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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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Lathe way rebuilding
Just got a South Bend 10" Heavy and the ways are just slightly worn near the
chuck (you can just barely feel a ridge with your finger nail). I called a place that rebuilds and to grind the ways and scrape the various parts back to fit would be $6,000. Yeah, right. Starting to learn hand scraping but that's a big job plus I still have all the other parts to fix up after the ways are ground or scraped. From a practical standpoint, I'm just a beginner so this is probably not worth worrying about for a while. So, almost a hypothetical question - since the ends of the ways are still perfect, wouldn't it be possible to use one of those little home plating systems to add nickel or chrome to the areas that are worn and then scrape them to the original contours? Seems like it would be a lot less work. Since this doesn't seem to be the common way to go I'd like to be enlightened as to why. Thanks. Steve. |
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Lathe way rebuilding
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Lathe way rebuilding
In article , SRF says...
So, almost a hypothetical question - since the ends of the ways are still perfect, wouldn't it be possible to use one of those little home plating systems to add nickel or chrome to the areas that are worn and then scrape them to the original contours? Seems like it would be a lot less work. Since this doesn't seem to be the common way to go I'd like to be enlightened as to why. This topic comes up frequently. The short answer is, there are various techniques that are proposed for re-working small lathe beds. And yes, a 10L really does qualify as a small machine. The larger ones often have removeable, replaceable beds or bed ways. One can machine and re-scrape the existing ways. Or one can use the 'good' portions on either side of the wear to guide a grinder that re-works the rest of the bed. But the inevitable fact is that one can purchase a nearly new entire lathe, for the cost of having a worn bed re-scraped. I've never heard of anyone who tried to plate up the worn areas, but I think that would be even more expensive in the long run, than simply rescraping the entire bed surface. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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Lathe way rebuilding
No, it's more like a stub morse #5. Even that is off slightly, but it's
pretty close. -- Tony Visit TonysToolroom for info on Precision Scraping. ***Now with Powerscraping*** Don't skive that belt before you visit my flatbelt page! http://www.csgnet.net/toolroom/ Spammers Beware : Your entering the No-Spam zone **** Protected by Mailwasher **** www.mailwasher.net Caution:Bouncing Spam: Eye protection required! "ATP" wrote in message .net... Fdmorrison wrote: "SRF" Just got a South Bend 10" Heavy and the ways are just slightly worn near the chuck (you can just barely feel a ridge with your finger nail). .... That's typical for an older lathe. Some drop of the ways there is not going to make a lot of practical difference to what the lathe will make for you. As part of setting up, try turning the ends of a piece of stock (say twelve inches long) between centers (using a faceplate and lathe dog rather than a chuck). Does the Heavy 10 headstock spindle take a #5 Morse taper? |
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Lathe way rebuilding
SRF wrote: Just got a South Bend 10" Heavy and the ways are just slightly worn near the chuck (you can just barely feel a ridge with your finger nail). I called a place that rebuilds and to grind the ways and scrape the various parts back to fit would be $6,000. Yeah, right. Starting to learn hand scraping but that's a big job plus I still have all the other parts to fix up after the ways are ground or scraped. From a practical standpoint, I'm just a beginner so this is probably not worth worrying about for a while. Well, that may only be a few thousandths. If the wear on the front and back way are similar, it really makes little difference in the accuracy of the machine. If only the front way is worn, then the saddle will tilt, and that can make the diameter error worse. $6000 sounds quite a bit high. How about just grinding it, and doing the scraping yourself? You'll learn a lot, and it may not be a big job to scrape it after the grinding cleans it up to almost perfect. One question, though. Is it a hardened bed? That is a real bear to "scrape", as I have found out the hard way! I have been working over a Sheldon 15" lathe with a hard bed, and chromed cross slide. The bed was a total bear because it is so big, but the cross slide is almost worse, as it is incredibly hard! So, almost a hypothetical question - since the ends of the ways are still perfect, wouldn't it be possible to use one of those little home plating systems to add nickel or chrome to the areas that are worn and then scrape them to the original contours? Seems like it would be a lot less work. Since this doesn't seem to be the common way to go I'd like to be enlightened as to why. I have some real doubts that would work real well. Home plating, you mean the thing with a couple of AA batteries and a brush? That applies metal by the nanometer. If you tried to plate up .003" of wear, you might not be able to complete the repair in this century! You'd probably need to apply the Nickel or Chrome immersed in a bath, with a current of amperes, for a week to build up .003" of wear. (This .003" is just a wild guess of the wear as you describe it.) Flame spraying of hard Chrome or some similar material could build up the low spots, then you'd probably build up the entire bed with a thin layer of the hard facing. Then, it is ground smooth and straight, and generally not touched up any after that. But, if grinding the whole bed is going to be needed, you might as well just do that, only, and be done with it! As far as I know, you can't flame spray a bedway without having to grind it smooth afterwards. Jon |
