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#1
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
My house (and furnace) is now 1.5 years old. Brand new construction
1.5 years ago. Since it is our first house we didn't think about things like putting in a different furnace. We picked the colors, cabinets, hardwood, countertops, and just let the builder put in all their default models for things like doors, windows, furnace, etc. I assume i have what people call a Natural Gas Mid Efficiency furnace. Since all the high efficiency ones advertize multiple fan speeds (which mine doesn't have) i would assume mine isn't one of those. First some questions: Are the energy savings from HE furnaces in the electircy needed to run the fan? Or the efficiency of burning the gas (ie uses less gas to make same amount of heat)? Or something else? And what is the purpose of multiple fan speeds? Is this so you can leave the fan on a low setting constantly to keep air circulation happening? Other than allowing the air filter to be constantly working, what is the purpose of this? Would it be worthwhile to replace mine with high efficiency even though it (and the building) is so new. two story, 1700 square feet townhouse. On the main floor only two walls are exposed to the outside. The other two walls are shared with neighbouring townhouses. Our entire 2nd story is exposed though since neither neighbour has a 2nd floor. We are pretty energy conscious so i bet the furnace is already running less than the average household. I'd hate to spend $3000 (Canadian) on a furnace and find out i save only $100 a year in gas/electiricty. Are there any theoretical numbers? A TV commercial says "It will save the average household X dollars a month" but with no indication of what "average" is. Maybe someone has a study where a mid efficiency furnace runs for X hours a day to heat the house, and a HE furnace would only run for Y hours. I could use that ratio to estimate something. Any thoughs appreciated. |
#2
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
First of all, don't listen to TV adds directly. To know what you may save
will be a complex issue. There are many factors such as the actual required BTU's, how the heat will be distributed, the type of air flow effect, the heat loss in the home, and other things I can not even think of at this time. There is also the ratio of the cost of the amount of energy difference between the two systems to give you the BTU's you require in the first place, and the system efficiency. When you sit down and scientifically work in all the factors, since your home is not a thermo precision environment, you may find that the results can be different than what you speculated in the first place. It would take someone with a lot of experience and knowledge to really work this out for you. If you call in one of those salesmen from these companies, all he will see is his commission for selling you a system. He will then come up with all kinds of charts, figures, and examples to justify what he is going to sell you. For an example, you can look at what your neighbours are doing since the climate of the area is the same, and their house construction must be similar. You can enquire to them about their heating costs, and type of heating system that they have. You have to factor in, if they are leaving the doors, or windows opened more often, and or leaving the garage opened longer. These things will show a difference on the average. There is even the factor of how the wind blows on the building, how much sun light they are receiving, and even the colour of the outside walls and roof in some cases. Darker colours will tend to heat up more when the sun is shining. This will contribute to a slight amount of less heat loss, even though the house is insulated. In the summer, a dark coloured exterior may infact increase the air conditioning costs. If you look at the cost difference that you may save, over the lifespan of the heating system you choose to change to, and the maintenance required, you may find that there may be very little recovery or non at all, that makes it worth the time and effort. If you do not have central air conditioning, you may want to consider a heat pump. this would cost about the same or a bit more than changing a furnace. With temperatures that are not colder than about -15 Cells (depending on the type), the heat pump will act as a heater, and will air condition in the summer. These are more efficient than most other systems. If you have a central system that uses forced air, there will be no need for extra duct work. You may recover some of the cost, but there are other conveniences with this type of system. -- Greetings, Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG ========================================= WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm ========================================= "kevins_news" wrote in message news My house (and furnace) is now 1.5 years old. Brand new construction 1.5 years ago. Since it is our first house we didn't think about things like putting in a different furnace. We picked the colors, cabinets, hardwood, countertops, and just let the builder put in all their default models for things like doors, windows, furnace, etc. I assume i have what people call a Natural Gas Mid Efficiency furnace. Since all the high efficiency ones advertize multiple fan speeds (which mine doesn't have) i would assume mine isn't one of those. First some questions: Are the energy savings from HE furnaces in the electircy needed to run the fan? Or the efficiency of burning the gas (ie uses less gas to make same amount of heat)? Or something else? And what is the purpose of multiple fan speeds? Is this so you can leave the fan on a low setting constantly to keep air circulation happening? Other than allowing the air filter to be constantly working, what is the purpose of this? Would it be worthwhile to replace mine with high efficiency even though it (and the building) is so new. two story, 1700 square feet townhouse. On the main floor only two walls are exposed to the outside. The other two walls are shared with neighbouring townhouses. Our entire 2nd story is exposed though since neither neighbour has a 2nd floor. We are pretty energy conscious so i bet the furnace is already running less than the average household. I'd hate to spend $3000 (Canadian) on a furnace and find out i save only $100 a year in gas/electiricty. Are there any theoretical numbers? A TV commercial says "It will save the average household X dollars a month" but with no indication of what "average" is. Maybe someone has a study where a mid efficiency furnace runs for X hours a day to heat the house, and a HE furnace would only run for Y hours. I could use that ratio to estimate something. Any thoughs appreciated. |
#3
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
On 6-Jan-2004, kevins_news wrote:
