I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
situation and what implementations they have adopted.

Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

TMT

In article . com,
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

cordless tools violate the 'every amp is precious' premise.

Charging batteries is *extremely* ineffcient.


When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

PTO-driven ones. The 'drive' can come from nerly anything -- a water-wheel,
a steam-engine, a tread-mill, etc. Even an electric motor, in extreme
circumstance.

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

Welding -- gas, instead of electric arc.

Air compressor -- gasoline/deiesel engint, steam-powered.

Good point on the battery charging of cordless tools.

I was thinking that they might fit in where they could be run from the
main bank of batteries themselves.

TMT

I second what Robert Bonomi has said. What's wrong with good old
fashioned human power? Such machinery was once very common. Take a
look at some pictures of old machinery, and you will find an apprentice
who is busy turning a flywheel all day long, and observing his master
at work, thereby gaining a firsthand knoiwledge which no number of
words can communicate. Nowadays, however, such flywheel turners tend
to be very expensive. Therefore, I recommend that you build yourself a
squirrelcage apparatus, and purchase a greyhound to run in it. Retired
racing greyhounds are put to death if nobody wants them. I know a lady
who has a retired racer, and he is a wonderful pet. A racer is happy
when he is racing. This is of the very nature of a racer. So give a
veteran a job, for god's sake, and build a squirrelcage power plant.

Mike Mandaville
providing meaningful solutions for the workaday world

1. Go to a big power tool store.
2. Buy a generator.
3. Buy a whole bunch of gas.
4. Start said generator
5. Plug in tools
6. Build.

And for those who might think that fart gas, otherwise known as bio
gas, is unrealistic, here is the Mother Earth News "Plowboy Interview"
of L. John Fry, who powered his farm with a generator turned by an
engine which ran on this gas. This engine ran non-stop for six solid
years:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_.../fryintvu.html

Only real solution for running tools at home is a generator. A propane
generator might be the way to go if you already have auxilary heat that
way. Typically the machines don't run terribly long at a stretch,
except maybe a sander. My jointer and table saw only run a few minutes
max.

If your pace is slow, hand tools will get it all done. Watched alone
in the wilderness the other night. He did amazing time with cutting
through several feet of spruce tree with a large western hand saw.

Alan

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
situation and what implementations they have adopted.

Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

TMT

ok things that you need a genny/huge inverter for (1) air compressor
1.1kw + , (2) arc/mig,tig welder 2.2kw + , some large routers and table
saws . the list is endless . I at presant can run my 12speed pillar
drill or chop saw (not both) from my 1 kw mod inverter . high batt
voltage will help you start large motors so use in day light hours only
(solar)

On 14 Jun 2005 12:07:53 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

8kW (surges to 16) can handle most everything a home shop is likely to
have. We have a few limitations - Hypertherm 600 suffers nuisance
cut-outs above 45 Amps. It will also temporarily shut down if the
compressor starts mid-cut. So I let the compressor tank fill, then
shut the pump power off before starting the cut. For prolonged cutting
at max output, I run the backup generator for boost. Lincoln SW TIG
175 can't be run at full output off our inverters, amp draw is too
high. Could be solved by trading up to an inverter based unit if I
didn't already have an engine driven substitute for the bigger jobs.
Powermig 255 seems perfectly happy at full output.

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Yuck! Perish the thought.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

Cordless tools are great for jobs where the cord is a nuisance, but
there' isn't any special need for them with home power. Careful though
if you're using some of the modsquare (often called modsine)
inverters, they can cook the chargers included with some cordless
tools.

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

There aren't really any special considerations unless you're trying to
get away with too-small inverter capacity. Keep in mind that if you're
maxing out system capacity in the shop, it won't be available in the
house at the same time. Having said that, I don't bother to tell my
wife what I'm up to in the shop. If together we managed to exceed
capacity, the inverters would trip off automatically. And that could
happen more easily if for instance batteries were low, and you have
surges due to large loads starting. The temporary voltage drop might
be sensed, and cause a shutdown.

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

One thing I've done with all equipment purchases is to make sure
they're easily returnable just in case they're not compatible with the
inverters. VFDs could be an issue for instance. Although the only
thing we've ever returned due to incompatibility was a bread maker
that ran at double speed.

