Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.
 

Hello, all.

Here's what I have:

- 8 HP Briggs & Stratton IC engine
- Haldex/Barnes 16 GPM direct drive hydraulic pump
- Prince "Logsplitter" vavlve (like can be seen he
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_472_472?cm_sp=Customer%20driven-_-Recently%20Viewed-_-Product%20Page"
- 4 inch bore, 30 inch stroke cylinder
- 3.5 inch bore, 36 inch stroke cylinder

What works:
The engine, hydraulic pump, valve, and 4x30 cylinder are used as a log
splitter. Work great. No problems.

What does't work:
I disconnected the 4x30 cylinder and connected a 3.5 x 36 bore
cylinder for another project (with about 10 feet of hydraulic hose I
can use the logsplitter as a power supply for other hydraulic
projects, which is what I'm doing). Whereas on the logsplitter ram-
speed is not a concern, my current project is sensitive to ram speed.
When I move the handle of the spool slightly to move the ram at low
speed the ram moves very slowly, no problem, until it hits the load
and then the engine bogs and dies. However, when I move the handle to
full-open against the load the ram moves just fine, but way too fast
for my needs and control.

The problem is that I need to be able to control the speed of the
hydraulic ram in my current project but when I try to move the handle
of the vavle slightly, to move the ram slowly, it bogs the engine and
will kill it, under load.

It's got to be the valve or the pump, but I don't know enough about
these things to be sure which it is. I would guess the valve is the
problem, maybe restricting the fluid too much on partial
engagement....but I don't really understand the inner workings of
these things well enough to even form a theory.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

--HC

Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.
 

id try more rotating mass on the engine side.

Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.
 

HC wrote:
Hello, all.

Here's what I have:

- 8 HP Briggs & Stratton IC engine
- Haldex/Barnes 16 GPM direct drive hydraulic pump
- Prince "Logsplitter" vavlve (like can be seen he
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_472_472?cm_sp=Customer%20driven-_-Recently%20Viewed-_-Product%20Page"
- 4 inch bore, 30 inch stroke cylinder
- 3.5 inch bore, 36 inch stroke cylinder

What works:
The engine, hydraulic pump, valve, and 4x30 cylinder are used as a log
splitter. Work great. No problems.

What does't work:
I disconnected the 4x30 cylinder and connected a 3.5 x 36 bore
cylinder for another project (with about 10 feet of hydraulic hose I
can use the logsplitter as a power supply for other hydraulic
projects, which is what I'm doing). Whereas on the logsplitter ram-
speed is not a concern, my current project is sensitive to ram speed.
When I move the handle of the spool slightly to move the ram at low
speed the ram moves very slowly, no problem, until it hits the load
and then the engine bogs and dies. However, when I move the handle to
full-open against the load the ram moves just fine, but way too fast
for my needs and control.

The problem is that I need to be able to control the speed of the
hydraulic ram in my current project but when I try to move the handle
of the vavle slightly, to move the ram slowly, it bogs the engine and
will kill it, under load.

It's got to be the valve or the pump, but I don't know enough about
these things to be sure which it is. I would guess the valve is the
problem, maybe restricting the fluid too much on partial
engagement....but I don't really understand the inner workings of
these things well enough to even form a theory.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

--HC


Log splitter valves are cheap n nasty and have no real need to
be able to feathered, ie used to choke the flow.
A solution and quite cheap, would be a Prince adjustable
flow control valve in your system:
http://tinyurl.com/23btm3

Tom

Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.
 

On Aug 6, 1:14 am, HC wrote:
Hello, all.
...
- ... Prince "Logsplitter" vavlve (like can be seen hehttp://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_47..."
...when I try to move the handle
of the vavle slightly, to move the ram slowly, it bogs the engine and
will kill it, under load...
--HC

There is an adjustable pressure relief valve under the hex cap beside
the control handle shaft. Put a *hydraulic pressure rated* tee and a
glycerin-filled 5000Lb pressure gauge at the pump outlet so you can
see what you're doing as you adjust it. The lowest pressure that moves
the load should give you the most control. I don't know the max safe
setting on your system.
Jim Wilkins

Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.
 

HC wrote:

Hello, all.

Here's what I have:

- 8 HP Briggs & Stratton IC engine
- Haldex/Barnes 16 GPM direct drive hydraulic pump
- Prince "Logsplitter" vavlve (like can be seen he
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_472_472?cm_sp=Customer%20driven-_-Recently%20Viewed-_-Product%20Page"
- 4 inch bore, 30 inch stroke cylinder
- 3.5 inch bore, 36 inch stroke cylinder

What works:
The engine, hydraulic pump, valve, and 4x30 cylinder are used as a log
splitter. Work great. No problems.

