I have recently experienced well based water supply where the pressure in my
pressure tank drops to zero and eventually repressurizes. The entire
assembly is just over two years old. It uses a submerisble pump (sorry, no
make and model info) with a 20 gallon bladder pressure tank. The well is
380' and had (at drilling) a 7 gpm flow, and we've been getting a fair bit
of wet weather over the past 2 years, so I'm assuming that I haven't run the
well dry. I've recently adjusted the cut in/cut out in order to get some
additional pressure in the second story (though the adjustments weren't too
significant, from 45-72psi to 50-74 psi). There is approx 38 psi above the
bladder. This problem started approx. 2 weeks after making that change.

What I've seen from my trouble shooting. The pressure switch seems to be
working correctly and there is power to the switch. While watching the
pressure gauge, I see a spike approx. once per minute as the ?pump? tries to
kick on. Eventually it catches (not sure if that's the right term), I can
hear the water flowing and the pressure rises to the normal cut off and the
pump cuts out. I can then run the water, decreasing the pressure in the
tank and watch the pressure swithc cut over at the cut in pressure... though
the pump doesn't necessarily cut in.

Some other data points... from a zero pressure, I've seen the pump catch,
and then cut off about a second after, but most of the time, it just kicks
up the pressure (to approx. 40 psi) and then stops... this probably takes
1/2 second.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Jeff

Are you actually seeing the pressure switch trip at the right time? If not
I would pull off the pressure switch and clean the pipe it connects to.
Gunk in the pipe may prevent the switch from feeling pressure drop even
though a guage next to it on another pipe sees the drop..



"Jeff" wrote in message
...
I have recently experienced well based water supply where the pressure in
my
pressure tank drops to zero and eventually repressurizes. The entire
assembly is just over two years old. It uses a submerisble pump (sorry,
no
make and model info) with a 20 gallon bladder pressure tank. The well is
380' and had (at drilling) a 7 gpm flow, and we've been getting a fair bit
of wet weather over the past 2 years, so I'm assuming that I haven't run
the
well dry. I've recently adjusted the cut in/cut out in order to get some
additional pressure in the second story (though the adjustments weren't
too
significant, from 45-72psi to 50-74 psi). There is approx 38 psi above
the
bladder. This problem started approx. 2 weeks after making that change.

What I've seen from my trouble shooting. The pressure switch seems to be
working correctly and there is power to the switch. While watching the
pressure gauge, I see a spike approx. once per minute as the ?pump? tries
to
kick on. Eventually it catches (not sure if that's the right term), I can
hear the water flowing and the pressure rises to the normal cut off and
the
pump cuts out. I can then run the water, decreasing the pressure in the
tank and watch the pressure swithc cut over at the cut in pressure...
though
the pump doesn't necessarily cut in.

Some other data points... from a zero pressure, I've seen the pump catch,
and then cut off about a second after, but most of the time, it just kicks
up the pressure (to approx. 40 psi) and then stops... this probably takes
1/2 second.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Jeff

The pressure switch is tripping at the appropriate times (or at least
consistent with the gage), it has settings for both cut in and cut out
pressure and I see the switch pop at the appropriate pressures. That said,
it is as if there is something else in the equation. I'm assuming the pump
is what pressurizes the tank... and even though the cut in is activated the
pump doesn't immediately activate. It seems the pump tries to cut on about
every minute. Most of the time, I see just an instaneous boost in pressure,
but every once in while it catches, I hear the water flowing and the
pressure tank pumps up to the cut off pressure (just over 70 psi). So I
have water periodically, as long as I don't use copious amounts at one time.

"Art" wrote in message
k.net...
Are you actually seeing the pressure switch trip at the right time? If
not
I would pull off the pressure switch and clean the pipe it connects to.
Gunk in the pipe may prevent the switch from feeling pressure drop even
though a guage next to it on another pipe sees the drop..



"Jeff" wrote in message
...
I have recently experienced well based water supply where the pressure in
my
pressure tank drops to zero and eventually repressurizes. The entire
assembly is just over two years old. It uses a submerisble pump (sorry,
no
make and model info) with a 20 gallon bladder pressure tank. The well
is
380' and had (at drilling) a 7 gpm flow, and we've been getting a fair
bit
of wet weather over the past 2 years, so I'm assuming that I haven't run
the
well dry. I've recently adjusted the cut in/cut out in order to get
some
additional pressure in the second story (though the adjustments weren't
too
significant, from 45-72psi to 50-74 psi). There is approx 38 psi above
the
bladder. This problem started approx. 2 weeks after making that change.

What I've seen from my trouble shooting. The pressure switch seems to
be
working correctly and there is power to the switch. While watching the
pressure gauge, I see a spike approx. once per minute as the ?pump?
tries
to
kick on. Eventually it catches (not sure if that's the right term), I
can
hear the water flowing and the pressure rises to the normal cut off and
the
pump cuts out. I can then run the water, decreasing the pressure in the
tank and watch the pressure swithc cut over at the cut in pressure...
though
the pump doesn't necessarily cut in.