Wayne

On 14 Jun 2005 12:55:15 -0700, "FriscoSoxFan"
wrote:

1. Go to a big power tool store.
2. Buy a generator.
3. Buy a whole bunch of gas.
4. Start said generator
5. Plug in tools
6. Build.

Booo! Hissss! Generators as a sole source are often the worst choice
for home power. Their only advantage is low up-front cost. But in the
long run they'll cost more, and are no fun to live with compared to
solar/wind/inverter/battery. Home use tends to be relatively high
energy but low power, while shop use tends to be high power but low
energy. So adding shop power usually means increasing charging sources
and batteries a little, but making the inverters substantially larger.
And if one were to choose a generator well suited for shop use, it's
likely to be way too big for backup on a properly sized home power
setup.

Wayne

On 14 Jun 2005 13:42:00 -0700, "arw01"
wrote:

Only real solution for running tools at home is a generator.

Nonsense.

Wayne

How many of these tools are going to operate at the same time? What do
those amps add up to? With some extra margin, that is the demand you need
to satisfy. It isn't the sum of all the tools, unless they will all be
running at the same time.

Steve

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
situation and what implementations they have adopted.

Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

TMT

"MikeMandaville" wrote in message
oups.com...
And for those who might think that fart gas, otherwise known as bio
gas, is unrealistic, here is the Mother Earth News "Plowboy Interview"
of L. John Fry, who powered his farm with a generator turned by an
engine which ran on this gas. This engine ran non-stop for six solid
years:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_.../fryintvu.html


AIR, it's possible to get somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-6 CF of methane
from a dry pound of biomass. It's interesting to ponder how many pounds of
biomass one must produce to replace the total consumption of natural gas in
the US. The idea can make sense in some situations but is far from a
universal solution.

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

I have also considered this. I love my machine tools, but I've always
dreamed of living off-grid. The compromise would be grid-connected to
have the power for the tools when needed.

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Or human-power supplementing electric. For example, lathe threading
done in low backgear can often be done as well or better with a
handcrank on the spindle.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

Any, recharged with dedicated solar panels.

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

Old lineshaft units, driven with water power if available.
Even an old-style windmill could be converted to turn a shaft.

You also evaluate the way you use your tools now. 90% of my lathe work
would fit in the evelope of the import 7x10 lathes, which draw about as
much power as a sewing machine.
With that in mind while looking at mills, I determined that most of
the things I wished to use a miller for would fit well within the
envelope of an Asian minimill. So far, I have not proven myself wrong.
So it may be that you could do most of what you need with smaller
equipment, retaining the bigger tools for the jobs that require them.

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

Welding - gas or small MIG/TIG

No way around the big amp draw of a compressor that I can think of.
Line-driven at night with the water power, with a big tank? Even if you
could not get to the desired pressure using alternative power, a
large-volume tank at, say 5- psi feeding a conventional compressor would
take some of the worst load off. The amp dra on starting might not be as
tough if it was fed with medium-pressure air.

I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
situation and what implementations they have adopted.

Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

TMT

I think there are other considerations besides efficiency. This depends
on your method of power generation, and how often you work. Cordless
tools can be useful because you can charge them when you have peak
power available from your source. The same is true for compressed air.
If your home's battery bank is fully charged, you can divert your
energy to building spare power for the shop in your cordless batteries,
and building up compression in your air tank.

I also think that, depending on how you work, the loads may not be so
bad. You most likely don't crank your saws constantly for hours on end.
You use these things in bursts. You may be able schedule your work so
that the extra load from these machines is manageable.

I would think, that if your home were sufficient on gas/solar/whatever,
a moderate generator for the machines and any other uses would be fine.
If one was careful a home shop would go weeks/months on a tank of fuel.

the cost of the additional storage for the occasional use would seem
overly high. I think a generator would be the cheapest solution

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
situation and what implementations they have adopted.

Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

TMT


Have you ever been in an Amish woodshop? The last time I was in one it had
very many modern woodworking machines all driven by a jackshaft. There was
a Deutz diesel engine powering the jackshaft. The amish farmers in PA where
I grew up used the same diesel engine driving a jackshaft arrangement to
pump water, compress air, run the refridgeration units for their bulk tanks
and pump water. As a side note to this, they used an interesting pump down
the well that used compressed air as power to pump the water up to a holding
tank.

