What is the best way to repair a hole in the wall that was punched in
by a door handle?

My first thought is to use those steel mesh things that you just
adhere over the area, mud, sand and texture.

Recently I also learned that you can cut out a square/rectangle and
install a piece of replacement sheetrock held by "instabacks" - those
brackets that allow you to anchor sheetrock adjacent to sheetrock. Or
use a couple pieces of wood behind the wall might work for this
purpose also. The problem would then be I have to mud and tape 4
sides which I'm not the best at. I have tried this in the garage and
looks decent but I'm not sure if I am up for it for inside the house.
Or maybe this technique might be better for bigger holes.


So I am thinking that with my skills.. the mesh patches might blend in
better rather than being able to see a subtle rectangular repair.

What's is your opinion?

jj3000 wrote:
What is the best way to repair a hole in the wall that was punched in
by a door handle?

My first thought is to use those steel mesh things that you just
adhere over the area, mud, sand and texture.

Recently I also learned that you can cut out a square/rectangle and
install a piece of replacement sheetrock held by "instabacks" - those
brackets that allow you to anchor sheetrock adjacent to sheetrock. Or
use a couple pieces of wood behind the wall might work for this
purpose also. The problem would then be I have to mud and tape 4
sides which I'm not the best at. I have tried this in the garage and
looks decent but I'm not sure if I am up for it for inside the house.
Or maybe this technique might be better for bigger holes.


So I am thinking that with my skills.. the mesh patches might blend in
better rather than being able to see a subtle rectangular repair.

What's is your opinion?


If the holes aren't too large you might consider covering them with some
doorknob wall bumper plates. Some of them have rubber pads on them. They
will avoid future damage unless someone REALLY whacks the doorknob into
the wall. Or, at least put a bumper on after you patch the wall.

Like on this page:

http://www.adamsmfg.com/protectors.htm

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

"jj3000" wrote in message
om...
What is the best way to repair a hole in the wall that was punched in
by a door handle?

My first thought is to use those steel mesh things that you just
adhere over the area, mud, sand and texture.

Recently I also learned that you can cut out a square/rectangle and
install a piece of replacement sheetrock held by "instabacks" - those
brackets that allow you to anchor sheetrock adjacent to sheetrock. Or
use a couple pieces of wood behind the wall might work for this
purpose also. The problem would then be I have to mud and tape 4
sides which I'm not the best at. I have tried this in the garage and
looks decent but I'm not sure if I am up for it for inside the house.
Or maybe this technique might be better for bigger holes.


So I am thinking that with my skills.. the mesh patches might blend in
better rather than being able to see a subtle rectangular repair.

What's is your opinion?

Cut it out enough to get a couple of scab boards behind the hole. Secure
them in place. Add the drywall patch. Finish two sides at a time. Getting
in a hurry and trying to do all 4 at the same time results in frustration
and an inferior job for most of us.

So whole cares if it takes a week to do it right as long as it looks great
when you are done?


Colbyt

jj3000 wrote:
What is the best way to repair a hole in the wall that was punched in
by a door handle?

My first thought is to use those steel mesh things that you just
adhere over the area, mud, sand and texture.

Recently I also learned that you can cut out a square/rectangle and
install a piece of replacement sheetrock held by "instabacks" - those
brackets that allow you to anchor sheetrock adjacent to sheetrock. Or
use a couple pieces of wood behind the wall might work for this
purpose also. The problem would then be I have to mud and tape 4
sides which I'm not the best at. I have tried this in the garage and
looks decent but I'm not sure if I am up for it for inside the house.
Or maybe this technique might be better for bigger holes.


So I am thinking that with my skills.. the mesh patches might blend in
better rather than being able to see a subtle rectangular repair.

What's is your opinion?

Best solution I've tried:
http://www.knobnest.com/
Even lets the door open just a little wider too.
Plus, you don't have to match mud texture and paint.

--
Grandpa Koca - SAHD for 6 - Keeper of the Perpetual Kindergarten

My opinion is neither copyrighted nor trademarked. It is price
competitive. If you like, I'll trade for one of yours.

"jj3000" wrote in message
om...
What is the best way to repair a hole in the wall that was punched in
by a door handle?

My first thought is to use those steel mesh things that you just
adhere over the area, mud, sand and texture.

