I plan on buying a "Voltage Master" 5 KW generator (3600 RPM) that I will
power from my tractor front PTO. I would like to run the tractor at about
1600 RPM so will have to "gear up" by about 2.25/1. Question is, should I
use a V belt or roller chain?? I suppose either would work but each has
advantages and I wonder what would be best overall.

BTW, the no-name 6 KW diesel gen sets at the auction I was looking at went
for $1,200 so I passed.

TIA for any suggestions.

Laurie Forbes

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:52:10 GMT, "Laurie Forbes"
wrote:

I plan on buying a "Voltage Master" 5 KW generator (3600 RPM) that I will
power from my tractor front PTO. I would like to run the tractor at about
1600 RPM so will have to "gear up" by about 2.25/1. Question is, should I
use a V belt or roller chain?? I suppose either would work but each has
advantages and I wonder what would be best overall.

BTW, the no-name 6 KW diesel gen sets at the auction I was looking at went
for $1,200 so I passed.

TIA for any suggestions.

Laurie Forbes


Belt

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Laurie Forbes wrote:
1600 RPM so will have to "gear up" by about 2.25/1. Question is, should I
use a V belt or roller chain??


Laurie, I would go to an ag equipment graveyard and look for a set of
two- or three-V pulleys no smaller than 10" and 4". If you are careful
with alignment and tension, your setup will last longer than the
bearings and run quietly. No lubrication requirements, great freedom
from dust/dirt problems, cheap parts available everywhere.

--
Fred R
________________
Drop TROU to email.

Your 5kw converts to 6.7 hp, so a single "V" belt should work. I think
the rule is 10hp per "V" belt. As others have pointed out a belt needs
no lube, where any chain drive will need it. Have you looked at the PTO
gear drives available to mate generators to tractor PTOs?

Paul

Laurie Forbes wrote:
I plan on buying a "Voltage Master" 5 KW generator (3600 RPM) that I will
power from my tractor front PTO. I would like to run the tractor at about
1600 RPM so will have to "gear up" by about 2.25/1. Question is, should I
use a V belt or roller chain?? I suppose either would work but each has
advantages and I wonder what would be best overall.

BTW, the no-name 6 KW diesel gen sets at the auction I was looking at went
for $1,200 so I passed.

TIA for any suggestions.

Laurie Forbes

Laurie Forbes wrote:

I would like to run the tractor at about 1600 RPM so will have to "gear
up" by about 2.25/1. Question is, should I use a V belt or roller chain??

As others sayed: Belt!
A roller chain is loud, costy and needs lubrification. If you look a
v-belt manufacturers site, you will find some formula to calculate the
necessary size (depending on kind of load, rpm, ratio and power).
A roller chain is OK if you require defined phase between the two
shafts.
Somehow roller chains are getting out of style ...


Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO - YADRO - Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige

"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:eM%of.8468$ic1.181@edtnps90...
I plan on buying a "Voltage Master" 5 KW generator (3600 RPM) that I will
power from my tractor front PTO. I would like to run the tractor at about
1600 RPM so will have to "gear up" by about 2.25/1. Question is, should I
use a V belt or roller chain?? I suppose either would work but each has
advantages and I wonder what would be best overall.

BTW, the no-name 6 KW diesel gen sets at the auction I was looking at went
for $1,200 so I passed.

TIA for any suggestions.

Laurie Forbes



Belts are more forgiving to misalignment of the two shafts and have the
advantage that no lubrication is required. More importantly, if the load
suddenly increases ( a jam in the generator or similar failure) the belts
will (usually) slip before damaging the prime mover. On the other hand,
belts often slip when you don't want them to so they need to be adjusted or
an automatic tensioner installed.

Chains will deliver more horsepower per pound, but require relatively close
alignment of the two shafts and periodic maintenance (lubrication).
Sprockets for chain drives are marginally more difficult to come by than
pulleys, but not impossible. Chain drives are usually more noisy than belts
and are less tolerant of dirt and dust. Chains are usually used where
positive motion is required (no slip) and tend to be more expensive.

