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#1
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Piggy-backing new 125v outlet on existing 250v outlet?
I'm installing a new washer and electric dryer in a the bathroom closet. The
closet used to hold an old washer/dryer combo unit which only required one 240V 14-30R outlet. The new dryer can use this 240V outlet ok, but I need a to install a new 120V outlet adjacent to this for the washer. Does the electrician have to run a new circuit back to the panel ($$$), or can he just pick up the 120V from one side of the existing 240V outlet? Thanks! --- John |
#2
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- John -
I'm installing a new washer and electric dryer in a the bathroom closet. The closet used to hold an old washer/dryer combo unit which only required one 240V 14-30R outlet. The new dryer can use this 240V outlet ok, but I need a to install a new 120V outlet adjacent to this for the washer. Does the electrician have to run a new circuit back to the panel ($$$), or can he just pick up the 120V from one side of the existing 240V outlet? Thanks! --- John - Nehmo - Take it from one side, and ignore the inevitable responses that don't agree with this. -- ********************* * Nehmo Sergheyev * ********************* |
#3
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"John" wrote in message ... I'm installing a new washer and electric dryer in a the bathroom closet. The closet used to hold an old washer/dryer combo unit which only required one 240V 14-30R outlet. The new dryer can use this 240V outlet ok, but I need a to install a new 120V outlet adjacent to this for the washer. Does the electrician have to run a new circuit back to the panel ($$$), or can he just pick up the 120V from one side of the existing 240V outlet? Thanks! --- John This is Turtle No not if you don't want to get the required electric equipment needed to branch off like this and most of the time it will cost as much as running new circuit to it. Now cost effective usely ends up with a new circuit there. TURTLE |
#4
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- TURTLE - No not if you don't want to get the required electric equipment needed to branch off like this and most of the time it will cost as much as running new circuit to it. Now cost effective usely ends up with a new circuit there. - Nehmo - What might the "required electric equipment" be? -- ********************* * Nehmo Sergheyev * ********************* |
#6
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Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:
- TURTLE - No not if you don't want to get the required electric equipment needed to branch off like this and most of the time it will cost as much as running new circuit to it. Now cost effective usely ends up with a new circuit there. - Nehmo - What might the "required electric equipment" be? A one-space fuse box, or safety switch with a breaker or fuse in it. The dryer is a 30A circuit, and the washer needs currect protection at 15A or 20A. Also, you probably need a GFCI for the washer. There are fuse holders for edison fuses that fit in a standard electrical box. I don't know if you could find one to fit one side of a double box and have a space for a Decora receptical (for the GFCI) with a matching cover plate. You also might end up tripping the breaker for the dryer with this arrangement if you run the washing machine while the dryer is running on a high-heat cycle. Bob |
#7
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- Nehmo -
What might the "required electric equipment" be? - zxcvbob - A one-space fuse box, or safety switch with a breaker or fuse in it. The dryer is a 30A circuit, and the washer needs currect protection at 15A or 20A. - Nehmo – Every appliance doesn't need its own circuit breaker or fuse. The washer can piggyback on one leg of the dryer circuit its breaker (yes, assuming it won't overload it, and it probably won't). - zxcvbob - Also, you probably need a GFCI for the washer. - Nehmo – If OP wants, he can use a GFCI receptacle for the washer, but it wouldn't be required by NEC. The outlet would be dedicated and not readily accessible. NEC 2002 "210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. FPN: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel on feeders. (A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. (1) Bathrooms (2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible. Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8). Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G). (3) Outdoors Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426. (4) Crawl spaces — at or below grade level (5) Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8). Exception No. 3: A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection. Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G). (6) Kitchens — where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces (7) Wet bar sinks — where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces and are located within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the wet bar sink. (8) Boathouses (B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, singlephase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1), (2), and (3) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel: (1) Bathrooms (2) Rooftops Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied from a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426. (3) Kitchens" A better forum for electrical questions is something like this: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...163318130.html -- ********************* * Nehmo Sergheyev * ********************* |
#8
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Thanks for all the responses, guys. My electrician won't do it if it
doesn't meet code, so I guess the 240V tap isn't an option. One last question, please -- Would it violate code to add the new 120V outlet for the washer to the existing 15A GFCI circuit in the bathroom? (As long as I don't plug in a hair dryer at the same time) The washer is rated for a 15A circuit with a max current of 12A and steady state of 8A. Anyway, thanks again. --- John "John" wrote in message ... I'm installing a new washer and electric dryer in a the bathroom closet. The closet used to hold an old washer/dryer combo unit which only required one 240V 14-30R outlet. The new dryer can use this 240V outlet ok, but I need a to install a new 120V outlet adjacent to this for the washer. Does the electrician have to run a new circuit back to the panel ($$$), or can he just pick up the 120V from one side of the existing 240V outlet? Thanks! --- John |
#9
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Q: "Would it violate code to add the new 120V outlet for the
washer to the existing 15A GFCI circuit in the bathroom? (As long as I don't plug in a hair dryer at the same time) " A: 2002 NEC, CH7, subpart (d) pp. 6, para. 2: It shall be allowed that anyone may connect whatever additional devices they wish to an existing GFCI circuit; provided that (a) the GFCI circuit is in a bathroom, and (b) the GFCI circuits is rated at 15 amperes. This shall be allowed only if a hairdryer is not plugged into the existing circuit. Looks like you are in luck. |
#10
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According to Nehmo Sergheyev :
- Nehmo - What might the "required electric equipment" be? - zxcvbob - A one-space fuse box, or safety switch with a breaker or fuse in it. The dryer is a 30A circuit, and the washer needs currect protection at 15A or 20A. - Nehmo – Every appliance doesn't need its own circuit breaker or fuse. The washer can piggyback on one leg of the dryer circuit its breaker (yes, assuming it won't overload it, and it probably won't). Actually, there is a decent chance that running the washer and dryer on the same circuit _will_ blow the breaker. Depends on how close the breaker limit the heating coil is. Secondly, there's a good chance that the circuit doesn't have a proper split ground/neutral, which in some cases can lead to serious hazard. Code-wise sharing the circuit like this is just plain wrong. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#11
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John wrote:
Thanks for all the responses, guys. My electrician won't do it if it doesn't meet code, so I guess the 240V tap isn't an option. One last question, please -- Would it violate code to add the new 120V outlet for the washer to the existing 15A GFCI circuit in the bathroom? (As long as I don't plug in a hair dryer at the same time) The washer is rated for a 15A circuit with a max current of 12A and steady state of 8A. Anyway, thanks again. --- John "John" wrote in message ... I'm installing a new washer and electric dryer in a the bathroom closet. The closet used to hold an old washer/dryer combo unit which only required one 240V 14-30R outlet. The new dryer can use this 240V outlet ok, but I need a to install a new 120V outlet adjacent to this for the washer. Does the electrician have to run a new circuit back to the panel ($$$), or can he just pick up the 120V from one side of the existing 240V outlet? Thanks! --- John Yes it would violate the US NEC. Both Laundry Circuits and bathroom basin receptacle outlets must have a separate circuit to supply them. The nature of the two uses is such that overloading is nearly inevitable. -- Tom H |
#12