Shawn

Some people, unlike you, have a real life though.

"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On 14 Jun 2005 12:55:15 -0700, "FriscoSoxFan"
wrote:

1. Go to a big power tool store.
2. Buy a generator.
3. Buy a whole bunch of gas.
4. Start said generator
5. Plug in tools
6. Build.

Booo! Hissss! Generators as a sole source are often the worst choice
for home power. Their only advantage is low up-front cost. But in the
long run they'll cost more, and are no fun to live with compared to
solar/wind/inverter/battery. Home use tends to be relatively high
energy but low power, while shop use tends to be high power but low
energy. So adding shop power usually means increasing charging sources
and batteries a little, but making the inverters substantially larger.
And if one were to choose a generator well suited for shop use, it's
likely to be way too big for backup on a properly sized home power
setup.

Wayne

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

clip

I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
situation and what implementations they have adopted.

Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

I worked in a shop with no electric and no "alternative power" tools... We
had a forge with bellows, anvil, hardies, tongs, etc., out back for metal
shaping and welding and a large selection of files, screw plates, hacksaws,
etc. For woodworking there were axes, adzes, spoke shaves, draw knives,
frame saws, panel saws, rasps, spring pole lathe, etc. Light came through
the windows... It's doable... At the time there was a 10 year waiting list
for our output.

John

FYI...I have had several emails expressing interest in this discussion.

Some of them are from viewers in Florida who commented that this topic
is revelant to their situation after last year's storms. It would seem
that many were without power for many weeks/months and were living
subsistence energy wise for a long period of time while they were
trying to rebuild their lives and property.

As one person said.." you never realize how much you rely on your power
drill until you don't have the juice to run it".

TMT

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:21:32 -0000, (Robert
Bonomi) wrote:

Charging batteries is *extremely* ineffcient.

That depends. For a typical windpower setup, you have an excess of power
you can't store when you don't need it, then a shortage when you do.
Even inefficient batteries can improve _overall_ efficiency


--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

On 14 Jun 2005 12:07:53 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Don't use the amps. I can't see any scenario where powering these tools
(bigger than trivial) from an existing setup where "every amp is
precious" can be viable. For lighting it's a different matter - simply
upping the battery capacity might be enough.

And what's the shortage here ? Amps or coulombs ? Is the limit on power
(ability to deliver it) or energy (stored capacity) ?

For convenience, go for a generator. You can use standard tools, the
cost of doing this is low, the convenience is high. For an occasional
use setup, or particularly for construction work, then this is almost
always the best way.

For improved efficiency, then go to lineshafts and a separate internal
combustion prime mover. This is likely to mean pre-WW2 vintage tools
though, and slow-speed metalworking rather than our modern high-speed
cutting. One of my neighbours has a 1900 house with its original
(commercial light engineering) workshop - power comes from a 12hp gas
engine (town gas, not gasoline) and it powers several lathes, mill and
drill by lineshaft. All still operational too! This seems more viable
for wood than for metal though.

With centralised lineshaft power, you're also geared up to use a water
turbine. I can't see this working for wind power, but water is certainly
viable. I've seen old UK cereal watermills which have had modern lathes
or potter's wheels attached to them, and smithing has regularly done
this to drive power hammers. The well-known Taunton press "Workshops"
book has photos and drawings in it of "Ben's Mill" in Vermont, a
water-powered mill with a 1900s iron water turbine, now supplemented by
a tractor.

A timber yard I use is on an old farm. It has a number of electric
machines, but the main rip saw is powered by a tractor and flat belt.
There's now a dedicated stripped-down tractor, on a permanent brick
footing.

A more modern approach than lineshafting is hydraulics. There are a
number of US religious groups (Amish, AFAIR) where there are
prohibitions on electric machinery. However a centralised diesel
hydraulic power pack and individual hydraulic motors are acceptable. Not
cheap though!

One of the simplest options is to not use powered tools at all. Why do
you need a workshop? What are you trying to make ? If you're a green
woodworker than you can use a shave horse and drawknife for much shaping
work, a pole, treadle or great-wheel lathe for turning (powered either
by the operator, or an assistant). Many such workers may also use these
in conjunction with a Wood-mizer or similar large bandsaw, with its own
petrol engine.