Hope this helps.

Kelly Jones PE

Laurie Forbes wrote:
I plan on buying a "Voltage Master" 5 KW generator (3600 RPM) that I will
power from my tractor front PTO. I would like to run the tractor at about
1600 RPM so will have to "gear up" by about 2.25/1. Question is, should I
use a V belt or roller chain?? I suppose either would work but each has
advantages and I wonder what would be best overall.

A couple votes against roller chain:
1. They're loud.
2. They need lubrication.
3. For relatively high speed applications like what you're doing, I
consider roller chain more dangerous than belting. Low speed apps
(e.g. forklift masts) are fine, but I don't like chain when it's moving
fast because the stuff magnetically attracts human flesh.
4. On a toothed cog, a chain cannot slip. You must have a clutch
elsewhere in the system.
5. Roller chain is more expensive than belting.

Generator sets tend to be so loud that it won't matter, but if you want
to quiet down a belt system further, there's something called a link
belt that runs on most sizes of v-belt pulleys. It is noticably
quieter than v-belts, which are quieter than chains. Here's a
reference to one manufacturer, mostly just to show a pictu

http://www.fennerdrives.com/nutlink_..._supt_home.asp

Hope this helps,
Dave

Mulitple belts, preferably matched...DO NOT DO CHAIN!!!

"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:eM%of.8468$ic1.181@edtnps90...
I plan on buying a "Voltage Master" 5 KW generator (3600 RPM) that I will
power from my tractor front PTO. I would like to run the tractor at about
1600 RPM so will have to "gear up" by about 2.25/1. Question is, should I
use a V belt or roller chain?? I suppose either would work but each has
advantages and I wonder what would be best overall.

BTW, the no-name 6 KW diesel gen sets at the auction I was looking at went
for $1,200 so I passed.

TIA for any suggestions.

Laurie Forbes

I used a cogged belt setup that worked real nice. It does not have to be as
tight as the V belt so these less power loss/ better fuel savings. I was
lucky to fined a belt/ pulleys for what I needed. I was doing a 2:1 ratio so
the timing belt/pulleys are perfect. 2:1 to the dot, they last a long time
too.
"Laurie Forbes" wrote in message
news:eM%of.8468$ic1.181@edtnps90...
I plan on buying a "Voltage Master" 5 KW generator (3600 RPM) that I will
power from my tractor front PTO. I would like to run the tractor at about
1600 RPM so will have to "gear up" by about 2.25/1. Question is, should I
use a V belt or roller chain?? I suppose either would work but each has
advantages and I wonder what would be best overall.

BTW, the no-name 6 KW diesel gen sets at the auction I was looking at went
for $1,200 so I passed.

TIA for any suggestions.

Laurie Forbes

Thank you everyone who replied to my query. It looks like belt(s) are the
way to go (minimum 4" sheave on the gen end?). That being the case, for a 5
KW gen, would a single B belt be sufficient or would a double be requried
(the only possible downside I see to belt(s) would be slippage or breakage)?
It seems that a single B might do it as the tractor 3PH mower has single
internal drive belt and has worked for years w/o slippage or breaking all
the while absorbing the full engine output (15 HP) from time to time.

Thanks again for the help............

Laurie Forbes

Nick Müller wrote:

If you look a v-belt manufacturers site, you will find some formula to
calculate the necessary size (depending on kind of load, rpm, ratio and
power).

To transmit 6kW at 3600 rpm a v-belt with the profile SPZ is good enough
as long as the diameter of the small pulley is bigger than about 150mm.

At 180mm diameter and 2800 rpm, you can transmit 8.2 kW. As your rpm is
higher, the power that can be transmitted is higher too.

SPZ-profile is: height 8mm, big width: 9.7mm, angle is 38°


Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO - YADRO - Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige

Laurie Forbes wrote:

would a single B belt be sufficient or would a double be requried
(the only possible downside I see to belt(s) would be slippage or breakage)?