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"Matt" wrote in message oups.com... Q: "Would it violate code to add the new 120V outlet for the washer to the existing 15A GFCI circuit in the bathroom? (As long as I don't plug in a hair dryer at the same time) " A: 2002 NEC, CH7, subpart (d) pp. 6, para. 2: It shall be allowed that anyone may connect whatever additional devices they wish to an existing GFCI circuit; provided that (a) the GFCI circuit is in a bathroom, and (b) the GFCI circuits is rated at 15 amperes. This shall be allowed only if a hairdryer is not plugged into the existing circuit. Looks like you are in luck. Thanks for the reference! LOL |
#13
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- Chris Lewis -
Actually, there is a decent chance that running the washer and dryer on the same circuit _will_ blow the breaker. Depends on how close the breaker limit the heating coil is. - Nehmo - OP is going to let his electrician handle it, so the question is now acdemic. But a combo unit was already on that circuit, and it didn't cause a problem. - Chris Lewis - Secondly, there's a good chance that the circuit doesn't have a proper split ground/neutral, which in some cases can lead to serious hazard. - Nehmo - If you use "good chance" to substitute for suplied info, you can get any conclusion you want. If you're curious if there's a ground, you have to ask. Otherwise you need to condition your response. Normally a NEMA#14-30R outlet http://www.generatorjoe.net/html/web...quailplug.html has both a ground and a neutral. - Chris Lewis - Code-wise sharing the circuit like this is just plain wrong. - Nehmo - Assuming your talking about NEC 2002, where in it does _it_ say a washer or dryer requires an individual branch circuit? Anyway, sure, it is ideally preferable to have an individual branch circuit for every major appliance. But OP cited "$$$", so economy takes priority. There's a big difference in cost here. -- ********************* * Nehmo Sergheyev * ********************* |
#15
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"Nehmo Sergheyev" wrote in message ... - Chris Lewis - Actually, there is a decent chance that running the washer and dryer on the same circuit _will_ blow the breaker. Depends on how close the breaker limit the heating coil is. - Nehmo - OP is going to let his electrician handle it, so the question is now acdemic. But a combo unit was already on that circuit, and it didn't cause a problem. This is Turtle. Look Nemo , You can hook all the wires together and just run everything on a 100 amp breaker and make it run but if you want to have it legal and leave NO chance to error. You will have to install the right equipment and the right circuit arrangement to leave no chance for error. If you add up these thing you get this. Electricity + It will work + and it didn't cause a problem + I guess it will Do = a Call to the Fire Department soon. TURTLE |
#16
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- Nehmo -
Assuming your talking about NEC 2002, where in it does _it_ say a washer or dryer requires an individual branch circuit? - HaHaHa - Right here, in the 1999 code, article 210-52 (f). - Nehmo - You might as well use the more recent issue. It's available: ed2k://|file|National%20Electrical%20Code%20Handbook%2020 02%20Edition.zi p|63039174|50FAB8DF7DA7A5112CF74961BB1F2848|h=LQ6A GFGEROOTVHJRIOUIQQAOHQ BEKIHC|/ I need 2005. - HaHaHa - "(f) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the laundry. Exception No. 1: In a dwelling unit that is an apartment or living area in a multifamily building where laundry facilities are provided on the premises that are available to all building occupants, a laundry receptacle shall not be required. Exception No. 2: In other than one-family dwellings where laundry facilities are not to be installed or permitted, a laundry receptacle shall not be required." And in article 210-11 (c) (2) "210-11. Branch Circuits Required Branch circuits for lighting and for appliances, including motor-operated appliances, shall be provided to supply the loads computed in accordance with Section 220-3. ***In addition, branch circuits shall be provided for specific loads not covered by Section 220-3 where required elsewhere in this Code and for dwelling unit loads as specified in (c).*** (c) Dwelling Units. (2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by Section 210-52(f). *** This circuit shall have no other outlets. *** - Nehmo - That's for the receptacle outlet in the laundry room, for an iron, press, or other piece of equipment perhaps; it's not the dedicated outlet(s) for the washer & dryer (and an electric dryer outlet is usually 240V anyway, not covered by this section). You will notice it's not required in multifamily dwellings where there _are_ laundry faculties provided. If this _sole_ outlet supplies the washer or dryer, how can it be absent there? - Nehmo - Anyway, sure, it is ideally preferable to have an individual branch circuit for every major appliance. But OP cited "$$$", so economy takes priority. - HaHaHa - Does it? Does economy take priority over the National Electrical code? Do the rules go out the window if someome simply claims they cannot afford it? - Nehmo - You and your accomplices are just following the common news:alt.home.repair practice of trying to make problems for people rather than trying to help them -advocating the most burdensome route. It goes along with crabbing at people. - Nehmo - There's a big difference in cost here. - HaHaHa - "those who consider price alone..." - Nehmo - I don't know how that quote ends, and I considered more than price. -- ********************* * Nehmo Sergheyev * ********************* |