--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:41:55 -0500, "Mike Henry"
wrote:

The idea can make sense in some situations but is far from a
universal solution.

I've actually built one of these things. The justification was as much
waste disposal (dairy farm) as it was for power generation.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:19:59 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

"wmbjk" wrote in message
.. .
On 14 Jun 2005 12:55:15 -0700, "FriscoSoxFan"
wrote:

1. Go to a big power tool store.
2. Buy a generator.
3. Buy a whole bunch of gas.
4. Start said generator
5. Plug in tools
6. Build.

Booo! Hissss! Generators as a sole source are often the worst choice
for home power. Their only advantage is low up-front cost. But in the
long run they'll cost more, and are no fun to live with compared to
solar/wind/inverter/battery. Home use tends to be relatively high
energy but low power, while shop use tends to be high power but low
energy. So adding shop power usually means increasing charging sources
and batteries a little, but making the inverters substantially larger.
And if one were to choose a generator well suited for shop use, it's
likely to be way too big for backup on a properly sized home power
setup.

Wayne

Some people, unlike you, have a real life though.

1. If you think that generators on their own make good sense for
permanent off-grid workshops, then that's another subject that your
sock puppet army doesn't know squat about.

2. Any guy who'd post under the name "pizza girl" shouldn't be allowed
around electricity or power tools, unless it's for electroshock
therapy, or for having a frontal lobotomy hole drilled.

3. Two of your identities, including the one you're using now, already
claimed to have killfiled me, so any response from you to my posts is
just more BS.

Wayne

snip
When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?
snip
Given the current economic/social/political environment your
concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic
problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power,
but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of
spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide
tools and blanks.

Whether by design or stupidity, the American
manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being
destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant
transfer.

With the trade deficit [current account trade balance]
approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a
degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is
near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even
a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars].

Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing)
domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills,
gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most
critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house
of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out,
replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted.

Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and
dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron
foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or
more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons
of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no
assurance that the time required will be available before America
must again meet a serious international challenge to its
existence / hegemony.

On 2005-06-14 said:
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.
woodworking
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully
get a good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if
this offends anyone.
When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working
capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop
in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious?
Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.
Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?
When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is
off grid?
Special operations like welding and using air compressors would
seem to need consideration because of their unique requirements.
I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
situation and what implementations they have adopted.
Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.
TMT
My shop contains a 1HP air compressor (real, 1970's DeVilbiss), Miller
135amp 120volt MIG welder, metal lathe, drill press, radial-arm saw,
small table saw, assorted powered hand tools.

Because of all the motors, I chose a Trace sinewave inverter, 4KW to
cover starting surges (SW4024). Battery is 550 amp-hour, 24 volt,
T-105 golf cart, 3 parallel strings of 4 each. 1 KW of PV panels (16
Solarex 64 watt). System is in its 6th year of operation, supplying
household and work needs.

I work alone, so machines are run singly. Duty cycle is low; so is
energy consumption. I have yet to need to run a generator to cover
my working load, though I do use it to maintain the battery in our
rare cloudy weather, then avoiding power-intensive work.

When the shop was under construction, power initially was from the
generator. Most of the time is just sat, thrashing at no load, being
totally inefficient. Later construction was powered by the solar
system, blessedly silently recharging itself in between power draws.

When I have production welding, sand blasting, or intensive use of an
air-powered die grinder, I will probably have to use the generator,
passing power through the inverter and maintaining the battery
charge.


Tom Willmon
near Mountainair, (mid) New Mexico, USA

Net-Tamer V 1.12.0 - Registered

F. George McDuffee wrote:
snip

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

snip
Given the current economic/social/political environment your
concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic
problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power,
but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of
spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide
tools and blanks.

Whether by design or stupidity, the American
manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being
destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant
transfer.

With the trade deficit [current account trade balance]
approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a
degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is
near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even
a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars].

Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing)
domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills,
gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most
critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house
of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out,
replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted.

Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and
dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron
foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or
more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons
of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no
assurance that the time required will be available before America
must again meet a serious international challenge to its
existence / hegemony.

How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ?

