On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 02:09:07 -0600, wrote:

Is it legal according to the NEC to run a green wire of the same gauge
along side of the old romex that had no ground wire, and wire it to
the panel and outlet box? (I know local code might differ). I am
just asking because I want to move my computer and there is only 2
wire (no ground) romex going to that outlet. I would change the
romex, except that it's stapled inside the wall, and I am not tearing
open the wall. However, I think I can fish a #12 green wire up there.

I dont have the NEC book. Does anyone know?

Thanks

T-Pot

It used to be legal, isn't anymore. That said, I think I would do
that or at least run to a nearby metal water pipe in order to provide
protection to electronic equipment. I am a code inspector but I still
have a little room in my head for common sense!

Dan

If you can fish a green wire, why can't you fish a new romex? Pull a new
romex into the box and tape up the old one and push it to the back.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv



"Dan" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 02:09:07 -0600, wrote:

Is it legal according to the NEC to run a green wire of the same gauge
along side of the old romex that had no ground wire, and wire it to
the panel and outlet box? (I know local code might differ). I am
just asking because I want to move my computer and there is only 2
wire (no ground) romex going to that outlet. I would change the
romex, except that it's stapled inside the wall, and I am not tearing
open the wall. However, I think I can fish a #12 green wire up there.

I dont have the NEC book. Does anyone know?

Thanks

T-Pot

It used to be legal, isn't anymore. That said, I think I would do
that or at least run to a nearby metal water pipe in order to provide
protection to electronic equipment. I am a code inspector but I still
have a little room in my head for common sense!

Dan

"Dan" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 02:09:07 -0600, wrote:

Is it legal according to the NEC to run a green wire of the same gauge
along side of the old romex that had no ground wire, and wire it to
the panel and outlet box? (I know local code might differ). I am
just asking because I want to move my computer and there is only 2
wire (no ground) romex going to that outlet. I would change the
romex, except that it's stapled inside the wall, and I am not tearing
open the wall. However, I think I can fish a #12 green wire up there.

I dont have the NEC book. Does anyone know?

Thanks

T-Pot

It used to be legal, isn't anymore. That said, I think I would do
that or at least run to a nearby metal water pipe in order to provide
protection to electronic equipment. I am a code inspector but I still
have a little room in my head for common sense!

Dan

See this discussion:
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb...ML/003159.html

Bill

the old nm is probably stapled, and there's not room for another.

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...
If you can fish a green wire, why can't you fish a new romex? Pull a new
romex into the box and tape up the old one and push it to the back.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv



"Dan" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 02:09:07 -0600, wrote:

Is it legal according to the NEC to run a green wire of the same gauge
along side of the old romex that had no ground wire, and wire it to
the panel and outlet box? (I know local code might differ). I am
just asking because I want to move my computer and there is only 2
wire (no ground) romex going to that outlet. I would change the
romex, except that it's stapled inside the wall, and I am not tearing
open the wall. However, I think I can fish a #12 green wire up there.

I dont have the NEC book. Does anyone know?

Thanks

T-Pot

It used to be legal, isn't anymore. That said, I think I would do
that or at least run to a nearby metal water pipe in order to provide
protection to electronic equipment. I am a code inspector but I still
have a little room in my head for common sense!

Dan

The metal water pipe idea does not sound good. What if it is isolated?
I doubt if the OP is going to check that. Someone else or the OP may see
the ground wire and assume it is good and take a risk without knowing it.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math


"Dan" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 02:09:07 -0600, wrote:

Is it legal according to the NEC to run a green wire of the same gauge
along side of the old romex that had no ground wire, and wire it to
the panel and outlet box? (I know local code might differ). I am
just asking because I want to move my computer and there is only 2
wire (no ground) romex going to that outlet. I would change the
romex, except that it's stapled inside the wall, and I am not tearing
open the wall. However, I think I can fish a #12 green wire up there.

I dont have the NEC book. Does anyone know?

Thanks

T-Pot

It used to be legal, isn't anymore. That said, I think I would do
that or at least run to a nearby metal water pipe in order to provide
protection to electronic equipment. I am a code inspector but I still
have a little room in my head for common sense!