What does't work:
I disconnected the 4x30 cylinder and connected a 3.5 x 36 bore
cylinder for another project (with about 10 feet of hydraulic hose I
can use the logsplitter as a power supply for other hydraulic
projects, which is what I'm doing). Whereas on the logsplitter ram-
speed is not a concern, my current project is sensitive to ram speed.
When I move the handle of the spool slightly to move the ram at low
speed the ram moves very slowly, no problem, until it hits the load
and then the engine bogs and dies. However, when I move the handle to
full-open against the load the ram moves just fine, but way too fast
for my needs and control.

The problem is that I need to be able to control the speed of the
hydraulic ram in my current project but when I try to move the handle
of the vavle slightly, to move the ram slowly, it bogs the engine and
will kill it, under load.

It's got to be the valve or the pump, but I don't know enough about
these things to be sure which it is. I would guess the valve is the
problem, maybe restricting the fluid too much on partial
engagement....but I don't really understand the inner workings of
these things well enough to even form a theory.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

--HC

I suspect the valve is not set up for partial flows.

Cheap fix. An adjustable resrtictor. If it causes the valve to kick
off. you may need to plumb in a bypass that allows some fluid to be
tapped off for work, with the rest recirculating.

More expensive, you may find it best to aquire a more suitable valve,
and plumb it in for use with external hookups. Splitters, pretty much,
don't require a lot of fine control.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.
 

On Aug 6, 6:14 am, HC wrote:

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

--HC

The pump you have is especially good for log splitters. It has two
pumps in one case. When the pressure needed is low, both pumps are
used and you get high volume. When the pressure needed is high, only
the smaller pump is used. This reduces the load on the engine.

Unfortunately it sounds as if you need a low flow all the time for
your second application. Without knowing what you are doing , it is a
bit difficult to make the best recommendation. But you might look at
some surplus catalogs and pick out a smaller constant flow pump and
maybe use an electric motor. The electric motor will run slower than
the gas engine so will slow down the speed of the cylinder. THe
smaller pump will also make things move slower.


Dan

Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.
 

On Aug 6, 1:47 am, Tom wrote:
HC wrote:
Hello, all.

Here's what I have:

- 8 HP Briggs & Stratton IC engine
- Haldex/Barnes 16 GPM direct drive hydraulic pump
- Prince "Logsplitter" vavlve (like can be seen he
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_47..."
- 4 inch bore, 30 inch stroke cylinder
- 3.5 inch bore, 36 inch stroke cylinder

What works:
The engine, hydraulic pump, valve, and 4x30 cylinder are used as a log
splitter. Work great. No problems.

What does't work:
I disconnected the 4x30 cylinder and connected a 3.5 x 36 bore
cylinder for another project (with about 10 feet of hydraulic hose I
can use the logsplitter as a power supply for other hydraulic
projects, which is what I'm doing). Whereas on the logsplitter ram-
speed is not a concern, my current project is sensitive to ram speed.
When I move the handle of the spool slightly to move the ram at low
speed the ram moves very slowly, no problem, until it hits the load
and then the engine bogs and dies. However, when I move the handle to
full-open against the load the ram moves just fine, but way too fast
for my needs and control.

The problem is that I need to be able to control the speed of the
hydraulic ram in my current project but when I try to move the handle
of the vavle slightly, to move the ram slowly, it bogs the engine and
will kill it, under load.

It's got to be the valve or the pump, but I don't know enough about
these things to be sure which it is. I would guess the valve is the
problem, maybe restricting the fluid too much on partial
engagement....but I don't really understand the inner workings of
these things well enough to even form a theory.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

--HC

Log splitter valves are cheap n nasty and have no real need to
be able to feathered, ie used to choke the flow.
A solution and quite cheap, would be a Prince adjustable
flow control valve in your system:http://tinyurl.com/23btm3

Tom- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you Tom for your reply, that might be the trick. After several
readings I'm going to attempt to adjust the bypass valve and see if
that makes a difference. I doubt it will since the engine doesn't die
when I have it against the end of the hydraulic cylinder travel, fully
stopped but with the valve fully open so the bypass must be working.
but it's a quick and cheap attempt to fix the problem. I have a
pressure gauge on the system so I can see where I set it. The
frustrating part is that, and I need to verify this, the pressure was
only a few hundred pounds when the valve was barely open and it was
killing the engine. Who knows. I need to verify my data by doing it
again and paying more attention.

Thank you for your suggestion.

--HC

Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.
 