Recently I also learned that you can cut out a square/rectangle and
install a piece of replacement sheetrock held by "instabacks" - those
brackets that allow you to anchor sheetrock adjacent to sheetrock. Or
use a couple pieces of wood behind the wall might work for this
purpose also. The problem would then be I have to mud and tape 4
sides which I'm not the best at. I have tried this in the garage and
looks decent but I'm not sure if I am up for it for inside the house.
Or maybe this technique might be better for bigger holes.


So I am thinking that with my skills.. the mesh patches might blend in
better rather than being able to see a subtle rectangular repair.

What's is your opinion?

My method for fixing such holes is as follows:

1) If the punch out is in one piece, save it.
2) Make a support board to place behind the hole. I usually rip a 2x4 about
1/2" thick and 5 or 6 inches long.
3) Put a temporary drywall screw in the middle of your board to hold it
tight against the inside of your hole, while you put a couple of screws in
your board to hold it in place. Remove your temporary screw.
4) Screw your saved piece (punch out) to the support board you installed.
You can make a replacement with a hole saw, if your punch out is broken up
or lost inside the wall. A rectangular patch works too of course, depending
on your hole.
5) Mud/tape and sand as required. Makes a nice patch.

I also use this for repairing any holes I made to fish wires.

1. Cut off the loose wall board
2. Using construction adhesive in a caulking tube, glue thin wood such as a
piece of yard stick to the back of the wall board (inside the wall)
3. Glue a piece of wall board on to wood support.
4. Patch with wall board compound (follow instructions on package.)



What's is your opinion?

My method for fixing such holes is as follows:

1) If the punch out is in one piece, save it.
2) Make a support board to place behind the hole. I usually rip a 2x4
about
1/2" thick and 5 or 6 inches long.
3) Put a temporary drywall screw in the middle of your board to hold it
tight against the inside of your hole, while you put a couple of screws in
your board to hold it in place. Remove your temporary screw.
4) Screw your saved piece (punch out) to the support board you installed.
You can make a replacement with a hole saw, if your punch out is broken up
or lost inside the wall. A rectangular patch works too of course,
depending
on your hole.
5) Mud/tape and sand as required. Makes a nice patch.

I also use this for repairing any holes I made to fish wires.

In article ,
says...
What is the best way to repair a hole in the wall that was punched in
by a door handle?

My first thought is to use those steel mesh things that you just
adhere over the area, mud, sand and texture.

Get a round oak medallion, at least 6" diameter, paint or stain to match
the door, and install over the hole in the wall so you don't have to
patch it again next yer.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Books for Bicycle Mechanics and Tinkerers:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/bikebooks.html

"Joshua Putnam" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
What is the best way to repair a hole in the wall that was punched in
by a door handle?

My first thought is to use those steel mesh things that you just
adhere over the area, mud, sand and texture.

Get a round oak medallion, at least 6" diameter, paint or stain to match
the door, and install over the hole in the wall so you don't have to
patch it again next yer.


Then add the little rubber stop in the center of the medallion so it absorbs
a lot of the shock of the doorknob otherwise hitting the medallion.



--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Books for Bicycle Mechanics and Tinkerers:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/bikebooks.html

"Colbyt" wrote in
:


"jj3000" wrote in message
om...
What is the best way to repair a hole in the wall that was punched in
by a door handle?

My first thought is to use those steel mesh things that you just
adhere over the area, mud, sand and texture.

Recently I also learned that you can cut out a square/rectangle and
install a piece of replacement sheetrock held by "instabacks" - those
brackets that allow you to anchor sheetrock adjacent to sheetrock.
Or use a couple pieces of wood behind the wall might work for this
purpose also. The problem would then be I have to mud and tape 4
sides which I'm not the best at. I have tried this in the garage and
looks decent but I'm not sure if I am up for it for inside the house.
Or maybe this technique might be better for bigger holes.


So I am thinking that with my skills.. the mesh patches might blend
in better rather than being able to see a subtle rectangular repair.

What's is your opinion?

Cut it out enough to get a couple of scab boards behind the hole.
Secure them in place. Add the drywall patch. Finish two sides at a
time. Getting in a hurry and trying to do all 4 at the same time
results in frustration and an inferior job for most of us.

So whole cares if it takes a week to do it right as long as it looks
great when you are done?


Colbyt



I pick up some paint mixing sticks(free at HD) to use as back supports for
wallboard patches;glue or screw them in,and the same for the patch.They cut
easily,score them with a utility knife and snap off what you need.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

"New & Improved - N/F John" wrote in
:

1. Cut off the loose wall board
2. Using construction adhesive in a caulking tube, glue thin wood such
as a piece of yard stick

Or those FREE paint mixing sticks.

to the back of the wall board (inside the
wall) 3. Glue a piece of wall board on to wood support.
4. Patch with wall board compound (follow instructions on package.)


