FYI...

It makes one wonder how many more of these under sized gusset plates
are out there waiting to be found....

TMT

Design flaw cited in bridge collapse By FREDERIC J. FROMMER,
Associated Press Writer

Steel plates connecting beams in the Interstate 35W bridge in
Minneapolis were too thin by half and fractured, "the critical factor"
in the collapse that killed 13 people and injured 145, the National
Transportation Safety Board said Tuesday.

The connectors, called gusset plates, were roughly half the 1-inch
thickness they should have been because of a design error, NTSB
Chairman Mark Rosenker said. Investigators found 16 fractured gusset
plates from the bridge's center span.

"It is the undersizing of the design which we believe is the critical
factor here. It is the critical factor that began the process of this
collapse. That's what failed," Rosenker said at a news conference.

What caused the bridge to collapse during rush-hour traffic in the
early evening of Aug. 1 -- "the straw that broke the camel's back," as
Rosenker put it -- was not yet known, he said. A final report by the
NTSB was expected this fall.

The Minneapolis span was a steel-deck truss bridge that opened in
1967. Rosenker said it wasn't clear how the design flaw made it into
the bridge because investigators couldn't find the design
calculations.

The bridge was called "fracture critical," or lacking redundancies,
meaning that a failure of any number of structural elements would
cause the entire bridge to collapse.

Rosenker said the safety board had no evidence that the deficiencies
in the Minneapolis bridge design "are widespread or go beyond this
bridge."

However, the NTSB couldn't discount the possibility of similar errors
in other like bridges, he said, and cautioned that states and
contractors should look at the original design calculations for such
bridges before they undertake "future operational changes." The NTSB
issued a safety recommendation to the Transportation Department's
Federal Highway Administration suggesting that the agency require
bridge owners to do so.

Transportation Secretary Mary Peters called on states to calculate how
changes in bridge weight, capacity or evolving bridge conditions will
affect gusset plates.

"With a few calculations, we can help reassure travelers that our
bridges remain safe," Peters said in a statement.

Rosenker noted that structural weight had been added to the
Minneapolis bridge in two major renovations, in the 1970s and 1990s.

"When they added the weight they didn't realize they were bringing the
margins of safety down to where they didn't exist anymore," he said.

Rosenker said that construction materials on the bridge the day it
collapsed, which were part of a resurfacing project, added about 300
tons and were on the same side where failure of the bridge began.

Asked if the construction was the tipping point, Rosenker said, "I'm
not ruling it in, and I'm not ruling it out." That will be left to the
final report to determine, he said.

Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, a professor of civil and environmental
engineering at the University of California at Berkeley and an expert
on gussets, spent 10 days in Minneapolis after the collapse gathering
information for his own research.

"I concluded that the construction load may have been the last straw,"
he said.

Last August, Peters advised states to consider the additional stress
placed on bridges during construction projects.

Rosenker said there was little chance that bridge inspectors would
have noticed undersized gusset plates.

"No one recognized that you could undersize a gusset plate," Rosenker
said.

"In the history of this organization, we have not seen anything like
this before," he said, adding that gusset plates are supposed to be
stronger than the beams they connect. "It was a shock, if you will, to
the investigating team."

Dan Dorgan, the state bridge engineer in Minnesota, said that the
assumption is that gussets wouldn't be the weakest point in the
design.

"And, in fact, computer programs that generally model these bridges
typically do not take gusset plates into consideration," Dorgan said.
"They mainly look at the main members."

The Minneapolis bridge was deemed "structurally deficient" by the
federal government as far back as 1990, and the state's maintenance of
the structure has been questioned. But Rosenker said the NTSB
investigation has found no evidence that cracking, corrosion or other
wear "played any role in the collapse of the bridge."

Investigators also found no flaws in the steel and concrete material
used in the bridge.

The bridge was originally designed by Sverdrup & Parcel, a company
acquired in 1999 by Jacobs Engineering Group Inc. of Pasadena, Calif.
A message left by The Associated Press with Jacobs Engineering wasn't
immediately returned.

Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty noted that he had warned others not to
jump to conclusions about the collapse. Pawlenty and his
transportation commissioner, Lt. Gov. Carol Molnau, have been sharply
criticized over state funding for infrastructure and maintenance.

