Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old August 6th 07, 06:14 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
HC HC is offline
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Aug 2007
Posts: 11
Default Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.

Hello, all.

Here's what I have:

- 8 HP Briggs & Stratton IC engine
- Haldex/Barnes 16 GPM direct drive hydraulic pump
- Prince "Logsplitter" vavlve (like can be seen he
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_472_472?cm_sp=Customer%20driven-_-Recently%20Viewed-_-Product%20Page"
- 4 inch bore, 30 inch stroke cylinder
- 3.5 inch bore, 36 inch stroke cylinder

What works:
The engine, hydraulic pump, valve, and 4x30 cylinder are used as a log
splitter. Work great. No problems.

What does't work:
I disconnected the 4x30 cylinder and connected a 3.5 x 36 bore
cylinder for another project (with about 10 feet of hydraulic hose I
can use the logsplitter as a power supply for other hydraulic
projects, which is what I'm doing). Whereas on the logsplitter ram-
speed is not a concern, my current project is sensitive to ram speed.
When I move the handle of the spool slightly to move the ram at low
speed the ram moves very slowly, no problem, until it hits the load
and then the engine bogs and dies. However, when I move the handle to
full-open against the load the ram moves just fine, but way too fast
for my needs and control.

The problem is that I need to be able to control the speed of the
hydraulic ram in my current project but when I try to move the handle
of the vavle slightly, to move the ram slowly, it bogs the engine and
will kill it, under load.

It's got to be the valve or the pump, but I don't know enough about
these things to be sure which it is. I would guess the valve is the
problem, maybe restricting the fluid too much on partial
engagement....but I don't really understand the inner workings of
these things well enough to even form a theory.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

--HC


  #2   Report Post  
Old August 6th 07, 06:25 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Mar 2007
Posts: 9
Default Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.

id try more rotating mass on the engine side.
  #3   Report Post  
Old August 6th 07, 07:47 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Tom Tom is offline
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jan 2007
Posts: 116
Default Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.

HC wrote:
Hello, all.

Here's what I have:

- 8 HP Briggs & Stratton IC engine
- Haldex/Barnes 16 GPM direct drive hydraulic pump
- Prince "Logsplitter" vavlve (like can be seen he
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_472_472?cm_sp=Customer%20driven-_-Recently%20Viewed-_-Product%20Page"
- 4 inch bore, 30 inch stroke cylinder
- 3.5 inch bore, 36 inch stroke cylinder

What works:
The engine, hydraulic pump, valve, and 4x30 cylinder are used as a log
splitter. Work great. No problems.

What does't work:
I disconnected the 4x30 cylinder and connected a 3.5 x 36 bore
cylinder for another project (with about 10 feet of hydraulic hose I
can use the logsplitter as a power supply for other hydraulic
projects, which is what I'm doing). Whereas on the logsplitter ram-
speed is not a concern, my current project is sensitive to ram speed.
When I move the handle of the spool slightly to move the ram at low
speed the ram moves very slowly, no problem, until it hits the load
and then the engine bogs and dies. However, when I move the handle to
full-open against the load the ram moves just fine, but way too fast
for my needs and control.

The problem is that I need to be able to control the speed of the
hydraulic ram in my current project but when I try to move the handle
of the vavle slightly, to move the ram slowly, it bogs the engine and
will kill it, under load.

It's got to be the valve or the pump, but I don't know enough about
these things to be sure which it is. I would guess the valve is the
problem, maybe restricting the fluid too much on partial
engagement....but I don't really understand the inner workings of
these things well enough to even form a theory.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

--HC


Log splitter valves are cheap n nasty and have no real need to
be able to feathered, ie used to choke the flow.
A solution and quite cheap, would be a Prince adjustable
flow control valve in your system:
http://tinyurl.com/23btm3

Tom
  #4   Report Post  
Old August 6th 07, 11:54 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,146
Default Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.