Some other data points... from a zero pressure, I've seen the pump
catch,
and then cut off about a second after, but most of the time, it just
kicks
up the pressure (to approx. 40 psi) and then stops... this probably
takes
1/2 second.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Jeff

Jeff wrote:
The pressure switch is tripping at the appropriate times (or at least
consistent with the gage), it has settings for both cut in and cut out
pressure and I see the switch pop at the appropriate pressures. That said,
it is as if there is something else in the equation. I'm assuming the pump
is what pressurizes the tank... and even though the cut in is activated the
pump doesn't immediately activate. It seems the pump tries to cut on about
every minute. Most of the time, I see just an instaneous boost in pressure,
but every once in while it catches, I hear the water flowing and the
pressure tank pumps up to the cut off pressure (just over 70 psi). So I
have water periodically, as long as I don't use copious amounts at one time.

SNIP replies

That is a *very* deep well and the pump has a lot of head pressure
to work against at startup. Sounds to me like the motor is having
trouble developing enough starting torque; thus the repeated start
attempts.

Try setting the pressure switch to a dramatically lower pressure,
like 20/40. If the pump now works normally, the pump performance
is marginal. (This is just an experiment to gather info.)

Is the pump too small? Wrong impeller config? Bad start capacitor?
Bad motor? I'm not enough of an expert to answer that...

Jim

Assuming the pressure gage is correct, the pump has had problems kicking in
a zero or near zero pressure. If I let the water continue to run (past the
low cut in) the pressure will drop to zero or near zero. Even at that
point, I see the pump attempt to kick in and fail. It will attempt to
start, kick up the pressure instantaneously to about 40 psi, and then
shutoff. One thing I did notice and I'm not certain if its just
coincidence, is when I have the pressure gage drop to zero, I've seen the
pump catch after letting water drain out to a trickle at the pump head. I
believe the first time I did this the pressure gage had been at zero for
some time (hours), so there may be some association, but I hesitate to build
a theory on 2 attempts. The result isn't instanaeous either, the second
time I drained the system, watched the pressure gage for about 10 minutes
with the pump not catching and then went to the well head to further release
pressure, I believe there was a 5-15 minute lag between my running the water
(barely a trickle) out of the pump head and the pump catching. I checked
the pressure shortly after releasing water at the pump head and the pressure
was still zero.

"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
...
Jeff wrote:
The pressure switch is tripping at the appropriate times (or at least
consistent with the gage), it has settings for both cut in and cut out
pressure and I see the switch pop at the appropriate pressures. That
said,
it is as if there is something else in the equation. I'm assuming the
pump
is what pressurizes the tank... and even though the cut in is activated
the
pump doesn't immediately activate. It seems the pump tries to cut on
about
every minute. Most of the time, I see just an instaneous boost in
pressure,
but every once in while it catches, I hear the water flowing and the
pressure tank pumps up to the cut off pressure (just over 70 psi). So I
have water periodically, as long as I don't use copious amounts at one
time.

SNIP replies

That is a *very* deep well and the pump has a lot of head pressure
to work against at startup. Sounds to me like the motor is having
trouble developing enough starting torque; thus the repeated start
attempts.

Try setting the pressure switch to a dramatically lower pressure,
like 20/40. If the pump now works normally, the pump performance
is marginal. (This is just an experiment to gather info.)

Is the pump too small? Wrong impeller config? Bad start capacitor?
Bad motor? I'm not enough of an expert to answer that...

Jim

It isn't the depth of the well but the height of the water in the well
that determines the head pressure. A 400 ft well with the pump at 350
ft can have 0 pressure to overcome if the static level is at 350 ft or
about 150 psi if static is at ground level. Neither would be realy
significant factors. I have no solution for the OP other than call a
pump man. I think his problem is going to be with the pump or its
wiring.

Harry K

Wonder if you were sold a lousy pump. My original Gould pump lasted 12
years. THe replacement was crap for the 3 years it held up.


"Jeff" wrote in message
...
I have recently experienced well based water supply where the pressure in
my
pressure tank drops to zero and eventually repressurizes. The entire
assembly is just over two years old. It uses a submerisble pump (sorry,
no
make and model info) with a 20 gallon bladder pressure tank. The well is
380' and had (at drilling) a 7 gpm flow, and we've been getting a fair bit
of wet weather over the past 2 years, so I'm assuming that I haven't run
the
well dry. I've recently adjusted the cut in/cut out in order to get some
additional pressure in the second story (though the adjustments weren't
too
significant, from 45-72psi to 50-74 psi). There is approx 38 psi above
the
bladder. This problem started approx. 2 weeks after making that change.