Dan

wrote:
Is it legal according to the NEC to run a green wire of the same gauge
along side of the old romex that had no ground wire, and wire it to
the panel and outlet box? (I know local code might differ). I am
just asking because I want to move my computer and there is only 2
wire (no ground) romex going to that outlet. I would change the
romex, except that it's stapled inside the wall, and I am not tearing
open the wall. However, I think I can fish a #12 green wire up there.

I dont have the NEC book. Does anyone know?

Thanks

T-Pot


It was legal last time I looked it up; others have said it's not legal
anymore.

Fish a green wire back to the main panel, and clamp the wire onto the
grounding electrode conductor that comes out of the panel. If an
Inspector gives you any crap about it, you can either lie and say the
ground wire was added back in 1995, or offer to disconnect it and
install an ungrounded receptical, leaving the box ungrounded (which is
legal but unsafe.)

Common sense has to prevail at least every once in a while.

Bob

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:24:41 -0600, wrote:

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:36:27 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

The metal water pipe idea does not sound good. What if it is isolated?
I doubt if the OP is going to check that. Someone else or the OP may see
the ground wire and assume it is good and take a risk without knowing it.

It is all galvanized pipe, right to the well tank. There is a ground
rod in the basement floor that goes to the breaker box, and there is a
thick wire (#8 or #6) from that same ground rod clamped to the galv.
pipe right by the tank. The pipe to the well is black plastic. so I
would say that without that wire there would not be a good plumbing
ground. However, if I get it from that outlet to the basement, I will
go right to the breaker panel, since it's no more than 15 ft away.

I tend to wonder why they would make it a law that this is not legal.
Electrically, it does the same thing as if the wire was part of the
romex..... ????? Like others said, "common sense".

I think it was because the grounds were often disconnected during
plumbing repairs, etc. and not reconnected. Codes are written by
committees reviewing suggestions from the field. If you've ever
served on a committee, you can understand how sometimes something gets
put in just so a member will shut up and let them move on to something
more important. As I said in an earlier post, I would install the
best ground I could to protect the electronic equipment.

Dan

Dan wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:24:41 -0600, wrote:


On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:36:27 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:


The metal water pipe idea does not sound good. What if it is isolated?
I doubt if the OP is going to check that. Someone else or the OP may see
the ground wire and assume it is good and take a risk without knowing it.

It is all galvanized pipe, right to the well tank. There is a ground
rod in the basement floor that goes to the breaker box, and there is a
thick wire (#8 or #6) from that same ground rod clamped to the galv.
pipe right by the tank. The pipe to the well is black plastic. so I
would say that without that wire there would not be a good plumbing
ground. However, if I get it from that outlet to the basement, I will
go right to the breaker panel, since it's no more than 15 ft away.

I tend to wonder why they would make it a law that this is not legal.
Electrically, it does the same thing as if the wire was part of the
romex..... ????? Like others said, "common sense".


I think it was because the grounds were often disconnected during
plumbing repairs, etc. and not reconnected. Codes are written by
committees reviewing suggestions from the field. If you've ever
served on a committee, you can understand how sometimes something gets
put in just so a member will shut up and let them move on to something
more important. As I said in an earlier post, I would install the
best ground I could to protect the electronic equipment.

Dan


There's more to it than that. If there an electrical leak to ground
through the pipe, it can electrocute an unsuspecting plumber when he
breaks the pipe apart someday.

Bob

wrote:
Is it legal according to the NEC to run a green wire of the same gauge
along side of the old romex that had no ground wire, and wire it to
the panel and outlet box? (I know local code might differ). I am
just asking because I want to move my computer and there is only 2
wire (no ground) romex going to that outlet. I would change the
romex, except that it's stapled inside the wall, and I am not tearing
open the wall. However, I think I can fish a #12 green wire up there.

I dont have the NEC book. Does anyone know?

Thanks

T-Pot

What you are proposing to do is fully compliant with the US NEC. viz.
"VII. Methods of Equipment Grounding
250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections.
Equipment grounding conductor connections at the source of separately
derived systems shall be made in accordance with 250.30(A)(1). Equipment
grounding conductor connections at service equipment shall be made as
indicated in 250.130(A) or (B). For replacement of non–grounding-type
receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit
extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment
grounding conductor in the branch circuit, connections shall be
permitted as indicated in 250.130(C).
(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions.
The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a
branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of
the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described
in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the
branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the
service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the
service equipment enclosure
FPN:See 406.3(D) for the use of a ground-fault circuit-interrupting type
of receptacle."
Copyright 2002 National Fire Protection Association.