My house (and furnace) is now 1.5 years old. Brand new construction 1.5 years ago. [...] Would it be worthwhile to replace mine with high efficiency even though it (and the building) is so new. It is unlikely that you'd save enough to justify the $3K on the new one. Even $100 per year takes 30 years to recover the cost. There is only a small difference in the energy efficiency between the mid- and high- efficiency units. We are moving and the new place has a high efficiency FAG unit. The home inspector told us that the high efficiency furnaces tend to have higher maintenance costs and that pretty much wipes out the saving compared to mid-efficiency. I haven't verified his claim on maintenance costs, but he is a good inspector and we've dealt with him before and found him to be reliable. If you want to save money, you'd probably be able to do more with $3k in other areas - Install a computerized thermostat if you don't already have one. Set the temp back during the day (if no one's home) and overnight. Buy everyone a nice comforter :-). If you double the thickness of the drywall in every room, you'll decrease the temp fluctuations by adding to the thermal mass. - Change lights from incandecent to compact fluorecent - Make sure you close curtains at night and on the north side during the day. Make sure they're open on the south side to get sun. - Make sure your vapour barrier is complete. Many new homes in the Toronto area (for example) have a vapour barrier installed prior to the electrical, hvac and plumbing. The result is that the vapour barrier is ripped up and compromised by these thradesman. Patch and plug any leaks they've made. - Plug any other air leaks. If you don't have a heat-recover ventilator, look into adding one. - Electric water heat? - insulate the tank. - Check the attic insulation - the odds are you can top it up. - If you have half-wall insulation in the basement, add insulation right to the floor. There are a gazzillion other thnigs you can do. Mike |
#4
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
Even if you saved 30% (highly optomistic) it would probably never pay
for itself. Besides, in 10 years when your current furnace may need to be replaced, there will be even more efficient furnaces on the market at lower prices. "kevins_news" wrote in message news My house (and furnace) is now 1.5 years old. Brand new construction 1.5 years ago. Since it is our first house we didn't think about things like putting in a different furnace. We picked the colors, cabinets, hardwood, countertops, and just let the builder put in all their default models for things like doors, windows, furnace, etc. I assume i have what people call a Natural Gas Mid Efficiency furnace. Since all the high efficiency ones advertize multiple fan speeds (which mine doesn't have) i would assume mine isn't one of those. First some questions: Are the energy savings from HE furnaces in the electircy needed to run the fan? Or the efficiency of burning the gas (ie uses less gas to make same amount of heat)? Or something else? And what is the purpose of multiple fan speeds? Is this so you can leave the fan on a low setting constantly to keep air circulation happening? Other than allowing the air filter to be constantly working, what is the purpose of this? Would it be worthwhile to replace mine with high efficiency even though it (and the building) is so new. two story, 1700 square feet townhouse. On the main floor only two walls are exposed to the outside. The other two walls are shared with neighbouring townhouses. Our entire 2nd story is exposed though since neither neighbour has a 2nd floor. We are pretty energy conscious so i bet the furnace is already running less than the average household. I'd hate to spend $3000 (Canadian) on a furnace and find out i save only $100 a year in gas/electiricty. Are there any theoretical numbers? A TV commercial says "It will save the average household X dollars a month" but with no indication of what "average" is. Maybe someone has a study where a mid efficiency furnace runs for X hours a day to heat the house, and a HE furnace would only run for Y hours. I could use that ratio to estimate something. Any thoughs appreciated. |
#5
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
In line...
"kevins_news" wrote in message news My house (and furnace) is now 1.5 years old. Brand new construction 1.5 years ago. Since it is our first house we didn't think about things like putting in a different furnace. We picked the colors, cabinets, hardwood, countertops, and just let the builder put in all their default models for things like doors, windows, furnace, etc. I assume i have what people call a Natural Gas Mid Efficiency furnace. Since all the high efficiency ones advertize multiple fan speeds (which mine doesn't have) i would assume mine isn't one of those. It probably a multi speed blower, even if it is a builder's grade furnace. US Energy code says the lowest efficiency furncae out there is 78%. I haven't seen a 78 in a few years as most are 80%. First some questions: Are the energy savings from HE furnaces in the electircy needed to run the fan? Or the efficiency of burning the gas (ie uses less gas to make same amount of heat)? Some is in the blower efficiency, but not all. Mostly it has to do with the efficiency of the burning gas. And what is the purpose of multiple fan speeds? Is this so you can leave the fan on a low setting constantly to keep air circulation happening? Other than allowing the air filter to be constantly working, what is the purpose of this? Furnaces are set up for a specific temprature rise. The multiple speeds are for setting this 'Delta T.' Some of the equiptment has a setting for continous circulation for better air filtration, but probably not yours. Would it be worthwhile to replace mine with high efficiency even though it (and the building) is so new. two story, 1700 square feet townhouse. On the main floor only two walls are exposed to the outside. The other two walls are shared with neighbouring townhouses. Our entire 2nd story is exposed though since neither neighbour has a 2nd floor. If you asked me this question while I was at your house, I'd stifle a grin and say a resounding "NO!" You'll never make the return on your investment, in my opinion. We are pretty energy conscious so i bet the furnace is already running less than the average household. I'd hate to spend $3000 (Canadian) on a furnace and find out i save only $100 a year in gas/electiricty. Good for you. Are there any theoretical numbers? A TV commercial says "It will save the average household X dollars a month" but with no indication of what "average" is. Maybe someone has a study where a mid efficiency furnace runs for X hours a day to heat the house, and a HE furnace would only run for Y hours. I could use that ratio to estimate something. Don't beleive everything you hear. I'd like to think those commercials are for the people that have furnaces a lot older than yours. Any thoughs appreciated. You're welcome. |
#6
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
OK but what about the difference between a new oil furnace and a new natural
gas furnace? I was all set to go with a new high efficiency natural gas furnace when I started talking to the local heating guys who mentioned that the delivery cost of natural gas keeps rising and that they think a new oil furnace would cost less in the long run. Any ideas or comments? |
#7
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
On 6-Jan-2004, "R Doornbosch" wrote:
