On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:42:08 GMT, Graham Wellington
wrote:

Cliff wrote:
On 21 Jul 2005 08:52:32 -0700, "DL" wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/7tjzj

Can you say "inflation".


Nobody left to loan the neocons any more money for their
deficits it seems.
Now they will call the loans due.

Idiot. Go take a few economics courses, then come back.

Money, like all those dollars sitting in China, is/are promises
to pay later in real goods or services, on demand.
That's it's "value".
It is a loan against future real goods & services.
Otherwise quite worthless.

Go take a few economics courses, then come back.
You OWE.

HTH
--
Cliff

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:58:50 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

I read an article the other day in the Economist that said because the
Chinese production facilities were so new and highly automated that the
labor component was relatively small.

I assume that a lot of labor went into producing the facilities and
automation.
Whose?

You have to count that too. It was labor *invested*.
--
Cliff

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:FpVDe.175918$sy6.52418@lakeread04...

Pretty soon we will not be able to afford anything but the cheap **** from
China.

The other advantage will be that the these bonds are dollar denominated and
as the dollar declines so does their value.
When they are redeemed for dollars we will really be hosing the Chinese.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

"Ignoramus5104" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:49:17 GMT, J. R. Carroll
wrote:

The other advantage will be that the these bonds are dollar
denominated and as the dollar declines so does their value. When
they are redeemed for dollars we will really be hosing the Chinese.


That's completely correct.

i



The Chinese will have an even trillion in T Bills by summers end and they
just lost their bid for Unocal to Chevron. The smart play now would be to
trade their depreciating paper for something they need. Were I them I would
see Chevron as a good trade even if I had to pay a 30 percent premium to the
market to do it. Those dollars will never be worth more than they are today
but Chevron isn't going anywhere but up.


--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

Cliff wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:50:58 -0700, Tim May
wrote:


In article , Emmo
wrote:


Well, I've been out of work for 17 months. I spent the previous 23 years in
software marketing, but there isn't much call for that anymore, between open
source, Microsoft, and India. Not sure how China plays into this issue, but
I'm certainly sensitive to people losing their jobs when they vanish from
this country. I'm not so clear on what I'm going to do now, myself...

Flipping burgers pays $6.75. Serving double double decafes with a twist
of lemon pays $8.35, plus all the tips you can grovel for (split with
the storeowner, 30-70, of course).


Winger's Delite, eh?


If you're a negro or a Mexican, you can be paid to stay at home and
breed, watch t.v., etc.


Winger's Delite, eh?

Yes, cliff, that's the Delite of the winger. The left-winger. The ones
who run around trying to convince everyone who is not of Western
European ancestry that they are victims in some way and deserve
something for nothing.

John

Tim May wrote:
In article , Emmo
wrote:

Well, I've been out of work for 17 months. I spent the previous 23 years in
software marketing, but there isn't much call for that anymore, between open
source, Microsoft, and India. Not sure how China plays into this issue, but
I'm certainly sensitive to people losing their jobs when they vanish from
this country. I'm not so clear on what I'm going to do now, myself...

Flipping burgers pays $6.75. Serving double double decafes with a twist
of lemon pays $8.35, plus all the tips you can grovel for (split with
the storeowner, 30-70, of course).

If you're a negro or a Mexican, you can be paid to stay at home and
breed, watch t.v., etc.

This is the country liberals voted for.


--Tim May



"Flipping burgers pays $6.75."

In And Out Burger starts employees at $10 or $11 per hour in
Scottsdale, Arizona. They sell burgers, fries, soda and milk shakes....
that's it. Prices are very reasonable / cheap at In And Out Burger.



jon

Slow down a little Cliff. What I am saying is basically on your side but
you gotta find the right planet to figure out where the side is. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Cliff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:58:50 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

I read an article the other day in the Economist that said because the
Chinese production facilities were so new and highly automated that the
labor component was relatively small.

I assume that a lot of labor went into producing the facilities and
automation.
Whose?

You have to count that too. It was labor *invested*.
--
Cliff

The other advantage will be that the these bonds are dollar denominated
and
as the dollar declines so does their value.
When they are redeemed for dollars we will really be hosing the Chinese.

Only if the Chinese allow the Yuan to float freely on the market and that is
not going to happen. What the weakening of the dollar against market
floated currencies does do is make is make current consumption (like oil)
more expensive. At least $15 of the current $60 price of a barrel of oil is
a direct result of our idiotic fiscal policy.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

PrecisionMachinisT wrote:

SNIP



Curious--is flippin burgers now being considered 'skilled' these days or not
???