Thanks for posting...actual daily experience carries alot of weight.

What is the largest motor that your equipment has?

Any of them three phase? I ask because many times industrial equipment
has three phase motors.

Any desire for changing any of the motors to DC?

TMT

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:36:34 -0700, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

snip
When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?
snip
Given the current economic/social/political environment your
concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic
problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power,
but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of
spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide
tools and blanks. =20

Whether by design or stupidity, the American
manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being
destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant
transfer.

With the trade deficit [current account trade balance]
approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a
degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is
near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even
a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars]. =20

Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing)
domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills,
gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most
critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house
of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out,
replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted.

Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and
dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron
foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or
more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons
of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no
assurance that the time required will be available before America
must again meet a serious international challenge to its
existence / hegemony.=20



Well, hell. Might as well just cash in your chips now. Take a quick
vacation, and then head for your local crematorium.=20

Sheesh, George. You really need to get out mo-)

Matt

"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On 14 Jun 2005 12:07:53 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

We have a few limitations - Hypertherm 600 suffers nuisance
cut-outs above 45 Amps. It will also temporarily shut down if the
compressor starts mid-cut. So I let the compressor tank fill, then
shut the pump power off before starting the cut.

I only use my compressor for about 15-30 minutes a day. Right now I'm using
a gasoline generator to run it but I am considering the possibility of using
a belt-driven generator and replacing the AC motor with a 12 VDC motor. For
my purposes it won't matter much if it takes a little longer (lower gear
ratio on the compressor) to fill the tank. I also always manage to find
something to do while compressor is filling the tank anyway. The main
problem I see with a 12 volt compressor is motor life and having to change
the brushes etc.

I also use more human-powered tools than I would if I was connected to the
grid. For example I make custom picture frames and I can either (in most
cases) use a big noisy double-miter saw that uses a lot of power and throws
sawdust all over the place or use a foot-powered chopper that makes hardly
any noise and produces wood chips that I expect will be suitable fuel for
the woodgas generator that I plan to build in the not-to-distant future.

A few people mentioned that cordless tools are ineffecient but hey, it sure
is nice to be able to grab a cordless drill when you only need to drill a
couple of small holes and not have to go start anything up or turn anything
else on.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:12:06 -0500, Rex B wrote:



F. George McDuffee wrote:
snip

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

snip
Given the current economic/social/political environment your
concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic
problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power,
but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of
spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide
tools and blanks.

Whether by design or stupidity, the American
manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being
destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant
transfer.

With the trade deficit [current account trade balance]
approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a
degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is
near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even
a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars].

Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing)
domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills,
gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most
critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house
of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out,
replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted.

Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and
dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron
foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or
more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons
of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no
assurance that the time required will be available before America
must again meet a serious international challenge to its
existence / hegemony.

How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ?

They are as intertwined as salt and pepper.

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:36:34 -0700, F.George wrote:
snip
Given the current economic/social/political environment your
concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic
problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power,
but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of
spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide
tools and blanks.

Whether by design or stupidity, the American
manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being
destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant
transfer.

Thank you, Chicken Little.

With the trade deficit [current account trade balance]
approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a
degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is
near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even
a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars].

Odd, that's not what my crystal ball tells me. ;-)

And that "trade deficit" is the stupidest boogeyman ever perpetrated -
well, at least up in the top five stupid boogeymen - since the
nervous nellies found out that it's a scary buzzword.

Do you even have any idea what a "trade deficit" _is_? It means
we have two billion dollars more per day to spend on their crap
than they have to spend on our crap. That means WE ARE TWO BILLION
DOLLARS RICHER THAN THEY ARE!!!!! PER DAY!!!!!!!!!!

You have a significant "trade deficit" with the grocery store.
How much do you spend there? Maybe $100.00/week? That's a ONE
HUNDRED DOLLARS PER WEEK TRADE DEFICIT with the grocery store.
They don't buy anything from you, do they?

And imagine your employer's trade deficit with _you_! He buys
your labor for, what, $50K, $100K/year? How much stuff do you
buy from him? Your EMPLOYER HAS A SERIOUS TRADE DEFICIT WITH
YOU!!!!!

