On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:52:17 -0600, Louis Ohland
wrote:

wrote:
On Feb 13, 7:15 pm, "vinny" wrote:
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in messagenews:1006r3p9spnjloeu378q3n60lc23jtp0u1@4ax .com...

George, it's time to take your meds. Be a good boy!

I just HAVE to chime in here.
mass producing stuff.
unlimited supplies of raw material, with the exception of rubber
And let's, for the sake of argument, agree that US design was much
better than what the "stupid" Germans could ever dream up in 1000
years....

Unfortunately, the tank was seen as an infantry support weapon, so they
settled for an existing low velocity 3" gun. Bet it really sucked
watching the projectile bounce off the german armor.

In WW2, Allied ratios were 5 Allied tanks killed to 1 German tank
killed.

Even against the superb Russian T-34, the ratio was still high.

http://zhukov.mitsi.com/Kursk.htm

The largest armored battle in WW2 was the Battle of Kursk
(well...not counting the battle of the Gembloux Gap, which oddly
enough..the French won, agains the Germans.....)

From July 4, to July 22. Just a few days more than 2 weeks....

"On the 22nd both forces were utterly exhausted and fighting
(officially) drew to a close. By this point overall German casualties
may have been as high as 500,000 killed or wounded. The Soviet
casualty figures were not released until the end of the communist
regime, and comprised 250,000 killed and 600,000 wounded. They also
lost 50% of their tank strength during the Kursk offensive."


Now compare that to the largest tank battle in US history..the Battle
of Medina Ridge in 1991.....

"During the battle, the American forces suffered only one fatality (no
fatalities were due to enemy fire), while destroying 186 Iraqi tanks
(mostly T-72s and Type 69s) and 127 armored vehicles. Only four Abrams
tanks were hit by direct fire and disabled. Not a single coalition
tank was destroyed in the action. Thirty-eight of the tanks were
eliminated by six U.S. AH-64 Apaches from 3 mi (5 km) away at night
and in rain, and from U.S. Air Force A-10 Warthogs."

It lasted 2 hours.


Gunner






"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

wrote:
On Feb 13, 7:15 pm, "vinny" wrote:
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in messagenews:1006r3p9spnjloeu378q3n60lc23jtp0u1@4ax .com...

George, it's time to take your meds. Be a good boy!

I just HAVE to chime in here.
mass producing stuff.
unlimited supplies of raw material, with the exception of rubber
And let's, for the sake of argument, agree that US design was much
better than what the "stupid" Germans could ever dream up in 1000
years....

Unfortunately, the tank was seen as an infantry support weapon, so they
settled for an existing low velocity 3" gun. Bet it really sucked
watching the projectile bounce off the german armor.

Explain to me then why it took the combined effort of the ENTIRE
English speaking world, the ENTIRE capitalist world, and the ENTIRE
communist world (agreed there is some overlap here)

Part of the issue was the French government and society convincing
themselves that the Germans were weak and not able to provide a serious
threat.

To Loose a Battle by Alistair Horne

That Germany declared war formally on the US after Pearl Harbour was
rather academic because the US was at war with Germany from the
beginning, supplying material to the British. Why was this when 80% of
the US population and congress was against any entanglement?

Look at the parallels of today. Security contractors in Iraq, the UN
hiring contractors for protection in Africa. So who is an agent of a
combatant power? Contractors on the battlefield. It's not just for lunch
anymore.

The war was won by the practically unlimited personnel available to
the Soviet Communists who were supplied with war material and money by
the US; this included printing plates for US currency, for crying out
loud. (read the book written by Roosevelt's son-in-law for add'l
info).

Didn't know of the plates.

So, if you want to gloat that "you" kicked Germany's ass, so be it. A
bunch of bullies can always beat up the most courageous individual.

I'm sure George has fantasies whenever his medication wears off. Lots of
people want to be Napoleon, for example.

Now let's look at the US "achievements" post WWII: Vietnam, Korea,
Desert Storm, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. nothing but failure after
failure, with what were, and are, truly backward countries.

But the Berlin Wall did come down. Thermonuclear war hasn't happened (yet).

You chest thumpers really need to get your nose out of your comic
books and observe the world around you. 45 years ago I had a similar
discussion in high school history about the winners and losers of WWII
and at that time I said that the jury was still out on that.

Interesting point. Where do morals end, and parochialism begin? I fear
with our current crop of presidential wannabees there won't be much
intelligent debate on what America should be.

OK the western world won that war, but what did that get you??? For
crying out loud, look around you, what did winning the war get you?
Unlimited crime, drugs, child pornography, corrupt politicians, high
level manufacturing disappearing, service jobs the only growth. You
really think you can run a modern country on micro computers and
hamburgers?? What are the prospects for your grand children?

Sex, drugs, and Mountain Dew. Hands off!

You might begin by reading the diaries of General Patton, and what he
thought when he marched into Germany. Read what Churchill thought
after the war. A little clue: "We gored the wrong ox" (Churchill),
and "We ruined the only DECENT country in Europe" (Patton). And those
guys ought to have known.

Think of the fellow travelers all over the western world, apologizing
for the millions that Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot killed. Doesn't seem
like everyone could come to the same conclusion with the same data. Like
George.

So get off your high ****ing horse.

You might have hit the gong squarely with "high"

One more thing: Germany is the largest exporting country, period, to
the tune of 1.4 trillion dollars per year. It took that rank from the
US in 2002, I think. China is a very close second and will probably
take first place in the next couple of years. That is not due to
slacking off, but simply because 1.500.000.000 (1.5 billion) Chinese
can outproduce 82.000.000 (82 million) Germans, given time; and, of
course, the western world buying cheap and contaminated Chinese
whatever. That the US with 300.000.000 (300 million) population does
not hold that position with its so much "superior technology and
people", is truly laughable. Or is it?????

Rant off for 2008. :-))

Wolfgang