On Aug 6, 1:14 am, HC wrote:
Hello, all.
...
- ... Prince "Logsplitter" vavlve (like can be seen hehttp://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_47..."
...when I try to move the handle
of the vavle slightly, to move the ram slowly, it bogs the engine and
will kill it, under load...
--HC


There is an adjustable pressure relief valve under the hex cap beside
the control handle shaft. Put a *hydraulic pressure rated* tee and a
glycerin-filled 5000Lb pressure gauge at the pump outlet so you can
see what you're doing as you adjust it. The lowest pressure that moves
the load should give you the most control. I don't know the max safe
setting on your system.
Jim Wilkins

  #5   Report Post  
Old August 6th 07, 03:41 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 405
Default Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.

HC wrote:

Hello, all.

Here's what I have:

- 8 HP Briggs & Stratton IC engine
- Haldex/Barnes 16 GPM direct drive hydraulic pump
- Prince "Logsplitter" vavlve (like can be seen he
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_472_472?cm_sp=Customer%20driven-_-Recently%20Viewed-_-Product%20Page"
- 4 inch bore, 30 inch stroke cylinder
- 3.5 inch bore, 36 inch stroke cylinder

What works:
The engine, hydraulic pump, valve, and 4x30 cylinder are used as a log
splitter. Work great. No problems.

What does't work:
I disconnected the 4x30 cylinder and connected a 3.5 x 36 bore
cylinder for another project (with about 10 feet of hydraulic hose I
can use the logsplitter as a power supply for other hydraulic
projects, which is what I'm doing). Whereas on the logsplitter ram-
speed is not a concern, my current project is sensitive to ram speed.
When I move the handle of the spool slightly to move the ram at low
speed the ram moves very slowly, no problem, until it hits the load
and then the engine bogs and dies. However, when I move the handle to
full-open against the load the ram moves just fine, but way too fast
for my needs and control.

The problem is that I need to be able to control the speed of the
hydraulic ram in my current project but when I try to move the handle
of the vavle slightly, to move the ram slowly, it bogs the engine and
will kill it, under load.

It's got to be the valve or the pump, but I don't know enough about
these things to be sure which it is. I would guess the valve is the
problem, maybe restricting the fluid too much on partial
engagement....but I don't really understand the inner workings of
these things well enough to even form a theory.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

--HC

I suspect the valve is not set up for partial flows.

Cheap fix. An adjustable resrtictor. If it causes the valve to kick
off. you may need to plumb in a bypass that allows some fluid to be
tapped off for work, with the rest recirculating.

More expensive, you may find it best to aquire a more suitable valve,
and plumb it in for use with external hookups. Splitters, pretty much,
don't require a lot of fine control.

Cheers
Trevor Jones



  #6   Report Post  
Old August 6th 07, 04:56 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,960
Default Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.

On Aug 6, 6:14 am, HC wrote:

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

--HC


The pump you have is especially good for log splitters. It has two
pumps in one case. When the pressure needed is low, both pumps are
used and you get high volume. When the pressure needed is high, only
the smaller pump is used. This reduces the load on the engine.

Unfortunately it sounds as if you need a low flow all the time for
your second application. Without knowing what you are doing , it is a
bit difficult to make the best recommendation. But you might look at
some surplus catalogs and pick out a smaller constant flow pump and
maybe use an electric motor. The electric motor will run slower than
the gas engine so will slow down the speed of the cylinder. THe
smaller pump will also make things move slower.


Dan

  #7   Report Post  
Old August 6th 07, 06:27 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
HC HC is offline
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Aug 2007
Posts: 11
Default Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.

On Aug 6, 1:47 am, Tom wrote:
HC wrote:
Hello, all.