--

SVL




Seems like last year or so, some politician or group was trying to get
fast food cook jobs reclassified as assembly work, probably to get some
statistic skewed the way they wanted.
--
Steve Walker
(remove wallet to reply)

lol

ral

Marc wrote:

As a proud neocon, I think we neocons need to have a raffle or
something so that Cliff could buy a brain.
Any thoughts Gunner ?
Heh
Mark

"Marc" wrote in message
news:ZT8Ee.233$uy3.59@trnddc05...
As a proud neocon, I think we neocons need to have a raffle or something
so that Cliff could buy a brain.
Any thoughts Gunner ?
Heh
Mark


What? Destroy the planet's most perfect vacuum?

No Way!

Emmo wrote:
Well, I've been out of work for 17 months. I spent the previous 23 years in
software marketing, but there isn't much call for that anymore, between open
source, Microsoft, and India. Not sure how China plays into this issue, but
I'm certainly sensitive to people losing their jobs when they vanish from
this country.

Ho about if they just vanish. HP 15,000, Kodak 10,000 on top of already
announced 15,000 in 2004.

And the fun keeps going on.

Face it, China is the next economic powerhouse on this here planet.
America is pretty much done, and things aren't getting any better.
First IBM, next the oil company. It won't stop there. They are just
rolling in cash.

They only thing we still produce that has value to the world is weapons.

And another blow to our economy, is that about 95% of all the software
and movies are pirated in China and Russia.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Tim May wrote:


If you're a negro or a Mexican, you can be paid to stay at home and
breed, watch t.v., etc.

You're a pathetic racist and bigot.


This is the country liberals voted for.

No you got it all wrong, it's the Jews who are to blame.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Abrasha wrote:
Tim May wrote:


If you're a negro or a Mexican, you can be paid to stay at home and
breed, watch t.v., etc.

You're a pathetic racist and bigot.


This is the country liberals voted for.

No you got it all wrong, it's the Jews who are to blame.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com


"No you got it all wrong, it's the Jews who are to blame."

What are Jews to blame for ?

jon

"jon_banquer" wrote in message
oups.com...
In And Out Burger starts employees at $10 or $11 per hour in
Scottsdale, Arizona. They sell burgers, fries, soda and milk shakes....
that's it. Prices are very reasonable / cheap at In And Out Burger.

Good burgers too!

Wait...what the ****.. I'm replying to a Cliff thread. I'm out.

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Graham Wellington" wrote in message
k.net...
These are probably the same losers who flip me off when
I'm driving around in my $72,000 customized Hummer.

Hey dude... I don't really care what your income is, are you *sure* of your
penis size? LOL!

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Tim Williams wrote:
"jon_banquer" wrote in message
oups.com...
In And Out Burger starts employees at $10 or $11 per hour in
Scottsdale, Arizona. They sell burgers, fries, soda and milk shakes....
that's it. Prices are very reasonable / cheap at In And Out Burger.

Good burgers too!

Wait...what the ****.. I'm replying to a Cliff thread. I'm out.

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms


I believe he's been dead for years. Left a legacy of hate, intolerance
and game playing.

Lost the respect of almost everyone who ever came in contact with him.

jon

jon_banquer wrote:
Abrasha wrote:

Tim May wrote:


If you're a negro or a Mexican, you can be paid to stay at home and
breed, watch t.v., etc.

You're a pathetic racist and bigot.


This is the country liberals voted for.

No you got it all wrong, it's the Jews who are to blame.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com



"No you got it all wrong, it's the Jews who are to blame."

What are Jews to blame for ?

jon


Everything.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
This was just eye wash to let the Shrub claim he is doing something. A 2%
adjustment when the RMB is 30% to 40% undervalued will not mean anything at
all. Now that it is pegged to a bundle of currencies the US$ would have to
crash before it would make any difference. Which may happen. With the
deficits we have been running the dollar has already lost 30% of its value
against the Euro and the Pound. Before the Shrub's tax cut one Euro was
worth $1.17. Today it is worth $0.82. For the RMB to be at its proper
value the US$ would have to drop to $0.50 against the Euro.



You'ver got you rnumber wrong.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Graham Wellington wrote:

I'm driving around in my $72,000 customized Hummer.

Hmmm,

Interesting, must be compensation for a weenie the size of a shriveled
hot dog.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:10:33 GMT, Marc wrote:

As a proud neocon, I think we neocons need to have a raffle or
something so that Cliff could buy a brain.
Any thoughts Gunner ?
Heh
Mark

http://www.mad-cow.org/

Im sure any one of the specimens would make him saner than he is now.