What I've seen from my trouble shooting. The pressure switch seems to be
working correctly and there is power to the switch. While watching the
pressure gauge, I see a spike approx. once per minute as the ?pump? tries
to
kick on. Eventually it catches (not sure if that's the right term), I can
hear the water flowing and the pressure rises to the normal cut off and
the
pump cuts out. I can then run the water, decreasing the pressure in the
tank and watch the pressure swithc cut over at the cut in pressure...
though
the pump doesn't necessarily cut in.

Some other data points... from a zero pressure, I've seen the pump catch,
and then cut off about a second after, but most of the time, it just kicks
up the pressure (to approx. 40 psi) and then stops... this probably takes
1/2 second.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Jeff

On 11 Dec 2004 20:16:48 -0800, Harry K wrote:

I have no solution for the OP other than call a
pump man. I think his problem is going to be with the pump or its
wiring.

I had a similar problem a few years back (IIRC was about 2 1/2 years after
well was drilled) and it turned out to be that the wire had been hitting the
side of the shaft and had worn the insulation through. The pump would work,
but not reliably , then one day it quit altogether. Don't recall the cost for
repair, but was not too bad IIRC. The repair used heat shrink covering over
crimp couplings to fix the insulation problem and a spacer attached around
the pipe and wire at that point to prevent further contact with the wall.

The explanation I got was that when the pump turns on, the torque causes the
pipe and wire to swing a bit. If there are any protrusions along the wall of
the shaft, they will wear the wire in two. I would think that the pipe could
possibly also be damaged, but the wire is more likely as it has a little
slack in it compared to the pipe.

Later, Mike
(substitute strickland in the obvious location to reply directly)
-----------------------------------


Please send all email as text only - HTML mail is automatically filtered to the trash and I might not catch it.

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:40:39 -0500, Speedy Jim wrote
(with possible editing):

Jeff wrote:
The pressure switch is tripping at the appropriate times (or at least
consistent with the gage), it has settings for both cut in and cut out
pressure and I see the switch pop at the appropriate pressures. That said,
it is as if there is something else in the equation. I'm assuming the pump
is what pressurizes the tank... and even though the cut in is activated the
pump doesn't immediately activate. It seems the pump tries to cut on about
every minute. Most of the time, I see just an instaneous boost in pressure,
but every once in while it catches, I hear the water flowing and the
pressure tank pumps up to the cut off pressure (just over 70 psi). So I
have water periodically, as long as I don't use copious amounts at one time.

SNIP replies

That is a *very* deep well and the pump has a lot of head pressure
to work against at startup. Sounds to me like the motor is having
trouble developing enough starting torque; thus the repeated start
attempts.

Actually, it isn't the depth of the well but the depth of the top of
the water level that determines the net pressure.

--
Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com

Pretty interesting... I can't think of anything that would disprove that
theory... Also, by increasing the pressure in the tank and reducing the
delta between cut out/cut in I would have exacerbated the problem. I looked
at the pump head and thought about disassembling it... but disassembly
(well, disassembly without breaking anything) doesn't appear overtly simple.
My pump head consists of 8"? round PVC, capped with a flat top, there is
also a 1" PVC with standard cap sticking out the top, four nuts positioned
symetrically around the top, the water feed (with faucet attached) comes
directly out of the center of the 8" cap and the electical conduit runs in
via a hole in the top. I loosened the 4 nuts, but this did not seem to free
up the top assembly... Possibly I have to dig down to get at the base, but
the unit appeared fairly solid when I tried to move it back in forth. Short
of disassembly, I'm not sure how else to test. I've placed the call into
the installers... arggg....

the suggestion I check the contacts... they look pretty good and once
the contact is made... it seems that the pump kicks on and off on its own...
though the contacts remain untouched - so I would assume that the pump has
power and and something else is causing the issue.


"Michael Strickland" wrote in message
.att.net...
On 11 Dec 2004 20:16:48 -0800, Harry K wrote:

I have no solution for the OP other than call a
pump man. I think his problem is going to be with the pump or its
wiring.

I had a similar problem a few years back (IIRC was about 2 1/2 years after
well was drilled) and it turned out to be that the wire had been hitting
the
side of the shaft and had worn the insulation through. The pump would
work,
but not reliably , then one day it quit altogether. Don't recall the cost
for
repair, but was not too bad IIRC. The repair used heat shrink covering
over
crimp couplings to fix the insulation problem and a spacer attached around
the pipe and wire at that point to prevent further contact with the wall.

The explanation I got was that when the pump turns on, the torque causes
the
pipe and wire to swing a bit. If there are any protrusions along the wall
of
the shaft, they will wear the wire in two. I would think that the pipe
could
possibly also be damaged, but the wire is more likely as it has a little
slack in it compared to the pipe.