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

You emphasize FREE but who do YOU think pays for them?

On 8 Feb 2005 16:56:22 GMT, Jim Yanik . wrote:

"New & Improved - N/F John" wrote in
:

1. Cut off the loose wall board
2. Using construction adhesive in a caulking tube, glue thin wood such
as a piece of yard stick

Or those FREE paint mixing sticks.

to the back of the wall board (inside the
wall) 3. Glue a piece of wall board on to wood support.
4. Patch with wall board compound (follow instructions on package.)

"New & Improved - N/F John" wrote in message
...
1. Cut off the loose wall board
2. Using construction adhesive in a caulking tube, glue thin wood such as
a
piece of yard stick to the back of the wall board (inside the wall)
3. Glue a piece of wall board on to wood support.
4. Patch with wall board compound (follow instructions on package.)



What's is your opinion?

My method for fixing such holes is as follows:

1) If the punch out is in one piece, save it.
2) Make a support board to place behind the hole. I usually rip a 2x4
about
1/2" thick and 5 or 6 inches long.
3) Put a temporary drywall screw in the middle of your board to hold it
tight against the inside of your hole, while you put a couple of screws
in
your board to hold it in place. Remove your temporary screw.
4) Screw your saved piece (punch out) to the support board you installed.
You can make a replacement with a hole saw, if your punch out is broken
up
or lost inside the wall. A rectangular patch works too of course,
depending
on your hole.
5) Mud/tape and sand as required. Makes a nice patch.

I also use this for repairing any holes I made to fish wires.

One additional method just for grins. I don't see any single method being
intrinsically superior to another:
1-Cut a square/rectangular hole be sure to make it large enough to get all
damaged drywall. When you make the cuts, bevel the edges at about
30-45degrees making the outer edges wider than the inner edge.
2-Cut the patch with beveled edges to fit. The beveled edges will ensure
that the patch will not fall through the hole.
3-Butter the edges of the patch with drywall mud and insert it in the hole.
4-Tape, mud, sand the patch as required.

Just my two cents worth.
Dave D

NEAT IDEA!



On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 02:01:40 GMT, Grandpa Koca wrote:

jj3000 wrote:
What is the best way to repair a hole in the wall that was punched in
by a door handle?

My first thought is to use those steel mesh things that you just
adhere over the area, mud, sand and texture.

Recently I also learned that you can cut out a square/rectangle and
install a piece of replacement sheetrock held by "instabacks" - those
brackets that allow you to anchor sheetrock adjacent to sheetrock. Or
use a couple pieces of wood behind the wall might work for this
purpose also. The problem would then be I have to mud and tape 4
sides which I'm not the best at. I have tried this in the garage and
looks decent but I'm not sure if I am up for it for inside the house.
Or maybe this technique might be better for bigger holes.


So I am thinking that with my skills.. the mesh patches might blend in
better rather than being able to see a subtle rectangular repair.

What's is your opinion?

Best solution I've tried:
http://www.knobnest.com/
Even lets the door open just a little wider too.
Plus, you don't have to match mud texture and paint.

Bob Bowles wrote in
:

You emphasize FREE but who do YOU think pays for them?

On 8 Feb 2005 16:56:22 GMT, Jim Yanik . wrote:

"New & Improved - N/F John" wrote in
:

1. Cut off the loose wall board
2. Using construction adhesive in a caulking tube, glue thin wood such
as a piece of yard stick

Or those FREE paint mixing sticks.


Home Depot's profits.They chose to accept slightly(very slightly) lower
profits in order to give them away.The sticks price is probably so low,it's
not worth the time to inventory,price them,and ring them up.
And it's not like people are going to go into a collecting frenzy.
People pick some up when they buy paint or other HD products.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Yeah, I guess so. My experience is the new backing makes cutting the patch
piece less exact and more forgiving. Whatever fixes the hole and is strong
is good.


One additional method just for grins. I don't see any single method being
intrinsically superior to another:
1-Cut a square/rectangular hole be sure to make it large enough to get all
damaged drywall. When you make the cuts, bevel the edges at about
30-45degrees making the outer edges wider than the inner edge.
2-Cut the patch with beveled edges to fit. The beveled edges will ensure
that the patch will not fall through the hole.
3-Butter the edges of the patch with drywall mud and insert it in the
hole.
4-Tape, mud, sand the patch as required.