the local heating guys who mentioned that the delivery cost of natural gas keeps rising and that they think a new oil furnace would cost less in the long run. Any ideas or comments? Years ago they told everyone to switch to gas, since oil costs keep rising. It's a cyclical thing - we used to heat with coal, coal oil, oil, now gas. Every one has its day and advances in technology, changes in relative cost etc will keep us changing heating methods every so often. If fusion technology actually happens (1st fusion plant is scheduled to be build "soon") we may end up switching to electric ground-source heat pumps. What you want to do is go with the most efficient "system", not furnace. A high efficiency furnace in a leaky, uninsulated house is not as good as a low-efficiency heater in a well-insulated house. Some passive solar houses use wood heat for a backup and wood heat is not very efficient - it nonetheless creates a cost-effective solution. If you have an _old_ inefficient furnace, replace it. Otherwise, fix up the house so that the entire _system_ is efficient. Mike |
#8
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:55:49 GMT, "Michael Daly"
wrote: On 6-Jan-2004, kevins_news wrote: My house (and furnace) is now 1.5 years old. Brand new construction 1.5 years ago. [...] Would it be worthwhile to replace mine with high efficiency even though it (and the building) is so new. It is unlikely that you'd save enough to justify the $3K on the new one. Thanks to everyone for the responses. I have friends who have bought old houses and need to replace their 20-25year old furnaces. They're buying high efficiency ones. While it is a good idea for them, i kind of figured it wouldn't be for me. If you want to save money, you'd probably be able to do more with $3k in other areas - Install a computerized thermostat if you don't already have one. Set the temp back during the day (if no one's home) and overnight. Buy everyone a nice comforter :-). Done. We like it cold at night. Especially since the wife is a heater herself. - Change lights from incandecent to compact fluorecent Done. - Make sure you close curtains at night and on the north side during the day. Make sure they're open on the south side to get sun. Yep. - Make sure your vapour barrier is complete. Many new homes in the Toronto area (for example) have a vapour barrier installed prior to the electrical, hvac and plumbing. The result is that the vapour barrier is ripped up and compromised by these thradesman. Patch and plug any leaks they've made. Bingo. How do i do this? I noticed when i messing with a phone outlet on one wall. It's a wall that is perpendicular to an outside wall (one of the walls my townhouse shares with the neighbour). The outlet is 8 feet in from the outside wall. When i took off the coverplate i could feel a slight cold air breeze. Is this somehow pluggable right around the outlet or do i have to track down the hole in the vapor barrier on the outside wall? Just FYI, this 'party wall' between townhouses is made of my paint, drywall, studs&insulation, 3 layers of drywall, thier studs&insulation, drywall and their paint. So i don't think there's leakage between houses. - Plug any other air leaks. If you don't have a heat-recover ventilator, look into adding one. Funny. A month after moving in we went to a homeshow where we found out about about all these things for the first time. If only we'd done this before so that we could have paid to have these upgrades done at build time since they would have been relativly cheep at that time instead of expensive upgrades now. Things like HE furnaces, whole house ventilation with heat-recover, better windows, extra insulation in the walls, etc. - Electric water heat? - insulate the tank. Gas. I thought about buying the $20 water tank insulating blankets at home depot. - Check the attic insulation - the odds are you can top it up. Blown cellulose stuff. R42 (or 32, can't remember). But one can always add more. - If you have half-wall insulation in the basement, add insulation right to the floor. Down to floor. There are a gazzillion other thnigs you can do. I've seen a few websites and read many usnet postings. So far all the 'little things' i've found to do are pretty much the ones you mentioned. Is there another good source of things like the above that one can do? The plan is to, sometime in the future, build a strawbale (or other highly efficient) house more out in the country with wind and solar generators. Possibly even go so far as to put in water reclamation facilites and whatnot. We'd love to be completly, or at least mostly, off the grid. Thanks again. |
#9
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
On 6-Jan-2004, kevins_news wrote:
Bingo. How do i do this? The biggest problem is getting to the leak if the whole whose is finished. An unfinished basement gets you to the place where many of the external connections (plumbing - like outside water tap, electrical, phone/cable etc), so you can close those. If you have a suspended ceiling try removing some panels near the outside walls and see how it looks. I noticed when i messing with a phone outlet on one wall. It's a wall that is perpendicular to an outside wall (one of the walls my townhouse shares with the neighbour). The outlet is 8 feet in from the outside wall. When i took off the coverplate i could feel a slight cold air breeze. Is this somehow pluggable right around the outlet or do i have to track down the hole in the vapor barrier on the outside wall? You can get an airtight box and seal the cover for any electical outlet. Not as good as getting to the source of the leak, but adequate otherwise. Check the front and back walls for any obvious leaks - the external phone connector (sometimes a box) could be open. Don't plug a weeping hole in the brick though. Holes are often made for external air conditioning line, phone/cable electrical service etc. Find and seal them from the outside if you can't get to the vapour barrier inside. If only we'd done this before so that we could have paid to have these upgrades done at build time since they would have been relativly cheep at that time instead of expensive upgrades now. Things like HE furnaces, whole house ventilation with heat-recover, better windows, extra insulation in the walls, etc. Ahhh... 20/20 hindsight - just think what your _next_ house will be like :-) Is there another good source of things like the above that one can do? Keep looking - I can't think of any single source. Perhaps someone else can. The plan is to, sometime in the future, build a strawbale (or other highly efficient) house more out in the country with wind and solar generators. Possibly even go so far as to put in water reclamation facilites and whatnot. We'd love to be completly, or at least mostly, off the grid. You and me both - I'm close to doing this, it all depends on finding a job in a place where I can afford the land. T.O. is toooo $$$$$. Mike |
#10
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
SNIP - Just FYI, this 'party wall' between townhouses is made of my paint,
drywall, studs&insulation, 3 layers of drywall, thier studs&insulation, drywall and their paint. So i don't think there's leakage between houses. - There could be a great deal of leakage in this wall. If there are any pipe chases, electrical runs, duct runs or other penetrations that go from the basement to the attic, the wall structure will act as a chimney pumping heat from the house to the attic. Have a contractor with a blower door come in a test your house. He can tell you how much your house leaks and where the serious leaks are. TAB Dude |
#11
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
One place to look for energy leak is under the bottom row of siding.
