In case anyone was wondering, rebar is indeed any composition. Tonight I
was forging on some and out of curiosity, cheezily heat treated one end
(brought it to orange heat, quenched, reheated for a little longer than it
took the water to boil off to sorta temper). Took a strike with the hammer
and sure enough it broke. Spark test reveals something like 1040 but it
must have some other alloying elements since it bears some resemblence to
higher alloy steel (wrench stock for instance).

So yes, it's real crappy material. On the other hand. It can be hardened.
What a scary thought, toolbits forged from rebar. Hmmmm. But still........

Tim

--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
In case anyone was wondering, rebar is indeed any composition. Tonight I
was forging on some and out of curiosity, cheezily heat treated one end
(brought it to orange heat, quenched, reheated for a little longer than it
took the water to boil off to sorta temper). Took a strike with the
hammer
and sure enough it broke. Spark test reveals something like 1040 but it
must have some other alloying elements since it bears some resemblence to
higher alloy steel (wrench stock for instance).

So yes, it's real crappy material. On the other hand. It can be
hardened.
What a scary thought, toolbits forged from rebar. Hmmmm. But
still........

Tim

Not necessarily true, Tim. Rebar is available in heat treatable grades, so
you may have landed on a piece of it. I recently had to weld some #5 bars
to the top of a support beam, upon which I would place the blocks we're
using to build our house. Before welding the rebar, I heated one to red heat
and plunged it in water to be certain it wasn't medium carbon. It was just
as soft after heating and quenching as it was before hand. The welding
went well.

Harold

"Tim Williams" wrote in message ...
In case anyone was wondering, rebar is indeed any composition. Tonight I
was forging on some and out of curiosity, cheezily heat treated one end
(brought it to orange heat, quenched, reheated for a little longer than it
took the water to boil off to sorta temper). Took a strike with the hammer
and sure enough it broke. Spark test reveals something like 1040 but it
must have some other alloying elements since it bears some resemblence to
higher alloy steel (wrench stock for instance).

So yes, it's real crappy material. On the other hand. It can be hardened.
What a scary thought, toolbits forged from rebar. Hmmmm. But still........

Tim

I mentioned making something out of some old 1" rebar chunks I had to
an old friend who was a machinist at one time in his life. He told me
that "Rebar is harder than a whore's heart" I have always figured
that that was the result of workhardening from rolling the bumps on
the outside. I guess my question to you is not whether it will harden,
but whether or not heating it to red and letting it cool down will
result in something machinable. I have never tried it.

brownnsharp

On 3 Mar 2004 04:25:03 -0800, (brownnsharp) wrote:

==="Tim Williams" wrote in message ...
=== In case anyone was wondering, rebar is indeed any composition. Tonight I
=== was forging on some and out of curiosity, cheezily heat treated one end
=== (brought it to orange heat, quenched, reheated for a little longer than it
=== took the water to boil off to sorta temper). Took a strike with the hammer
=== and sure enough it broke. Spark test reveals something like 1040 but it
=== must have some other alloying elements since it bears some resemblence to
=== higher alloy steel (wrench stock for instance).
===
=== So yes, it's real crappy material. On the other hand. It can be hardened.
=== What a scary thought, toolbits forged from rebar. Hmmmm. But still........
===
=== Tim
===
===I mentioned making something out of some old 1" rebar chunks I had to
===an old friend who was a machinist at one time in his life. He told me
===that "Rebar is harder than a whore's heart" I have always figured
===that that was the result of workhardening from rolling the bumps on
===the outside. I guess my question to you is not whether it will harden,
===but whether or not heating it to red and letting it cool down will
===result in something machinable. I have never tried it.
===
===brownnsharp

There is all kinds of grades of rebar. Lots of the stuff commonly sold
by home builder supply stores is very questionable as to what it
actually is. I have run up against some rebar that refused to take a
good weld and others that welded as nice as could be. Some I could
bend in a tight bend and others that would show signs of cracking.
Buying rebar from a steel supplier and knowing the actual specs of the
stuff is much better than buying rebar whose specs are unknown which
is common for lots of stuff sold by home builder suppliers as compared
to a real steel supplier. Lots of that stuff is imported junk of
unknown alloys just fasioned into typical rebar shape for sale to the
general consumer without regards to alloy spec, and used for staking
landscape timbers, etc down.

Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wifes,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

Normally rebar is not considered weldable. Weldable rebar actually has
"weldable " imprinted on it along with the ribs.
I have made crude chisels and centerpunches using this material.
It must be remembered that structural grades of steel do not specify
composition like SAE alloy numbers. There are ranges and limits on certain
components but what is more important is the strength and yield points. How
you get to that specification is the manufacturer's choice.
For example a heavy thick section of beam will have more carbon in it
that an small two inch angle iron. After coming off the rolling line one
will cool to black in seconds while the other will take hours.
Randy


"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
In case anyone was wondering, rebar is indeed any composition. Tonight I
was forging on some and out of curiosity, cheezily heat treated one end
(brought it to orange heat, quenched, reheated for a little longer than it
took the water to boil off to sorta temper). Took a strike with the
hammer
and sure enough it broke. Spark test reveals something like 1040 but it
must have some other alloying elements since it bears some resemblence to
higher alloy steel (wrench stock for instance).

So yes, it's real crappy material. On the other hand. It can be
hardened.
What a scary thought, toolbits forged from rebar. Hmmmm. But
still........

Tim

--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

What the other guys said!

I talked to the metalugist at North Star Steel in St. Paul about
the issue. When they run the common Grade 40 and Grade 60 rebar,
the only thing they have to hit is 40,000psi and 60,000psi
respectively. Easiest way to get the 60,000 number is to let the
carbon content float up to the .4 to .6% range. And this stuff
will be unweldable, might be good for jackhammer bits!

You can buy weldable rebar, it should have 'weldable' impressed
in the side every few feet. Keep in mind that SOME of the common
rebar is weldable, just that you cannot be sure when you buy a
bundle. And just because you get it from a commercial supplier
does not mean you will be getting different stock than Home Depot.

BTW: The steel process is something to watch! 30 cars in, 60,000
pounds of molten steel out 4 hours later. Alloy ingredients show
up in a wheelbarrow. Pour steel into continuous molds (copper
with water cooling) 60' high. Cut the 4-1/2" square stock into
20' billets, send to the rolling mill. Cutting torch does not
need a preheat flame, picture a pure O2 blast hitting white hot
steel. Big boys have big toys!!!

Tim Williams wrote:

In case anyone was wondering, rebar is indeed any composition. Tonight I
was forging on some and out of curiosity, cheezily heat treated one end
(brought it to orange heat, quenched, reheated for a little longer than it
took the water to boil off to sorta temper). Took a strike with the hammer
and sure enough it broke. Spark test reveals something like 1040 but it
must have some other alloying elements since it bears some resemblence to
higher alloy steel (wrench stock for instance).

So yes, it's real crappy material. On the other hand. It can be hardened.
What a scary thought, toolbits forged from rebar. Hmmmm. But still........

Tim

--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
In case anyone was wondering, rebar is indeed any composition. Tonight I
was forging on some and out of curiosity, cheezily heat treated one end
(brought it to orange heat, quenched, reheated for a little longer than it
took the water to boil off to sorta temper). Took a strike with the
hammer
and sure enough it broke. Spark test reveals something like 1040 but it
must have some other alloying elements since it bears some resemblence to
higher alloy steel (wrench stock for instance).

So yes, it's real crappy material. On the other hand. It can be
hardened.
What a scary thought, toolbits forged from rebar. Hmmmm. But
still........

Tim


The question that begs to be asked is, what grade of rebar are you talking
about? A-615, A-616, A-617, A-706, multi grade A706/A616?
ASTM would probably dissagree with your conclusions that "rebar" (of
unspecified type) is crappy material, as it has performed it's intended task
for decades with very few failures.
I have a very nice Sand's aluminum level on my truck that I bought as an
apprentice and it has served me well for years. If you were to heat it and
beat it into a chisel, you would be sorely dissapointed, and maybe call it
junk, but as a level it's a real doozie.So that's what I use it for, mostly
g.
All of the rebar grades are weldable using the proper procedure, A709 or
multi grade is normally specified when a lot of welding is to be done. It
will have a W stamped on it, or a W and a S if it's multi grade. These two
types are easily welded with little or no preheat, depending on the size of
the bar and ambient temp. The others take more time and trouble, but are
weldable nonetheless. AWS D1.4 welding code addresses this pretty well.

regards,
JTMcC.



--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Huh...didn't know rebar came in different grades, nor that it's *meant* to
have carbon and hardness in it... All I knew was pretty much from a past
thread here including similarly disparaging comments about A36. ;-)

Tim

--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
In case anyone was wondering, rebar is indeed any composition. Tonight I
was forging on some and out of curiosity, cheezily heat treated one end
(brought it to orange heat, quenched, reheated for a little longer than it
took the water to boil off to sorta temper). Took a strike with the
hammer
and sure enough it broke. Spark test reveals something like 1040 but it
must have some other alloying elements since it bears some resemblence to
higher alloy steel (wrench stock for instance).

So yes, it's real crappy material. On the other hand. It can be
hardened.
What a scary thought, toolbits forged from rebar. Hmmmm. But
still........