"While the NTSB investigation is not complete, the focus of the
investigation appears headed in a direction different than many of the
political claims that have been made," Pawlenty said.

Minnesota is reviewing 23 state bridges with truss designs to make
sure their current load ratings fit with the gusset design. Officials
hope to complete the state reviews by June at a cost of $500,000.
There are another 36 such bridges controlled by municipal governments
in Minnesota.

Late last year, President Bush signed a massive spending bill that
included $195 million to help replace the bridge. That came on top of
the $178.5 million the federal government had already given Minnesota
for the project.

___

Associated Press reporters Brian Bakst in St. Paul and Steve Karnowski
in Minneapolis contributed to this story.

I don't think I buy it. Follow the money and find where the payola is
squashing the real cause. How old was that bridge? 45-50 something?.
More likely scenario: the construction gang on the span at the time of
collapse-"Hey Boss-I done pulled thet pin yoo toll me two..."
"NOT *THAT* PIN!!!!AAAAGGGHHHHH............."
JR
Dweller in the cellar


Too_Many_Tools wrote:
FYI...

It makes one wonder how many more of these under sized gusset plates
are out there waiting to be found....

TMT

Design flaw cited in bridge collapse By FREDERIC J. FROMMER,
Associated Press Writer

Steel plates connecting beams in the Interstate 35W bridge in
Minneapolis were too thin by half and fractured, "the critical factor"
in the collapse that killed 13 people and injured 145, the National
Transportation Safety Board said Tuesday.

The connectors, called gusset plates, were roughly half the 1-inch
thickness they should have been because of a design error, NTSB
Chairman Mark Rosenker said. Investigators found 16 fractured gusset
plates from the bridge's center span.

"It is the undersizing of the design which we believe is the critical
factor here. It is the critical factor that began the process of this
collapse. That's what failed," Rosenker said at a news conference.

What caused the bridge to collapse during rush-hour traffic in the
early evening of Aug. 1 -- "the straw that broke the camel's back," as
Rosenker put it -- was not yet known, he said. A final report by the
NTSB was expected this fall.

The Minneapolis span was a steel-deck truss bridge that opened in
1967. Rosenker said it wasn't clear how the design flaw made it into
the bridge because investigators couldn't find the design
calculations.

The bridge was called "fracture critical," or lacking redundancies,
meaning that a failure of any number of structural elements would
cause the entire bridge to collapse.

Rosenker said the safety board had no evidence that the deficiencies
in the Minneapolis bridge design "are widespread or go beyond this
bridge."

However, the NTSB couldn't discount the possibility of similar errors
in other like bridges, he said, and cautioned that states and
contractors should look at the original design calculations for such
bridges before they undertake "future operational changes." The NTSB
issued a safety recommendation to the Transportation Department's
Federal Highway Administration suggesting that the agency require
bridge owners to do so.

Transportation Secretary Mary Peters called on states to calculate how
changes in bridge weight, capacity or evolving bridge conditions will
affect gusset plates.

"With a few calculations, we can help reassure travelers that our
bridges remain safe," Peters said in a statement.

Rosenker noted that structural weight had been added to the
Minneapolis bridge in two major renovations, in the 1970s and 1990s.

"When they added the weight they didn't realize they were bringing the
margins of safety down to where they didn't exist anymore," he said.

Rosenker said that construction materials on the bridge the day it
collapsed, which were part of a resurfacing project, added about 300
tons and were on the same side where failure of the bridge began.

Asked if the construction was the tipping point, Rosenker said, "I'm
not ruling it in, and I'm not ruling it out." That will be left to the
final report to determine, he said.

Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, a professor of civil and environmental
engineering at the University of California at Berkeley and an expert
on gussets, spent 10 days in Minneapolis after the collapse gathering
information for his own research.

"I concluded that the construction load may have been the last straw,"
he said.

Last August, Peters advised states to consider the additional stress
placed on bridges during construction projects.

Rosenker said there was little chance that bridge inspectors would
have noticed undersized gusset plates.

"No one recognized that you could undersize a gusset plate," Rosenker
said.

