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Dan
 
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On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:24:41 -0600, wrote:

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:36:27 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

The metal water pipe idea does not sound good. What if it is isolated?
I doubt if the OP is going to check that. Someone else or the OP may see
the ground wire and assume it is good and take a risk without knowing it.


It is all galvanized pipe, right to the well tank. There is a ground
rod in the basement floor that goes to the breaker box, and there is a
thick wire (#8 or #6) from that same ground rod clamped to the galv.
pipe right by the tank. The pipe to the well is black plastic. so I
would say that without that wire there would not be a good plumbing
ground. However, if I get it from that outlet to the basement, I will
go right to the breaker panel, since it's no more than 15 ft away.

I tend to wonder why they would make it a law that this is not legal.
Electrically, it does the same thing as if the wire was part of the
romex..... ????? Like others said, "common sense".


I think it was because the grounds were often disconnected during
plumbing repairs, etc. and not reconnected. Codes are written by
committees reviewing suggestions from the field. If you've ever
served on a committee, you can understand how sometimes something gets
put in just so a member will shut up and let them move on to something
more important. As I said in an earlier post, I would install the
best ground I could to protect the electronic equipment.

Dan
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zxcvbob
 
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Dan wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:24:41 -0600, wrote:


On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:36:27 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:


The metal water pipe idea does not sound good. What if it is isolated?
I doubt if the OP is going to check that. Someone else or the OP may see
the ground wire and assume it is good and take a risk without knowing it.


It is all galvanized pipe, right to the well tank. There is a ground
rod in the basement floor that goes to the breaker box, and there is a
thick wire (#8 or #6) from that same ground rod clamped to the galv.
pipe right by the tank. The pipe to the well is black plastic. so I
would say that without that wire there would not be a good plumbing
ground. However, if I get it from that outlet to the basement, I will
go right to the breaker panel, since it's no more than 15 ft away.

I tend to wonder why they would make it a law that this is not legal.
Electrically, it does the same thing as if the wire was part of the
romex..... ????? Like others said, "common sense".



I think it was because the grounds were often disconnected during
plumbing repairs, etc. and not reconnected. Codes are written by
committees reviewing suggestions from the field. If you've ever
served on a committee, you can understand how sometimes something gets
put in just so a member will shut up and let them move on to something
more important. As I said in an earlier post, I would install the
best ground I could to protect the electronic equipment.

Dan



There's more to it than that. If there an electrical leak to ground
through the pipe, it can electrocute an unsuspecting plumber when he
breaks the pipe apart someday.

Bob
  #9   Report Post  
HorneTD
 
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wrote:
Is it legal according to the NEC to run a green wire of the same gauge
along side of the old romex that had no ground wire, and wire it to
the panel and outlet box? (I know local code might differ). I am
just asking because I want to move my computer and there is only 2
wire (no ground) romex going to that outlet. I would change the
romex, except that it's stapled inside the wall, and I am not tearing
open the wall. However, I think I can fish a #12 green wire up there.

I dont have the NEC book. Does anyone know?

Thanks

T-Pot


What you are proposing to do is fully compliant with the US NEC. viz.
"VII. Methods of Equipment Grounding
250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections.
Equipment grounding conductor connections at the source of separately
derived systems shall be made in accordance with 250.30(A)(1). Equipment
grounding conductor connections at service equipment shall be made as
indicated in 250.130(A) or (B). For replacement of non–grounding-type
receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit
extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment
grounding conductor in the branch circuit, connections shall be
permitted as indicated in 250.130(C).
(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions.
The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a
branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of
the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described
in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the
branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the
service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the
service equipment enclosure
FPN:See 406.3(D) for the use of a ground-fault circuit-interrupting type
of receptacle."
Copyright 2002 National Fire Protection Association.

--
Tom H
  #10   Report Post  
w_tom
 
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Both easier and safer to put tiny holes in selected walls;
to run a new wire to basement. One need not rip out whole
walls to install new wires. If you can't, a professional
electrician has a truck full of fancy tools and cute little
tricks to route that wire. Don't kludge the safety ground.
And do not connect any ground to water pipes - to dump
electricity into those pipes.

Safety grounding to water pipes is one of the worse
recommendations posted here. It puts plumbers at risk. It
puts bathing humans at even greater risk. It is using
something for what it was not intended. All electrical
connections to pipes to remove electricity from pipe. That
should be obvious because a wet human is at greatest risk to
electrocution. Never dump electricity into pipes.

Far easier than your posts suggest to run a clean, new 12
AWG wire.