#17
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Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:
.... .... ...not required in multifamily dwellings where there _are_ laundry faculties provided. If this _sole_ outlet supplies the washer or dryer, how can it be absent there? You're reading it wrong...it's saying in an apartment building where there are (a) communal facilites, or (b) the landlord has said, "tough, go to the corner laundromat", THEN (and only then) can you NOT have the dedicated outlet. |
#18
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Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:
- Nehmo - Assuming your talking about NEC 2002, where in it does _it_ say a washer or dryer requires an individual branch circuit? - HaHaHa - Right here, in the 1999 code, article 210-52 (f). - Nehmo - You might as well use the more recent issue. It's available: ed2k://|file|National%20Electrical%20Code%20Handbook%2020 02%20Edition.zi p|63039174|50FAB8DF7DA7A5112CF74961BB1F2848|h=LQ6A GFGEROOTVHJRIOUIQQAOHQ BEKIHC|/ I need 2005. - HaHaHa - "(f) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the laundry. Exception No. 1: In a dwelling unit that is an apartment or living area in a multifamily building where laundry facilities are provided on the premises that are available to all building occupants, a laundry receptacle shall not be required. Exception No. 2: In other than one-family dwellings where laundry facilities are not to be installed or permitted, a laundry receptacle shall not be required." And in article 210-11 (c) (2) "210-11. Branch Circuits Required Branch circuits for lighting and for appliances, including motor-operated appliances, shall be provided to supply the loads computed in accordance with Section 220-3. ***In addition, branch circuits shall be provided for specific loads not covered by Section 220-3 where required elsewhere in this Code and for dwelling unit loads as specified in (c).*** (c) Dwelling Units. (2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by Section 210-52(f). *** This circuit shall have no other outlets. *** - Nehmo - That's for the receptacle outlet in the laundry room, for an iron, press, or other piece of equipment perhaps; it's not the dedicated outlet(s) for the washer & dryer (and an electric dryer outlet is usually 240V anyway, not covered by this section). You will notice it's not required in multifamily dwellings where there _are_ laundry faculties provided. If this _sole_ outlet supplies the washer or dryer, how can it be absent there? - Nehmo - Anyway, sure, it is ideally preferable to have an individual branch circuit for every major appliance. But OP cited "$$$", so economy takes priority. - HaHaHa - Does it? Does economy take priority over the National Electrical code? Do the rules go out the window if someome simply claims they cannot afford it? - Nehmo - You and your accomplices are just following the common news:alt.home.repair practice of trying to make problems for people rather than trying to help them -advocating the most burdensome route. It goes along with crabbing at people. - Nehmo - There's a big difference in cost here. - HaHaHa - "those who consider price alone..." - Nehmo - I don't know how that quote ends, and I considered more than price. I don't recommend tapping the existing circuit to get the 120V for the washer, but I *might* do it myself if there was no more room in the breaker box for another circuit, or if it was ususually impossible to run the wires for a new laundry circuit. Adding a new circuit is usually not all that hard or expensive to do. If I was going to tap the dryer circuit to supply the washer, I would figure out which leg of the 240V circuit supplied the dryer's motor and timer, then I would take the hot wire from the other leg so it will be balanced better and less likely to trip the breaker. Then the washer needs a 15A or 20A fuse between the tap and the recepticle. It would look kind of goofy, and by the time you find and buy all the junction boxes and plug fuse holders (etc.) it will cost more than doing the job right in most cases. If you gerry-rig it like this and it works, it might not work if you replace the dryer someday and the dryer has the 120V stuff on its other circuit leg -- so you would have to remember that and reverse the black and red wires in the dryer outlet. It's not a good idea, but it could be done safely; but you won't find an electrician willing to do it because it's not very workmanlike and it would not meet the current electric code. Best regards, Bob |