"In the history of this organization, we have not seen anything like
this before," he said, adding that gusset plates are supposed to be
stronger than the beams they connect. "It was a shock, if you will, to
the investigating team."

Dan Dorgan, the state bridge engineer in Minnesota, said that the
assumption is that gussets wouldn't be the weakest point in the
design.

"And, in fact, computer programs that generally model these bridges
typically do not take gusset plates into consideration," Dorgan said.
"They mainly look at the main members."

The Minneapolis bridge was deemed "structurally deficient" by the
federal government as far back as 1990, and the state's maintenance of
the structure has been questioned. But Rosenker said the NTSB
investigation has found no evidence that cracking, corrosion or other
wear "played any role in the collapse of the bridge."

Investigators also found no flaws in the steel and concrete material
used in the bridge.

The bridge was originally designed by Sverdrup & Parcel, a company
acquired in 1999 by Jacobs Engineering Group Inc. of Pasadena, Calif.
A message left by The Associated Press with Jacobs Engineering wasn't
immediately returned.

Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty noted that he had warned others not to
jump to conclusions about the collapse. Pawlenty and his
transportation commissioner, Lt. Gov. Carol Molnau, have been sharply
criticized over state funding for infrastructure and maintenance.

"While the NTSB investigation is not complete, the focus of the
investigation appears headed in a direction different than many of the
political claims that have been made," Pawlenty said.

Minnesota is reviewing 23 state bridges with truss designs to make
sure their current load ratings fit with the gusset design. Officials
hope to complete the state reviews by June at a cost of $500,000.
There are another 36 such bridges controlled by municipal governments
in Minnesota.

Late last year, President Bush signed a massive spending bill that
included $195 million to help replace the bridge. That came on top of
the $178.5 million the federal government had already given Minnesota
for the project.

___

Associated Press reporters Brian Bakst in St. Paul and Steve Karnowski
in Minneapolis contributed to this story.




--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

JR North wrote:

I don't think I buy it. Follow the money and find where the payola is
squashing the real cause. How old was that bridge? 45-50 something?.
More likely scenario: the construction gang on the span at the time of
collapse-"Hey Boss-I done pulled thet pin yoo toll me two..."
"NOT *THAT* PIN!!!!AAAAGGGHHHHH............."
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Certainly a possibility.

More likely the bridge was engineered correctly at first, and somewhere
in the drafting to the final plans the gusset size was misapplied as
"half this thickness per side", instead of "this thickness per side" and
then the construction crew didn't mention to the engineer that the
thickness was half of what they were used to from other bridges.

On Jan 15, 6:27*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
JR North wrote:

I don't think I buy it. Follow the money and find where the payola is
squashing the real cause. How old was that bridge? 45-50 something?.
More likely scenario: the construction gang on the span at the time of
collapse-"Hey Boss-I done pulled thet pin yoo toll me two..."
"NOT *THAT* PIN!!!!AAAAGGGHHHHH............."
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Certainly a possibility.

More likely the bridge was engineered correctly at first, and somewhere
in the drafting to the final plans the gusset size was misapplied as
"half this thickness per side", instead of "this thickness per side" and
then the construction crew didn't mention to the engineer that the
thickness was half of what they were used to from other bridges.

Yeah..I am a bit surprised on this explanation.

Gussets are something that one does check.

TMT

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:43:37 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

On Jan 15, 6:27*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
JR North wrote:

I don't think I buy it. Follow the money and find where the payola is
squashing the real cause. How old was that bridge? 45-50 something?.
More likely scenario: the construction gang on the span at the time of
collapse-"Hey Boss-I done pulled thet pin yoo toll me two..."
"NOT *THAT* PIN!!!!AAAAGGGHHHHH............."
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Certainly a possibility.

More likely the bridge was engineered correctly at first, and somewhere
in the drafting to the final plans the gusset size was misapplied as
"half this thickness per side", instead of "this thickness per side" and
then the construction crew didn't mention to the engineer that the
thickness was half of what they were used to from other bridges.

Yeah..I am a bit surprised on this explanation.

Gussets are something that one does check.