Just my two cents worth.
Dave D

Phila has an average daily min and max of 67.2 and 86.1 F in July. Two A ft^2
vents with one-way plastic film dampers and a 16 ft height difference and a
DT (F) temp diff would allow 16.6Asqrt(16DT) cfm to flow at night, cooling
a house by cfmDT Btu/h. What would the average July temp be in a house with
10K Btu/F of thermal capacitance and 200 Btu/h-F of conductance and no internal
heat gain and 2 4'x4' vents with a 16' height difference, and no fan?

10 PI=4*ATN(1)
20 TH=76'initial house temp (F)
30 FOR D=1 TO 100'simulate 100 average July days
40 FOR H=0 TO 23 STEP .1
50 TA=(86.1+67.2)/2+(86.1-67.2)/2*SIN(2*PI*H/24)'outdoor temp (F)
60 IC=(TH-TA)*200'conductive loss (+) or gain (-)
70 IF THTA THEN IV=16.6*16*SQR(16)*(TH-TA)^1.5 ELSE IV=0'vent cooling (Btu)
80 TH=TH-(IC+IV)/10000*.1'new house temp (F)
90 NEXT H
100 NEXT D
110 PRINT TH

75.96505 (close to the average daily temp) with no vent

69.50536 (2.3 F above the min) with 2 4'x4' vents

With a higher house conductance, the vents make less difference, eg 73.3
vs 69.5 F at 1000 Btu/h-F. The vents above would move a 24-hour average
16.6x16sqrt(16(76.7-69.5)) = 2851 cfm, comparable to a whole-house fan.
With humidity sensing and motorized dampers, they could help heat a house.

Nick

wrote in message
...
Phila has an average daily min and max of 67.2 and 86.1 F in July. Two A
ft^2
vents with one-way plastic film dampers and a 16 ft height difference and
a
DT (F) temp diff would allow 16.6Asqrt(16DT) cfm to flow at night, cooling
a house by cfmDT Btu/h. What would the average July temp be in a house
with
10K Btu/F of thermal capacitance and 200 Btu/h-F of conductance and no
internal
heat gain and 2 4'x4' vents with a 16' height difference, and no fan?

They said there wasn't gonna be any math on this test..........


;-]

wrote in message
...
Phila has an average daily min and max of 67.2 and 86.1 F in July. Two A
ft^2
vents with one-way plastic film dampers and a 16 ft height difference and
a
DT (F) temp diff would allow 16.6Asqrt(16DT) cfm to flow at night, cooling
a house by cfmDT Btu/h. What would the average July temp be in a house
with
10K Btu/F of thermal capacitance and 200 Btu/h-F of conductance and no
internal
heat gain and 2 4'x4' vents with a 16' height difference, and no fan?

I don't dispute any of the calculations. I have, however, lived in Philly
in the summer. While the average max may be 86.1 degrees, that is the
temperature taken at the weather station. In the city, it can easily be 90+
for days on end and lows in the high 80's as the heat sink of a brick row
house and concrete sidewalks holds the energy.

Northing beat an air conditioner for comfort.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news4NSd.68084$g16.29194@trndny08...

wrote in message
...
Phila has an average daily min and max of 67.2 and 86.1 F in July. Two A
ft^2
vents with one-way plastic film dampers and a 16 ft height difference
and
a
DT (F) temp diff would allow 16.6Asqrt(16DT) cfm to flow at night,
cooling
a house by cfmDT Btu/h. What would the average July temp be in a house
with
10K Btu/F of thermal capacitance and 200 Btu/h-F of conductance and no
internal
heat gain and 2 4'x4' vents with a 16' height difference, and no fan?

I don't dispute any of the calculations. I have, however, lived in Philly
in the summer. While the average max may be 86.1 degrees, that is the
temperature taken at the weather station. In the city, it can easily be
90+
for days on end and lows in the high 80's as the heat sink of a brick row
house and concrete sidewalks holds the energy.

Northing beat an air conditioner for comfort.

I, too, have lived in Philly. Come July you won't feel like doing those
calculations

In the days of the British Empire, Philly was considered a "hardship post",
due to the extreme summer heat. I have had friends from New Dehli, one of
the hottest places on the planet, say that West Philly, where they resided,
was just as bad.

And this is also why they became the cream cheese capital of the planet.

What would be the dewpoint of this air you were ventilating with?