Here's what I have:


- 8 HP Briggs & Stratton IC engine
- Haldex/Barnes 16 GPM direct drive hydraulic pump
- Prince "Logsplitter" vavlve (like can be seen he
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_47..."
- 4 inch bore, 30 inch stroke cylinder
- 3.5 inch bore, 36 inch stroke cylinder


What works:
The engine, hydraulic pump, valve, and 4x30 cylinder are used as a log
splitter. Work great. No problems.


What does't work:
I disconnected the 4x30 cylinder and connected a 3.5 x 36 bore
cylinder for another project (with about 10 feet of hydraulic hose I
can use the logsplitter as a power supply for other hydraulic
projects, which is what I'm doing). Whereas on the logsplitter ram-
speed is not a concern, my current project is sensitive to ram speed.
When I move the handle of the spool slightly to move the ram at low
speed the ram moves very slowly, no problem, until it hits the load
and then the engine bogs and dies. However, when I move the handle to
full-open against the load the ram moves just fine, but way too fast
for my needs and control.


The problem is that I need to be able to control the speed of the
hydraulic ram in my current project but when I try to move the handle
of the vavle slightly, to move the ram slowly, it bogs the engine and
will kill it, under load.


It's got to be the valve or the pump, but I don't know enough about
these things to be sure which it is. I would guess the valve is the
problem, maybe restricting the fluid too much on partial
engagement....but I don't really understand the inner workings of
these things well enough to even form a theory.


Any help would be appreciated.


Thank you.


--HC


Log splitter valves are cheap n nasty and have no real need to
be able to feathered, ie used to choke the flow.
A solution and quite cheap, would be a Prince adjustable
flow control valve in your system:http://tinyurl.com/23btm3

Tom- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Thank you Tom for your reply, that might be the trick. After several
readings I'm going to attempt to adjust the bypass valve and see if
that makes a difference. I doubt it will since the engine doesn't die
when I have it against the end of the hydraulic cylinder travel, fully
stopped but with the valve fully open so the bypass must be working.
but it's a quick and cheap attempt to fix the problem. I have a
pressure gauge on the system so I can see where I set it. The
frustrating part is that, and I need to verify this, the pressure was
only a few hundred pounds when the valve was barely open and it was
killing the engine. Who knows. I need to verify my data by doing it
again and paying more attention.

Thank you for your suggestion.

--HC

  #8   Report Post  
Old August 6th 07, 06:27 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
HC HC is offline
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Aug 2007
Posts: 11
Default Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.

On Aug 6, 5:54 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Aug 6, 1:14 am, HC wrote:

Hello, all.
...
- ... Prince "Logsplitter" vavlve (like can be seen hehttp://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_47..."
...when I try to move the handle
of the vavle slightly, to move the ram slowly, it bogs the engine and
will kill it, under load...
--HC


There is an adjustable pressure relief valve under the hex cap beside
the control handle shaft. Put a *hydraulic pressure rated* tee and a
glycerin-filled 5000Lb pressure gauge at the pump outlet so you can
see what you're doing as you adjust it. The lowest pressure that moves
the load should give you the most control. I don't know the max safe
setting on your system.
Jim Wilkins



Thanks, Jim, for your reply. I have a 5k glycerin filled gauge on the
pump output line currently and will attempt the adjustment of the
bypass.

--HC

  #9   Report Post  
Old August 6th 07, 06:28 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
HC HC is offline
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Aug 2007
Posts: 11
Default Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.

On Aug 6, 9:41 am, Trevor Jones wrote:
HC wrote:
Hello, all.


Here's what I have:


- 8 HP Briggs & Stratton IC engine
- Haldex/Barnes 16 GPM direct drive hydraulic pump
- Prince "Logsplitter" vavlve (like can be seen he
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_47..."
- 4 inch bore, 30 inch stroke cylinder
- 3.5 inch bore, 36 inch stroke cylinder


What works:
The engine, hydraulic pump, valve, and 4x30 cylinder are used as a log
splitter. Work great. No problems.