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Lathe way rebuilding
Tony wrote:
No, it's more like a stub morse #5. Even that is off slightly, but it's pretty close. Is it South Bend's own taper? Spammers Beware : Your entering the No-Spam zone **** Protected by Mailwasher **** www.mailwasher.net Caution:Bouncing Spam: Eye protection required! "ATP" wrote in message .net... Fdmorrison wrote: "SRF" Just got a South Bend 10" Heavy and the ways are just slightly worn near the chuck (you can just barely feel a ridge with your finger nail). .... That's typical for an older lathe. Some drop of the ways there is not going to make a lot of practical difference to what the lathe will make for you. As part of setting up, try turning the ends of a piece of stock (say twelve inches long) between centers (using a faceplate and lathe dog rather than a chuck). Does the Heavy 10 headstock spindle take a #5 Morse taper? |
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Lathe way rebuilding
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:06:03 GMT, "ATP"
wrote: Tony wrote: No, it's more like a stub morse #5. Even that is off slightly, but it's pretty close. Is it South Bend's own taper? I think it is the infamous No. 4-1/2 Morse taper. That was used to get a taper that did not have excess length hanging out the front of spindles with a nominal 1-3/8" I.D. Those are the spindles that are large enough to accept a 5C collet body. Many lathes (South Bend, Logan, Sheldon, Clausing, etc.) with 1-3/8" I.D. spindles came with a hardened and ground MT 4-1/2 to MT 3 or MT 2 adapter so that commonly used MT 2 and 3 cutters and tooling MT could be used in either the headstock or tailstock. To make a adapter, steal the angle from inside the spindle with a dial indicator mounted on the compound, turn it between centers from the preferred metal, then mount it in the spindle and drill and bore or ream the desired inside taper. Make match marks on the adapter and spindle nose for indexing it. If you can get it hardened and ground it would be good but an unhardened one will provide good service for the average HSM shop. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
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Lathe way rebuilding
A bed regrind should hold a tolerance of 1/2 thousandth over the length of the
bed. That finishes the bed. Then you need to apply turcite or moglice under the saddle and tailstock which is then worked (machined and/or scraped) to the original factory height so components will align such as the lead screw. Universal Grinding here in Dallas regrinds small lathe beds for less than a $1,000. Gary Repesh |
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Lathe way rebuilding
In article , GJRepesh says...
A bed regrind should hold a tolerance of 1/2 thousandth over the length of the bed. That finishes the bed. Then you need to apply turcite or moglice under the saddle and tailstock which is then worked (machined and/or scraped) to the original factory height so components will align such as the lead screw. Universal Grinding here in Dallas regrinds small lathe beds for less than a $1,000. But that does not include the cost to re-fit the saddle and tailstock, right? I suspect that 1K will net you a re-finished bed, only. Then one has to consider shipping costs. Unless the bed can be hand delivered to the shop, it rapidly becomes more economical to simply purchase a better, small lathe. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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Lathe way rebuilding
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 10:56:22 -0400, Jack Erbes
wrote: I think it is the infamous No. 4-1/2 Morse taper. That was used to get a taper that did not have excess length hanging out the front of spindles with a nominal 1-3/8" I.D. Those are the spindles that are large enough to accept a 5C collet body. Many lathes (South Bend, Logan, Sheldon, Clausing, etc.) with 1-3/8" I.D. spindles came with a hardened and ground MT 4-1/2 to MT 3 or MT 2 adapter so that commonly used MT 2 and 3 cutters and tooling MT could be used in either the headstock or tailstock. Sorry, wrong on at least two counts. Neither Logan nor South Bend used a Morse Taper on their lathes with 1-3/8" spindle bore. Logan and South Bend both used proprietary tapers, the Logan 0.070"/inch for most 11" and all 12" and 14" Lathes. South Bend used (mostly) 0.602"/foot taper. I can't say what was used on Sheldon or Clausing. -- +--------------------------------------------+ | Scott Logan - ssl "at" lathe.com | | Logan Actuator Co. http://www.lathe.com | | Harvard, IL | |++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++| | Parts and Accessories for Logan Lathes and | | Montgomery Wards Lathes | | Logan-Lilly Mine Hoist Safety Controllers | +--------------------------------------------+ "Measure Twice, Cut Once" RCM FAQ - http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal Metal Web News - http://www.metalwebnews.com/ Help squash SPAM: http://www.cauce.org/ |
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Lathe way rebuilding
Scott S. Logan wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:29:22 GMT, "ATP" wrote: Does the Heavy 10 headstock spindle take a #5 Morse taper? No, it is 0.602" per foot taper, 1.629 Gage line diameter. Thanks. |
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Lathe way rebuilding
In article , Gunner says...