Could be humidifying the home. Lots of latent storage in wood and
drywall.


wrote:
Phila has an average daily min and max of 67.2 and 86.1 F in July.
Two A ft^2
vents with one-way plastic film dampers and a 16 ft height difference
and a
DT (F) temp diff would allow 16.6Asqrt(16DT) cfm to flow at night,
cooling
a house by cfmDT Btu/h. What would the average July temp be in a
house with
10K Btu/F of thermal capacitance and 200 Btu/h-F of conductance and
no internal
heat gain and 2 4'x4' vents with a 16' height difference, and no fan?


10 PI=4*ATN(1)
20 TH=76'initial house temp (F)
30 FOR D=1 TO 100'simulate 100 average July days
40 FOR H=0 TO 23 STEP .1
50 TA=(86.1+67.2)/2+(86.1-67.2)/2*SIN(2*PI*H/24)'outdoor temp (F)
60 IC=(TH-TA)*200'conductive loss (+) or gain (-)
70 IF THTA THEN IV=16.6*16*SQR(16)*(TH-TA)^1.5 ELSE IV=0'vent
cooling (Btu)
80 TH=TH-(IC+IV)/10000*.1'new house temp (F)
90 NEXT H
100 NEXT D
110 PRINT TH

75.96505 (close to the average daily temp) with no vent

69.50536 (2.3 F above the min) with 2 4'x4' vents

With a higher house conductance, the vents make less difference, eg
73.3
vs 69.5 F at 1000 Btu/h-F. The vents above would move a 24-hour
average
16.6x16sqrt(16(76.7-69.5)) = 2851 cfm, comparable to a whole-house
fan.
With humidity sensing and motorized dampers, they could help heat a
house.

Nick

I don't live in Philadelphia. What should I do?

wrote in message
...
Phila has an average daily min and max of 67.2 and 86.1 F in July. Two A
ft^2
vents with one-way plastic film dampers and a 16 ft height difference and
a
DT (F) temp diff would allow 16.6Asqrt(16DT) cfm to flow at night, cooling
a house by cfmDT Btu/h. What would the average July temp be in a house
with
10K Btu/F of thermal capacitance and 200 Btu/h-F of conductance and no
internal
heat gain and 2 4'x4' vents with a 16' height difference, and no fan?

10 PI=4*ATN(1)
20 TH=76'initial house temp (F)
30 FOR D=1 TO 100'simulate 100 average July days
40 FOR H=0 TO 23 STEP .1
50 TA=(86.1+67.2)/2+(86.1-67.2)/2*SIN(2*PI*H/24)'outdoor temp (F)
60 IC=(TH-TA)*200'conductive loss (+) or gain (-)
70 IF THTA THEN IV=16.6*16*SQR(16)*(TH-TA)^1.5 ELSE IV=0'vent cooling
(Btu)
80 TH=TH-(IC+IV)/10000*.1'new house temp (F)
90 NEXT H
100 NEXT D
110 PRINT TH

75.96505 (close to the average daily temp) with no vent

69.50536 (2.3 F above the min) with 2 4'x4' vents

With a higher house conductance, the vents make less difference, eg 73.3
vs 69.5 F at 1000 Btu/h-F. The vents above would move a 24-hour average
16.6x16sqrt(16(76.7-69.5)) = 2851 cfm, comparable to a whole-house fan.
With humidity sensing and motorized dampers, they could help heat a house.

Nick

plug in temps for your local area .....

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004587.html

Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

Bughunter wrote:
I don't live in Philadelphia. What should I do?

wrote in message
...

Phila has an average daily min and max of 67.2 and 86.1 F in July. Two A
ft^2
vents with one-way plastic film dampers and a 16 ft height difference and
a
DT (F) temp diff would allow 16.6Asqrt(16DT) cfm to flow at night, cooling
a house by cfmDT Btu/h. What would the average July temp be in a house
with
10K Btu/F of thermal capacitance and 200 Btu/h-F of conductance and no
internal
heat gain and 2 4'x4' vents with a 16' height difference, and no fan?

10 PI=4*ATN(1)
20 TH=76'initial house temp (F)
30 FOR D=1 TO 100'simulate 100 average July days
40 FOR H=0 TO 23 STEP .1
50 TA=(86.1+67.2)/2+(86.1-67.2)/2*SIN(2*PI*H/24)'outdoor temp (F)
60 IC=(TH-TA)*200'conductive loss (+) or gain (-)
70 IF THTA THEN IV=16.6*16*SQR(16)*(TH-TA)^1.5 ELSE IV=0'vent cooling
(Btu)
80 TH=TH-(IC+IV)/10000*.1'new house temp (F)
90 NEXT H
100 NEXT D
110 PRINT TH

75.96505 (close to the average daily temp) with no vent

69.50536 (2.3 F above the min) with 2 4'x4' vents

With a higher house conductance, the vents make less difference, eg 73.3
vs 69.5 F at 1000 Btu/h-F. The vents above would move a 24-hour average
16.6x16sqrt(16(76.7-69.5)) = 2851 cfm, comparable to a whole-house fan.
With humidity sensing and motorized dampers, they could help heat a house.