--
Tom H

Both easier and safer to put tiny holes in selected walls;
to run a new wire to basement. One need not rip out whole
walls to install new wires. If you can't, a professional
electrician has a truck full of fancy tools and cute little
tricks to route that wire. Don't kludge the safety ground.
And do not connect any ground to water pipes - to dump
electricity into those pipes.

Safety grounding to water pipes is one of the worse
recommendations posted here. It puts plumbers at risk. It
puts bathing humans at even greater risk. It is using
something for what it was not intended. All electrical
connections to pipes to remove electricity from pipe. That
should be obvious because a wet human is at greatest risk to
electrocution. Never dump electricity into pipes.

Far easier than your posts suggest to run a clean, new 12
AWG wire.

Since we are on the topic, consider some other 'fixes' as
demonstrated in the newsgroup alt.home.repair entitled
"Grounding Rod Info" on 12 July 2003 at
http://tinyurl.com/hkjq

wrote:
That's exactly why, and what I said in my original post. If I chop
off the old one and cant get a new one in place, I am stuck ripping
walls apart. I DO NOT want to rip walls apart. If I cant get the
green wire up there, I am nowhere ahead or behind. There should be
room for one #12 green wire, or even a bare one. I figure that if I
cant get the ground wire to the basement, I could also run it outside
thru the siding, tack it along the bottom of the siding and have it
enter near alongside the phone wire, or outdoor spigot. Both are
nearby. I do think I can get it to the basement though.

W_Tom is the grounding man and this is right, code wise.


Subject: Adding a ground wire
From: w_tom
Date: 11/29/04 8:35 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Both easier and safer to put tiny holes in selected walls;
to run a new wire to basement. One need not rip out whole
walls to install new wires. If you can't, a professional
electrician has a truck full of fancy tools and cute little
tricks to route that wire. Don't kludge the safety ground.
And do not connect any ground to water pipes - to dump
electricity into those pipes.

Safety grounding to water pipes is one of the worse
recommendations posted here. It puts plumbers at risk. It
puts bathing humans at even greater risk. It is using
something for what it was not intended. All electrical
connections to pipes to remove electricity from pipe. That
should be obvious because a wet human is at greatest risk to
electrocution. Never dump electricity into pipes.

Far easier than your posts suggest to run a clean, new 12
AWG wire.

Since we are on the topic, consider some other 'fixes' as
demonstrated in the newsgroup alt.home.repair entitled
"Grounding Rod Info" on 12 July 2003 at
http://tinyurl.com/hkjq

wrote:
That's exactly why, and what I said in my original post. If I chop
off the old one and cant get a new one in place, I am stuck ripping
walls apart. I DO NOT want to rip walls apart. If I cant get the
green wire up there, I am nowhere ahead or behind. There should be
room for one #12 green wire, or even a bare one. I figure that if I
cant get the ground wire to the basement, I could also run it outside
thru the siding, tack it along the bottom of the siding and have it
enter near alongside the phone wire, or outdoor spigot. Both are
nearby. I do think I can get it to the basement though.

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 02:09:07 -0600, wrote:

Is it legal according to the NEC to run a green wire of the same gauge
along side of the old romex that had no ground wire, and wire it to
the panel and outlet box? (I know local code might differ). I am
just asking because I want to move my computer and there is only 2
wire (no ground) romex going to that outlet. I would change the
romex, except that it's stapled inside the wall, and I am not tearing
open the wall. However, I think I can fish a #12 green wire up there.

I dont have the NEC book. Does anyone know?

No longer allowed. Fishing new romex, even if you have to use an old
work box, is about the same effort.

Jeff

Jeff Cochran wrote:

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 02:09:07 -0600, wrote:


Is it legal according to the NEC to run a green wire of the same gauge
along side of the old romex that had no ground wire, and wire it to
the panel and outlet box? (I know local code might differ). I am
just asking because I want to move my computer and there is only 2
wire (no ground) romex going to that outlet. I would change the
romex, except that it's stapled inside the wall, and I am not tearing
open the wall. However, I think I can fish a #12 green wire up there.