Gunner




Richard Lewis wrote:
And you're sure about this about as sure as you have been about
everything else, right?

What do I get when you're proven to be an idiot again as you always
have been?

ral

Cliff wrote:


On 21 Jul 2005 08:52:32 -0700, "DL" wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/7tjzj

Can you say "inflation".


Nobody left to loan the neocons any more money for their
deficits it seems.
Now they will call the loans due.
--
Cliff




"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:49:17 GMT, "J. R. Carroll"
wrote:




"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:FpVDe.175918$sy6.52418@lakeread04...

Pretty soon we will not be able to afford anything but the cheap **** from
China.

The other advantage will be that the these bonds are dollar denominated and
as the dollar declines so does their value.

First one to dump them wins.

When they are redeemed for dollars we will really be hosing the Chinese.

I think that they know that ..... but they might win by buying
control of other US assets .... and get the oil & remainig
technology too.

They have to be a lot smarter than any neocon.
--
Cliff

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:10:33 GMT, "J. R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Ignoramus5104" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:49:17 GMT, J. R. Carroll
wrote:

The other advantage will be that the these bonds are dollar
denominated and as the dollar declines so does their value. When
they are redeemed for dollars we will really be hosing the Chinese.


That's completely correct.

i



The Chinese will have an even trillion in T Bills by summers end and they
just lost their bid for Unocal to Chevron. The smart play now would be to
trade their depreciating paper for something they need. Were I them I would
see Chevron as a good trade even if I had to pay a 30 percent premium to the
market to do it. Those dollars will never be worth more than they are today
but Chevron isn't going anywhere but up.

Then they'd have both Chevron AND Unocal.
--
Cliff

On 22 Jul 2005 17:09:45 -0700, "jon_banquer"
wrote:

"Flipping burgers pays $6.75."

In And Out Burger starts employees at $10 or $11 per hour in
Scottsdale, Arizona.

Did they hire you after the interview?
--
Cliff

On 22 Jul 2005 22:11:36 -0700, "jon_banquer"
wrote:

I believe he's been dead for years. Left a legacy of hate, intolerance
and game playing.

Lost the respect of almost everyone who ever came in contact with him.

No more threats, eh?
LOL ....
--
Cliff

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:47:11 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Im sure any one of the specimens would make him saner than he is now.

After you starve gramps you can eat him .... beware the Kuru ...
Oops .... too late?
--
Cliff

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:iNgEe.176023$sy6.51275@lakeread04...
The other advantage will be that the these bonds are dollar denominated
and
as the dollar declines so does their value.
When they are redeemed for dollars we will really be hosing the Chinese.

Only if the Chinese allow the Yuan to float freely on the market and that
is
not going to happen. What the weakening of the dollar against market
floated currencies does do is make is make current consumption (like oil)
more expensive. At least $15 of the current $60 price of a barrel of oil
is
a direct result of our idiotic fiscal policy.



The future value of the Yuan has nothing to do with the Value of currently
held Chinese dollar denominated reserves.
As the purchasing power in the global market of the dollar fluctuates, so do
those reserves. If the dollar falls those dollars purchase less real goods.
It's that simple - for the Chinese. Really.
I wouldn't speculate on the "idiot fiscal" component in oil prices but would
be willing to state that oil pricing in today's global (not US )market is
entirely demand driven. The supply is pretty much fixed. As far as I know
the major suppliers of crude still denominate all of their transactions in
dollars. OPEC voted on a shift to the Euro recently but they decided against
it when they met and voted. Had they gone ahead you would be seeing $4.00
per gallon gasoline in the US by now and the difference would be largely due
to the fluctuations in the value of the dollar that you mentioned. Get
ready, it's coming, but even if it doesn't happen soon the price of oil is
not going anywhere but up. Supply is static and untapped reserves are not
thought to be significant, on a global scale, while demand continues to
surge as Asia and India grow.


--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

Let the record show that Gunner wrote back on
Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:29:51 GMT in misc.survivalism :

Curious--is flippin burgers now being considered 'skilled' these days or not
???

Nope.

But machining is.

Manufacturing has picked up in most/many places. I see all sorts of
help wanted ads here in So. Cal. Installers, service people, CNC
button pushers, drivers, machinists.

So. Cal was the last part of the country to tank, and its the last
part to recover, always. So it must be even better elsewhere.