#19
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According to Nehmo Sergheyev :
Anyway, sure, it is ideally preferable to have an individual branch circuit for every major appliance. But OP cited "$$$", so economy takes priority. There's a big difference in cost here. Electrically, it would probably (but not necessarily - see 4) work, but code takes precidence. Unless you're feeling lucky. How does this violate code? Let us count the ways: 1) Old-style 3-wire dryer circuits: have a combination ground and neutral. Running a 120V circuit (or indeed, ground on _anything_ other than a 3-wire stove or dryer) from a combined ground and neutral is a code no-no and potentially lethal - that's why 3-wire stove and dryer circuits are "old style" and are prohibited in new construction. [In fact, if you rework the circuit, code-wise you need to upgrade to 4wire. Might as well run a new 120V circuit instead of screwing with the 240V circuit.] 2) New-style 4-wire dryer circuits: simply tapping off a 120V circuit means that you have what's tantamount to a 15A or 20A 120V circuit breakered at 30A. Code no-no. Secondly, this is being used as a "multi-wire" branch circuit. Code prohibits mixtures of 240V and 120V devices on the same multi-wire branch (the dryer is treated as a single device obviously). Thus, regardless of 3 or 4 wire, it still violates code, so asking which it is is irrelevant. 3) To be legal circuit-breakering/"mixture of 240V and 120V"-wise on a 4-wire circuit, you'd have to put in a breaker for the 120V tap, and treat the circuit as a subfeed. Only legal if it's four wire. May _not_ be sufficient to avoid the "do not mix" provisions. See (4) too. By the time you buy the breaker, housing, and cut up the walls, it'll likely cost just as much if not more than running a new 120V feed or tapping off something else for the washer. 4) Modern separate dryer/washers are likely to draw considerably more power when operated simultaneously than a combo washer/dryer (even a stacked) unit. Adding the washer to the dryer circuit is likely to break the 80% ampacity code rule, and perhaps even trip the breaker. Ie: 4800W dryer element plus a few amps @ 120V for the dryer motor, then add a largish washer motor on one of the 240V legs - especially if you didn't trace the appliance wiring and arranged the washer motor to be on the opposite leg from the dryer motor. Best case you only violate the 80% code rule. Good chance of tripping the breaker. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#20
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According to TURTLE :
This is Turtle. Look Nemo , You can hook all the wires together and just run everything on a 100 amp breaker and make it run but if you want to have it legal and leave NO chance to error. You will have to install the right equipment and the right circuit arrangement to leave no chance for error. If you add up these thing you get this. Electricity + It will work + and it didn't cause a problem + I guess it will Do = a Call to the Fire Department soon. Breakers are for wimps. So is wire insulation. Just run everything using bare steel fence wire off the pole transformer. If anything overloads, the wire will glow telling you what lightbulb you have to turn off. [That's a joke! ;-)] -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#21
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Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Nehmo Sergheyev : Anyway, sure, it is ideally preferable to have an individual branch circuit for every major appliance. But OP cited "$$$", so economy takes priority. There's a big difference in cost here. Electrically, it would probably (but not necessarily - see 4) work, but code takes precidence. Unless you're feeling lucky. How does this violate code? Let us count the ways: 1) Old-style 3-wire dryer circuits: have a combination ground and neutral. Running a 120V circuit (or indeed, ground on _anything_ other than a 3-wire stove or dryer) from a combined ground and neutral is a code no-no and potentially lethal - that's why 3-wire stove and dryer circuits are "old style" and are prohibited in new construction. [In fact, if you rework the circuit, code-wise you need to upgrade to 4wire. Might as well run a new 120V circuit instead of screwing with the 240V circuit.] 2) New-style 4-wire dryer circuits: simply tapping off a 120V circuit means that you have what's tantamount to a 15A or 20A 120V circuit breakered at 30A. Code no-no. Secondly, this is being used as a "multi-wire" branch circuit. Code prohibits mixtures of 240V and 120V devices on the same multi-wire branch (the dryer is treated as a single device obviously). Thus, regardless of 3 or 4 wire, it still violates code, so asking which it is is irrelevant. 