A few weeks ago I posted about a problem with bubbles and soap going
into a tiolet when the washing machine runs. I tried snaking it every
which way, etc.

I had read about suds zones which gave me an idea. I switched back to
Arm-n-Hammer detergent (instead of Tide) and the problem is
non-existent.

Hope this helps someone (given this is common problem discussed in this
group.)

It's good to hear follow-up.
So many interesting problems seem to evaporate.

TB

wrote in message
ups.com...
A few weeks ago I posted about a problem with bubbles and soap going
into a tiolet when the washing machine runs. I tried snaking it every
which way, etc.

I had read about suds zones which gave me an idea. I switched back to
Arm-n-Hammer detergent (instead of Tide) and the problem is
non-existent.

Hope this helps someone (given this is common problem discussed in this
group.)


The problem is not your soap. Your sewer venting is a problem. There
should be no effect on the toilet from a washing machine discharge.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

No the sewer venting is not a problem. Please read up on this type of
problem before posting your opinion as fact. Try reading up on a "suds
control zone."

Excessive suds cause exactly this problem. Sorry dude.

Yeah you might be right! The toilet is draining uphill into the
washing machine! Thanks for your awesome intellect. No go back to
your gameboy playing.

wrote in message
oups.com...
No the sewer venting is not a problem. Please read up on this type of
problem before posting your opinion as fact. Try reading up on a "suds
control zone."

Excessive suds cause exactly this problem. Sorry dude.


OK I did a little reading,

===========begin quote===========================
Code Questions
Question: We have noticed that some plumbing codes have suds zone
requirements while others do not. Which code is correct?

Julius replies: The plumbing code with the suds zone has the older code
requirements. The plumbing codes that have more recently evaluated the suds
zone requirements have eliminated the code section. Hence, suds zones are
not effective.

There have been a lot of studies done on sudsing in a drainage stack in tall
buildings. Suds are caused by a combination of turbulent action, air and
high sudsing detergents. If you eliminate one, you have eliminated the
development of suds in the stack. If you study the design layout recommended
for a suds pressure zone, the layout does nothing to eliminate any of these
three items.

The suds zone concept was based on delaying the suds entering the drainage
stack. There was nothing in the suds zone to eliminate sudsing. Once the
suds zone filled with suds, the suds then entered the drainage stack.

The current theory of suds prevention is the use of low sudsing detergents
and smooth pattern fittings. One of the problems, however, is we have no
control over the types of detergents sold on the retail level. Hence, the
sizing of the drainage stack and the proper use of fittings is very
important.

Another means of reducing the creation of suds is by having a drainage stack
discharge into a larger diameter building drain. In other words, a 3-inch
stack discharging into a 4-inch building drain.

===========end quote====================

Seems to me it might be more accurate to state that since the plumbing is
flawed (my point) using a low sudsing detergent is necessary (your point).

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

The point is: My plumbing is not "flawed," it was done per code when
it was built. This suds problem occurred recently. While I thought
the problem was a drain or vent blockage - it turns out that we
recently switched to "Tide with fabric softner" about the time this
problem started happening.

So I have two choices, rip up everthing including the concrete floor
and replumb the drain waste lines -or- change detergents and have no
problems.

A no brainer if you ask me.

The purpose of my original post was to inform people that they should
try different soaps when trying to diagnose this problem. This is a
problem that comes up freuqntly on this board - and the answer is
always "your vent is clogged, a bird or animal probably died in it."

wrote in news:1103313396.606198.76060
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

It's good to hear follow-up.
So many interesting problems seem to evaporate.

Which could be a good thing if it's a water problem. g


--
Wayne in Phoenix

*If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it.
*A mind is a terrible thing to lose.

wrote in message
oups.com...
The point is: My plumbing is not "flawed," it was done per code when
it was built.


I disagree. The reason I say this is that a few soap bubbles are causing
the drains in your home not to function as desired. While I may very well
have solved the issue the same way you did, the fact that problem came up is
indicative of a poorly designed waste system.

This suds problem occurred recently. While I thought
the problem was a drain or vent blockage - it turns out that we
recently switched to "Tide with fabric softner" about the time this
problem started happening.

So I have two choices, rip up everthing including the concrete floor
and replumb the drain waste lines -or- change detergents and have no
problems.

A no brainer if you ask me.

The purpose of my original post was to inform people that they should
try different soaps when trying to diagnose this problem. This is a
problem that comes up freuqntly on this board - and the answer is
always "your vent is clogged, a bird or animal probably died in it."


OK, so to an extent I agree with you. I will however point out that others
read this newsgroup to learn. Assume for instance that a person was going
to remodel and would be exposing the wall or otherwise had access to the
waste pipes that was convenient. Rather than allowing the condition to
exist the homeowner might consider adding better venting to allow the soap
bubbles to make their merry way into the sewer without making the trip via
their toilet.

Others might be building their dream house and might want to consider the
building code as only a minimum standard not an optimal one. For these
instances, they might very well consider your story when deciding that
taking a little more time to design the waste system or perhaps spring for a
few more feet of vent pipe.

I also think that if brand X soap does a better job of cleaning clothes than
brand Y, (I offer no opinion about the effectiveness of any particular
soap.) then that might also be a factor in consideration when faced with
soap in the toilet.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

I disagree. The reason I say this is that a few soap bubbles are causing
the drains in your home not to function as desired. While I may very well
have solved the issue the same way you did, the fact that problem came up
is
indicative of a poorly designed waste system.