"Trade Deficit". Pfaugh!

Thanks!
Rich

snip
And that "trade deficit" is the stupidest boogeyman ever perpetrated -
well, at least up in the top five stupid boogeymen - since the
nervous nellies found out that it's a scary buzzword.

Do you even have any idea what a "trade deficit" _is_? It means
we have two billion dollars more per day to spend on their crap
than they have to spend on our crap. That means WE ARE TWO BILLION
DOLLARS RICHER THAN THEY ARE!!!!! PER DAY!!!!!!!!!!
snip
==================
Please forward this wonderful news to the International Monetary
Fund [IMF], the government of Argentina and the Argentinian
bondholders. It will cheer them no end.

Greetings and Salutations....

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:29:43 GMT, Richard the Dreaded Libertarian
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:36:34 -0700, F.George wrote:
snip
Given the current economic/social/political environment your
concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic
problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power,
but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of
spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide
tools and blanks.

Whether by design or stupidity, the American
manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being
destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant
transfer.

Thank you, Chicken Little.

Hum...so you DON'T think it is a problem that America
is losing the knowledge, skills and tools to manufacture
even the basic tools we need to keep society going and the
infrastructure kept up?


With the trade deficit [current account trade balance]
approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a
degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is
near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even
a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars].

Odd, that's not what my crystal ball tells me. ;-)

And that "trade deficit" is the stupidest boogeyman ever perpetrated -
well, at least up in the top five stupid boogeymen - since the
nervous nellies found out that it's a scary buzzword.

Do you even have any idea what a "trade deficit" _is_? It means
we have two billion dollars more per day to spend on their crap
than they have to spend on our crap. That means WE ARE TWO BILLION
DOLLARS RICHER THAN THEY ARE!!!!! PER DAY!!!!!!!!!!

You have a significant "trade deficit" with the grocery store.
How much do you spend there? Maybe $100.00/week? That's a ONE
HUNDRED DOLLARS PER WEEK TRADE DEFICIT with the grocery store.
They don't buy anything from you, do they?

And imagine your employer's trade deficit with _you_! He buys
your labor for, what, $50K, $100K/year? How much stuff do you
buy from him? Your EMPLOYER HAS A SERIOUS TRADE DEFICIT WITH
YOU!!!!!

"Trade Deficit". Pfaugh!

Thanks!
Rich
UT o

While your point may have some validity here, the
major difference is that the money in your examples is
circulating INSIDE the USA. The dollars spent in a
foreign market are dollars that are taken out of the
economy "forever".
As an analogy, if dollars are the life-blood
of the economy, foreign trade is like cutting an
artery.
Now...The fact of the matter is that SOME of
those dollars DO come back in, but, since it is a
DEFICIT, far more are going out than are coming in.
Those dollars have to be replaced in the economy
somehow. One "bad" way is to simply print more
money. While this gets more bucks in circulation,
it also cuts down on the value of each dollar.
We have to remember that the world economy
is more like a war than a cheerful family gathering.
All the countries in the world are jockeying to
gain advantage over the other countries, and, one
way to do that is to drain the cash of one country.
America, although economically large, is
not infinite, and, if we believed we were, we would
be fools. The fact that the dollar has dropped
in relative value on the world market is proof that
the deficits are having their desired effects. Also,
remember that the growing European Union can (and
perhaps already has) become a larger economic power
than America.
Finally, there is the basic problem that
the world, in general, is not a friendly place.
Countries that were our friends are now our
enemies; countries that were our enemies are
now our friends; The only lesson we can
learn from this is that this is likely to
happen again, so, to end up totally dependent
on another country for our major manufacturing
is a stupid thing to do.

Regards
Dave Mundt

Thanks for the reply.

I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since
one can recharge them during off load hours.

Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to
retrofit something like a table saw?

In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but
unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am
not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have
taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven
tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels
to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than
necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy.

TMT

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:00:35 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:12:06 -0500, Rex B wrote:

How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ?

They are as intertwined as salt and pepper.

Gunner

No, they aren't. Most of us who actually live with alternative power,
don't consider ourselves "survivalists". I sure don't want anything to
do with the label, especially after the general corruption of its
meaning by the Dale Gribble types, who are often able to magically
separate self-reliance from the definition.

