I am in the excavation stage of a 500 sf. paver stone patio project. I have
already purchased the necessary materials: pavers, base rock, concrete sand,
snap edge etc, but I have one question... Should I use landscape fabric
under the base rock? Every book and web site concerning paver stone
installation that I've seen recommends using it. The paver manufacturer
(CalStone) doesn't mention it in their instructions and the distributor (who
appears to be quite knowledgeable on the subject) says it's not
recommended - they don't even carry the stuff.

For what it's worth, the patio will not be near the house and the area is
excavated 8 inches under which the soil is hard as rock. There will be 5"
of compacted base rock, 1" of concrete sand, and when the patio is complete
the pavers and joints will be sealed. Also, the ground does not freeze
here.

I've had paver patios with landscape fabric under the base material before
but still had weeds growing through the paver joints. I am told that
sealing everything from the top will prevent the weeds. I'm interested in
hearing about experiences from those that have skipped the landscape fabric
step.

Thanks,
M.Paul

"M.Paul" wrote:

-snip-
For what it's worth, the patio will not be near the house and the area is
excavated 8 inches under which the soil is hard as rock.

Is it clay or something with good drainage? If it is clay, I
would definitely use it. It wont prevent weeds, as they will seed
from the top--- but it will keep the subsoil from mixing with your
base rock. [i used #2 crushed stone- ymmv] I used it-- it was cheap
in comparison to the whole job & easy to install & I couldn't think of
any way it could harm the job.

There will be 5"
of compacted base rock, 1" of concrete sand,

I used 5-6 inches of #2 stone as a base-- *power* tamped it-- then a
couple inches of 'fines'. Next time I'll use mason's sand instead
of the fines. The fines don't drain as well as sand -- and they
discolored the stones for a couple months until all the really fine
stuff soaked in.

I'm also real happy I broke down and rented a power tamper at the last
minute. I never would have done a decent job with a hand tamper.

the pavers and joints will be sealed. Also, the ground does not freeze
here.
-snip-

Without the ground freezing yours might be more forgiving of less
tamping. -- But anyone in frost country should spend the money on a
tamper. [$75 a day in this part of the world]


Jim

I've had paver patios with landscape fabric under the base material before
but still had weeds growing through the paver joints. I am told that
sealing everything from the top will prevent the weeds. I'm interested in
hearing about experiences from those that have skipped the landscape
fabric
step.

Generally, with the below grade prep you ve done, you dont need fabric.
There arent any weeds likely to come from below. The odd windblown seed
will find its way between your pavers..when it sprouts, pull it out. Thats
the way ours went...no fabric..10 yrs, no problems

Thanks for the advice and words of experience. I will definately be using a
power plate compactor to compact the base rock (I think what I'm using is
called 3/4-minus). I am not so much concerned about weeds growing through
the base rock layer - I don't think they will get through it - but I am
concerned about the possibility of the clay soil and base rock layer
gradually mixing together (causing movement) over the years. But
considering that the landscape fabric would be approx 10% of the total cost
of the job and the paver stone distributor telling me that it's a waste of
time and money, I'm still not sure what I will do. With only two weeks
before the base rock arrives, I need to make up my mind soon. Also, thanks
for the advice on fine sand vs mason's sand. I don't want any staining as
I'd like to get everything sealed-up (without stains) before the rains come.
Thanks again,
M.Paul

"M.Paul" wrote in message
...
I am in the excavation stage of a 500 sf. paver stone patio project. I
have
already purchased the necessary materials: pavers, base rock, concrete
sand,
snap edge etc, but I have one question... Should I use landscape fabric
under the base rock? Every book and web site concerning paver stone
installation that I've seen recommends using it. The paver manufacturer
(CalStone) doesn't mention it in their instructions and the distributor
(who
appears to be quite knowledgeable on the subject) says it's not
recommended - they don't even carry the stuff.

For what it's worth, the patio will not be near the house and the area is
excavated 8 inches under which the soil is hard as rock. There will be 5"
of compacted base rock, 1" of concrete sand, and when the patio is
complete
the pavers and joints will be sealed. Also, the ground does not freeze
here.

I've had paver patios with landscape fabric under the base material before
but still had weeds growing through the paver joints. I am told that
sealing everything from the top will prevent the weeds. I'm interested in
hearing about experiences from those that have skipped the landscape
fabric
step.

Thanks,
M.Paul

May can contact a nusery supply center (wholesale) and get what they refer
to as ground cover for that. Better for underlayment where using rock and
doing any paving over the landscape fabric. Not sure if any cheaper but I
nver had to buy extra as always had on site at my nursery.