Laurie,
A single belt would carry the load just fine. I suggested a double just
to add V-suspenders to the V-belt, keeping you running in case one
breaks. They are very commonly used in machinery like combines, so you
can save some money by scavenging the pulleys, otherwise rather pricey.
Single pulleys are available in hardware stores and are inexpensive.
Really cheap ones are to be avoided as they will likely be unbalanced or
not actually round.

BTW - slippage capability is *good* for protecting more expensive parts
if something jams, plus the copious smoke makes a marvelous multisensory
warning signal!

--
Fred R
________________
Drop TROU to email.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:52:10 GMT, "Laurie Forbes"
wrote:

I plan on buying a "Voltage Master" 5 KW generator (3600 RPM) that I will
power from my tractor front PTO. I would like to run the tractor at about
1600 RPM so will have to "gear up" by about 2.25/1. Question is, should I
use a V belt or roller chain?? I suppose either would work but each has
advantages and I wonder what would be best overall.

BTW, the no-name 6 KW diesel gen sets at the auction I was looking at went
for $1,200 so I passed.

TIA for any suggestions.

Laurie Forbes

Greetings Laurie,
What a coincidence. I was just reading an engineering kinetics book.
Especially the parts about chains and belts. From what I read it
appears that toothed belt drive is the best. Next, for quietness is
vee belts. But best for effiency would be chain. If I did it the
toothed belt drive would be my choice followed by vee belts.
ERS

"Fred R" "spam wrote in message
.. .
Laurie Forbes wrote:

would a single B belt be sufficient or would a double be requried (the
only possible downside I see to belt(s) would be slippage or breakage)?

Laurie,
A single belt would carry the load just fine. I suggested a double just to
add V-suspenders to the V-belt, keeping you running in case one breaks.
They are very commonly used in machinery like combines, so you can save
some money by scavenging the pulleys, otherwise rather pricey.

Fred, I think I'll go without the suspenders as it doesn't matter a whole
lot whether or not the pants fall down. I have looked a cast iron pulleys
and they *are* rather pricey (and I don't suppose the Al variety would hold
up long).

Single pulleys are available in hardware stores and are inexpensive.
Really cheap ones are to be avoided as they will likely be unbalanced or
not actually round.

BTW - slippage capability is *good* for protecting more expensive parts if
something jams, plus the copious smoke makes a marvelous multisensory
warning signal!


BTW, I've just finished perusing the Voltage Master gen user manual and it
has an interesting caution which I don't quite understand. If the gen is to
be powered by a 1 or 2 cylinder diesel, because of the high compression
ration it is recommended that the diesel be run at or close to rated RPM
otherwise there will be some unspecified effect on the gen. I can only
thing this must be due to slight crankshaft speed variation as a piston goes
through the compression stroke but I cannot think why this would be
detrimental. I was planning to run about 1600 to 1800 RPM vs 2450 rated so
I guess I will have to call them tomorrow to see what the tolerance is.

Laurie Forbes

Laurie Forbes wrote:


BTW, I've just finished perusing the Voltage Master gen user manual and it
has an interesting caution which I don't quite understand. If the gen is to
be powered by a 1 or 2 cylinder diesel, because of the high compression
ration it is recommended that the diesel be run at or close to rated RPM
otherwise there will be some unspecified effect on the gen. I can only
thing this must be due to slight crankshaft speed variation as a piston goes
through the compression stroke but I cannot think why this would be
detrimental. I was planning to run about 1600 to 1800 RPM vs 2450 rated so
I guess I will have to call them tomorrow to see what the tolerance is.

Laurie I'm speculating here but it could very well be the speed
variations. More specifically it could be the torque impulses due to
compression and detonation. If so, you could smooth them by adding more
flywheel mass to the generator and let the belt provide some compliance
so the generator gets a nice cushy ride.

I do like to slow engines down a bit in general, although diesels seem
to thrive on just sitting at full power forever.

--
Fred R
________________
Drop TROU to email.