What does't work:
I disconnected the 4x30 cylinder and connected a 3.5 x 36 bore
cylinder for another project (with about 10 feet of hydraulic hose I
can use the logsplitter as a power supply for other hydraulic
projects, which is what I'm doing). Whereas on the logsplitter ram-
speed is not a concern, my current project is sensitive to ram speed.
When I move the handle of the spool slightly to move the ram at low
speed the ram moves very slowly, no problem, until it hits the load
and then the engine bogs and dies. However, when I move the handle to
full-open against the load the ram moves just fine, but way too fast
for my needs and control.


The problem is that I need to be able to control the speed of the
hydraulic ram in my current project but when I try to move the handle
of the vavle slightly, to move the ram slowly, it bogs the engine and
will kill it, under load.


It's got to be the valve or the pump, but I don't know enough about
these things to be sure which it is. I would guess the valve is the
problem, maybe restricting the fluid too much on partial
engagement....but I don't really understand the inner workings of
these things well enough to even form a theory.


Any help would be appreciated.


Thank you.


--HC


I suspect the valve is not set up for partial flows.

Cheap fix. An adjustable resrtictor. If it causes the valve to kick
off. you may need to plumb in a bypass that allows some fluid to be
tapped off for work, with the rest recirculating.

More expensive, you may find it best to aquire a more suitable valve,
and plumb it in for use with external hookups. Splitters, pretty much,
don't require a lot of fine control.

Cheers
Trevor Jones- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Thank you, Trevor, someone else has suggested something similar and
I'm going to try that after I try the adjustment of the bypass. I may
see if I can lower the "shift" pressure on the two-stage pump, maybe
having it "down-shift" at a lower pressure would help.

--HC

  #10   Report Post  
Old August 6th 07, 06:34 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
HC HC is offline
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Aug 2007
Posts: 11
Default Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.

On Aug 6, 10:56 am, " wrote:
On Aug 6, 6:14 am, HC wrote:

Any help would be appreciated.


Thank you.


--HC


The pump you have is especially good for log splitters. It has two
pumps in one case. When the pressure needed is low, both pumps are
used and you get high volume. When the pressure needed is high, only
the smaller pump is used. This reduces the load on the engine.

Unfortunately it sounds as if you need a low flow all the time for
your second application. Without knowing what you are doing , it is a
bit difficult to make the best recommendation. But you might look at
some surplus catalogs and pick out a smaller constant flow pump and
maybe use an electric motor. The electric motor will run slower than
the gas engine so will slow down the speed of the cylinder. THe
smaller pump will also make things move slower.

Dan


Thanks for your reply, Dan. I have looked at a smaller pump but since
I don't know the displacement of my current pump, and the
manufacturer's website doesn't seem to have it, I don't know how small
is too small. I thought about using an electric over hydraulic system
but since I have a lot of money in the log splitter, and since I don't
use it, I thought I'd get some use out of it and save some money.

I'm putting in steel piers under my concrete foundation to fix it.
The house is built on clay and it varies elevation pretty wildly
depending on the weather. I'm in north central Texas, so we get some
wet times and some very dry times and it's hell on the house, cracking
walls and brick and such. It's 20k to pay professionals to do it,
it's about 5k of materials to do it myself.

--HC



Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Off topic : hydraulic cylinder repair RBM Home Repair 1 March 3rd 07 10:28 PM
Valve,Butterfly valve,Globe valve,Check valve,Ball valve,Plug valve,Marine valve,Gate valve,Flow control valve [email protected] UK diy 1 April 17th 06 09:29 AM
who wanted a smallish hydraulic cylinder? hand pump? stuff FA William B Noble (don't reply to this address) Metalworking 0 April 8th 06 01:19 AM
OT - Hydraulic Cylinder sources stone Metalworking 3 March 16th 06 05:24 PM
Hydraulic cylinder source? rich brenz Metalworking 14 March 4th 06 04:04 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:07 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2019 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"

 

Copyright © 2017