On Aug 6, 5:54 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Aug 6, 1:14 am, HC wrote:

Hello, all.
...
- ... Prince "Logsplitter" vavlve (like can be seen hehttp://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_47..."
...when I try to move the handle
of the vavle slightly, to move the ram slowly, it bogs the engine and
will kill it, under load...
--HC

There is an adjustable pressure relief valve under the hex cap beside
the control handle shaft. Put a *hydraulic pressure rated* tee and a
glycerin-filled 5000Lb pressure gauge at the pump outlet so you can
see what you're doing as you adjust it. The lowest pressure that moves
the load should give you the most control. I don't know the max safe
setting on your system.
Jim Wilkins


Thanks, Jim, for your reply. I have a 5k glycerin filled gauge on the
pump output line currently and will attempt the adjustment of the
bypass.

--HC

Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.
 

On Aug 6, 9:41 am, Trevor Jones wrote:
HC wrote:
Hello, all.

Here's what I have:

- 8 HP Briggs & Stratton IC engine
- Haldex/Barnes 16 GPM direct drive hydraulic pump
- Prince "Logsplitter" vavlve (like can be seen he
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_47..."
- 4 inch bore, 30 inch stroke cylinder
- 3.5 inch bore, 36 inch stroke cylinder

What works:
The engine, hydraulic pump, valve, and 4x30 cylinder are used as a log
splitter. Work great. No problems.

What does't work:
I disconnected the 4x30 cylinder and connected a 3.5 x 36 bore
cylinder for another project (with about 10 feet of hydraulic hose I
can use the logsplitter as a power supply for other hydraulic
projects, which is what I'm doing). Whereas on the logsplitter ram-
speed is not a concern, my current project is sensitive to ram speed.
When I move the handle of the spool slightly to move the ram at low
speed the ram moves very slowly, no problem, until it hits the load
and then the engine bogs and dies. However, when I move the handle to
full-open against the load the ram moves just fine, but way too fast
for my needs and control.

The problem is that I need to be able to control the speed of the
hydraulic ram in my current project but when I try to move the handle
of the vavle slightly, to move the ram slowly, it bogs the engine and
will kill it, under load.

It's got to be the valve or the pump, but I don't know enough about
these things to be sure which it is. I would guess the valve is the
problem, maybe restricting the fluid too much on partial
engagement....but I don't really understand the inner workings of
these things well enough to even form a theory.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

--HC

I suspect the valve is not set up for partial flows.

Cheap fix. An adjustable resrtictor. If it causes the valve to kick
off. you may need to plumb in a bypass that allows some fluid to be
tapped off for work, with the rest recirculating.

More expensive, you may find it best to aquire a more suitable valve,
and plumb it in for use with external hookups. Splitters, pretty much,
don't require a lot of fine control.

Cheers
Trevor Jones- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you, Trevor, someone else has suggested something similar and
I'm going to try that after I try the adjustment of the bypass. I may
see if I can lower the "shift" pressure on the two-stage pump, maybe
having it "down-shift" at a lower pressure would help.

--HC

Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.
 

On Aug 6, 10:56 am, " wrote:
On Aug 6, 6:14 am, HC wrote:

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

--HC

The pump you have is especially good for log splitters. It has two
pumps in one case. When the pressure needed is low, both pumps are
used and you get high volume. When the pressure needed is high, only
the smaller pump is used. This reduces the load on the engine.

Unfortunately it sounds as if you need a low flow all the time for
your second application. Without knowing what you are doing , it is a
bit difficult to make the best recommendation. But you might look at
some surplus catalogs and pick out a smaller constant flow pump and
maybe use an electric motor. The electric motor will run slower than
the gas engine so will slow down the speed of the cylinder. THe
smaller pump will also make things move slower.

Dan

Thanks for your reply, Dan. I have looked at a smaller pump but since
I don't know the displacement of my current pump, and the
manufacturer's website doesn't seem to have it, I don't know how small
is too small. I thought about using an electric over hydraulic system
but since I have a lot of money in the log splitter, and since I don't
use it, I thought I'd get some use out of it and save some money.

I'm putting in steel piers under my concrete foundation to fix it.
The house is built on clay and it varies elevation pretty wildly
depending on the weather. I'm in north central Texas, so we get some
wet times and some very dry times and it's hell on the house, cracking
walls and brick and such. It's 20k to pay professionals to do it,
it's about 5k of materials to do it myself.

--HC

Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.
 

On Aug 6, 12:14 am, HC wrote:
Hello, all.