Maybe someone was just really lazy and figured having the soap bubbles would
stop the need to clean the toilet?

: )

I hear what you are saying however, the person reading this group and
reads a post about "bubbles in a tiolet" is probably searching for a
similar problem and not "building their dream house."

In the case that someone was reading this to learn about improved
plumbing, what would they have learned? The only thing you offered is
that my system is "flawed" (without knowning anything about it) and to
"add a few more feet of vent pipe" which in my case would do absolutely
nothing.

wrote in message
ups.com...
I hear what you are saying however, the person reading this group and
reads a post about "bubbles in a tiolet" is probably searching for a
similar problem and not "building their dream house."

In the case that someone was reading this to learn about improved
plumbing, what would they have learned? The only thing you offered is
that my system is "flawed" (without knowning anything about it)


Here is what I know. When your washing machine discharges and you use a
particular kind of soap you get suds in your toilet.

I contend that this is not the fault of the soap, but the condition of your
plumbing. The way it is supposed to work is any liquid entering a drain is
suppoed to make the trip to the sewer without visiting your toilet first.




and to
"add a few more feet of vent pipe" which in my case would do absolutely
nothing.


Most folks do not have your problem. They use whatever kind of soap they
feel like and there toilet never knows. Your washing machine discharge is
not being carried to the street without stopping in your toilet first.

If you were to take a 50 foot piece of drain pipe and pitch it properly and
vent it properly, and then used the same soap and discharged your washing
machine into that pipe, would not all the suds flow right out the pipe?

In your case I also know that the discharge from your washing machine is
overcoming the weight of the water in your toilet trap and allowing a
reverse flow. It is not supposed to do that. If a little suds is doing
that that is definitely systematic of a problem with the plumbing.

Since you claim to have snaked all the lines, and found them to be clear,
This still leaves you with the problem. If it not the design and condition
of your waste system, then why do millions of housewives use the same kind
of soap and not have it back up into their toilet?


--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

Again, "adding a few more feet of vent pipe" will do absolutely
nothing.

Sudsing at the base of a stack "is" a common problem - check this
newsgroup.

My 4" drain has perfect pitch, is not colapsed, etc. What happens is
that the soap/water hits the base of the stack (right where the tiolet
is.) There are enough suds (not a "little" as you claim) to
effectively stop proper venting.

One way to fix this could possibly be to have the washing machine
discharge further down the line or move the tiolet further away
perpendicular from the main waste line or slow the discharge rate of
the washing machine.

The house was built in 1968 and was all done to code period. I've
lived there for over 10 years and have never had a problem. I don't
think that Tide with fabric softner existed in 1968 and being that it
is the only type that causes this problem I don't necessarily fault the
plumbing.

Right, and you know "what" about plumbing? Based on your apparent
level of education you must live in one of those "moral" red states.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Again, "adding a few more feet of vent pipe" will do absolutely
nothing.

Sudsing at the base of a stack "is" a common problem - check this
newsgroup.

My 4" drain has perfect pitch, is not colapsed, etc. What happens is
that the soap/water hits the base of the stack (right where the tiolet
is.) There are enough suds (not a "little" as you claim) to
effectively stop proper venting.

I understand, we seem to be saying close to the same thing but using
different words. As I understand the physics of waste water plumbing, vents
are used so pressure or vacuum is not created in the pipes so that the water
flows freely to the sewer by the force of gravity.

The way your system is designed, there is pressure created when your washing
machine discharges sudsy water. This pressure does not have an escape route
via a vent so the pressure vents through your toilet trap. If a vent had
been installed at this point, the pressure of the sudsy water would have an
escape route via the vent pipe and not blow by your tiolet trap. This is
the few feet of vent pipe I was refering to.

Your suds are creating a temporary seal preventing the usual back flow of
air that is displaced by the water flowing through the pipe.




One way to fix this could possibly be to have the washing machine
discharge further down the line or move the tiolet further away
perpendicular from the main waste line or slow the discharge rate of
the washing machine.

The house was built in 1968 and was all done to code period.

Like I said before the code is a minimal standard, not the optimal standard.
The longer your sewage stays in your pipe, the more that sticks and creates
a build up.

I do not advocate ripping your house apart to install another vent just to
solve your problem with suds in your toilet bowl. I said before your
solution of changing soap might be the solution I chose to use. another
approach might be to use a reduced amount of soap. The softening action of
the Tide brand might be more effective in allowing the surfactants to
release the soil from your laundry.


I've
lived there for over 10 years and have never had a problem. I don't
think that Tide with fabric softner existed in 1968 and being that it
is the only type that causes this problem I don't necessarily fault the
plumbing.


Aint life grand? Just as the difference in life's experiences assist
justice and curb governmental abuses by having the jury system, so does the
internet facilitate the sharing of experiences and opinions.

Perhaps some folks installing a new waste system or working an existing one
might someday remember this thread and choose to buy a little bigger pipe or
perhaps attempt to save a few bucks and just try and live within the margins
of design they have set themselves.

In either case they will have a foundation for making an informed decision
or at least know what questions to ask.


--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.