Nick

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:51:17 GMT, "Bughunter" wrote:

I don't live in Philadelphia. What should I do?

Rejoice.


wrote in message
...
Phila has an average daily min and max of 67.2 and 86.1 F in July. Two A
ft^2
vents with one-way plastic film dampers and a 16 ft height difference and
a
DT (F) temp diff would allow 16.6Asqrt(16DT) cfm to flow at night, cooling
a house by cfmDT Btu/h. What would the average July temp be in a house
with
10K Btu/F of thermal capacitance and 200 Btu/h-F of conductance and no
internal
heat gain and 2 4'x4' vents with a 16' height difference, and no fan?

10 PI=4*ATN(1)
20 TH=76'initial house temp (F)
30 FOR D=1 TO 100'simulate 100 average July days
40 FOR H=0 TO 23 STEP .1
50 TA=(86.1+67.2)/2+(86.1-67.2)/2*SIN(2*PI*H/24)'outdoor temp (F)
60 IC=(TH-TA)*200'conductive loss (+) or gain (-)
70 IF THTA THEN IV=16.6*16*SQR(16)*(TH-TA)^1.5 ELSE IV=0'vent cooling
(Btu)
80 TH=TH-(IC+IV)/10000*.1'new house temp (F)
90 NEXT H
100 NEXT D
110 PRINT TH

75.96505 (close to the average daily temp) with no vent

69.50536 (2.3 F above the min) with 2 4'x4' vents

With a higher house conductance, the vents make less difference, eg 73.3
vs 69.5 F at 1000 Btu/h-F. The vents above would move a 24-hour average
16.6x16sqrt(16(76.7-69.5)) = 2851 cfm, comparable to a whole-house fan.
With humidity sensing and motorized dampers, they could help heat a house.

Nick




Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

"Bughunter" wrote in message
news:FHOSd.68090$g16.10043@trndny08...
I don't live in Philadelphia. What should I do?


The people of Philly will be happy to send you some of their hot and humid
summer air. Just pay the postage.

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:40:37 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Bughunter" wrote in message
news:FHOSd.68090$g16.10043@trndny08...
I don't live in Philadelphia. What should I do?


The people of Philly will be happy to send you some of their hot and humid
summer air. Just pay the postage.


Who do they ship with, Airborne ?




Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

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wrote in message
...
Phila has an average daily min and max of 67.2 and 86.1 F in July. Two A
ft^2
vents with one-way plastic film dampers and a 16 ft height difference and
a
DT (F) temp diff would allow 16.6Asqrt(16DT) cfm to flow at night, cooling
a house by cfmDT Btu/h. What would the average July temp be in a house
with
10K Btu/F of thermal capacitance and 200 Btu/h-F of conductance and no
internal
heat gain and 2 4'x4' vents with a 16' height difference, and no fan?

10 PI=4*ATN(1)
20 TH=76'initial house temp (F)
30 FOR D=1 TO 100'simulate 100 average July days
40 FOR H=0 TO 23 STEP .1
50 TA=(86.1+67.2)/2+(86.1-67.2)/2*SIN(2*PI*H/24)'outdoor temp (F)
60 IC=(TH-TA)*200'conductive loss (+) or gain (-)
70 IF THTA THEN IV=16.6*16*SQR(16)*(TH-TA)^1.5 ELSE IV=0'vent cooling
(Btu)
80 TH=TH-(IC+IV)/10000*.1'new house temp (F)
90 NEXT H
100 NEXT D
110 PRINT TH

75.96505 (close to the average daily temp) with no vent

69.50536 (2.3 F above the min) with 2 4'x4' vents

With a higher house conductance, the vents make less difference, eg 73.3
vs 69.5 F at 1000 Btu/h-F. The vents above would move a 24-hour average
16.6x16sqrt(16(76.7-69.5)) = 2851 cfm, comparable to a whole-house fan.
With humidity sensing and motorized dampers, they could help heat a house.