I often see huge gaps there. Check with an inspection mirror. If you see a gap it needs to be filled with backer rod and silicone. Will keep air in and bugs out. |
#12
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
kevins_news wrote: My house (and furnace) is now 1.5 years old. Brand new construction 1.5 years ago. Since it is our first house we didn't think about things like putting in a different furnace. We picked the colors, cabinets, hardwood, countertops, and just let the builder put in all their default models for things like doors, windows, furnace, etc. I assume i have what people call a Natural Gas Mid Efficiency furnace. Since all the high efficiency ones advertize multiple fan speeds (which mine doesn't have) i would assume mine isn't one of those. First some questions: Are the energy savings from HE furnaces in the electircy needed to run the fan? Or the efficiency of burning the gas (ie uses less gas to make same amount of heat)? Or something else? And what is the purpose of multiple fan speeds? Is this so you can leave the fan on a low setting constantly to keep air circulation happening? Other than allowing the air filter to be constantly working, what is the purpose of this? Would it be worthwhile to replace mine with high efficiency even though it (and the building) is so new. two story, 1700 square feet townhouse. On the main floor only two walls are exposed to the outside. The other two walls are shared with neighbouring townhouses. Our entire 2nd story is exposed though since neither neighbour has a 2nd floor. We are pretty energy conscious so i bet the furnace is already running less than the average household. I'd hate to spend $3000 (Canadian) on a furnace and find out i save only $100 a year in gas/electiricty. Are there any theoretical numbers? A TV commercial says "It will save the average household X dollars a month" but with no indication of what "average" is. Maybe someone has a study where a mid efficiency furnace runs for X hours a day to heat the house, and a HE furnace would only run for Y hours. I could use that ratio to estimate something. Any thoughs appreciated. Sure, calculate the annual therms and cost of your gas now. Find out the efficiency of your current furnace and the efficiency of what you would replace it. As a ratio of the efficiency ratings, calculate the annual therms. You will probably find that your payout on a $3000 furnace would take forever. If you like your present furnace, forget it. The more efficient furnace will likely be more noisy. |
#13
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message ... Sure, calculate the annual therms and cost of your gas now. And gas projected costs in a year, 2, 3, 5 years out. Find out the efficiency of your current furnace and the efficiency of what you would replace it. Either a 80%, or a 90%..and its easy to find out if someone would post a model number... As a ratio of the efficiency ratings, calculate the annual therms. You will probably find that your payout on a $3000 furnace would take forever. Not forever, but longer than the unit will last. If you like your present furnace, forget it. The more efficient furnace will likely be more noisy. Doubt that. Installed correctly, sealed combustion units are all but silent upon fire. The blower makes more noise than the burners. |
#14
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
You will probably find that your payout on a $3000 furnace would take forever. Not forever, but longer than the unit will last. The payback is negative if the (fuel savings - high maintenance costs) are less than the investment return on the $3000. |
#15
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
"HeatMan" wrote in message
hlink.net... In line... "kevins_news" wrote in message news My house (and furnace) is now 1.5 years old. Brand new construction 1.5 years ago. Since it is our first house we didn't think about things like putting in a different furnace. We picked the colors, cabinets, hardwood, countertops, and just let the builder put in all their default models for things like doors, windows, furnace, etc. I assume i have what people call a Natural Gas Mid Efficiency furnace. Since all the high efficiency ones advertize multiple fan speeds (which mine doesn't have) i would assume mine isn't one of those. It probably a multi speed blower, even if it is a builder's grade furnace. US Energy code says the lowest efficiency furncae out there is 78%. I haven't seen a 78 in a few years as most are 80%. First some questions: Are the energy savings from HE furnaces in the electircy needed to run the fan? Or the efficiency of burning the gas (ie uses less gas to make same amount of heat)? Some is in the blower efficiency, but not all. Mostly it has to do with the efficiency of the burning gas. And what is the purpose of multiple fan speeds? Is this so you can leave the fan on a low setting constantly to keep air circulation happening? Other than allowing the air filter to be constantly working, what is the purpose of this? Furnaces are set up for a specific temprature rise. The multiple speeds are for setting this 'Delta T.' Some of the equiptment has a setting for continous circulation for better air filtration, but probably not yours. Would it be worthwhile to replace mine with high efficiency even though it (and the building) is so new. two story, 1700 square feet townhouse. On the main floor only two walls are exposed to the outside. The other two walls are shared with neighbouring townhouses. Our entire 2nd story is exposed though since neither neighbour has a 2nd floor. If you asked me this question while I was at your house, I'd stifle a grin and say a resounding "NO!" You'll never make the return on your investment, in my opinion. We are pretty energy conscious so i bet the furnace is already running less than the average household. I'd hate to spend $3000 (Canadian) on a furnace and find out i save only $100 a year in gas/electiricty. Good for you. Are there any theoretical numbers? A TV commercial says "It will save the average household X dollars a month" but with no indication of what "average" is. Maybe someone has a study where a mid efficiency furnace runs for X hours a day to heat the house, and a HE furnace would only run for Y hours. I could use that ratio to estimate something. Don't beleive everything you hear. I'd like to think those commercials are for the people that have furnaces a lot older than yours. Any thoughs appreciated. You're welcome. As I agree with most of your posting, did you see he lives in Canada? The difference in the higher efficiency furnace may pay off. -- kjpro _-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-_ ( kjpro @ starband . net ) remove spaces to e-mail Want it done yesterday? Or done right today, to save money tomorrow!! _________________________ __ |
#16
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
"Jerry G." wrote in message