3) To be legal circuit-breakering/"mixture of 240V and 120V"-wise on a 4-wire circuit, you'd have to put in a breaker for the 120V tap, and treat the circuit as a subfeed. Only legal if it's four wire. May _not_ be sufficient to avoid the "do not mix" provisions. See (4) too. By the time you buy the breaker, housing, and cut up the walls, it'll likely cost just as much if not more than running a new 120V feed or tapping off something else for the washer. 4) Modern separate dryer/washers are likely to draw considerably more power when operated simultaneously than a combo washer/dryer (even a stacked) unit. Adding the washer to the dryer circuit is likely to break the 80% ampacity code rule, and perhaps even trip the breaker. Ie: 4800W dryer element plus a few amps @ 120V for the dryer motor, then add a largish washer motor on one of the 240V legs - especially if you didn't trace the appliance wiring and arranged the washer motor to be on the opposite leg from the dryer motor. Best case you only violate the 80% code rule. Good chance of tripping the breaker. He did say in the original message that it was a 4-wire circuit (it was a subtle reference; he said "14-30R") Best regards, Bob |
#22
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According to zxcvbob :
He did say in the original message that it was a 4-wire circuit (it was a subtle reference; he said "14-30R") Despite having written the electrical wiring FAQ, I don't keep the plug/receptacle specs in my head. Sigh. Oops ;-) Still bad of course ;-) -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#23
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- zafdor -
Right, and ignore anybody that says this does'nt meet code either... - Nehmo - We are not automatons, and in real life, it's not desirable nor necessary to always adhere to the NEC. In any case, someone claiming something is in violation of some code or law, should cite the code or law. -- ******************** * Nehmo Sergheyev * ********************* |
#24
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"Chris Lewis" wrote in message ... According to TURTLE : This is Turtle. Look Nemo , You can hook all the wires together and just run everything on a 100 amp breaker and make it run but if you want to have it legal and leave NO chance to error. You will have to install the right equipment and the right circuit arrangement to leave no chance for error. If you add up these thing you get this. Electricity + It will work + and it didn't cause a problem + I guess it will Do = a Call to the Fire Department soon. Breakers are for wimps. So is wire insulation. Just run everything using bare steel fence wire off the pole transformer. If anything overloads, the wire will glow telling you what lightbulb you have to turn off. [That's a joke! ;-)] -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. This is Turtle. You don't need to look for the Red wire when over loaded. All you need to do is pile some paper on the wires and it will give you a signal fire to tell there is a problem. Red wire are hard to see in attic but a signal fire will be seen real good. TURTLE |
#25
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According to TURTLE :
"Chris Lewis" wrote in message ... Breakers are for wimps. So is wire insulation. Just run everything using bare steel fence wire off the pole transformer. If anything overloads, the wire will glow telling you what lightbulb you have to turn off. This is Turtle. You don't need to look for the Red wire when over loaded. All you need to do is pile some paper on the wires and it will give you a signal fire to tell there is a problem. Red wire are hard to see in attic but a signal fire will be seen real good. Even better, wrap the wires around your finger. You'll find out about overloads even faster than with signal fires. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#26
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Chris Lewis wrote:
According to TURTLE : "Chris Lewis" wrote in message ... Breakers are for wimps. So is wire insulation. Just run everything using bare steel fence wire off the pole transformer. If anything overloads, the wire will glow telling you what lightbulb you have to turn off. This is Turtle. You don't need to look for the Red wire when over loaded. All you need to do is pile some paper on the wires and it will give you a signal fire to tell there is a problem. Red wire are hard to see in attic but a signal fire will be seen real good. Even better, wrap the wires around your finger. You'll find out about overloads even faster than with signal fires. I usually just touch my tongue to the wire see if it's hot. HTH :-) Bob |
#27