I dont have the NEC book. Does anyone know?


No longer allowed. Fishing new romex, even if you have to use an old
work box, is about the same effort.

Jeff


Several people have said this, but I find it very hard to believe. (and
whether it is allowed or not, I would do it anyway) Can you site a
reference? Did they change it in 2002, or what?

Thanks, regards,
Bob

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:37:08 -0600, zxcvbob
wrote:

Jeff Cochran wrote:

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 02:09:07 -0600, wrote:


Is it legal according to the NEC to run a green wire of the same gauge
along side of the old romex that had no ground wire, and wire it to
the panel and outlet box? (I know local code might differ). I am
just asking because I want to move my computer and there is only 2
wire (no ground) romex going to that outlet. I would change the
romex, except that it's stapled inside the wall, and I am not tearing
open the wall. However, I think I can fish a #12 green wire up there.

I dont have the NEC book. Does anyone know?


No longer allowed. Fishing new romex, even if you have to use an old
work box, is about the same effort.

Jeff


Several people have said this, but I find it very hard to believe. (and
whether it is allowed or not, I would do it anyway) Can you site a
reference? Did they change it in 2002, or what?

Haven't got a code book here to cite, but it is current, don't know
the year for sure though. Locally the inspectors have frowned on this
for quite some time, but naturally it's still done without permits.
The preferred option is a GFCI outlet but that doesn't help for
equipment grounds, and while better than nothing it's still not a
ground.

Jeff

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:16:14 -0600, wrote:

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:53:03 GMT, "bill a"
wrote:

the old nm is probably stapled, and there's not room for another.

That's exactly why, and what I said in my original post. If I chop
off the old one and cant get a new one in place, I am stuck ripping
walls apart. I DO NOT want to rip walls apart. If I cant get the
green wire up there, I am nowhere ahead or behind. There should be
room for one #12 green wire, or even a bare one.

Can't do a bare wire ground anymore either.

Jeff

Do not take advice from people who don't have a code book.
You can run a single conductor if it is not subject to damage. Green,
green/yellow or bare.


250.130C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The
equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a
branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the
following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in
250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the
branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service
equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service
equipment enclosure
FPN:See 406.3(D) for the use of a ground-fault circuit-interrupting type of
receptacle.
Section 250.130(C) applies to both ungrounded and grounded systems. It permits
a nongrounding-type receptacle to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle
under the following conditions.
(1) The branch circuit does not contain an equipment ground.
(2) An existing branch circuit is being extended for additional receptacle
outlets.
(3) An equipment grounding conductor is connected between the receptacle
grounding terminal and any accessible point on the grounding electrode system.
Because of the requirements of 250.52(A)(1), an interior metal water pipe more
than 5 ft from the point of entrance of the water pipe into the building is no
longer allowed to serve as a connection to the grounding electrode conductor.

On 01 Dec 2004 05:00:06 GMT, (Greg) wrote:

Do not take advice from people who don't have a code book.
You can run a single conductor if it is not subject to damage. Green,
green/yellow or bare.


250.130C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The
equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a
branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the
following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in
250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the
branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service
equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service
equipment enclosure
FPN:See 406.3(D) for the use of a ground-fault circuit-interrupting type of
receptacle.
Section 250.130(C) applies to both ungrounded and grounded systems. It permits
a nongrounding-type receptacle to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle
under the following conditions.
(1) The branch circuit does not contain an equipment ground.
(2) An existing branch circuit is being extended for additional receptacle
outlets.
(3) An equipment grounding conductor is connected between the receptacle
grounding terminal and any accessible point on the grounding electrode system.
Because of the requirements of 250.52(A)(1), an interior metal water pipe more
than 5 ft from the point of entrance of the water pipe into the building is no
longer allowed to serve as a connection to the grounding electrode conductor.

This is made clear in the 2002 NEC Handbook, which the above quote
comes from. The NEC codebook does not contain the clarification
interpretation and accompanying illustration making the installation
clearly allowed under NEC 2002. I'll check the NEC 2005 today but
it's probably the same. I love these discussions, I learn something
once in a while.

Dan