In the fall, I forwarded an ad for a job north of Seattle to a friend
of mine, who lived north of Seattle. He got hired on. This spring, he
calls me up and says "Put in an Application, mention my name, and after 90
days, I'll get a $250 dollar bonus." So I do, got hired on, at more than
he is now making.
Last week, the company put up flyers offering $500.00 bonus for those
who recommend Machinists. I tell him after break, "I have a cunning
plan... you quit, then apply for a job, with my name as the referral. I'm
sure you can get the pay raise, and I'll get the bonus ...".

He's considering it ... :-)


pyotr



--
pyotr filipivich
"MTV may talk about lighting fires and killing children,
but Janet Reno actually does something about it." --Spy Magazine

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 05:41:06 GMT, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Let the record show that Gunner wrote back on
Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:29:51 GMT in misc.survivalism :

Curious--is flippin burgers now being considered 'skilled' these days or not
???

Nope.

But machining is.

Manufacturing has picked up in most/many places. I see all sorts of
help wanted ads here in So. Cal. Installers, service people, CNC
button pushers, drivers, machinists.

So. Cal was the last part of the country to tank, and its the last
part to recover, always. So it must be even better elsewhere.

In the fall, I forwarded an ad for a job north of Seattle to a friend
of mine, who lived north of Seattle. He got hired on. This spring, he
calls me up and says "Put in an Application, mention my name, and after 90
days, I'll get a $250 dollar bonus." So I do, got hired on, at more than
he is now making.
Last week, the company put up flyers offering $500.00 bonus for those
who recommend Machinists. I tell him after break, "I have a cunning
plan... you quit, then apply for a job, with my name as the referral. I'm
sure you can get the pay raise, and I'll get the bonus ...".

He's considering it ... :-)

They are having a 2 for the price of 3 sale down the street ....
--
Cliff

snip
I read an article the other day in the Economist that said because the
Chinese production facilities were so new and highly automated that the
labor component was relatively small.
snip
I used to work for a fortune 500 manufacturing company. Our
cost accountants calculated the following average expense
distribution per dollar of sales:
[direct] labor 10%
labor burden 20%
material 20%
material burden 30%
G&A 10%
gross profit remainder

Almost all managerial and engineering efforts were devoted to
reducing direct labor. This company is no longer in business,
and the core product is now made in India on the machines from
the U.S.

snip
They want to see the economy collapse because they are all losers who
can't compete in a free market, and they are jealous of those of us who
are succeeding.
snip
And where is this free market? Some of the most basic economic
factors are the cost of capital [interest rates] and foreign
exchange rates. If anyone believes these are set by market
forces in the United States I have some nice beach front property
here in the Texas panhandle they may be interested in. Much of
the claimed "success" appears to be based on Enron/WrldCom class
book-keeping and cost externalization such as tax evasion,
employee benefit cuts, looting pension funds, and stiffing the
retirees.

pyotr filipivich wrote:

Let the record show that Gunner wrote back on
Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:29:51 GMT in misc.survivalism :

Curious--is flippin burgers now being considered 'skilled' these days or not
???

Nope.

But machining is.

Manufacturing has picked up in most/many places. I see all sorts of
help wanted ads here in So. Cal. Installers, service people, CNC
button pushers, drivers, machinists.

So. Cal was the last part of the country to tank, and its the last
part to recover, always. So it must be even better elsewhere.


In the fall, I forwarded an ad for a job north of Seattle to a friend
of mine, who lived north of Seattle. He got hired on. This spring, he
calls me up and says "Put in an Application, mention my name, and after 90
days, I'll get a $250 dollar bonus." So I do, got hired on, at more than
he is now making.
Last week, the company put up flyers offering $500.00 bonus for those
who recommend Machinists. I tell him after break, "I have a cunning
plan... you quit, then apply for a job, with my name as the referral. I'm
sure you can get the pay raise, and I'll get the bonus ...".

He's considering it ... :-)


pyotr



There are some HR that have NO re-hire on those who quit.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Let the record show that "J. R. Carroll"
wrote back on Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:49:17 GMT in misc.survivalism :



"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:FpVDe.175918$sy6.52418@lakeread04...

Pretty soon we will not be able to afford anything but the cheap **** from
China.

The other advantage will be that the these bonds are dollar denominated and
as the dollar declines so does their value.
When they are redeemed for dollars we will really be hosing the Chinese.

Interesting question I heard was "What has the price of Saudi Oil to do
with the cost of refinancing mortgages in Indiana?" Their argument was:
oil being priced in dollars, and the Yuan being tied to the dollar, the
Chinese are shelling out more Yuan than they need to. This means that
there are fewer China Dollars to prop up US Bond sales, which means the
interest rates are going to go up, so it's time to ReFi now before it
happens.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
What is normal?
"Two sigmas either side of mu.
You bring the cow." drieux.