Nick

Don't use a humidifier. Those things are too expensive to run.

wrote in message
...
Phila has an average daily min and max of 67.2 and 86.1 F in July. Two A
ft^2
vents with one-way plastic film dampers and a 16 ft height difference and
a
DT (F) temp diff would allow 16.6Asqrt(16DT) cfm to flow at night, cooling
a house by cfmDT Btu/h. What would the average July temp be in a house
with
10K Btu/F of thermal capacitance and 200 Btu/h-F of conductance and no
internal
heat gain and 2 4'x4' vents with a 16' height difference, and no fan?

snip calcs

The solution for the Philadelphia climate is big-ass Trane or Carrier.

Robert Morein wrote:

snip calcs

The solution for the Philadelphia climate is big-ass Trane or Carrier.


We lived there in the summer of 1943 and I can still remember how hot
it was (humidity didn't mean anything to a 6 1/2 year old boy), but now
I am sure that is why. Moved there from the cold and windy lake shore
in Buffalo, and I can remember that that also. Moved from Philly to
Indianapolis Ind. which has typical midwestern climate and eventually
relocated to Southern Calif. which I thought as a kid, that I had gone
to heaven, because I could bike the 3.5 mi. to the beach.

Now I live in a place that really gets hot in the summer (last year I
measured 93 days with a peak over 95 deg.), but the humidity rarely is
over 25% unless it is winter, (rains or foggy for 3 months with temps
below 50). This last fall was 3 days long. It went from a 94 deg
Tuesday to a 46 degree Friday in mid Oct. and today it got back to 63
for the 1st time this year.

Air conditioning is a major requirement and expense, especially
considering we have the highest power rates in the US. Mine varies
from a wintertime low of $0.08966 (minimum Off peak use) to a high of
$0.17941 (maximum On peak use)
to a summertime low of $0.08664 (minimum Off peak use) to a high of
$0.38347 (maximum On peak use).

These rates are for 1kWh of power. On peak use is power consumed on
weekdays between noon and 6 PM. Where you fit on the 5 steps between
the minimum and maximum rate applied depends on how much power you use
in excess of the power companies arbitrary and theoretical residential
baseline that they have established for the climatological area that you
live in.

It does not take into account the number of people living in the
residence, or the size of the residence. It does make an allowance if a
resident requires some durable medical equipment that runs on
electricity (iron lungs, oxygen concentrators, you get the idea....) and
this is NOT a discount, it just raises the amount of electricity you can
use at each step between the minimum and maximum rate.

If you think it sounds complex, it is and they don't always understand
it either, it took me about 3 months to get a spreadsheet put together
that will actually pre-calculate my bill correctly. I don't trust the
utility, I have actually found a few discrepancies that the utility
later corrected or modified their CPUC rate filings to conform with, so
the filings said what was needed, in order to reflect the utilities
actual practices.

In the course of this I discovered a whole house fan saved me over $170
a year. I run mine whenever the outside air is cooler than the air
conditioner cooling set point by 3 to 5 degrees. I have found by
experience if there is not this differential, the fan is needed longer.
Also, my fan is a 2 speed unit and if the daytime maximum did NOT exceed
95 deg. the low speed fan will pull enough air to cool the house, but
the high speed will be needed if the daytime DID exceed 95. Fortunately
the nighttime temperature in Fresno will almost always drop below 75 (it
didn't 2 nights in 2004, and 1 in 2003), and you can start the fan
before 1 AM usually and run it until it starts to get hot or the
outside temperature gets above your inside morning set point for the air
conditioner (I use 72).

A bit of a pain, But significant savings.

--
Jim Baber
Email


1350 W Mesa Ave.
Fresno CA, 93711
(559) 435-9068
(559) 905-2204 (A no charge Verizon IN cellphone to other Verizon IN accounts)
See our 10kW grid tied solar system at "www.baber.org"

"J Baber" wrote in message ...


Now I live in a place that really gets hot in the summer (last year I measured 93 days with a peak over 95 deg.),
but the humidity rarely is over 25% unless it is winter, (rains or foggy for 3 months with temps below 50). This last fall was 3 days long. It went from a 94 deg Tuesday to a 46 degree Friday in mid Oct. and today it got back to 63 for the 1st time this year.

Air conditioning is a major requirement and expense, especially considering we have the highest power rates in the US.
Mine varies from a wintertime low of $0.08966 (minimum Off peak use) to a high of $0.17941 (maximum On peak use)
to a summertime low of $0.08664 (minimum Off peak use) to a high of $0.38347 (maximum On peak use).