TMT

May be, but if the findings are negative they get suppressed by the
pols. Case of that in today's Mnpls paper re the Hastings bridge.
Inspectors found some serious problems but the MNDOT commissioner
(and Lt. Guv) suppressed the reports. Several times.

It seems that the Dems in the legislature are reluctant to give her
the boot because she is such a visible political liablity for the GOP
Guv who is now scurrying like hell to distance himself from her
although she was his pick for the job(s).

Freakin' politicians!

On Jan 16, 1:27 am, Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:43:37 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools



wrote:
On Jan 15, 6:27 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
JR North wrote:

I don't think I buy it. Follow the money and find where the payola is
squashing the real cause. How old was that bridge? 45-50 something?.
More likely scenario: the construction gang on the span at the time of
collapse-"Hey Boss-I done pulled thet pin yoo toll me two..."
"NOT *THAT* PIN!!!!AAAAGGGHHHHH............."
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Certainly a possibility.

More likely the bridge was engineered correctly at first, and somewhere
in the drafting to the final plans the gusset size was misapplied as
"half this thickness per side", instead of "this thickness per side" and
then the construction crew didn't mention to the engineer that the
thickness was half of what they were used to from other bridges.

Yeah..I am a bit surprised on this explanation.

Gussets are something that one does check.

TMT

May be, but if the findings are negative they get suppressed by the
pols. Case of that in today's Mnpls paper re the Hastings bridge.
Inspectors found some serious problems but the MNDOT commissioner
(and Lt. Guv) suppressed the reports. Several times.

It seems that the Dems in the legislature are reluctant to give her
the boot because she is such a visible political liablity for the GOP
Guv who is now scurrying like hell to distance himself from her
although she was his pick for the job(s).

Freakin' politicians!

You guys had a good politician, Governor Jessie Ventura, HONEST, but
could not stop from telling the truth to the point of political
incorrectness. "Religion is for those with weak minds". Which I
agree with, but you don't tell that to your constituents in a Playboy
interview. Of course you could get yourself another HHH super
liberal. His legacy lives on.
ignator

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
JR North wrote:

I don't think I buy it. Follow the money and find where the payola is
squashing the real cause. How old was that bridge? 45-50 something?.
More likely scenario: the construction gang on the span at the time of
collapse-"Hey Boss-I done pulled thet pin yoo toll me two..."
"NOT *THAT* PIN!!!!AAAAGGGHHHHH............."
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Certainly a possibility.

More likely the bridge was engineered correctly at first, and somewhere
in the drafting to the final plans the gusset size was misapplied as
"half this thickness per side", instead of "this thickness per side" and
then the construction crew didn't mention to the engineer that the
thickness was half of what they were used to from other bridges.

More likely, the construction crew mentioned it to the manager, he told his
manager, who ignored it. In my experience, the guys on the front lines of
any business spot a potentially huge problem and report it, the message
never reaches anyone who can do anything about it. I've worked in a variety
of industries and from what I've seen, this is pretty much universal. I
have no idea why.

"sk" wrote in message
...
On Jan 16, 1:27 am, Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:43:37 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools



wrote:
On Jan 15, 6:27 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
JR North wrote:

I don't think I buy it. Follow the money and find where the payola
is
squashing the real cause. How old was that bridge? 45-50 something?.
More likely scenario: the construction gang on the span at the time
of
collapse-"Hey Boss-I done pulled thet pin yoo toll me two..."
"NOT *THAT* PIN!!!!AAAAGGGHHHHH............."
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Certainly a possibility.

More likely the bridge was engineered correctly at first, and
somewhere
in the drafting to the final plans the gusset size was misapplied as
"half this thickness per side", instead of "this thickness per side"
and
then the construction crew didn't mention to the engineer that the
thickness was half of what they were used to from other bridges.

Yeah..I am a bit surprised on this explanation.

Gussets are something that one does check.

TMT

May be, but if the findings are negative they get suppressed by the
pols. Case of that in today's Mnpls paper re the Hastings bridge.
Inspectors found some serious problems but the MNDOT commissioner
(and Lt. Guv) suppressed the reports. Several times.

It seems that the Dems in the legislature are reluctant to give her
the boot because she is such a visible political liablity for the GOP
Guv who is now scurrying like hell to distance himself from her
although she was his pick for the job(s).