Later, Mike
(substitute strickland in the obvious location to reply directly)
-----------------------------------


Please send all email as text only - HTML mail is automatically filtered
to the trash and I might not catch it.

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 12:44:01 -0500, Jeff wrote:

I looked
at the pump head and thought about disassembling it... but disassembly
(well, disassembly without breaking anything) doesn't appear overtly simple.

It's not overly complicated either. I watched carefully when the repair was
done on mine.

My pump head consists of 8"? round PVC, capped with a flat top, there is
also a 1" PVC with standard cap sticking out the top, four nuts positioned
symetrically around the top, the water feed (with faucet attached) comes
directly out of the center of the 8" cap and the electical conduit runs in

Sounds like mine, but mine is 6". Mine also has a 3/4 inch dia. vent which
screws into the cap a little way from the center. It's about 3" tall and has
tiny slits in it. A convenient place to pour the bleach when it was time to
sterilize the well for the county required E. coli test - they require it
after drilling potable water wells.

via a hole in the top. I loosened the 4 nuts, but this did not seem to free
up the top assembly... Possibly I have to dig down to get at the base, but

Nope, you're working against the weight of the pump and piping as it's all
supported by that top. Takes a bit of energy to get the top up and pull up
the piping and pump. Mine's 180' and is fairly heavy - you have to remember
that the pipe is full of water unless the foot valve is bad. The nuts
compress a rubber gasket to seal the top to the casing.

the unit appeared fairly solid when I tried to move it back in forth. Short
of disassembly, I'm not sure how else to test. I've placed the call into
the installers... arggg....

Probably the best bet anyway. If the insulation is worn, you need special
heat shrink coverings to seal the connection when it's fixed. You can
probably find these if you hunt around - never have tried. Also, you can
watch to see if you want to handle such problems (or possibly replace the
pump when it wears out) in the future. The procedure isn't too terribly
complicated, but requires more than one person and a certain amount of
strength.

The fella that drilled my well did the repair. He used an old auto wheel
attached so that it can spin to a homemade stand as a roller to pull the pipe
(pipe is black flexible poly) and wire over after he got the top up. The
setup had the pipe and wire coming straight up out of the hole, passing over
the top of the wheel and then horizontally across the yard. A specialized
setup, but it could be done by pulling hand over hand - imagine it would be a
lot more exercise though...

Someone has to be at the wellhead to work spacers around the wheel and to
pull the pump straight up when it gets to the top - the wheel wasn't high
enough off the ground for that, only about a foot or so. Another person has
to pull the top of the well out across the yard as the pump is raised. Thus a
requirement of at least 2 people - mebbe more for your situation due to the
probable length of the pipe.

Let me know how it comes out. I'm still learning about wells and repairs
myself (have made an attempt to learn all I could in the 7 years we've been
on a well), so I'd be interested in what the actual problem is and it's
solution. Could you please use the address below and email the solution to
me? My daughter is going to rebuild my computer for Christmas and I expect
that I'll be limited to email at work for at least the next couple of weeks
since she's gonna be doing the rebuild in her spare time. That being the
case, any posting here will probably be gone before I can get it. TIA.

Good luck.


Later, Mike
(substitute strickland in the obvious location to reply directly)
-----------------------------------


Please send all email as text only - HTML mail is automatically filtered to the trash and I might not catch it.

My last house was my first and only house with a well. ALso had a water
source heat pump so that well really got a work out. Every year the wire
would break and every year the well guy would come out a fix it for a fee
and we would have no heat or ac while waiting for him. When the pump
finally died and he replaced it with a crappy pump that was inadequate I got
a new well guy. First time the wire broke he built a 200 foot sleeve out of
PVC for the wire. No more wire breaking in that well. If your wire doesn't
have a PVC sleeve have one put in.

Art wrote:

My last house was my first and only house with a well. ALso had a water
source heat pump so that well really got a work out. Every year the wire
would break and every year the well guy would come out a fix it for a fee
and we would have no heat or ac while waiting for him. When the pump
finally died and he replaced it with a crappy pump that was inadequate I got
a new well guy. First time the wire broke he built a 200 foot sleeve out of
PVC for the wire. No more wire breaking in that well. If your wire doesn't
have a PVC sleeve have one put in.

Use snubbers and attach the wire to the pipe...won't be a problem.

Jeff wrote:

Drain the pressure tank and see that it is empty...part of the problem
may be your tank is becoming water-logged...happens it the
bladder/diaphragm develops a pinhole leak...

Second, check the current draw on the pump when it tries to start and
run...

Third, the tank pressure (empty) should be two pounds below the cut-in
pressure. If it's 20-40, say, the enmpty tank pressure should be 18.
If you need higher pressure than about 50, I'd recommend a pressure
booster rather than relying on the well pump unless it is really strong.