There is a grinding place in So.Cal. that will do it for around $600 or so. And while expensive, Turcite or Moglice is not that much. On the other hand..you can simply remove the same amount from the top of the apron, and everything will bolt up and operate normally. Which is what I someday plan on doing with my 13x36 Colchester. The Tailstock way will not get touched so will not need any shimming. Seldom will the Tailstock way need to be reground, so thats not an expense needed. If I could find a local place that would do a lathe bed for six hundred, it would start to look attractive. I would have considered re-working my old, clapped out 10L, rather than buy a new one. But the economics still don't quite work: Cost of original 10L machine: $800 Cost to re-work bed of same: 600 Total, $1400. I found a nice newer 10L with a flame hard bed, for $1800. Those economics work better: Buy new machine for: $1800 Sell older machine: 800 Total, $1000. And in the end I would have a ww2 vintage machine, with all the attendant wear in the rest of the bits, with only a single tumbler gearbox - granted it would have pristine, soft ways. By spending four hundred *less* I would up with a newer machine, double tumber gearbox, and flame hard ways, also pristine. This is one reason why small lathe beds rarely get re-done. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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Lathe way rebuilding
On 24 Aug 2003 15:03:56 -0700, jim rozen
wrote: But the economics still don't quite work: Cost of original 10L machine: $800 Cost to re-work bed of same: 600 Total, $1400. I found a nice newer 10L with a flame hard bed, for $1800. Those economics work better: Buy new machine for: $1800 Sell older machine: 800 Total, $1000. ============== Jim, I give you an A for good sense, but a C- for your analysis. Still, it might work to use this technique on the Other Half... You failed to include the cost of the original machine in your cost of the new machine. It should be: Cost of original 10L machine: $800 Cost to re-work bed of same: 600 Total investment, $1400 for a reworked machine. Newer 10L with a flame hard bed, for $1800. Cost of original 10L machine: $800 Buy new machine for: $1800 Sell older machine: 800 Total investment, $1800 for a newer machine. Which is $400 MORE, not less... ;-) But, that $400 still probably yields better value than reworking the old machine when you consider all the other stuff you'd need to do in addition to simply reworking the bed. Kevin Develop Windows(tm) Applications - in COBOL! http://www.ScreenIO.com |
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Lathe way rebuilding
In article , Kevin Hansen says...
You failed to include the cost of the original machine in your cost of the new machine. Heh. Funny how that works. Once the machine is in the basement for a few years, ms. Mulligan maybe forgets about the cost. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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Lathe way rebuilding
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:44:31 -0500, Scott S. Logan
wrote: snip Sorry, wrong on at least two counts. Neither Logan nor South Bend used a Morse Taper on their lathes with 1-3/8" spindle bore. Logan and South Bend both used proprietary tapers, the Logan 0.070"/inch for most 11" and all 12" and 14" Lathes. South Bend used (mostly) 0.602"/foot taper. I can't say what was used on Sheldon or Clausing. Thanks for correcting me. Maybe it was because all those adapters looked a lot alike? I never had a South Bend or Logan but I know the Standard-Modern and Sheldon that I owned both had them. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
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Lathe way rebuilding
Sheldon used a MT-4 on my 11x44 Lathe.
I have the MT-4 to MT-2 converter - useful for spindle work with spur or with center, face plate and a dog. Martin -- Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn @ home at Lion's Lair with our computer NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder |
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Lathe way rebuilding
"Scott S. Logan" wrote in message news On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 10:56:22 -0400, Jack Erbes wrote: I think it is the infamous No. 4-1/2 Morse taper. That was used to get a taper that did not have excess length hanging out the front of spindles with a nominal 1-3/8" I.D. Those are the spindles that are large enough to accept a 5C collet body. Many lathes (South Bend, Logan, Sheldon, Clausing, etc.) with 1-3/8" I.D. spindles came with a hardened and ground MT 4-1/2 to MT 3 or MT 2 adapter so that commonly used MT 2 and 3 cutters and tooling MT could be used in either the headstock or tailstock. Sorry, wrong on at least two counts. Neither Logan nor South Bend used a Morse Taper on their lathes with 1-3/8" spindle bore. Logan and South Bend both used proprietary tapers, the Logan 0.070"/inch for most 11" and all 12" and 14" Lathes. South Bend used (mostly) 0.602"/foot taper. I can't say what was used on Sheldon or Clausing. Can't speak to other Clausing models but the Clausing 5900 series lathes have 4-1/2 MT tapers inside the spindles. -- +--------------------------------------------+ | Scott Logan - ssl "at" lathe.com | | Logan Actuator Co. http://www.lathe.com | | Harvard, IL | |++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++| | Parts and Accessories for Logan Lathes and | | Montgomery Wards Lathes | | Logan-Lilly Mine Hoist Safety Controllers | +--------------------------------------------+ "Measure Twice, Cut Once" RCM FAQ - http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal Metal Web News - http://www.metalwebnews.com/ Help squash SPAM: http://www.cauce.org/ |
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