a replacement on eBay.

However, the key for swapping collets was still terrible --
especially since I was used to a lever style closer on my 12x24"
Clausing. :-)

Have used "handwheel draw tubes", servicable but a pain, make it a second
choice.

They are not bad on the WW collet spindle for the Unimat SL-1000
and on real jeweler's lathes. I've not used them on larger lathes where
the reach is longer.

Have a Royal "lever draw tube" on the 5914... It's the way to go... Good
deals are tough but $125, for all the important pieces is about right...
Important pieces includes the splined coller that mounts on the back of the
spindle, without that it's just not worth the effort.

:-)

I was lucky that my Clausing came with a lever style closer, but
I did have to replace the adaptor and nose protector when I replaced the
2-1/4x8 nosed spindle with one with a L-00 nose.

I managed to purchase a used Royal lever setup with the spline and tube,
that was the correct mount and length for the 5914, but I had to fab the
pivot arm.

O.K.

BTW DoN, I bought the 4.5 morse to 5C on e-bay (it's reasonably common) for
$25.00 and made my "nose cover" from scrap AL.

Finding the adaptor on eBay would have taken too long at the
time (I checked) so I went for the purchase of adaptor and protector
from Royal through Scott Logan. (I'm glad to hear that he has a new
source -- I just got in under the wire with the Royal ones I think.)

As for making the nose protector, part of the problem was that I
had never seen one for the L-00 so I didn't know what I was making. The
other part was that I didn't have any scrap large enough for the task at
the time.

Iggy, you at least need to see some pictures of a lever action, but you
really need to see one in action.

Even better -- to *use* one. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

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Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
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