The general advantage of being able to make use of home power is to
improve quality of life. For instance, off-grid land tends to be
cheaper, and it's farther away from the hustle and bustle. A desire to
say, have more acres farther from town rather than fewer closer in, or
to get away from noise, smog, and the neighbors' yappy dogs, hasn't
anything to do with the oft-blogged irrational paranoia of so-called
survivalists, some of whom apparently can't even do without brand-name
soda.

Wayne

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Thanks for the reply.

I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since
one can recharge them during off load hours.

Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to
retrofit something like a table saw?

In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but
unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am
not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have
taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven
tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels
to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than
necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy.

TMT



There was a recent article in one of the wood working magazines about
cordless tools on the higher end beginning to use lithium ion batteries
instead of nicads. Apparently they can give one hell of a current draw
and run at a slightly higher voltage (28V?). Anyway, along with the
usual benefits for contractors on cordless drills and such there was
great promise for cordless table saws and larger equipment due to the
ability to run for extended periods at the higher current draw.

It doesn't help today but there is hope in the near future for the
off-gridders and job site work.

Koz

On 15 Jun 2005 11:36:20 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

Thanks for the reply.

I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since
one can recharge them during off load hours.

Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to
retrofit something like a table saw?

In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but
unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am
not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have
taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven
tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels
to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than
necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy.

TMT

I really hesitate to jump in on this topic, but I advise you to make
sure to do your research carefully before pursuing the replacement of
AC motors with DC motors.

In the early days of homepower which was nearly universally 12V on the
primary side, this was a pretty common practice, but in the overall
picture of things today I'm not sure it's warranted in the general
case.

At one time I was given to understand that DC motors are just innately
more efficient than AC. It appears that this is not necessarily so,
and has much to do with the crappy design and build quality of
"shovelware" AC motors than any basic electromechanical principles. To
know whether you would actually be further ahead after a DC
conversion, you would have to consider each case individually.
Ignoring power factor, a 12V load of power "x" draws 10 times the
current that an 120VAC load will draw. Will the losses you avoid by
bypassing the inverter get chewed up in the wire? How close to the
battery room will the workshop be?

I started out at 12V primary by virtue of buying a house with an
existing PV system. Like many frontier homebrew systems, it had
started as a purely DC system to which an inverter was added later.

Having no plumbing in the house, I've acquired a number of small 12V
pumps for various specific purposes, such as our bucket shower.
Fortunately this hasn't represented a significant investment. With
each system upgrade I left myself options for going to a higher
primary voltage, and recently made the move to 24V when we replaced
our chargerless mod square wave inverter with a sine wave
inverter/charger. At some distant point in the future we might even
make the jump to 48V, but for the moment, 24V was "just right."

The punchline is that our little pumps (and other 12V DC loads) are
now running off a 24V/12V DC-DC converter. In the overall picture of
things this crazy scenario actually still makes sense here, but again
these are *small* loads.

The moral is that when you choose to run DC loads, you're creating
specialized equipment and there are serious implications that might
not be immediately obvious. If you stick with AC loads, your wire runs
can be far longer for a given power throughput / wire guage, you can
reconfigure the primary side of your system without affecting anything
on the load side, use a common AC generator when it's more convenient
or more sensible to do so, or take your gear with you and use it
elsewhere.

Having "inherited" a mixed DC/AC system and lived with it, off-grid,
for five years, there is no question in my mind that the new house we
build here will be wired almost entirely for conventional AC and will
likely have only some emergency lighting (power room!), and perhaps a
few very special-purpose devices and outlets wired for DC.

YMMV.

-=s

Well, hell. Might as well just cash in your chips now. Take a quick
vacation, and then head for your local crematorium.

Matt

Many of these are now self-service. You just put your money in the
machine, and then lie down in your coffin. :-)

Mike Mandaville

In article .com,
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote:

Thanks for posting...actual daily experience carries alot of weight.

What is the largest motor that your equipment has?

Any of them three phase? I ask because many times industrial equipment
has three phase motors.

Any desire for changing any of the motors to DC?

TMT


3 Phase motors really aren't a problem if you just use a FreqDrive that
is 1 Phase input and 3 Phase output.

Me