Tim

--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
Huh...didn't know rebar came in different grades, nor that it's *meant* to
have carbon and hardness in it... All I knew was pretty much from a past
thread here including similarly disparaging comments about A36. ;-)

Tim

If it makes you feel any better, it's one of the greatest of all welding
myths.

JTMcC.




--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
In case anyone was wondering, rebar is indeed any composition. Tonight
I
was forging on some and out of curiosity, cheezily heat treated one end
(brought it to orange heat, quenched, reheated for a little longer than
it
took the water to boil off to sorta temper). Took a strike with the
hammer
and sure enough it broke. Spark test reveals something like 1040 but it
must have some other alloying elements since it bears some resemblence
to
higher alloy steel (wrench stock for instance).

So yes, it's real crappy material. On the other hand. It can be
hardened.
What a scary thought, toolbits forged from rebar. Hmmmm. But
still........

Tim

--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

When I was a construction engineer in El Paso 50 years ago, a friend of mine
helped some Mexicans in Juarez with their re-bar mfg.plant---they'd take a
sample
bar from a heat and try to bend it---if it snapped-(usually after a much harder
pull to bend) --he'd tell 'em " too many crankshafts in that batch "--

Rebar has to be able to be bent--so it can be placed in forms, turn corners,
return bends at the end of beams, etc.

Tim Williams wrote:

In case anyone was wondering, rebar is indeed any composition. Tonight I
was forging on some and out of curiosity, cheezily heat treated one end
(brought it to orange heat, quenched, reheated for a little longer than it
took the water to boil off to sorta temper). Took a strike with the hammer
and sure enough it broke. Spark test reveals something like 1040 but it
must have some other alloying elements since it bears some resemblence to
higher alloy steel (wrench stock for instance).

So yes, it's real crappy material. On the other hand. It can be hardened.
What a scary thought, toolbits forged from rebar. Hmmmm. But still........

Tim

--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

I have been hauling scrap to a steel company in Cincinnati. They cast
the long square bars and stockpile them for rolling, but they also
have mountains of railroad axles which they put into the rolling mill
with no alteration. I've seen truckloads of rebar leaving with heat
mirage coming from them. I wonder what specific grade of rebar they
get from the axles?
Paul

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 00:40:24 -0600, "Tim Williams"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

I have _specs_ from BHP mregarding rebar. I get the impression it's
case-hardened, with an underlying medium-carbon steel

They are this specific.

Locational Tack Welds Electrode Type
Under-matching strength electrodes are preferred but matching strength
may be used.
Weld Length
Not less than the size of the smaller bar.
General Notes
These are usually used for positioning and holding purposes, and in
prefabricated elements.
They must not be used for lifting purposes unless prior approval has
been obtained from
the design engineer (see AS/NZS 1554.3). They do not affect the
strength of 500PLUS.
Double Sided Lap Welds Electrode Type
500PLUS Rebar produced by the TEMPCORE process has a carbon equivalent
(CE) limit of 0.39 max
and, as such, requires no pre-heating prior to welding.
Microalloyed 500PLUS coiled rebar has a carbon equivalent limit of
0.44 max, however, will still not
require pre-heating when welded in accordance with the revised Welding
Standard AS/NZS1554 part 3.

**** Other manufacturers’ 500 MPa reinforcing steel may be made to
higher CE limits and pre-heating may then be required in certain
circumstances e.g. for tack & lap welding of larger bars.****

Users should also be aware that hydrogen controlled electrodes will be
required for all weld types, and
matching strength electrodes will be required for butt welds.

etc.

Maybe there's rebar and rebar.

In case anyone was wondering, rebar is indeed any composition. Tonight I
was forging on some and out of curiosity, cheezily heat treated one end

************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Spike....Spike? Hello?

I work for a rebar fabricating plant (not a mill) and if anyone is really interested in mill reports, I will see if I can make a few copies and post the results.
Most rebar used in construction is a grade 60.

Brent
"Old Nick" wrote in message ...
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 00:40:24 -0600, "Tim Williams"
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:

I have _specs_ from BHP mregarding rebar. I get the impression it's
case-hardened, with an underlying medium-carbon steel

They are this specific.

Locational Tack Welds Electrode Type
Under-matching strength electrodes are preferred but matching strength
may be used.
Weld Length
Not less than the size of the smaller bar.
General Notes
These are usually used for positioning and holding purposes, and in
prefabricated elements.
They must not be used for lifting purposes unless prior approval has
been obtained from
the design engineer (see AS/NZS 1554.3). They do not affect the
strength of 500PLUS.
Double Sided Lap Welds Electrode Type
500PLUS Rebar produced by the TEMPCORE process has a carbon equivalent
(CE) limit of 0.39 max
and, as such, requires no pre-heating prior to welding.
Microalloyed 500PLUS coiled rebar has a carbon equivalent limit of
0.44 max, however, will still not
require pre-heating when welded in accordance with the revised Welding
Standard AS/NZS1554 part 3.