"Fred R" "spam wrote in message
.. .
Laurie Forbes wrote:


BTW, I've just finished perusing the Voltage Master gen user manual and
it has an interesting caution which I don't quite understand. If the gen
is to be powered by a 1 or 2 cylinder diesel, because of the high
compression ration it is recommended that the diesel be run at or close
to rated RPM otherwise there will be some unspecified effect on the gen.
I can only thing this must be due to slight crankshaft speed variation as
a piston goes through the compression stroke but I cannot think why this
would be detrimental. I was planning to run about 1600 to 1800 RPM vs
2450 rated so I guess I will have to call them tomorrow to see what the
tolerance is.

Laurie I'm speculating here but it could very well be the speed
variations. More specifically it could be the torque impulses due to
compression and detonation. If so, you could smooth them by adding more
flywheel mass to the generator and let the belt provide some compliance so
the generator gets a nice cushy ride.

Thanks Fred - I'll ask them about that.


I do like to slow engines down a bit in general, although diesels seem to
thrive on just sitting at full power forever.


Yes - I would be more concerned with gas engine wear & tear than a diesel.
For all the time I will be using it as a gen, maybe it's not worth worrying
about (unless we have an ice storm or hurricane up here where the power
could be out for weeks . Less noise (this Yanmar 2 cylinder is a real
head banger) and fuel consumption would be nice however......

Laurie Forbes

another idea to do too is use the toothed belt and actually and run it
off an old VW air cooled engine ,I have seen a few of these setups in
different places over the years ,the nicest thing about is the fact that
when maintained the engine will last for years and parts are always
avaible and they use 4 pints of oil and they are designed to run at
higher rpms ,actually I did see one guy who set his up with the
transaxle that way he just needed to run his belt 1:1 and just shift
into the necessary ratio ,pretty smart and this setup was pretty light
,he could pull it around his property with a simple lawn tractor
sorry if it got off topic a lil bit but thought this might be
interesting to know in case you need a second unit or something to
transport easily with almost any vehicle ,an alternative engine would be
the VW rabbit diesel ,they are all over the place and pretty affordable
to pick up
good luck

Just spoke to a rep at Volt Master re powering their gen by a two cylinder
diesel. While he wasn't terribly helpful and in fact seemed annoyed at my
questions, I did find out that the concern with running a one or two
cylinder diesel at less than rated RPM is vibration transmission to the gen
(he says they get then back on warranty and find they have been "shaken
apart" in some instances). Now, apart from whatever that says about their
construction quality, he said the engine and gen should be mounted solidly
to the *same* platform to prevent belt slippage caused by vibration. You
then must install the platform on vibration absorbing mounts to keep the
thing from shaking. How then you power the thing from a tractor remains the
question and all he had to say about that was to use their tractor rear PTO
mount units.

I'm thinking then I could possibly mount the gen on the floor (not attached
to the tractor frame), connected only by the drive belt with maybe an idler
to maintain belt tension and smooth out any belt flopping around. I wonder
however how much belt slippage would actually occur in any case if the
proper tension is maintained and maybe belt dressing is used.

As to vibration, I once had an aircraft generator bolted to the front end of
the same tractor (using it as a welding gen) using a direct shaft drive
(with a Lovejoy coupling) and did not have or notice any particular
vibration problems. I wonder if these Volt Masters are of crappy
construction and won't stand up to much or if they simply are making their
recommendations out of an abundance of caution.

Any further advice appreciated...........

Laurie Forbes

ok, you want something SIMPLE, yet works.

have a platform for the generator to sit on. Make that platform HEAVY.
For my purposes, it does not need to be rubber mounted. Weld a plate
off the platform that goes sideways, and is at ground level.

drive the tractor so one front tire is on the plate. Hook the V-belt
up. Drive tractor forwards and backwards until it is lined up. Turn the
steering wheel to cure the skew. Eventually, you can weld a stop on
the generator to set the "depth" of the tractor by stopping the front
tire of the tractor.
Have a spring loaded tensioner on the slack side of the belt. Do not be
afraid to make this tensioner really stout, with a really strong
spring.

Now you have a rubber isolated (front tire) damperner, and it is easy
to hook and unhook.

Make sure your PTO can take moderate side thrusts.