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I have read this thread with interest since I am facing a similar situation. The wiring in my cement-walled older home was run inside the walls when they were poured, making adding new wiring very difficult. I have just remodeled a bedroom suite and replaced a pullman-style one-piece stove/sink/fridge metal unit with new cabinets and a drop-in cooktop, new frdge, etc. The problem is that there is only a 240v 3 wire outlet on that wall. This outlet is what powered the old unit, which also had 120v outlets on it that were powered by this outlet. I need a 120v outlet to power the new fridge and it appears that the only reasonable option is to tap off one of the hot legs. All three outlet wires are insulated and all the ground and neutral wires in my house are attached to the same bus bar in the distribution panel. The outlet is powered by a 30 amp breaker. While I understand that the codes exist for a reason, I also know that most older homes do not meet current codes. And don't most stoves and ovens have 120v loads supplied by their 240v breaker? What exactly is the risk of my plan? There must be some level of acceptable risk of non-compliance or most of the older homes in the US would be uninhabital due to code non-compliance. -- JimE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ JimE's Profile: http://www.homeplot.com/member.php?userid=52 View this thread: http://www.homeplot.com/showthread.php?t=31759 |
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According to JimE :
I have read this thread with interest since I am facing a similar situation. The wiring in my cement-walled older home was run inside the walls when they were poured, making adding new wiring very difficult. I have just remodeled a bedroom suite and replaced a pullman-style one-piece stove/sink/fridge metal unit with new cabinets and a drop-in cooktop, new frdge, etc. The problem is that there is only a 240v 3 wire outlet on that wall. This outlet is what powered the old unit, which also had 120v outlets on it that were powered by this outlet. I need a 120v outlet to power the new fridge and it appears that the only reasonable option is to tap off one of the hot legs. All three outlet wires are insulated and all the ground and neutral wires in my house are attached to the same bus bar in the distribution panel. The outlet is powered by a 30 amp breaker. While I understand that the codes exist for a reason, I also know that most older homes do not meet current codes. And don't most stoves and ovens have 120v loads supplied by their 240v breaker? What exactly is the risk of my plan? There must be some level of acceptable risk of non-compliance or most of the older homes in the US would be uninhabital due to code non-compliance. The main difficulties people encounter switching 240V outlets over to 120V is that the result isn't breakered properly and/or has no ground. Or they try to mix 240V and 120V devices on the same circuit. Yes, stoves and dryers are such, but they're single devices, not multiple. There's a reason why stoves and dryers are supposed to be the _only_ things on their circuits. You say that you have a 240V 3 wire receptacle in the wall with other 120V outlets attached to it. This is illegal for at least three reasons: 1) The 120V outlets cannot have proper grounds. Ground != neutral, potentially quite dangerous. 2) The 120V outlets are inherently breakered at 30A - highly dangerous. 3) Mixture of different voltages for seperate devices. The closest you can get to "right", without pulling new wire, is to rearrange the wiring in the panel so that it's a single 120V circuit on a 15A or 20A breaker (with oversize wire, but that's okay). Which ends up needing to use an insulated wire as ground - you have to use the white as neutral - so that means you'll have to use a black or red as ground. Code-wise that's illegal, but an inspector may permit it if you have no other reasonable alternative. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
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JimE wrote:
...The problem is that there is only a 240v 3 wire outlet on that wall. This outlet is what powered the old unit, which also had 120v outlets on it that were powered by this outlet. Note the words "on it." I suppose it would be legal to plug a fridge into one of those outlets, if you didn't remove the old unit. If you removed the front door of the old oven, would it still be legal to plug the fridge into one of the 120 V outlets? Probably so. And if you removed the range top? Probably so. And if you removed the racks in the oven? Probably so. And if you removed everything else you could unbolt or cut off, leaving only the outlets, dangling by wires...? :-) I need a 120v outlet to power the new fridge and it appears that the only reasonable option is to tap off one of the hot legs... Essentially duplicating what was on the old unit, with no change in the existing level of safety. I wonder if there's some way to improve the level of safety with something like a gfi, with no new wiring... Nick |