... First of all, don't listen to TV adds directly. To know what you may save will be a complex issue. There are many factors such as the actual required BTU's, how the heat will be distributed, the type of air flow effect, the heat loss in the home, and other things I can not even think of at this time. There is also the ratio of the cost of the amount of energy difference between the two systems to give you the BTU's you require in the first place, and the system efficiency. When you sit down and scientifically work in all the factors, since your home is not a thermo precision environment, you may find that the results can be different than what you speculated in the first place. It would take someone with a lot of experience and knowledge to really work this out for you. If you call in one of those salesmen from these companies, all he will see is his commission for selling you a system. He will then come up with all kinds of charts, figures, and examples to justify what he is going to sell you. For an example, you can look at what your neighbours are doing since the climate of the area is the same, and their house construction must be similar. You can enquire to them about their heating costs, and type of heating system that they have. You have to factor in, if they are leaving the doors, or windows opened more often, and or leaving the garage opened longer. These things will show a difference on the average. There is even the factor of how the wind blows on the building, how much sun light they are receiving, and even the colour of the outside walls and roof in some cases. Darker colours will tend to heat up more when the sun is shining. This will contribute to a slight amount of less heat loss, even though the house is insulated. In the summer, a dark coloured exterior may infact increase the air conditioning costs. If you look at the cost difference that you may save, over the lifespan of the heating system you choose to change to, and the maintenance required, you may find that there may be very little recovery or non at all, that makes it worth the time and effort. If you do not have central air conditioning, you may want to consider a heat pump. this would cost about the same or a bit more than changing a furnace. With temperatures that are not colder than about -15 Cells (depending on the type), the heat pump will act as a heater, and will air condition in the summer. These are more efficient than most other systems. If you have a central system that uses forced air, there will be no need for extra duct work. You may recover some of the cost, but there are other conveniences with this type of system. Heat pump in Canada? I don't think that would be a wise investment. -- Greetings, Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG ========================================= WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm ========================================= -- kjpro _-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-__-~-_ ( kjpro @ starband . net ) remove spaces to e-mail Want it done yesterday? Or done right today, to save money tomorrow!! _________________________ __ "kevins_news" wrote in message news My house (and furnace) is now 1.5 years old. Brand new construction 1.5 years ago. Since it is our first house we didn't think about things like putting in a different furnace. We picked the colors, cabinets, hardwood, countertops, and just let the builder put in all their default models for things like doors, windows, furnace, etc. I assume i have what people call a Natural Gas Mid Efficiency furnace. Since all the high efficiency ones advertize multiple fan speeds (which mine doesn't have) i would assume mine isn't one of those. First some questions: Are the energy savings from HE furnaces in the electircy needed to run the fan? Or the efficiency of burning the gas (ie uses less gas to make same amount of heat)? Or something else? And what is the purpose of multiple fan speeds? Is this so you can leave the fan on a low setting constantly to keep air circulation happening? Other than allowing the air filter to be constantly working, what is the purpose of this? Would it be worthwhile to replace mine with high efficiency even though it (and the building) is so new. two story, 1700 square feet townhouse. On the main floor only two walls are exposed to the outside. The other two walls are shared with neighbouring townhouses. Our entire 2nd story is exposed though since neither neighbour has a 2nd floor. We are pretty energy conscious so i bet the furnace is already running less than the average household. I'd hate to spend $3000 (Canadian) on a furnace and find out i save only $100 a year in gas/electiricty. Are there any theoretical numbers? A TV commercial says "It will save the average household X dollars a month" but with no indication of what "average" is. Maybe someone has a study where a mid efficiency furnace runs for X hours a day to heat the house, and a HE furnace would only run for Y hours. I could use that ratio to estimate something. Any thoughs appreciated. |
#17
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
"Martik" wrote in message news You will probably find that your payout on a $3000 furnace would take forever. Not forever, but longer than the unit will last. The payback is negative if the (fuel savings - high maintenance costs) are less than the investment return on the $3000. Actually...lets get one thing clear. There is never a payback period. None. Ever. You buy the unit....its saving you $XX a month. Big deal. You still have to pay to run it, and you still have to buy fuel for it. Unless you are using an old 1950 Chrysler Airtemp with a gas valve pressure thats so damn off its blowing black soot, and running the unit so hot its TR is about 100F above factory spec, and have been doing that for years, even a 94% wont really do much but lower the expense per month to use the unit. Payoff periods are a sales technique that the public actually enjoys. I dont use them. Someone asks me what the payoff period for a new unit is, I tell them about 15 minutes after I hand you the bill....it will take that long to read the warranty to you and familiarize you with the controls, and for you to write a check....then of course, we pull out the States calculation sheet and show them what they might save....thats MIGHT. If you have a $400 a month gas bill, and you put in a unit and its only using $200 a month, you STILL have a $200+ a month investment in the unit. IF you have a gas unit thats using $200 a month and you put in a heat pump that eliminates your fuel bill, but raises your electrical by $100 a month, you still have $100 a month going into that machine. Payoff? Depends on how you look at it. Some see it different than others. |
#18
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
"Martik" wrote in message news You will probably find that your payout on a $3000 furnace would take forever. Not forever, but longer than the unit will last. The payback is negative if the (fuel savings - high maintenance costs) are less than the investment return on the $3000. OK-- who left the sky light open? We got us an MBA in here now... |
#19
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
"Oscar_Lives" wrote in message news:yuKKb.752937$HS4.5927515@attbi_s01... "Martik" wrote in message news You will probably find that your payout on a $3000 furnace would take forever. Not forever, but longer than the unit will last. The payback is negative if the (fuel savings - high maintenance costs) are less than the investment return on the $3000. OK-- who left the sky light open? We got us an MBA in here now... Dammit man..I handed YOU the tamper proof Torx and the driver... |
#20
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
On 6-Jan-2004, "kjpro" ( kjpro @ starband . com ) see-my-sig-for-e-mail wrote:
As I agree with most of your posting, did you see he lives in Canada? The difference in the higher efficiency furnace may pay off. Yes all of us Canadians live in -60C temps 10 months of the year. Reality - there isn't that much difference between northern US and Southern Canada. It's unlikely that the higher efficiency will pay off. I've done the numbers several times in the past and even the higher gas prices today won't make a difference. Mike PS - lots of heat pumps up here. |
#21
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
On 6-Jan-2004, "Art Begun" wrote:
One place to look for energy leak is under the bottom row of siding. That leak should be outside the vapour barrier. Better to fix the vapour barrier and let the insulation breath. Mike |
#22
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
I disagree. Latex paint on the siding will let the vapor breath. The
cold air leaking in could cause condensation to form. "Michael Daly" wrote in message le.rogers.com... On 6-Jan-2004, "Art Begun" wrote: One place to look for energy leak is under the bottom row of siding. That leak should be outside the vapour barrier. Better to fix the vapour barrier and let the insulation breath. Mike |
#23
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
Michael Daly wrote: On 6-Jan-2004, "kjpro" ( kjpro @ starband . com ) see-my-sig-for-e-mail wrote: As I agree with most of your posting, did you see he lives in Canada? The difference in the higher efficiency furnace may pay off. Yes all of us Canadians live in -60C temps 10 months of the year. Reality - there isn't that much difference between northern US and Southern Canada. It's unlikely that the higher efficiency will pay off. I've done the numbers several times in the past and even the higher gas prices today won't make a difference. Mike PS - lots of heat pumps up here. Hi, Here in Alberta, if NG price goes over 5.50 per Giga Joule, government makes up after that in the form of direct rebate. It is ~7.50 now. I still pay only 5.50. Isn't it nice?! |
#24
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
"George E. Cawthon" wrote: The more efficient furnace will likely be more noisy. ???? Based on what? I'm going to have to see some info to support that, many higher efficiency units have variable speed blowers that ramp to speed, reducing blower noise etc. Just don't install a Lennox Pulse if you're concerned with noise, we're not talking Atta-Boy's here! ;-) - Robert |
#25
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
CBhvac wrote: "George E. Cawthon" wrote in message ... ((snipped)) If you like your present furnace, forget it. The more efficient furnace will likely be more noisy. Doubt that. Installed correctly, sealed combustion units are all but silent upon fire. The blower makes more noise than the burners. My Amana is 80 percent (if you devide output by input rating) and it sure isn't quiet, so I guess it doesn't qualify as a sealed combustion. The burner is just about as loud as the blower. That's what I meant, the blower. Will probably be in operation more of the time. Total blower time should be longer and even if the blower operates at a lower speed and is quieter at that time much of the time, there is still noise that may be irritating. |
#26
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
American Mechanical wrote: "George E. Cawthon" wrote: The more efficient furnace will likely be more noisy. ???? Based on what? I'm going to have to see some info to support that, many higher efficiency units have variable speed blowers that ramp to speed, reducing blower noise etc. Just don't install a Lennox Pulse if you're concerned with noise, we're not talking Atta-Boy's here! ;-) - Robert Based on surmise. You are just considering loudness. I would expect the more efficient furnaces to run the blower more of the time, especially if they use multiple blower speeds. Just because the blower doesn't run at full speed doesn't mean the blower noise isn't irritating and that could be considered more noise, or noise more of the time. I prefer a house to be dead quiet but it seledom is due to the computer and refrigerator, let alone the furnace. |
#27
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message ... American Mechanical wrote: "George E. Cawthon" wrote: The more efficient furnace will likely be more noisy. ???? Based on what? I'm going to have to see some info to support that, many higher efficiency units have variable speed blowers that ramp to speed, reducing blower noise etc. Just don't install a Lennox Pulse if you're concerned with noise, we're not talking Atta-Boy's here! ;-) - Robert Based on surmise. You are just considering loudness. I would expect the more efficient furnaces to run the blower more of the time, especially if they use multiple blower speeds. Just because the blower doesn't run at full speed doesn't mean the blower noise isn't irritating and that could be considered more noise, or noise more of the time. I prefer a house to be dead quiet but it seledom is due to the computer and refrigerator, let alone the furnace. THen you definately don't want a Goodman either |
#28
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 07:42:40 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote: American Mechanical wrote: "George E. Cawthon" wrote: The more efficient furnace will likely be more noisy. ???? Based on what? I'm going to have to see some info to support that, many higher efficiency units have variable speed blowers that ramp to speed, reducing blower noise etc. Just don't install a Lennox Pulse if you're concerned with noise, we're not talking Atta-Boy's here! ;-) - Robert Based on surmise. You are just considering loudness. I would expect the more efficient furnaces to run the blower more of the time, especially if they use multiple blower speeds. Just because the blower doesn't run at full speed doesn't mean the blower noise isn't irritating and that could be considered more noise, or noise more of the time. I prefer a house to be dead quiet but it seledom is due to the computer and refrigerator, let alone the furnace. A small furnace noise observation: I was quite annoyed with my furnace for the first few months. Sometimes it seemed quiet but quite often there was a rather loud, slow, and pulsing resonant sound coming from it that could be heard through the entire house. At first i thought it was fan noise but strangely enough this would be louder up in the bedroom than when i stood downstairs by the furnace. I eventually just gave up and assumed our ducts were resonating somewhere in the wall. A few months after that we painted one living room wall and i was up on a ladder near the return air intake. It was a very wide vent (2 feet whereas all the others were 1 or 1.5 feet). Turns out it is the vent cover that was resonating. Not vibrating against the wall or the duct. But resonating itself. I stiffened it up with a piece of wood on the inside and now all is quiet. I have to stick my foot infront of a register to tell if the furnace is running. |
#29
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
No. Going from a ~80% efficient furnace to maybe a ~92% or 95%
furnace isn't going to make that much of a difference to you. |
#30
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
One of my 3 furnaces made a terrible rumble when it started up.