Since we are on the topic, consider some other 'fixes' as
demonstrated in the newsgroup alt.home.repair entitled
"Grounding Rod Info" on 12 July 2003 at
http://tinyurl.com/hkjq

wrote:
That's exactly why, and what I said in my original post. If I chop
off the old one and cant get a new one in place, I am stuck ripping
walls apart. I DO NOT want to rip walls apart. If I cant get the
green wire up there, I am nowhere ahead or behind. There should be
room for one #12 green wire, or even a bare one. I figure that if I
cant get the ground wire to the basement, I could also run it outside
thru the siding, tack it along the bottom of the siding and have it
enter near alongside the phone wire, or outdoor spigot. Both are
nearby. I do think I can get it to the basement though.



  #11   Report Post  
Greg
 
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W_Tom is the grounding man and this is right, code wise.


Subject: Adding a ground wire
From: w_tom
Date: 11/29/04 8:35 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Both easier and safer to put tiny holes in selected walls;
to run a new wire to basement. One need not rip out whole
walls to install new wires. If you can't, a professional
electrician has a truck full of fancy tools and cute little
tricks to route that wire. Don't kludge the safety ground.
And do not connect any ground to water pipes - to dump
electricity into those pipes.

Safety grounding to water pipes is one of the worse
recommendations posted here. It puts plumbers at risk. It
puts bathing humans at even greater risk. It is using
something for what it was not intended. All electrical
connections to pipes to remove electricity from pipe. That
should be obvious because a wet human is at greatest risk to
electrocution. Never dump electricity into pipes.

Far easier than your posts suggest to run a clean, new 12
AWG wire.

Since we are on the topic, consider some other 'fixes' as
demonstrated in the newsgroup alt.home.repair entitled
"Grounding Rod Info" on 12 July 2003 at
http://tinyurl.com/hkjq

wrote:
That's exactly why, and what I said in my original post. If I chop
off the old one and cant get a new one in place, I am stuck ripping
walls apart. I DO NOT want to rip walls apart. If I cant get the
green wire up there, I am nowhere ahead or behind. There should be
room for one #12 green wire, or even a bare one. I figure that if I
cant get the ground wire to the basement, I could also run it outside
thru the siding, tack it along the bottom of the siding and have it
enter near alongside the phone wire, or outdoor spigot. Both are
nearby. I do think I can get it to the basement though.




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Greg
 
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Do not take advice from people who don't have a code book.
You can run a single conductor if it is not subject to damage. Green,
green/yellow or bare.


250.130C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The
equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a
branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the
following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in
250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the
branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service
equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service
equipment enclosure
FPN:See 406.3(D) for the use of a ground-fault circuit-interrupting type of
receptacle.
Section 250.130(C) applies to both ungrounded and grounded systems. It permits
a nongrounding-type receptacle to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle
under the following conditions.
(1) The branch circuit does not contain an equipment ground.
(2) An existing branch circuit is being extended for additional receptacle
outlets.
(3) An equipment grounding conductor is connected between the receptacle
grounding terminal and any accessible point on the grounding electrode system.
Because of the requirements of 250.52(A)(1), an interior metal water pipe more
than 5 ft from the point of entrance of the water pipe into the building is no
longer allowed to serve as a connection to the grounding electrode conductor.
  #17   Report Post  
Dan
 
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On 01 Dec 2004 05:00:06 GMT, (Greg) wrote:

Do not take advice from people who don't have a code book.
You can run a single conductor if it is not subject to damage. Green,
green/yellow or bare.


250.130C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The
equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a
branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the
following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in
250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the
branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service
equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service
equipment enclosure
FPN:See 406.3(D) for the use of a ground-fault circuit-interrupting type of
receptacle.
Section 250.130(C) applies to both ungrounded and grounded systems. It permits
a nongrounding-type receptacle to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle
under the following conditions.
(1) The branch circuit does not contain an equipment ground.
(2) An existing branch circuit is being extended for additional receptacle
outlets.
(3) An equipment grounding conductor is connected between the receptacle
grounding terminal and any accessible point on the grounding electrode system.
Because of the requirements of 250.52(A)(1), an interior metal water pipe more
than 5 ft from the point of entrance of the water pipe into the building is no
longer allowed to serve as a connection to the grounding electrode conductor.


This is made clear in the 2002 NEC Handbook, which the above quote
comes from. The NEC codebook does not contain the clarification
interpretation and accompanying illustration making the installation
clearly allowed under NEC 2002. I'll check the NEC 2005 today but
it's probably the same. I love these discussions, I learn something
once in a while.

Dan
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