Here's what I have:

- 8 HP Briggs & Stratton IC engine
- Haldex/Barnes 16 GPM direct drive hydraulic pump
- Prince "Logsplitter" vavlve (like can be seen hehttp://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_47..."
- 4 inch bore, 30 inch stroke cylinder
- 3.5 inch bore, 36 inch stroke cylinder

What works:
The engine, hydraulic pump, valve, and 4x30 cylinder are used as a log
splitter. Work great. No problems.

What does't work:
I disconnected the 4x30 cylinder and connected a 3.5 x 36 bore
cylinder for another project (with about 10 feet of hydraulic hose I
can use the logsplitter as a power supply for other hydraulic
projects, which is what I'm doing). Whereas on the logsplitter ram-
speed is not a concern, my current project is sensitive to ram speed.
When I move the handle of the spool slightly to move the ram at low
speed the ram moves very slowly, no problem, until it hits the load
and then the engine bogs and dies. However, when I move the handle to
full-open against the load the ram moves just fine, but way too fast
for my needs and control.

The problem is that I need to be able to control the speed of the
hydraulic ram in my current project but when I try to move the handle
of the vavle slightly, to move the ram slowly, it bogs the engine and
will kill it, under load.

It's got to be the valve or the pump, but I don't know enough about
these things to be sure which it is. I would guess the valve is the
problem, maybe restricting the fluid too much on partial
engagement....but I don't really understand the inner workings of
these things well enough to even form a theory.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

--HC

I finally found that the Haldex/Barnes 2 stage pump I have (the 16 GPM
model) has a large-volume pump of, I don't remember the exact figure,
but it's about 0.7 cubic inches...maybe 0.756 or so. The small-volume
pump is, and this I remember accurately, is 0.258 cubic inches. So,
with that knowledge I bough the smallest pump that I could find from
my supplier that used the same shaft, rotation, and mounting as the 16
GPM two stage. That pump has a 0.194 cubic inch displacement. I
rigged it up on the engine and to my assemblies and ran it with NO
problems at all, even at full pressure, 2,250 PSI. The engine did not
lug or bog at all! I then adjusted the bypass on the valve to a
higher pressure. Not knowing how fine the adjustment would be I
attempted a half rotation on the adjustment and then applied pressure
to the cylinder. It ran over 3,000 PSI and I immediately let off the
valve to return to center. But the engine had no problem with that
pressure. I adjusted it finally to 2,750 PSI on the bypass, 250 PSI
over the max working limit of the cylinder otherwise I'd set it to
3,000 PSI, and left it there. I can run the cylinder to load and stop
the cylinder, with 2,750 PSI on the gauge, and the engine runs fine.
So, either going from a 0.258 CI pump to a 0.194 CI pump really makes
that much difference (it's a 25% reduction in volume) OR the two stage
pump wasn't properly (if it ever would or could) shutting off the
large-volume pump portion. I have a hard time thinking the 0.258 CI
would KILL the engine at a load of 2,250 PSI and that the 0.194 CI
pump wouldn't even bog it at over 3,000 PSI. I think that two stage
pump is okay for a log splitter where there is no way a log is going
to be able to resist any where near 2,250 PSI on a 4 inch bore
cylinder and therefore won't ever really load the engine down, but is
a poor choice for where full power operation may be necessary.

Thanks again for all your help and input. I hope the results above
will help somebody else.

--HC

Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.
 

In article . com,
HC wrote:

pressure. I adjusted it finally to 2,750 PSI on the bypass, 250 PSI
over the max working limit of the cylinder otherwise I'd set it to
3,000 PSI, and left it there. I can run the cylinder to load and stop
the cylinder, with 2,750 PSI on the gauge

Which part of "Max Working limit" are you not getting?

With a 2500 PSI working limit, a bypass at 2499 PSI or less is called
for...

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Hydraulic cylinder/valve problem, help please.
 

On Aug 25, 11:30 am, HC wrote:
... I think that two stage
pump is okay for a log splitter where there is no way a log is going
to be able to resist any where near 2,250 PSI on a 4 inch bore
cylinder and therefore won't ever really load the engine down, but is
a poor choice for where full power operation may be necessary.

Glad to hear this is working for you. Some of the red oak I burn will
definitely resist my 3-1/2" splitter at 2500PSI and needs to be cut
with a chainsaw.

The two-stage bypass in my hydraulic pump is a spring-loaded ball
valve that opens at about 600PSI. The pump wasn't too bad to open up
and work on when I replaced a bearing. I suggest having someone else
with clean hands photograph it during disassembly so you can
reassemble the pieces in the correct order.

I recently watched Jewel on Soundstage and was very impressed. Looking
her up lead to Ty Murray and his ranch in Stephenville and how much he
likes that part of north central Texas. Are you anywhere nearby?

jw