Our solution is to shut off our central AC at night and run a high-quality bedroom unit. Of course, we only need to cool one bedroom.

Vaughn

"J Baber" wrote in message
In the course of this I discovered a whole house fan saved me over $170
a year. I run mine whenever the outside air is cooler than the air
conditioner cooling set point by 3 to 5 degrees.

That works well in an area of low humidity. I do it here in CT. When I
lived in Philly, the outside temperature did not go down all that much at
night and remained humid. Just 15 miles away there was a much more dramatic
differential as you did not have the big concrete and asphalt heat sinks of
the city.

I recall as kids in the pre AC days, we would sleep downstairs as it was
considerably cooler.

Abby Normal wrote:

What would be the dewpoint of this air you were ventilating with?

I think we can ignore humidity if ventilation is only used for cooling,
vs heating in shoulder seasons. Can the outdoor dewpoint Tod be greater
than the indoor wall temp Tw, if the outdoor dry bulb temp To is less than
the indoor dry bulb Ti and Ti is close to Tw? Tdo = To/(1-TolnRo/9621),
using a Clausius-Clapeyron approximation, with Tdo, To, and Ti in Rankine
degrees and the outdoor RH Ro expressed as a fraction.

To/(1-TolnRo/9621) Ti makes

To Ti - TiTolnRo/9621, or equivalently,

9621(To-Ti) - TiTolnRo.

This can't happen, since the left side is negative, since To Ti,
and the right side is positive, since 0 Ro 1.

QED.

Nick

The highest dewpoint to meet ASHRAE's definition of neutral air is 60F,
but the trend seems to be moving towards 57F as a max ventilation
dewpoint.

Ecpnomizers can pump humidity into buildings if they respond to
temperature alone.

Outdoor dewpoint being higher than indoor wall temp means you need to
control infiltration else you have condnesation inside wall cavities.

In summer exterior walls would be warmer than indoor drybulb

wrote:
Abby Normal wrote:

What would be the dewpoint of this air you were ventilating with?

I think we can ignore humidity if ventilation is only used for
cooling,
vs heating in shoulder seasons. Can the outdoor dewpoint Tod be
greater
than the indoor wall temp Tw, if the outdoor dry bulb temp To is less
than
the indoor dry bulb Ti and Ti is close to Tw? Tdo =
To/(1-TolnRo/9621),
using a Clausius-Clapeyron approximation, with Tdo, To, and Ti in
Rankine
degrees and the outdoor RH Ro expressed as a fraction.

To/(1-TolnRo/9621) Ti makes

To Ti - TiTolnRo/9621, or equivalently,

9621(To-Ti) - TiTolnRo.

This can't happen, since the left side is negative, since To Ti,
and the right side is positive, since 0 Ro 1.

QED.

Nick

Abby Normal wrote:

The highest dewpoint to meet ASHRAE's definition of neutral air is 60F,

Chinese peeled garlic costs $2 per pound.

In summer exterior walls would be warmer than indoor drybulb

And igloos would melt.

Nick

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Hash: SHA1

On 22 Feb 2005 14:18:40 -0800, "Abby Normal"
wrote:

Could be humidifying the home. Lots of latent storage in wood and
drywall.

Very good! But it's in the molding, you know.


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--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"J Baber" wrote in message


In the course of this I discovered a whole house fan saved me over $170
a year. I run mine whenever the outside air is cooler than the air
conditioner cooling set point by 3 to 5 degrees.



That works well in an area of low humidity. I do it here in CT. When I
lived in Philly, the outside temperature did not go down all that much at
night and remained humid. Just 15 miles away there was a much more dramatic
differential as you did not have the big concrete and asphalt heat sinks of
the city.

I recall as kids in the pre AC days, we would sleep downstairs as it was
considerably cooler.


So did I, upstairs was miserable unless you were in the tub. But I can
remember days when you you could not dry off because of the humidity.

My brother worked for a year in Bahrain. He has told of days, when if
you went outside, the moisture would condense out of the humid air onto
you just like onto a coke can.

Makes horrible sense, if your temperature is 98.6 and the air temp is
125 and the humidity is 98 to 99 %, some of that moisture is going to
condense out on the colder you. Must be what I remember happening in
that long ago upstairs bathroom in Indianapolis on very hot summer days.

--
Jim Baber
Email


1350 W Mesa Ave.
Fresno CA, 93711
(559) 435-9068
(559) 905-2204 (A no charge Verizon IN cellphone to other Verizon IN accounts)
See our 10kW grid tied solar system at "www.baber.org"