"M.Paul" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the advice and words of experience. I will definately be using
a
power plate compactor to compact the base rock (I think what I'm using is
called 3/4-minus). I am not so much concerned about weeds growing through
the base rock layer - I don't think they will get through it - but I am
concerned about the possibility of the clay soil and base rock layer
gradually mixing together (causing movement) over the years. But
considering that the landscape fabric would be approx 10% of the total
cost
of the job and the paver stone distributor telling me that it's a waste of
time and money, I'm still not sure what I will do. With only two weeks
before the base rock arrives, I need to make up my mind soon. Also,
thanks
for the advice on fine sand vs mason's sand. I don't want any staining as
I'd like to get everything sealed-up (without stains) before the rains
come.
Thanks again,
M.Paul

"M.Paul" wrote in message
...
I am in the excavation stage of a 500 sf. paver stone patio project. I
have
already purchased the necessary materials: pavers, base rock, concrete
sand,
snap edge etc, but I have one question... Should I use landscape fabric
under the base rock? Every book and web site concerning paver stone
installation that I've seen recommends using it. The paver manufacturer
(CalStone) doesn't mention it in their instructions and the distributor
(who
appears to be quite knowledgeable on the subject) says it's not
recommended - they don't even carry the stuff.

For what it's worth, the patio will not be near the house and the area
is
excavated 8 inches under which the soil is hard as rock. There will be
5"
of compacted base rock, 1" of concrete sand, and when the patio is
complete
the pavers and joints will be sealed. Also, the ground does not freeze
here.

I've had paver patios with landscape fabric under the base material
before
but still had weeds growing through the paver joints. I am told that
sealing everything from the top will prevent the weeds. I'm interested
in
hearing about experiences from those that have skipped the landscape
fabric
step.

Thanks,
M.Paul

"M.Paul"

concerned about the possibility of the clay soil and base rock layer
gradually mixing together (causing movement) over the years. But
considering that the landscape fabric would be approx 10% of the total
cost
of the job and the paver stone distributor telling me that it's a waste of

It depends. Here is a quote from the ICPI Tech Spec 2.
http://www.icpi.org/techspecs/index.cfm?id=6&tech=02
"Applying Geotextiles (Optional)
Geotextile may be used in areas where soil remains saturated part of the
year, where there is freeze and thaw, or over clay and moist silty subgrade
soils. As a separation layer, it prevents soil from being pressed into the
aggregate base under loads, especially when saturated, thereby reducing the
likelihood of rutting. When geotextiles are used they preserve the load
bearing capacity of the base over a greater length of time than placement
without them. Woven or non woven fabric may be used under the base with a
minimum equivalent opening size of No. 30*50 sieve. Table 2 lists minimum
requirements of geotextiles for base consolidation and soil separation.
These are from Task Force 25AASHTO Guide Specification and Test Procedures
for Geotextiles (1990). When the fabric is placed in the excavated area, it
should be turned up along the sides of the opening,covering the sides of the
base layer. There should be no wrinkles on the bottom. When the aggregate is
dumped on the fabric, the tires from trucks should be kept off the fabric to
prevent wrinkling."


time and money, I'm still not sure what I will do. With only two weeks
before the base rock arrives, I need to make up my mind soon. Also,
thanks
for the advice on fine sand vs mason's sand. I don't want any staining as
I'd like to get everything sealed-up (without stains) before the rains
come.

Concrete sand that conforms to ASTM 33 is recommended for bedding sand. The
size of the granules are important for best performance of the interlocking
pavers. Masons sand should not be used for bedding sand, nor should
limestone screenings. Masons sand (or poymeric sand on steeper
applications) is recommended for top dressing.

ICPI (Interlocking Concrete Pavingstone Institute) Specs are available at
the link above and describe the engineering standards for best practices.

Will Niccolls

"M.Paul"

For what it's worth, the patio will not be near the house and the area is
excavated 8 inches under which the soil is hard as rock. There will be 5"
of compacted base rock, 1" of concrete sand, and when the patio is
complete
the pavers and joints will be sealed. Also, the ground does not freeze
here.

I've had paver patios with landscape fabric under the base material before
but still had weeds growing through the paver joints. I am told that
sealing everything from the top will prevent the weeds. I'm interested in
hearing about experiences from those that have skipped the landscape
fabric
step.

Sorry for replying twice.

Landscape fabric (as others may have pointed out) is different than the
geotextile used as separation fabric for paver installation. Neither will
prevent weed growth. Weeds take root in the sand in the joints. Polymeric
sand will help with that.

Next, the single biggest problem for patios is usually compaction, both of
the subsoil surface, and the base aggregate material. A plate compactor
works for 2-4 inches of aggregate, but it sometimes helps to compact the
soil with a jumping jack style tamper, or even to excavate more soil and
replace it with the aggregate, especially in areas where the soil has been
disturbed (around foundations, deck footings, etc).

We typically build the base 1 foot wider than the patio surface to make sure
the edges stay stable and don't fall away, and to have a good anchor for the
edge restraint spikes. If you can hammer them in with a 20oz hammer, you
haven't compacted enough. (We use 3 to 5lb sledges)

Let us know how it turns out.

Will Niccolls