Freakin' politicians!

You guys had a good politician, Governor Jessie Ventura, HONEST, but
could not stop from telling the truth to the point of political
incorrectness. "Religion is for those with weak minds". Which I
agree with, but you don't tell that to your constituents in a Playboy
interview. Of course you could get yourself another HHH super
liberal. His legacy lives on.
ignator

Jesse is honest, and a great guy, and was a pretty good governor, but not
exactly the brightest kid on the block. He was incredibly naive about a
number of things, including picking fights with the press (and a lot of
other things). Not that the press didn't ask for it, but in politics,
fighting with the press is as bad as if not worse than biting the hand that
feeds you.

Adam Corolla wrote:


More likely, the construction crew mentioned it to the manager, he told his
manager, who ignored it. In my experience, the guys on the front lines of
any business spot a potentially huge problem and report it, the message
never reaches anyone who can do anything about it. I've worked in a variety
of industries and from what I've seen, this is pretty much universal. I
have no idea why.



Dunno if it applies in those worlds, but around my world, it would be
called the "sunshine filter".

Guys think they won't ever get the next pay raise or promotion if they
deliver bad news or problems, so they filter them out, and will only
blow purified sunshine up the boss's arse.

Spinless gits, as often as not. The ones with spines deal with the
problems, or if they cannot, pass them on to those that can.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:36:01 -0600, Adam Corolla wrote:


"sk" wrote in message
...
On Jan 16, 1:27 am, Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:43:37 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools



wrote:
On Jan 15, 6:27 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
JR North wrote:

I don't think I buy it. Follow the money and find where the payola
is
squashing the real cause. How old was that bridge? 45-50 something?.
More likely scenario: the construction gang on the span at the time
of
collapse-"Hey Boss-I done pulled thet pin yoo toll me two..."
"NOT *THAT* PIN!!!!AAAAGGGHHHHH............."
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Certainly a possibility.

More likely the bridge was engineered correctly at first, and
somewhere
in the drafting to the final plans the gusset size was misapplied as
"half this thickness per side", instead of "this thickness per side"
and
then the construction crew didn't mention to the engineer that the
thickness was half of what they were used to from other bridges.

Yeah..I am a bit surprised on this explanation.

Gussets are something that one does check.

TMT

May be, but if the findings are negative they get suppressed by the
pols. Case of that in today's Mnpls paper re the Hastings bridge.
Inspectors found some serious problems but the MNDOT commissioner
(and Lt. Guv) suppressed the reports. Several times.

It seems that the Dems in the legislature are reluctant to give her
the boot because she is such a visible political liablity for the GOP
Guv who is now scurrying like hell to distance himself from her
although she was his pick for the job(s).

Freakin' politicians!

You guys had a good politician, Governor Jessie Ventura, HONEST, but
could not stop from telling the truth to the point of political
incorrectness. "Religion is for those with weak minds". Which I
agree with, but you don't tell that to your constituents in a Playboy
interview. Of course you could get yourself another HHH super
liberal. His legacy lives on.
ignator

Jesse is honest, and a great guy, and was a pretty good governor, but not
exactly the brightest kid on the block. He was incredibly naive about a
number of things, including picking fights with the press (and a lot of
other things). Not that the press didn't ask for it, but in politics,
fighting with the press is as bad as if not worse than biting the hand that
feeds you.

My brother (who still lives in MN) once referred to him as "Jesse the
Mouth." ;-)

(derived, of course, from his pro rasslin' career as "Jesse the Body".)

Cheers!
Rich

You guys had a good politician, Governor Jessie Ventura, HONEST, but
could not stop from telling the truth to the point of political
incorrectness. "Religion is for those with weak minds". Which I
agree with, but you don't tell that to your constituents in a Playboy
interview. Of course you could get yourself another HHH super
liberal. His legacy lives on.

And for such a big guy, he sure had a thin skin about EVERYTHING! Could
not take the heat.

On Jan 16, 1:27*am, Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:43:37 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools





wrote:
On Jan 15, 6:27*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
JR North wrote:

I don't think I buy it. Follow the money and find where the payola is
squashing the real cause. How old was that bridge? 45-50 something?.
More likely scenario: the construction gang on the span at the time of
collapse-"Hey Boss-I done pulled thet pin yoo toll me two..."
"NOT *THAT* PIN!!!!AAAAGGGHHHHH............."
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Certainly a possibility.