Couldn't figure it out until I was in the basement standing next to it when it started up and I saw the PVC exhaust pipe vibrating against the gas intake pipe just at startup. A sponge between the 2 solved that problem. |
#31
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message ... American Mechanical wrote: "George E. Cawthon" wrote: The more efficient furnace will likely be more noisy. ???? Based on what? I'm going to have to see some info to support that, many higher efficiency units have variable speed blowers that ramp to speed, reducing blower noise etc. Just don't install a Lennox Pulse if you're concerned with noise, we're not talking Atta-Boy's here! ;-) - Robert Based on surmise. You are just considering loudness. I would expect the more efficient furnaces to run the blower more of the time, especially if they use multiple blower speeds. And you would be correct. Most often, the blower may be set to run continuous at about 1/2 capacity allowing moe even comfort. Just because the blower doesn't run at full speed doesn't mean the blower noise isn't irritating and that could be considered more noise, or noise more of the time. True, but if the ductwork is sized and installed properly - *TaDa* quiet. I prefer a house to be dead quiet but it seledom is due to the computer and refrigerator, let alone the furnace. See above ductwork reference and take unit location into account when building. I understood your reference to indicate that you were advising the higher efficiency to be likely louder than the OP's almost new std. eff. That's just not normally the case, IMHO. Oh, and turn on a bit of music, it'll cover up that fridge & computer. ;-) - Robert |
#32
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
On 6-Jan-2004, "Art Begun" wrote:
I disagree. Latex paint on the siding will let the vapor breath. Not if the siding is aluminum, steel, vinyl etc. The cold air leaking in could cause condensation to form. Cold air is usually relatively dry and enters the cold side of the insulation - not much condensation. If there is condensation, having open air flow on that side allows it to dry. I know of designs where architects have specified an air gap at the top and bottom of the cladding to ensure the insulation can breathe on the outside. Both openings covered with fine mesh to keep out the mousies. Mike |
#33
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
I know for a fact that vinyl had weep holes built in. Don't have any
experience with metal siding but my guess is that it is designed the same way. Synthetic stucco is designed now to have a drainage system (in areas of the country that still allow its use). And I'm sure that some other construction designed by architects for a particular project might indeed have drainage at the bottom. But the instances of regular siding with a big gap at the bottom I've seen have been defects which allowed cold air and bugs to enter. In some cases you could see with an inspection mirror the gaps between sill plates. In my parents townhome, residents have had problems with frozen and burst pipes. I have no doubts that backer rod and caulking the gap would permanently fix the problem. It seems to me that in my area at least, foundations are being made slightly small and the sill plate and framing and sheathing overhang it slightly so the siding can overlap the foundation wall. "Michael Daly" wrote in message ble.rogers.com... On 6-Jan-2004, "Art Begun" wrote: I disagree. Latex paint on the siding will let the vapor breath. Not if the siding is aluminum, steel, vinyl etc. The cold air leaking in could cause condensation to form. Cold air is usually relatively dry and enters the cold side of the insulation - not much condensation. If there is condensation, having open air flow on that side allows it to dry. I know of designs where architects have specified an air gap at the top and bottom of the cladding to ensure the insulation can breathe on the outside. Both openings covered with fine mesh to keep out the mousies. Mike |
#34
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
kevins_news wrote: On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 07:42:40 GMT, "George E. Cawthon" wrote: American Mechanical wrote: "George E. Cawthon" wrote: The more efficient furnace will likely be more noisy. ???? Based on what? I'm going to have to see some info to support that, many higher efficiency units have variable speed blowers that ramp to speed, reducing blower noise etc. Just don't install a Lennox Pulse if you're concerned with noise, we're not talking Atta-Boy's here! ;-) - Robert Based on surmise. You are just considering loudness. I would expect the more efficient furnaces to run the blower more of the time, especially if they use multiple blower speeds. Just because the blower doesn't run at full speed doesn't mean the blower noise isn't irritating and that could be considered more noise, or noise more of the time. I prefer a house to be dead quiet but it seledom is due to the computer and refrigerator, let alone the furnace. A small furnace noise observation: I was quite annoyed with my furnace for the first few months. Sometimes it seemed quiet but quite often there was a rather loud, slow, and pulsing resonant sound coming from it that could be heard through the entire house. At first i thought it was fan noise but strangely enough this would be louder up in the bedroom than when i stood downstairs by the furnace. I eventually just gave up and assumed our ducts were resonating somewhere in the wall. A few months after that we painted one living room wall and i was up on a ladder near the return air intake. It was a very wide vent (2 feet whereas all the others were 1 or 1.5 feet). Turns out it is the vent cover that was resonating. Not vibrating against the wall or the duct. But resonating itself. I stiffened it up with a piece of wood on the inside and now all is quiet. I have to stick my foot infront of a register to tell if the furnace is running. My furnace had a very specific annoying sound to it (among all the others noises). It was the flue (exhaust stack) resonating. I put pressure on it and most of the resonance stopped, so I wedged a 3" can between it and the wall. The can provide just the right amount of pressure and prevents heat transfer to the wall. Burner and fan noise is still there but at least that part of the noise virtually disappeared. |