**** Other manufacturers' 500 MPa reinforcing steel may be made to
higher CE limits and pre-heating may then be required in certain
circumstances e.g. for tack & lap welding of larger bars.****

Users should also be aware that hydrogen controlled electrodes will be
required for all weld types, and
matching strength electrodes will be required for butt welds.

etc.

Maybe there's rebar and rebar.

In case anyone was wondering, rebar is indeed any composition. Tonight I
was forging on some and out of curiosity, cheezily heat treated one end

************************************************** ** sorry

.........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Spike....Spike? Hello?

"Brent" wrote in message
. com...
I work for a rebar fabricating plant (not a mill) and if anyone is really
interested in mill reports, I will see if I can make a few copies and post
the results.
Most rebar used in construction is a grade 60.

Is it true they use car snouts and ground up truck guts to make rebar?

Joel. phx

Joel,
I have a question. On a construction site, when rebar is used to
reinforce cement pours, is the rebar welded or wired together?

Or does it vary depending on the pour?

Thanks,
Carl

"Joel Corwith" wrote in message
...

"Brent" wrote in message
. com...
I work for a rebar fabricating plant (not a mill) and if anyone is really
interested in mill reports, I will see if I can make a few copies and post
the results.
Most rebar used in construction is a grade 60.

Is it true they use car snouts and ground up truck guts to make rebar?

Joel. phx

"Carl Hoffmeyer" wrote in message
...
Joel,
I have a question. On a construction site, when rebar is used to
reinforce cement pours, is the rebar welded or wired together?

Or does it vary depending on the pour?

I'm not in the industry (perhaps you meant Brent), but I know of no
application where I've seen them weld it. In all the residential and few
commercial projects I've seen pours for it's been wire ties. Even the big
cages I've watched them build for high voltage towers and elevated roadway
pylons were tied.

Joel. phx


Thanks,
Carl

"Joel Corwith" wrote in message
...

"Brent" wrote in message
. com...
I work for a rebar fabricating plant (not a mill) and if anyone is
really
interested in mill reports, I will see if I can make a few copies and
post
the results.
Most rebar used in construction is a grade 60.

Is it true they use car snouts and ground up truck guts to make rebar?


Joel. phx

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 22:36:47 GMT, "Carl Hoffmeyer"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

I have not seen them weld onsite, but have seen them use pre-bent and
welded shapes for colums etc

Joel,
I have a question. On a construction site, when rebar is used to
reinforce cement pours, is the rebar welded or wired together?

Or does it vary depending on the pour?

Thanks,
Carl

************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Does Bill Gates dream of electronic sheep?

the rebar in the overpass supports here in Calif are welded to help avoid
pancaking in an earthquake

"Cheap R Us" wrote in message
...

"Carl Hoffmeyer" wrote in message
...
Joel,
I have a question. On a construction site, when rebar is used to
reinforce cement pours, is the rebar welded or wired together?

Or does it vary depending on the pour?

I'm not in the industry (perhaps you meant Brent), but I know of no
application where I've seen them weld it. In all the residential and few
commercial projects I've seen pours for it's been wire ties. Even the big
cages I've watched them build for high voltage towers and elevated roadway
pylons were tied.

Joel. phx


Thanks,
Carl

"Joel Corwith" wrote in message
...

"Brent" wrote in message
. com...
I work for a rebar fabricating plant (not a mill) and if anyone is
really
interested in mill reports, I will see if I can make a few copies and
post
the results.
Most rebar used in construction is a grade 60.

Is it true they use car snouts and ground up truck guts to make rebar?


Joel. phx

There is a specific grade of rebar certified for welding and it has a "W"
code stamped in
the grade section (rebar is classified by its tensile strength).

Rebar that is not labeled as weldable should not be welded as the steel may
have impurities which can lead to brittle weld failures.

Normally rebar is tied in place only to resist the placing of concrete. The
placement of rebar is designed to transfer loads through the concrete bond
between rebars. For this to occur there has to sufficent "development
length" or over lap between spliced bars, typically so many times the bar
diameter ( about 30 diameters should be ok)

I heard about a fellow that built his own concrete pool who after tying the
rebar in place thought that he would make it better by welding it but the
inspector failed the installation on seeing the welds ....



I have not seen them weld onsite, but have seen them use pre-bent and
welded shapes for colums etc

Joel,
I have a question. On a construction site, when rebar is used to
reinforce cement pours, is the rebar welded or wired together?

Or does it vary depending on the pour?

Thanks,
Carl

************************************************** ** sorry

.........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Does Bill Gates dream of electronic sheep?