More likely the bridge was engineered correctly at first, and somewhere
in the drafting to the final plans the gusset size was misapplied as
"half this thickness per side", instead of "this thickness per side" and
then the construction crew didn't mention to the engineer that the
thickness was half of what they were used to from other bridges.

Yeah..I am a bit surprised on this explanation.

Gussets are something that one does check.

TMT

May be, but if the findings are negative they get suppressed by the
pols. *Case of that in today's Mnpls paper re the Hastings bridge.
Inspectors found some serious problems but *the MNDOT commissioner
(and Lt. Guv) *suppressed the reports. Several times. *

It seems that the *Dems in the legislature *are reluctant to give her
the boot because she is such a visible *political liablity for the GOP
Guv who is now scurrying like hell to distance himself from her
although she was his pick for the job(s). *

Freakin' politicians! *- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Kinda like the Democrats in Washington keeping George and Dick
around....

George is working very hard to get a Democrat in the White House.

TMT

On Jan 16, 2:29*pm, "Adam Corolla"
wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in message

...





JR North wrote:

I don't think I buy it. Follow the money and find where the payola is
squashing the real cause. How old was that bridge? 45-50 something?.
More likely scenario: the construction gang on the span at the time of
collapse-"Hey Boss-I done pulled thet pin yoo toll me two..."
"NOT *THAT* PIN!!!!AAAAGGGHHHHH............."
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Certainly a possibility.

More likely the bridge was engineered correctly at first, and somewhere
in the drafting to the final plans the gusset size was misapplied as
"half this thickness per side", instead of "this thickness per side" and
then the construction crew didn't mention to the engineer that the
thickness was half of what they were used to from other bridges.

More likely, the construction crew mentioned it to the manager, he told his
manager, who ignored it. *In my experience, the guys on the front lines of
any business spot a potentially huge problem and report it, the message
never reaches anyone who can do anything about it. *I've worked in a variety
of industries and from what I've seen, this is pretty much universal. *I
have no idea why.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would agre that this happens ALOT.

But in the end the structure is supposed to be inspected.

If the report is true (and we have yet to see the final version), then
that process broke down.

It would not surprise me to learn that the bridge was carrying more
than it was designed for...without authorization.

TMT

On Jan 16, 5:14*pm, Trevor Jones wrote:
Adam Corolla wrote:

More likely, the construction crew mentioned it to the manager, he told his
manager, who ignored it. *In my experience, the guys on the front lines of
any business spot a potentially huge problem and report it, the message
never reaches anyone who can do anything about it. *I've worked in a variety
of industries and from what I've seen, this is pretty much universal. *I
have no idea why.

* Dunno if it applies in those worlds, but around my world, it would be
called the "sunshine filter".

* Guys think they won't ever get the next pay raise or promotion if they
deliver bad news or problems, so they filter them out, and will only
blow purified sunshine up the boss's arse.

* Spinless gits, as often as not. The ones with spines deal with the
problems, or if they cannot, pass them on to those that can.

* Cheers
* *Trevor Jones

"Sunshine filtering" is an universal truth.

The messenger is always killed.

TMT

On Jan 16, 7:07*pm, RoyJ wrote:
You guys had a good politician, Governor Jessie Ventura, HONEST, but
could not stop from telling the truth to the point of political
incorrectness. *"Religion is for those with weak minds". *Which I
agree with, but you don't tell that to your constituents in a Playboy
interview. Of course you could get yourself another HHH super
liberal. *His legacy lives on.

And for such a big guy, he sure had a thin skin about EVERYTHING! *Could
not take the heat.

I have seen the type many times.

He was used to dealing with it physically.

TMT

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:16:33 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

On Jan 16, 2:29*pm, "Adam Corolla"
wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in message

...






I would agre that this happens ALOT.

But in the end the structure is supposed to be inspected.