#35
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
Childfree Scott wrote: No. Going from a ~80% efficient furnace to maybe a ~92% or 95% furnace isn't going to make that much of a difference to you. If the efficency are accurage a 95 percent would result in about 16 percent saving, so if your normal bill is $200, you would save $32 dollars per month for ?6 months? or about $200 per year. Pretty slow pay back. And then you have to figure the mainteance. Is the mainteance for 95 percent furnaces higher than for 80 percent furnaces? |
#36
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
American Mechanical wrote: "George E. Cawthon" wrote in message ... American Mechanical wrote: "George E. Cawthon" wrote: The more efficient furnace will likely be more noisy. ???? Based on what? I'm going to have to see some info to support that, many higher efficiency units have variable speed blowers that ramp to speed, reducing blower noise etc. Just don't install a Lennox Pulse if you're concerned with noise, we're not talking Atta-Boy's here! ;-) - Robert Based on surmise. You are just considering loudness. I would expect the more efficient furnaces to run the blower more of the time, especially if they use multiple blower speeds. And you would be correct. Most often, the blower may be set to run continuous at about 1/2 capacity allowing moe even comfort. Just because the blower doesn't run at full speed doesn't mean the blower noise isn't irritating and that could be considered more noise, or noise more of the time. True, but if the ductwork is sized and installed properly - *TaDa* quiet. I prefer a house to be dead quiet but it seledom is due to the computer and refrigerator, let alone the furnace. See above ductwork reference and take unit location into account when building. I understood your reference to indicate that you were advising the higher efficiency to be likely louder than the OP's almost new std. eff. That's just not normally the case, IMHO. Oh, and turn on a bit of music, it'll cover up that fridge & computer. ;-) - Robert Maybe you are thinking of furnaces out in the garage, but ours is in the center of the house it an enclosure, hate to call it a closet. No way is it quiet, or would be quiet regardless of type. Hell, I can hear the hum of the attic fan in certain parts of the house. Music helps but I grew learning to read and study when it was quiet so I'm likely to start listening to the music instead of paying attention to what I am reading. Nothing like reading 2-3 pages then suddenly realize you were listening to the music and have no idea what the word in book were. |
#37
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
Steve Scott wrote: On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 03:59:09 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote: Here in Alberta, if NG price goes over 5.50 per Giga Joule, government makes up after that in the form of direct rebate. It is ~7.50 now. I still pay only 5.50. Isn't it nice?! And just exactly where do the government come up with the extra $2.00 per Giga Joule? -- Is 'tired old cliche' one? Probably from the U.S. Canada and the U.S. have a Columbia River treaty and several other agreements about operation of the large reservoirs on the upper Columbia River in B.C. These reservoirs and their operaton provide benefits to the U.S. hydropower generation. The agreements are fairly complex but including paying Canada for the storage benefits to U.S. power generation at Grand Coulee, Chief Joseph, and other dams/powerplants in the U.S. When the reservoir and powerplants were first constructed, Canada wanted flood control but didn't need all of the power, so excess generation was sold to the U.S. as part of agreements. |
#38
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
"George E. Cawthon" wrote: Maybe you are thinking of furnaces out in the garage, but ours is in the center of the house it an enclosure, hate to call it a closet. No way is it quiet, or would be quiet regardless of type. Hell, I can hear the hum of the attic fan in certain parts of the house. I'm sorry - you are incorrect. If the ductwork is sized properly and installed well you would be amazed. I changed out a unit today, it was in a closet directly off the living room. When I started the unit up, the HO argued with me that it wasn't on. He is extremely pleased with his new variable speed. It sounds as if you need to determine why you have to wedge cans against parts of your system to stop the noise. I'm guessing there are install issues. Best of luck to you it's been fun but if you still insist that higher efficiency units are likely to be louder than standard efficiency units, we must agree to disagree. - Robert Music helps but I grew learning to read and study when it was quiet so I'm likely to start listening to the music instead of paying attention to what I am reading. Nothing like reading 2-3 pages then suddenly realize you were listening to the music and have no idea what the word in book were. |
#39
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
On 7-Jan-2004, "George E. Cawthon" wrote:
Probably from the U.S. Canada and the U.S. have a Columbia River treaty and several other agreements about operation of the large reservoirs on the upper Columbia River in B.C. BC gets the benefits and this subsidizes Albertans? You don't know much about Canadian politics! :-) More likely, the Albertan subsidies come from oil sales. Mike |
#40
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Is it worth upgrading to High Efficiency furnace?
BC gets the benefits and this subsidizes Albertans? You don't know much about Canadian politics! :-) More likely, the Albertan subsidies come from oil sales. In BC, electricity is now cheaper than gas for heating, especially if you zone heat. |
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