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If you care to check, the outlet(s) on the old stove had their own 15 amp
fuses in the stoves fuse panel to protect the wiring and outlet, what you propose will not have such fuse protection. "JimE" wrote in message ... I have read this thread with interest since I am facing a similar situation. The wiring in my cement-walled older home was run inside the walls when they were poured, making adding new wiring very difficult. I have just remodeled a bedroom suite and replaced a pullman-style one-piece stove/sink/fridge metal unit with new cabinets and a drop-in cooktop, new frdge, etc. The problem is that there is only a 240v 3 wire outlet on that wall. This outlet is what powered the old unit, which also had 120v outlets on it that were powered by this outlet. I need a 120v outlet to power the new fridge and it appears that the only reasonable option is to tap off one of the hot legs. All three outlet wires are insulated and all the ground and neutral wires in my house are attached to the same bus bar in the distribution panel. The outlet is powered by a 30 amp breaker. While I understand that the codes exist for a reason, I also know that most older homes do not meet current codes. And don't most stoves and ovens have 120v loads supplied by their 240v breaker? What exactly is the risk of my plan? There must be some level of acceptable risk of non-compliance or most of the older homes in the US would be uninhabital due to code non-compliance. -- JimE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ JimE's Profile: http://www.homeplot.com/member.php?userid=52 View this thread: http://www.homeplot.com/showthread.php?t=31759 |
#31
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There were a couple of fuses downstream of the junction box on the old pullman unit, so it seems likely that at least one was for the 120v outlets. I still need both 240v for the cooktop and 120v for the fridge. The outlet box is in a cabinet under the sink. Would it be better to install a one breaker mini-panel with a 15 amp breaker under the sink between the 240v outlet and the 120v outlets? I live in the US Virgin Islands and the standards are quite a bit lower than back in the states. I seriously doubt that an inspector will ever see this wiring and I suspect they would not have a problem with it if they did. -- JimE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ JimE's Profile: http://www.homeplot.com/member.php?userid=52 View this thread: http://www.homeplot.com/showthread.php?t=31759 |
#32
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On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:28:20 -0400, JimE
wrote: I have read this thread with interest since I am facing a similar situation. The wiring in my cement-walled older home was run inside the walls when they were poured, making adding new wiring very difficult. I have just remodeled a bedroom suite and replaced a pullman-style one-piece stove/sink/fridge metal unit with new cabinets and a drop-in cooktop, new frdge, etc. The problem is that there is only a 240v 3 wire outlet on that wall. This outlet is what powered the old unit, which also had 120v outlets on it that were powered by this outlet. I need a 120v outlet to power the new fridge and it appears that the only reasonable option is to tap off one of the hot legs. All three outlet wires are insulated and all the ground and neutral wires in my house are attached to the same bus bar in the distribution panel. The outlet is powered by a 30 amp breaker. While I understand that the codes exist for a reason, I also know that most older homes do not meet current codes. And don't most stoves and ovens have 120v loads supplied by their 240v breaker? What exactly is the risk of my plan? There must be some level of acceptable risk of non-compliance or most of the older homes in the US would be uninhabital due to code non-compliance. == warning non-expert rambling == Wouldn't the main concern be to protect the 120V outlet with a suitably-rated breaker? As another poster pointed out, the outlets in the range were presumably protected by 15A fuses or breakers. Any reason you can't replace the original dual breaker with two 15A singles? You could even break the link between the hots on the outlet, and feed each half of the duplex socket with a different circuit that way. Seems to me the result would be essentially equivalent to what they specify for kitchen outlets these days. Or just put in one 15A breaker and let the other leg be dead. If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will let me know. :-) -=s |
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