When I started in Project Management in 1964, I stayed on a major
project from tender award to final acceptance. By the time I retired
in 1994, I was lucky to make a site visit more than once per week. In
the early years, the contractor was free to ask my advise or suggest
alternatives, after my move to regional office, management attitude
was "let him build it as it was designed, and, let him figure it out
for himself. If he does it wrong, make him do it over (if we catch
it)" and ALL CONRACTORS ARE CROOKS. Need I say I was happy to take the
retirement package when it was offered.

If the report is true (and we have yet to see the final version), then
that process broke down.

It would not surprise me to learn that the bridge was carrying more
than it was designed for...without authorization.

TMT
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:17:34 -0800 (PST) in rec.crafts.metalworking,
Too_Many_Tools wrote,
The messenger is always killed.

"I don't want yes-men around me. I want everyone to tell the truth,
even if costs them their jobs."
-- Samuel Goldwyn.

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:12:58 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

On Jan 16, 1:27*am, Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:43:37 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools





wrote:
On Jan 15, 6:27*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
JR North wrote:

I don't think I buy it. Follow the money and find where the payola is
squashing the real cause. How old was that bridge? 45-50 something?.
More likely scenario: the construction gang on the span at the time of
collapse-"Hey Boss-I done pulled thet pin yoo toll me two..."
"NOT *THAT* PIN!!!!AAAAGGGHHHHH............."
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Certainly a possibility.

More likely the bridge was engineered correctly at first, and somewhere
in the drafting to the final plans the gusset size was misapplied as
"half this thickness per side", instead of "this thickness per side" and
then the construction crew didn't mention to the engineer that the
thickness was half of what they were used to from other bridges.

Yeah..I am a bit surprised on this explanation.

Gussets are something that one does check.

TMT

May be, but if the findings are negative they get suppressed by the
pols. *Case of that in today's Mnpls paper re the Hastings bridge.
Inspectors found some serious problems but *the MNDOT commissioner
(and Lt. Guv) *suppressed the reports. Several times. *

It seems that the *Dems in the legislature *are reluctant to give her
the boot because she is such a visible *political liablity for the GOP
Guv who is now scurrying like hell to distance himself from her
although she was his pick for the job(s). *

Freakin' politicians! *- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Kinda like the Democrats in Washington keeping George and Dick
around....

George is working very hard to get a Democrat in the White House.

TMT


And the Democrats are working very hard to put a dick in the White
House.

Gunner

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:11:12 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
snip
And the Democrats are working very hard to put a dick in the White
House.

Gunner
=========
Red dick -- Blue disk -- it's still a dick...

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:35:03 -0800, David Harmon
wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:17:34 -0800 (PST) in rec.crafts.metalworking,
Too_Many_Tools wrote,
The messenger is always killed.

"I don't want yes-men around me. I want everyone to tell the truth,
even if costs them their jobs."
-- Samuel Goldwyn.
===============
Even if the plate thickness was adequate when designed, 50 years
of salt and weather *MAY* have reduced this below minimum.

Anyone have information/insight into how much corrosion had taken
place?

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:35:03 -0800, David Harmon
wrote:


On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:17:34 -0800 (PST) in rec.crafts.metalworking,
Too_Many_Tools wrote,

The messenger is always killed.

"I don't want yes-men around me. I want everyone to tell the truth,
even if costs them their jobs."
-- Samuel Goldwyn.

===============
Even if the plate thickness was adequate when designed, 50 years
of salt and weather *MAY* have reduced this below minimum.

Anyone have information/insight into how much corrosion had taken
place?



There was a picture of the bridge on one of the area's TV station's web
pages shortly after the collapse (I think it was a stock photo that had
been up for a year) that showed HUGE orange streaks on the side of the
sub-structure, in the general area where the collapse was supposed to
have started. The picture mysteriously disappeared a few days after the
accident. The amount of rust looked ENORMOUS to me, bit I'm not a
trained M.E. The photo was supposed to be from about one year before
the collapse.

Jon

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:36:01 -0600, Adam Corolla wrote:


"sk" wrote in message
...
On Jan 16, 1:27 am, Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:43:37 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools



wrote:
On Jan 15, 6:27 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
JR North wrote:

I don't think I buy it. Follow the money and find where the payola
is
squashing the real cause. How old was that bridge? 45-50
something?.
More likely scenario: the construction gang on the span at the
time
of
collapse-"Hey Boss-I done pulled thet pin yoo toll me two..."
"NOT *THAT* PIN!!!!AAAAGGGHHHHH............."
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Certainly a possibility.

More likely the bridge was engineered correctly at first, and
somewhere
in the drafting to the final plans the gusset size was misapplied as
"half this thickness per side", instead of "this thickness per side"
and
then the construction crew didn't mention to the engineer that the
thickness was half of what they were used to from other bridges.

Yeah..I am a bit surprised on this explanation.

Gussets are something that one does check.

TMT

May be, but if the findings are negative they get suppressed by the
pols. Case of that in today's Mnpls paper re the Hastings bridge.
Inspectors found some serious problems but the MNDOT commissioner
(and Lt. Guv) suppressed the reports. Several times.

It seems that the Dems in the legislature are reluctant to give her
the boot because she is such a visible political liablity for the GOP
Guv who is now scurrying like hell to distance himself from her
although she was his pick for the job(s).

Freakin' politicians!

You guys had a good politician, Governor Jessie Ventura, HONEST, but
could not stop from telling the truth to the point of political
incorrectness. "Religion is for those with weak minds". Which I
agree with, but you don't tell that to your constituents in a Playboy
interview. Of course you could get yourself another HHH super
liberal. His legacy lives on.
ignator

Jesse is honest, and a great guy, and was a pretty good governor, but not
exactly the brightest kid on the block. He was incredibly naive about a
number of things, including picking fights with the press (and a lot of
other things). Not that the press didn't ask for it, but in politics,
fighting with the press is as bad as if not worse than biting the hand
that
feeds you.

My brother (who still lives in MN) once referred to him as "Jesse the
Mouth." ;-)

(derived, of course, from his pro rasslin' career as "Jesse the Body".)

Cheers!
Rich

Nice. Yeah, he was annoying. But I gotta give him credit, he did what he
said he'd do and he was honest. That makes him better than most other
politicians right there.

"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:edwjj.6978$yQ1.3473@edtnps89...
Adam Corolla wrote:


More likely, the construction crew mentioned it to the manager, he told
his manager, who ignored it. In my experience, the guys on the front
lines of any business spot a potentially huge problem and report it, the
message never reaches anyone who can do anything about it. I've worked
in a variety of industries and from what I've seen, this is pretty much
universal. I have no idea why.

Dunno if it applies in those worlds, but around my world, it would be
called the "sunshine filter".

Guys think they won't ever get the next pay raise or promotion if they
deliver bad news or problems, so they filter them out, and will only blow
purified sunshine up the boss's arse.

Spinless gits, as often as not. The ones with spines deal with the
problems, or if they cannot, pass them on to those that can.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

I believe you have nailed it. Most of the managers I've known, while many
were nice enough guys and had at least adequate smarts, would cower in fear
at the mere mention of rocking the boat.

"Gerald Miller" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:16:33 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

On Jan 16, 2:29 pm, "Adam Corolla"
wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in message

...






I would agre that this happens ALOT.

But in the end the structure is supposed to be inspected.

When I started in Project Management in 1964, I stayed on a major
project from tender award to final acceptance. By the time I retired
in 1994, I was lucky to make a site visit more than once per week. In
the early years, the contractor was free to ask my advise or suggest
alternatives, after my move to regional office, management attitude
was "let him build it as it was designed, and, let him figure it out
for himself. If he does it wrong, make him do it over (if we catch
it)" and ALL CONRACTORS ARE CROOKS. Need I say I was happy to take the
retirement package when it was offered.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Interesting and sad. The instant the "us-them" attitude arises, efficiency
goes down the tubes.

"F. George McDuffee" wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:11:12 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
snip
And the Democrats are working very hard to put a dick in the White
House.

Gunner
=========
Red dick -- Blue disk -- it's still a dick...

Yep, they're all the same, both wings. The right wing has their vote
buying act down pretty good, while this year the left wing has spray
painted one candidate brown and glued boobs on another to try to confuse
voters. Either way, we know damn well that they all are the same old
plasticized, homogenized political cronie slime.